Dun B*

[Tim McDaniel]

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Angela M Viator <av4 at evansville.edu> wrote:
>  Incipient Canton of Dun Bruddair |
...
> *DOES ANYONE KNOW THE OFFICIAL SPELLING OF MY CANTON'S NAME....

At the risk of re-opening old wounds, no, nobody knows.

This is long, because I explain why registration attempts have been
returned.  BTW, I suspect this is also a sensitive topic, so I'd be
careful how I'd raise it in discussion with the group.  (Hint: if I
were new, I'd just quietly pass this on to the branch herald and
seneschal, with a tone of "I dunno, but maybe this is useful".)

Basically, I'm afraid that using a Gaelic dictionary to find
adjectives starting with "B" to put after "Dun" is not productive of
period-style names.


The first name submitted for heraldic registration was Dun Bruadair.
(I should cite the location.  It was item number 56 on Internal Letter
of Intent #80, May 1992, the "ILoI from Hell".)  It was documented as
Gaelic:
    Dun: fort. ... Bruadar: a dream (noun).
This is roughly, then, "Castle of the Dream".

It was returned by Star Principal Herald at HeraldiCon II (the 13-hour
meeting) in June 1992, with the text:

    The College of Arms has gotten a lot stricter on group names than
    it was at one time.  This name does not match place names
    documented in period (or out of period, for that matter).  In
    addition, use of the "dream" or its translation, is like to have
    problems in being registered.  First, places did not have names
    including such abstract concepts as dreams.  Second, the term "the
    dream" has reached such a level of use in the Society, that using
    it in a name is likely to be viewed as presumptuous.  The device
    is returned for redrawing. ...

I don't think the second reason is true, though some people might
*think* that to themselves, I suppose ...

However, as far as I know, the first statement is true.  In general,
you can't put together words from a dictionary and necessarily get a
period-style name.  As one name expert put it (Talan Gwynek),
"The Big It" is composed of dictionary words, but that doesn't make it
a period name.

It's like period clothing.  Cotton is period (though rare and
expensive).  A cotton t-shirt is made of period materials, but it's
not period style (as far as I know) due to its construction.

A proposed name, either a personal name, branch name, order name, or
title, generally has to be supported by similar constructions dated to
period.  For example, I know that "Daniel de Lincoln" is a
registerable name because

- Daniel was used in period England as a given name, dated in that
  spelling to 1189 and 1215 (E.G.Withycombe).
- Lincoln was a city in period England at the same time that "Daniel"
  is known to have been used.
- There are plenty of period examples of "<given name> de <place
  name>" in English names in Anglo-Norman times.

The only problem is that I don't have a dated citation for the
spelling "Lincoln", tho I have (de) Lincolia in Domesday Book, 1086,
and Lincolne in 1093 in an Old English context.  However, the College
of Arms gives lots of leeway for temporal incompatibility and use of
standard modern spellings.

For Dun examples: Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn,
<hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu>, the Great Names
Balrog^H^H^H^H^H^HExpert of the West, recently answered a query about
what is currently registered as "D{'u}n an Locha Ruaidh" (where {'u}
represents "u" with a back-accent, \, over it, and {u'} is "u" with a
/-accent over it):

    Others have covered the grammatical matters here.  Hogan's
    "Onomasticon Goedelicum" lists a number of place names that speak
    to proper construction.

    With regard to "Red Lake", are they really stuck on this being a
    generic description (the red lake) or is it intended to function
    as a proper name of the body of water (Red Lake)?  The latter
    seems more conducive to having a habitation named after it.  Hogan
    does not list any existing "Loch Ruadh", although he does list a
    "Loch Derg", which also refers to red color, as well as the more
    expected colors: Loch Ban, Loch Dubh [Black Lake!], Loch Glas.

    Under "d{u'}n", Hogan has at least one "D{u'}n locha" (lake's
    fort), and at least one other named after a body of water, "D{u'}n
    inbhir" (estuary's fort).  One can find rare examples of "d{u'}n"
    modified by a complex phrase (excluding personal names and
    numbers), e.g. "d{u'}n cluana {i'}chtair", "fort of [the] lower
    meadow" and similarly rare examples where "d{u'}n" is modified by
    a generic lone noun with definite article, e.g., "d{u'}n na long",
    "fort of the ship".  I can find only one example modified by a
    complex phrase that includes the definite article, "d{u'}n in
    chorad benli" (possibly, "fort of the fallen heroes", although I'm
    not entirely confident about the "benli=fallen" part).  There are
    no examples with such a modifying phrase that itself refers to a
    geographic feature.

    Based on this, the meaning they intend seems best rendered by
    "d{u'}n locha ruaidh".  This is, at least marginally, supported in
    overall construction by examples in Hogan.

