stddly at SHSU.edu
stddly at SHSU.edu
Mon Oct 7 13:57:51 PDT 1996
From: MX%"bryn-gwlad at eden.com" 7-OCT-1996 14:38:15.27
To: MX%"bryn-gwlad at eden.com"
Subj: Re: From the Seneschale
Return-Path: <owner-bryn-gwlad at eden.com>
Received: from natashya.eden.com by Niord.shsu.edu (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP;
Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:38:13 CST
Received: (majordom at localhost) by natashya.eden.com (8.8.0/8.8.1) id OAA15230
for bryn-gwlad-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:34:28 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from Niord.shsu.edu (niord.shsu.edu [22.214.171.124]) by
natashya.eden.com (8.8.0/8.8.1) with SMTP id OAA15224 for
<bryn-gwlad at eden.com>; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:34:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: stddly at shsu.edu
Received: by SHSU.edu (MX V4.1 AXP) id 1454; Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:34:14 CST
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:34:14 CST
To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Message-ID: <009A97E5.1354E6DF.1454 at SHSU.edu>
Subject: Re: From the Seneschale
Sender: owner-bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Reply-To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Greetings all concerned Ansteorrans!
Sir Kief here... Numbers to follow in the body of this missive...
>>You have stated this a number of times, Jeremy, and I would like to see you
>>back it up with numbers. As far as I know, there are several kingdoms with
>>no principalities, and Meridies has only a named region. In addition, other
>>than Atenveldt, those kingdoms with principalities are basically splitting
>>off a region or two, not subdividing the whole kingdom.
>Okay, Ive reallllly tried. Until now, Ive not said word one on this subject.
>I feel it necessary to point out that our good Baron may owe you thanks;
>when you asked for numbers, Gwenllian, you _cannot_ simply exlude a Kingdom.
>The "numbers" you have asked His Excellency for you have as much as provided
>yourself. Lemmmeee s'plain...
I will give everyone 'numbers" to chew on...
Atenveldt is a perfect working model of the type of infrastructure a well
run principality system can look like. Had you looked at Artemisia (the
northern principality of Atenveldt) 10 years ago, you might have said many
of the same things that are currently being said about, say, our proposed
western or northern principalities:"...never have a high enough population
to support a kingdom...", "...on the brink of failing membership
requirements...", "...<place almost every 'con' point that has been made
about this issue here>...".
Many years ago Ansteorran "split" from Atenveldt. Personally, I do not hold
Atenveldt to be a perfect anything. To emulate their "perfect working model" is
to throw futility after folly. At this time the "current woking model" of the
proposed principality would split the "Western Region" and add to the Northern
Region". By doing so the "Northern Region" would then have a larger population
base and the potential for advancement beyond principality status after several
As to the "failing membership requirements" _Many_ of the groups in this
Kingdom are, at best, marginal. Several Baronies are at minimum strength, many
Shires are at minimum strength, many Cantons and Colleges are at minimum
strength. Ours _is NOT_ a healthy Kingdom! We have not yet recovered from the
BoD debacle in terms of membership numbers. (We "lost" a total of 750+
memberships in that one year!)
>Along comes the Principality of Artemesia.
>Kingdom officers are relieved of many of their most arduous (as well as
>potentially costly- "hello, lord Q of Boseman, MT, this is lady X in
>Phoenix, AZ"- duties. This defers many resposibilities to principality
>officers and gives them a sense of importance and worth. It brings prestige
>and pride to those offices.
