ANST - Fighting awards/orders...

Pug Bainter pug at
Wed Nov 5 09:55:00 PST 1997

Paul Mitchell said something that sounded like:
> Cool!  Let's see what we come up with...

Thanks. This helps alot.

Did I hear of a King's Lancer for equestrian?

>> Am I missing any?
> Not unless you want to count Royal Peerages, the ranks of Duke/Duchess,
> Count/Countess, Viscount/Viscountess, and their various cultural
> equivalents (Earl, Hrabia, Jarl, Khalid, etc.).  These are given
> after the conculsion of reigns as King/Queen of a Kingdom or
> Prince/Princess of a Principality.  But they're really recognition
> more for ruling than for fighting.

Right, which is why I left this out. These I understand how they are

> (Well, since 1966, in all the kingdoms of the SCA, only once was it
> not the King who had won Crown.)

We've got the only one?! Cool.

> And many Kings disdain protection.


>> If so, why
>>   aren't the Falcon, Rapier and Archer the equivalent of the Thistle and
>>   Crane. (I think the Thistle mechanism would easily work for the
>>   Martial Arts and thus have one award with multiple categories.) 
> Because in their wisdom, the various rulers of Ansteorra who created
> these honors did not set it up that way.  Nor do I think fighting
> suffers the lack of an AoA-level award in this kingdom; the knights'
> squires, the Masters' students, and the Don's cadets seem to serve
> as the equivalent recognition.  Hindsight is easy.

Can it be correctly in hindsight? Should it be?

I don't think that fighting is lacking, I just like consistancy. *smile*

>> If
>>   not, are they a "stepping stone" toward Knighthood and why do they
>>   exist? (Yes, I know you don't have to get an award/order to get the
>>   "next" one, but there is usually a progressive growth in someone.) 
> No.  Not everyone will achieve knighthood.

This I certainly know. Not everyone that recieves an award will have the
skill, grace nor desire to continue on further. This doesn't make them
less of a person, nor make it any less of an honor.

> These lesser honors are not
> "stepping-stones", neither prerequisites nor promises for later, greater
> recognition.  One or two knights have received Sable Falcons, and a
> knight could conceivably become a Centurion.

This is more of what I was wanting to touch on. So the prerequisites for
a Centurian are different enough from the Knighthood that someone can be
recognized as one, but never the other?

> There is no rapier tournament which, having won it, bestows any armigerous
> title.  You can't simply win the right rapier tourney and get promoted, 
> as you can by winning Crown.  That's what _Corpora_'s prohibition is
> about.

Thank you for the clarification.

> If we wanted to, we could knight someone for excellence in 
> rapier combat; don't hold your breath.

I know I won't. That was my original question, but the way I read it,
they were restricted from the Order of the Chivarly.

Martial arts are "including but not limited to tournament lists, wars,
combat archery, and period fencing, as well as such related activities
as scouting and target archery."

Order of Chivalry is made in part for being "considered the equal of his
or her prospective peers with the basic weapons of tournament combat"

As well, this is the sentence I read that (incorrectly?) implied to
me they couldn't receive armigerous titles for rapier combat. "Rapier
combat, not having been part of formal tournament combat in the Middle
Ages, shall not be a part of formal tournament lists for royal ranks
and armigerous titles."

> But I believe that in other
> kingdoms, there are a couple of Laurels for rapier combat.

That I can see as almost anything can be turned into an art or science
if done right.


Phelim "Pug" Gervase  |  "I know that I will neer be politically correct
Barony of Bryn Gwlad  |   I don't give a damn about my lack of etiquette
House Flaming Dog     |   As far as I'm concerned the world could still be flat"
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