Awards and Coronets
pug at arlut.utexas.edu
Mon Mar 27 05:57:44 PST 1995
I'm gonna preface this with the fact that this argument is how I think
things should happen. I have problems with part of it since I am not a
mind reader and unable to truly tell someone else's desires. As well,
desire of a title with that as your one driving goal is what I am
talking about. I am not talking about just wanting to have the award.
>> I do think it's bad depending on the award you desire to achieve.
> I'd like you to elaborate on that. Are you speaking of peerages, or
> something else?
Mostly I am talking about peerage level awards and the steps towards
them. An AoA is trivial to wish to desire since it's just a recognition
that you are productive in the Society. (IMHO)
>> I think the
>> attributes that the peers are supposed to respresent are wonderful
>> traits, and peple should strive towards those, not towards the title.
>> Whether you get recognized for these attributes should be irrealevant.
> OK, here's where I may disagree, depending on how you look at it.
I tend to disagree with parts of this. Then again, I am hoping for the
ideal in my terms, which I agree are not how this should be implemented.
Mainly because there is no way I or anyone else can truly know what
someone's motivations are.
> Hmmmm, how do I say this?
Very well actually.
> let's get back to motivation. Truth is, there are some people out there
> who will not be motivated towardsthe goal except for the thought of
> the recognition which follows.
If someone just needs the pat on the back, I don't think they should
work this hard. If they are needing to be admired as the embodyment of
the title, I find it sad, but they should have to show the ideals
associated with it. If they can, then they should be able to have the
> I have watched worthy individuals
> give their hearts and souls to the SCA in pursuit of these
> attributes. They "become" peers, but don't get the recognition. And
> they suffer because of it.
I am afraid I am lost here. Do they actually recieve a peerage or not? I
honestly think that if they strive to be the ideal of a peerage, it
won't matter to them if they get the title associated with it.
> Now, if *wanting* the title is automatic
> disqualification for the title, I can understand why this happens.
> You want to be a knight, not just "knightly", so obviously you're not
> worthy of being a knight.
This is true if you consider humility to be a "knightly" state of being.
> Is this how it works?
I would truly doubt it.
> Is this how it
> *sould* work?
I honestly think so. We have the problem again, of truly knowing
anothers motivations. I can outwardly appear in a number of different
manners despite what my internal feelings are on the matter. Any half
way decent actor can fool a good number of people.
Implementation would be a true pain.
> However, if pursuit of the attributes is all that matters, then the
> Order of the Centurion of the Sable Star should never have been created.
Yes they should. And they do exactly what they were meant to do,
Continue people striving towards the goals that they already are. People
are still human and need encouraging towards their ideal. This doesn't
mean they should desire the award itself.
> All it does is encourage people with another "cookie", to encourage them
> to keep fighting even though they may never be knighted. If the
> *title* of knight is not to be coveted in the first place, why bother?
> Is that why there is so much cntroversy surrounding the order?
I have no idea what controversy is around the order, so I can't comment
> I personally
> think we needed something like it... to motivate people to continue
So do I.
> If you couldn't already tell, I'm very keen on keeping people happy and
> active, which is why I think it may be a bad idea to
> withhold recognition just because an individual desires it.
Should there then be a title for those people who truly show most of the
desired stuff of the different areas? Is this what the Centurion does?
Says, "Yeah, you're good, but you just don't quite have it." Should this
be given to those who are good enough fighters to be knights, but don't
have all the chivalry associated with knighthood? Should the top level
be the same as any other ring or the actual embodyment of the ideals?
> Is it
> beneficial to the Society to lose someone (to bitter disappointment
> and heartbreak) who does the work of a Pelican, just because the person
> wants to be recognised _as a Pelican_? Seriosly?!
Of course not. I don't think someone who works that hard towards it
could honestly just want to be recognised as a Pelican. This could of
course be my silly idealisms though.
> Ideally, perhaps, but again, this won't motivate all people.
I think that is what the awards should do. Motivate people. They should
be slaps on the back saying, you're doing good and on your way. You
still have something to work on, but keep trying.
This is different from saying, yeah, you've been around long enough.
Here it is.
> the ladder is a challenge for some, and when they get to the top,
> they want to shout and let the worl see what they have
*shrug* I don't know what to do about people who want to just climb a
ladder. Cause even if you created a ladder just for these people, they
would want to climb one of the others.
> Why slap them for shouting instead of holding it quietly
> in their hearts? Unless holding it quietly in your heart is
> actually one of the aspects of being a peer, and if it is, then the
> circles keep it pretty quiet,
I honestly don't know about this. I think the pomp and show around
peerage is plenty shouting. If this isn't enough for someone, I honestly
don't know what would be.
>> I don't think that someone should
>> be denyed something if they truly earned it, but I also think that the
>> further up the "ladder" you go, it should be more evident that you have
>> the correctdesires in your heart.
> I agree with this wholeheartedly. I just think we may disagree
> on the definition of "correct desires". I don't think a
> desire for recognition is *necessarily* a bad thing,
I think that if that is your one driving goal, it probably is a bad
> but that's
> probably just a result of a different personality style (as well as
> making *room* for different personality styles).
That is what is great about the SCA.
> I have more problems with people who *expect* to get an award, than
> with people who *desire* to receive one. But that's another story.
I think this is just wrong, and as long as they expect it, they
shouldn't be allowed it period. *shrug*
Phelim Uhtred Gervase | "I want to be called COTTONTIPS. There is something
Barony of Bryn Gwlad | graceful about that lady. A young woman bursting with
House Flaming Dog | vigor. She blinked at the sudden light. She writes
pug at arlut.utexas.edu | beautiful poems. When ever shall we meet again?"
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