Heraldry

[Aodhan Ite an Fhithich]

Dia duit!

 [Replying to a message of R.Michael Litchfield to All]

 >>> Do we REALLY need to get  into yet annother interminable
 >> authenticity debate? >
 >> 
 >> No, we do not need another debate. Authenticity is but one part of
 >> the game that is the S.C.A., one you have no interest in or talent
 >> at, obviously.

 RL> On the contrary, I feel that authenticity has its place. But I find
 RL> that in many
 RL> areas, especially those related to individual expression, that a more
 RL> modern, enlightened view is more useful and more appropriate.

But, what does a modern, enlightened view have to do with the Middle Ages and
Rennaissance?  Those are the time frame we are recreating, aren't they?

 >>> If all they did was register arms with no regard for
 >>> "periodness" that would be one thing, but they don't.
 >> 
 >> "If all they did was register arms with no regard for periodness..."
 >> My, wouldn't it be nice to see "taz" and "micky" and "terminator" and
 >> "pizza" and "M-16's" and "Ford Mustangs" and...well, you might get my
 >> drift here. Your statement is absurd and you obviously don't realize
 >> that the College of Arms has, and does, register many items that
 >> contain "non-period" charges and treatments.

 RL> Period charges and styles should of course be encouraged, as we
 RL> encourage
 RL> period  dress, food, fighting, etc. But why should you be the ultimate
 RL> arbiters of
 RL> what someone may register? You already do allow the registration of a
 RL> number
 RL> of non-period charges (and have since the inception of the college of
 RL> heraldry.

We become the arbiters because we are the ones who have at least attempted to
determine what period heraldry was and looked like.  Just as those who bother
to judge at Arts and Sciences competitions become the de facto arbiters of
period craft.   People who get up and *do* something instead of sit back and
whine have far more impact.

As for use of non-period charges, we are allowing it far less than we did in
the past, as we know a lot more about period heraldry than we did in the past.
 It's called learning.  We are not obligated to repeat our past mistakes.

 RL> Yes, some people proably would want to register silly arms, but some
 RL> people
 RL> will do silly things regardless and there is nothing you can do to
 RL> stop
 RL> them really, why make them suffer the insults and hassle that you do?

Because negative reinforcement is a vital part of the learning experience.

 >> We, in the S.C.A. and in the College of
 >> Heralds, ARE trying to re- create a period feel in the Society.

 RL> But why is it that YOU get to decide if somehting has enogh of a
 RL> period
 RL> feel, certainly other people coould find somethign to have a period
 RL> feel at
 RL> different levels of authenticity.

Again, because we *bother* to by being active in the Colleges of Heralds and
College of Arms.  It's in our charter.  Just as the Knights get to decide what
(non-)period fighting techniques will be encouraged, just as the Crowns decide
what level of (non-)period performance in the SCA will be rewarded.  Because
they have been given the authority and becuase they choose to excercise that
authority, correctly or no.

 >> We do try to "shoot down" every device presented,

 RL> and spend damn little time trying to help people get what they want
 RL> passed.

Kief has not expressed himself well here.  We try very hard to find conflict,
not to shoot down someone's submission, but because if we in the CoH don't
find a conflict that exists, someone in the CoA will.  But that will be
several months later and thus it will take the client that much longer to get
armory registered.  When we find conflict, or armory that's just not quite
period style, we try very hard to suggest to the client ways to clear the
conflict (without introducing another) or modify the armory to bit more
in-line with period styles.

 >> mainly because we do not want
 >> our client's (submitter's) time to be wasted in submitting a device
 >> that cannot be registered under the current rules.

 RL> So lets change the rules, change submission guidlines to accept a MUCH
 RL> greater degree of freedom, still encourage period heraldry but do not
 RL> REQUIRE it.

We just did make such a change.  99+% of mundane heraldry has been declared to
be no longer subject to conflict checking.  The list of mundane armory deemed
"important" enough to protect against conflict in the SCA is very short; I
just did a grep against the online armorial (which has these included) and got
348 hits.

And, in my opinion, more areas of the SCA should require the minor degree of
authenticity we attempt to achieve for armory.

 >> We also do our very
 >> best to find a way for the submitter to have what they want within
 >> the current practices and guidelines of the Rules for Submission. I,
 >> and other heralds, have spent countless hours assisting our clients
 >> in researching, documenting, and designing armory and names that will
 >> serve them well in the S.C.A..

 RL> You help them do things which will serve you needs in the society, but
 RL> do
 RL> you really spend that much time trying to find out what thier needs
 RL> actually are?
 RL> Have you ever encountered someone who just will not be happy with arms
 RL> which
 RL> could pass? Who require something from the game that you don't want to
 RL> give?

If their needs do not include armory in the style of period armory, then their
needs (in that area, at least) are not in line with the stated goals and
purposes of the SCA.  They should modify their goals to fit within the context
of the SCA's game or seek another game.  Just because *I* want to move my
rooks with a knight's jump does not imply that the USCF for FIDE should let me
do so in one of their sanctioned events.

 >>> And dance developed as a socially acceptable way of demonstrating your
 >>> fitness to mate, it moved beyond that to a method of personal
 >>> expression,
 >>> why can't
 >>> heraldry do the same?
 >> 
 >> Simply, heraldry very much is, nowadays, a method of personal
 >> expression.

 RL> But you as a herald become an arbiter of the persons freedom of
 RL> expression.
 RL> you delineate and area of allowable expression and then slam the gate
 RL> down.

No.  **HISTORY** has already delineated the area of allowable expression for
the art style known as Medieval Heraldry.  We merely act as translators.

 RL> Which is why I have long advocated that people find arms they like,
 RL> that
 RL> they want, that is important to them. If they can register it
 RL> wonderful, if
 RL> they can make minor changes wich make it more period without losing
 RL> anything essential fantastic. But if they can't don't bother trying to
 RL> register, it is not worth the hassle & insult the heralds give you.

 >> -Kief

 RL> -mcihael

Is learning to hold and move your shield not worth the effort it takes to not
be hit?  Is it not worth the insult of being taken out in the first ten
seconds of every bout?  Is learning to walk not worth the pain of falling down
time after time after time.  Learning is not an easy, painless task.  If it
were, it would have little value.

There are far too many people playing in the SCA who have absolutely no
inclination to learn the least little bit of Medieval or Rennaissance history.
 They just want to dress weird, swill booze, and chase after bed partners. 
Frankly, I wish they'd all just move along to SF Fandom.

Feicfidh me' ari's thu',

Aodhan
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Baron Aodhan Ite an Fhithich    aodhan at dobharchu.org
Master of the Laurel            Lough na Dobharchu' BBS  1-713-338-2570
Dobharchu' Herald               "Your Information Roman Road"
mka David H. Brummel            1:106/22  180:11/22  762:2200/2
SCA Member 02245                Barony of Loch Soilleir, Ansteorra
http://www.phoenix.net/~dbrummel
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plummety sable and argent on a sun of eight rays or a feather bendwise
sinister sable
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No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. - Blake
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 RL> -!-
 RL>  ! Origin: Lough na Dobharchu' BBS <-> Internet Gateway (1:106/22.17)

Bye, Aodhan!