[Ansteorra] Non-Member Surcharge vs. Member Discount

[Donnchadh Beag mac Griogair]

Thank you for the factual and informative reply.  I had indeed not 
looked too much at the children's rates which do tend to complicate 
things more.  Given that NMS also has a quirky set of rules of when it's 
applied, I think we'd be better off just listing the separate prices and 
be done with it.  Forget about referencing a surcharge or discount to 
our customers.  I really don't care what we call it on the backend, but 
the only people who need to worry about that are the treasurers who are 
writing up the report and sending off the NMS check.  I also think we 
should offer memberships at the door, maybe at a separate table and let 
people get the discount right then.  It catches people when they are 
thinking about it, and it gives them an incentive to do it right then.  
Have pre-addressed and stamped envelopes ready to go that the head of 
gate just has to drop in the mail.

For example:
Non-member Adults 18+  $15
Member Adults 18+  $10
Teens 13 - 17  $9
Youth  6 - 12  $5
Children 5 and under  Free

Donnchadh

On 2/19/2010 12:22 PM, Jay Rudin wrote:
> Donnchadh wrote:
>
>    
>> I really fail to see the difference between a non-member surcharge, and
>> a member discount.  Either way, it's $5 I don't have to pay if I'm a
>> member, or that I do have to pay if I'm a non-member.
>>      
> Only for certain members.  It is $5 you don't have to pay if you are an adult member or a minor member paying full price.  If you are a minor paying a smaller price, either members don't get the members discount, or non-members also get it.
>
> If it were a member's discount, we could charge $3 for non-members, which would let the members in free.  We cannot do that.  If it were a members discount, it would be only for members who are adult or paying full price.  If it were a members discount, it would be possible to charge non-member teens $1 less than non-member adults.
>
> The only way to make it a members discount is to make it a members discount, combined with a rule that site fees are always at least $5.01, combined with denying the members discount to some members, combined with a requirement that if children pay less than full price, they must pay at least $5.01 less.
>
> That's not a members discount -- it's a hodgepodge of ridiculous rules intended to hide a perfectly straightforward surcharge for adult and full-price participants.
>
>    
>> The only difference I see is a matter of semantics in the
>> same vein as a glass that is half empty or half full.
>> There's the same amount of liquid either way
>>      
> It is the same ***only*** for adults and full price kids.  It is different for minors who pay less, and it adds meaningless requirements to the site fees.  (They must be at least $5.01, for instance.)
>
> Consider the following fee structure:
> Adults, $10
> Children $8
>
> That can be written as a "members discount" only by saying:
> Adults $15
> Member adults $10
> Member and non-member children $8
>
> This is not a members discount.  A members discount is available for all members.
>
>    
>> As to why it makes a difference to me is purely a matter of perception
>> to our new members who are just trying us out.  One phrasing has more
>> positive connotations, the other has more negative connotations.  Given
>> that the same money is collected, the same way, from the same people.  I
>> would prefer to use a phrase that may be more welcoming to new people.
>>      
> If it were purely a matter of perception, I might agree with you.  But while it's the same for adult members, it isn't the same for minor members.  You can't se ethe difference at the gate, but a parent with three children can.
>
> It is not a member discount unless all members can have it.
>
> When I buy tickets at Ticketmaster, there's a surcharge.  It has nothing to do with putting on a concert.  I'm well aware that the ticket price goes to the people throwing a concert, and the surcharge goes to Ticketmaster.  If somebody else buys a discount ticket, my large ticket price and their small ticket price goes to the people throwing a concert, and the surcharge goes to Ticketmaster.
>
> A members discount would change the amount the barony (province, shire, etc.) gets.  A surcharge doesn't -- it's an administrative charge thrown on top, that goes somewhere else.
>
> And finally, if we had a members discount, I might refuse it, and pay the same amount as other people, since I use as much land and other event resources as other people.  But the surcharge isn't aprt of the site fee, and has nothing to do with helping put on the event.
>
> It has negative connotations because it's a negative thing to do.
>
>    
>> The question can also be asked, what harm is there calling it a member
>> discount?  I don't have to like NMS (in fact I don't), but since I can't
>> avoid it, I would still rather use the most inviting terminology I can
>> towards newcomers.
>>      
> Calling it a member discount is indeed more inviting.  Calling it a chocolate pie is even more inviting.  But it doesn't fit the facts.
>
> If it were a member discount, we could do this:
> Adults $15
> Member adults $10
> Children $13
> Member children $8
>
> We cannot do that, so it's not a member discount.
>
> If it were a member discount, we could do this:
> Site Fee $4
> Members free
>
> We cannot do that, so it isn't a member discount.
>
> We can have a free event, but if we charge members even one cent, we have to charge non-members at least $5.01.  That's not a member discount, and all the hand-waving and desire to use inviting terminology won't make it one.
>
> Some fee structures are possible under a member discount; others are possible under a surchage.  We can do the ones available under a surcharge, but we cannot do the ones available under a member discount.  You cannot see this at the gate, because the fee structure is already determined, and for obvious reasons, it's a fee structure that is compatible with a surcharge.
>
> If it turned into a members discount, what we could do with our fee structure would change.
>
> It's not a discount.  It really isn't.  Surcharegs and discounts are different financial transactions, with superficially similar results but actually different ones.
>
> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>
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