A couple more questions on war
kmv at abm.austin.tx.us
Thu Jul 20 06:25:03 PDT 1995
> <Duncan<kmv at abm.austin.tx.us (Kevin Varner)>>
> >On a slightly different note regarding drums on the field and "good D&C".
> >Drums early on tended to be used as signaling devices rather than
> >cadence setters. A flurry of drum to get sub-commanders attention
> >and signal flags used to send the orders. The concept of "wide scale
> >D&C" as we know it in European armies come about after 1700.
> Hmm. Not to sound arguementative, but can you document that?
> Certainly. I'll grant that their use is late in period, perhaps even so
> much as post-1500, but certainly not 1700.
> My evidence is fairly simple, it's true. With it I shall try and establish
> that *some* armies in "Period" (600-1600) were in fact using "Large Scale
> D&C"; as well as make a clear suggestion that Drums might have had a part
> in maintaining what we today would refer to as a cadence for troop movement.
> 1. Hale, John R. The Art of War and Renaissance England, 1961.
> Facing page 36 is a reprint of the Frontispiece for Niccolo
> Machiavelli's The Art of War, translated into English in 1560,
> showing a drummer as one of the supporters of the title.
> 2. Ibid. Page 42 discusses the French attempts to begin using units
> based on the "Roman" system, and on the facing page is a reprint of
> a page from Raimond de Beccarie de Pavie, Sieur de Fourquevaux,
> Instructions for the Wars, trans. Paul Ive, 1589; showing a unit
> in a complex formation. True no drummers are mentioned are shown,
> but I'm more concerned about the formation in this case.
> 3. Ibid. Facing page 48 is a picture reprinted from Thomas Styward,
> The Pathway to Martial Discipline. 1581, clearly diagraming the
> author's "ideal" unit formation. In the center are two ranks of
> Fife and Drummer, one ahead of the captains, sergeants and surgeons,
> the other behind.
> 4. Machiavelli, Nicolo. The Art of War. (First published in Italian, 1521)
> Book 2, [physical training for soldiers] "third, he must learn to
> keep his proper place, both in marching, in fighting and encamping."
> 5. Ibid. Book 2 [Forms of the solid double square; a second method for
> forming the solid double square] "... the Constable with the color
> bearer and the musician stand in the space between the five ranks of
> pikemen and the fifteen of shieldmen..." (as well as a description of
> some fairly nice, simple battalion scale D&C).
> 6. Ibid. Book 2 [Military Music] "When well handled, this music
> regulates the army, which by moving in paces that corresponds to its
> beats, easily keeps in rank. Thence it is that the ancients had
> whistles and fifes... But today military music generally yeilds
> no other benefit than the making of a noise" (Hey, I'm at least
> honest in my evidence :); however: )
> 6. OED, 2d Ed. "Drummer"...1. One who beats a drum for public or
> military purposes; one who plays the drum in a band....
> 1573/80 Baret, Avl. D 1309 "A drummer or plaier on the drumme"
> 1580 Nottingham rec. IV 196 "Payed to the drummer, xvj d."
> 1593 Shakespeare, 3 Henry VI, iv vii 50 "Drummer strike vp,
> and let us march away."
> "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
> Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
> -- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
> (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
You have tweaked my interest. It looks like I have some research
to do. Unfortunately my library is not as accessible as yours apparently
is considering the rapidness of your response :). I have to go home and
look things up. I suggest we table this one for now. I have a couple of
friends who are also very interested in the subject. Who knows - "There
might be a paper in it!"
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