Note that all the examples she gives are quite concrete.  The most
non-concrete is the "fort of the fallen heroes", and even that
presumably had some real battle there or nearby with buckets-o-blood.
Bodies rolled, heads rolled, sword fu, 97 on the Vomit Meter ... Ahem.


The next submission was Dun Br{`o}dail, item #11 on the March 1993
ILoI.  It was "documented" from a dictionary, as "Proud Fort".  That
was accepted by kingdom in May, but returned by Laurel King of Arms in
November 1993:

    Dun Br{`o}dail, Canton.  Name and device.  Per bend invected azure
    and argent, a tower argent and a laurel wreath vert.

        No documentation was presented in the LoI nor could any of the
        commenters find any support for "Proud Hill" as a reasonable
        name formation.  As we cannot form holding names for groups,
        the armory must be returned as well.


The next name submission was Dun Bruthainn, item 7 in the August 1995
ILoI, again "documented" from a dictionary as Fort + "Sultry heat,
sultriness. ... Fort of Sultry Hear.  Referring to local weather
conditions.  No dates provided."  It was returned in October 1995
(published in the Ansteorran Gazette of January 1996), with the
comment "No documentation on name elements".  "Sultry heat" is Gaelic,
yes, but there was no documentation that "sultry heat" is *usable as
an adjective modifying "Dun"*.  Da'ud ibn Auda's commentary (and he
was also Laurel King of Arms at the time):

    Is there any support at all from any source for a place named for
    its "local weather conditions"?  I am personally unaware of any.
    Rules for Submission II.2.b.i requires that "Names of branches
    must follow the patterns of period place-names.  Some good Society
    examples are: Shire of Carlsby, Standonshire, Barony of
    Jararvellir, College of Saint Carol on the Moor, all of which
    closely resemble period place-names."  Unless someone can find
    some support for places named for weather conditions, I think they
    need to do some research and try again.


So where can the group go from here?  I see four paths, all of which
could be followed:

- Try to find Hogan's "Onomasticon Goedelicum" and look up other names.
- E-mail Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn,
  <hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu>, who has Irish name sources.
- E-mail Talan Gwynek, <scott at math.csuohio.edu>, the Great Name Balrog
  of the East.  (Well, Middle, actually.)
- E-mail the Academy of Saint Gabriel, an association of heralds
  devoted to researching names and armory.  Talan and Tangwystyl both
  participate there, as do others.  You can reach them via the
  S. Gabriel web page.  I'm afraid I don't have the URL to hand, but
  you can reach it via the SCA heraldry web page, at
  "http://www.sca.org/heraldry".

Or I've heard the group referred to as "Dun B".  Maybe Dunby is
registerable, if they want an English-based name?  "-by" was a common
suffix (James Johnson, p. 48), related to Old Norse and Danish
"b{ae}-r", "by", 'dwelling, village'.

"D{u'}n" appears to be Old English as well as Irish.  With examples of

Donecerce, Dunchirch, Dunkyrke (modern Dunchurch, church on the hill),
Donham (Dunham, hill dwelling)
Dunhevet, Downehevede, Dunehevede, Dunhefd (modern Dunheved, from
    "Cornish din hafod, hill of the summer residence, no doubt
    confused with Old English heafod; Danish hoved, the head"),
Dunmore (Scottish, big hill)
Dunestaple (Dunstable, hill of the market)

and another half-page of examples, all from James Johnson, _Place
Names of England and Wales_.

The problem is construction.  -by seems much more likely to follow a
name, especially a Norse name, like "Foo's Village", but there's Kirby
(kirk-by, dwelling by the church), Corby (a doubtful case; it may be
"dwelling by the oat field" or "Cor's place"), Borrowby (in Domesday
book several times spelled Berg(h)ebi: "fortified dwelling-place",
from Old Norse borg ... "fort, burgh").

And someone with more time than I have at the moment can scan Johnson
or some other source more thoroughly for names like "topographic +
-by".

Or maybe "Donby", based on Donitone, Dunnington, Dunyngton, "village
of the sons of Dunn".

Or maybe you can go for Borgdalr, modern spelling Borrodail.  Norse
Borg-dal-r, "dale, valley with a fort in it".  No date is given, tho,
but Talan might justify it or dropping the "g" or "r" in period times.
(Submit Dun Borgdalr / Borrodail, hill of the valley, and I'll be just
sick at the contradiction! 8-)  Despite College of Arms laxness on
modern spellings, I'd still encourage you to go with period spellings.

Whew!  Sorry to go on so long!

-- 
Danielus de Lincolia
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com
tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is wrong tool.  Never use this.