Heraldry

[Leslie Miller]

>  LM> Isn't it Duke Lloyd who has a diamondback rattlesnake as part of his
>  LM> device?   And somebody has a scorpion...and the Barony of Eldern
>  LM> Hills has a  buffalo as part of theirs... Duchess Rowan has a polar
>  LM> bear... So Western  hmispheric critters* seem to be widely
>  LM> acceptable and frequently  used.  (I'm assuming that you're talking
>  LM> heraldry here, and not  actual people.)
> 
> Re: rattlesnakes and buffalo (specifically the American Bison).  Vasquez de
> Coronado explored New Mexico and Arizona in 1540 (New York Library Desk
> Reference, 2nd. ed., p. 880) and would have encoutnered *many* rattlesnakes
> and bufalo, so they were not *unknown* to Europeans in period

I am well aware of that, thank you.  I said nothing in my post aout 
"knowing" or not "knowing" about the existance of something.  (I 
was not aware that New Zealand was not discovered until so much 
later.)

>, however I
> doubt they would have considered them for use in their armory within period. 
> There were buffalo (water buffalo) known to Europeans. 

But water buffalo do not look like American buffalo, and the buffalo 
depicted on the Barony of Eldern Hills' banners look like American 
buffalo.  Is this artistic licence?

> In the specific case
> of Duke Lloyd'sarms, these were registered in 1980; we are not obligated to
> repeat past mistakes.

Ah, so they'd no longer be allowed?  This is information I did not 
know, and I thank you for providing it.

> Re: scorpions.  Every hear of the Zodiacal Constellation Scorpius?

Yes, I have.

>  So named
> by the Greeks because of its obvious resemblance to a scorpion?  If scorpions
> are not actually indigenous to Euroe, the Crusaders certainly became fatally
> familiar with them.

The key here is "not actually indigenou to Europe."

> Re: polar bears.  Ever hear of the Rus or the Vikings??

Yes, amazingly enough, I have.  In fact, I have done extensive research 
in Viking history, and actually attended graduate school for a 
stint at UC Berkeley in the Scandinavian languages and literature 
department studying Old Norse.

>guess which bear they were most likely to run across.

Uh?  Brown bears?  :-)

The post I was responding to mentioned "non-continental" charges.  I 
was giving examples of "non-continental" charges, admttedly off the top of 
my head.  I also thought about adding somebody's dancing camel (one 
of Mooneschadowe's former Queens of Grace and wisdom), but decided I 
already had enough examples and couldn't remember to whom they 
belonged.  Polar bears are not indigenous to what most people 
think of as "continental Europe".  Personally, those areas in Norway, 
Sweden and Finland above the artic circle do not immediately spring 
to _my_ mind when the phrase is used, though the technicalities 
could be argued.

  LM> I think I've seen  actual period
>  LM> arms that had supporters which were Native Americans  holding spears
>  LM> (when I was in Denmark, perhaps), so they  might go for your Maori
>  LM> king. 
> 
> What you probably saw was a "savage" or a "wild man".

I seem to remember that they had  head-bands with a feathers sticking 
out, because I remember thinking "wow, those are North American 
Indians!". Wild men figure prominently as supporters in Danish 
Heraldry, but these were different.  However, my emory has been 
known to be faulty before, so I may be wrong.  They may also have 
been non-period;  the museum I saw them in was not limited to 
pieces from the Middle Ages.

>  LM> I mainly just wanted to point out  that non-continental
>  LM> animals are used fairly often in SCA heraldry.
> 
> Two citations do not constitute a trend.

Well, I humbly apologize for providing misleading information, then.  
It seemed like several examples sprang immediately to mind, 
attached to people and places of prominace, so that I incorrectly 
assumed that it was acceptable.  For the benefit of the original 
poster I thank you for so politely revealing my ignorance.

HL Gunhilda
Shire of Mooneschadowe
miller at pp.okstate.edu



Leslie Miller                    
Environmental Health and Safety
(405) 744-7241
miller at pp.okstate.edu     

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"Not what the stars have done, but what they are to do, is what 
detains the sky."  - Emily Dickinson
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