Excuse me... Our Kingdom officers have _already_ been relieved of most of their
"arduous (as well as potentially costly-..." duties. The REGIONAL officer
system (the exact same structure as a principality officer system) was put in
place several years ago to do just that...relieve the Kingdom officers. As
well, the imposition of principality officers would have _exactly no effect_ on
the current duty level of the Kingdom officers. The "prestige and pride" effect
is nil... The current Regional officers have seperate listings in the _Black
Star_, they have important decision making status, and are recognized by the
populace as having the same importance and worth as other Kingdom level
>Artemesia- which already has a culture of its own- defines its culture
>further, creating wondrous variety in the Kingdom. Keep in mind how much we
>learn when we go to Wars... thats because those people from other places do
>things differently than we do. Variety is an exponential multiplier in
>relation to coming up with new ideas on the artistic, martial, and
Show me please, the "different culture" argument as it applies to the groups or
regions in this Kingdom? We learn from peoples in different _Kingdoms_... Our
whole Kingdom from the smallest group up to the Kingdom it's self is already
diverse... Every group has early, middle, and late period players. The biggest
"division", if one can call it that, is the difference between the die-hard
"heavies" v. "light" camps...
Folks...this principality "thing" is being forced on us from the _top_ down.
Not from the "bottom" up... Whose "hidden agendas" is forcing this on us...
>Artemesians develop great pride about being *both* members of their
>principality, as well as being from the Kingdom of Atenveldt. Doubt me? Ask
>em. But I should probably warn ya that ive got the inside track- I lived there.
I am proud of being a member of the Barony of Raven's Fort. I am proud to be an
ANSTEORRAN. I do not need nor want to have to divide my loyality or pride any
further... Principalities are just flat _wrong_ for this Kingdom at this time.
>Further avenues of- I dread using this term- 'sca career progression' are
>opened up to the members of the principality. The coronet and the
>principality offices are each obvious evidence of this.
The only "sca career progression" that would be open up would be for the
addition of 12 new "hats" each year... The officers are already on track in
their service career... Besides if we went from 5 Regions to 3 principalities
we would _LOSE_ opportunities for people to serve Ansteorra as officers... The
math is quite simple...
>With the support of the southern principality and the new vigor that these
>factors produce in the populus, the principality grew both in membership and
>in other intangible ways- (Sir Lyonel, I think you might best cover this
>area) Artemesia became a proud place with a strong membership despite the
>low population density.
I agree with you on the fact that Artemesia was, and is, a proud place.
However, given the _fact_ that Artiemsia was "dumped" in a political deal as
the Outlands became a Kingdom. And the fact that the "important business" of
the Kingdom of Atenveldt is decided in Arizonia. Artemisia had _no choice_ but
to become a Principality and now to vie for Kingdom status...
We have a _choice_! This is no "done deal" like many at the Baronial and
Kingdom level would have us believe... DO NOT BE DUPED! This whole thing is
politically motivated... It is not the will nor the desire of the populace.
Write Their Royal Majesties and tell them NO! Please include your name(s),
where you live, address, and membership number!!!
>In short, the situation in Atenveldt is a _perfect_ model for us. Its
>demographically similar (look at our 'west' and everything in their Kingdom
>north of Salt Lake and deny it- go ahead, I dare ya), geographically similar
>(drive from Phoenix to Billings and suddenly Austin to Ammarillo doesnt seem
>so bad), and politically similar (yes, other Kingdoms have 'camps' too).
I'm sorry... Nothing in Atenveldt is a "..._perfect_ model..." for us. The
drive from anywhere to anywhere in Ansteorra is "that bad" This Kingdom is
exactly the same size that it's always been... It's up to the people to get out
and travel or not. The "principality thig" will not change the distance one
fraction. In fact the relative distance will _increase_ if we go from 5 Regions
to 3 principalites... We don't have "camps" here...we have Power Brokers... And
I really hate to say that...but it's quite evident...
>I realize I have addressed only one issue in your post, but Ill get to the
>de-centralization issue at a later date- got some homework to do on that end
Good folks, I'm not ragging on Dieter! His was an excellent post and well
thought out letter. But his perceptions are not of Ansteorra... Although he and
Penelope are doing a _great_ job in their adopted Kingdom!
Wake up and smell the manure folks... This whole "deal" stinks....!
I remain yours in Faith and in Truth...
Sir Kief av Kiersted...
"Better the Hammer than the nail..."
ONE STAR...ONE PEOPLE!
More information about the Ansteorra