ANST - Award recommendation issues..

[Mike C. Baker]

Warning: I started a response to Galen, and then saw that part of my
questions / reservations had already been addressed. Apologies in
advance if I seem to contradict myself, or did not completely clean
out the driftwood from what had already been composed...

---Paul Mitchell <pmitchel at flash.net> wrote in response to Pug:
> Galen of Bristol here!
[SNIPPPPP]
> >   Is sitting around discussing "why So-And-So is and 
> > So-And-So isn't" a form of award recommendation?
> It can be.  If you have this discussion on private e-mail 
> or chat, or in your own living room or around your own 
> campfire, then no.  But if you do it as the topic of 
> discussion at your barony's monthly meeting, or on
> this mailing list, both of which are essentially 
> public forums, I suggest that that does constitute 
> an award recommendation, and has no valid place
> as a topic of public discourse.
  
Galen, I must admit defeat this time -- your choice of wording
has confused me somewhat. 

I *think* you intended to say that private discussion can become award
recommendation and that public discussion (OTHER THAN within the
peerage circles or equvilant "polled order" closed gatherings) is
out-of-bounds, in term of propriety. [I see that you addressed this
more thoroughly later on; I crave your pardon to use the opening and
acknowledge that I was indeed confused until reading 
further...]

Your initial phrasing seemed to imply that you see ONLY formal
recommendations conveyed by the postal authorities or other physical
means should to be considered, at least in "ideal" circumstances. I
see in later material where you make the distinction between "word
fame" and formal recommendation. I fear that the nature of that
distinction may not be clear to a majority of the SCA populace.

I will agree that there should be a "documentation trail" in most
matters. I disagree that the initial recommendation is necessarily a
matter of formal phrasing. "Having the King's Ear" is one of the
perq's typically associated with the peerages and / or status as a
noble. It has always been my assumption that there is at least SOME
discussion of candidates for various awards in those informal
circumstances.

Hypothetical: Ld. Xvr has been nominated for a Kingdom-level award
based upon his work for the populace of two widely separated
geographically distant) local branches, either or both of which have
placed formal requests for Comet or Baronial Service awards "into the
pipeline" (or already insured this greatly-desired workhorse has
received). It would be my presumption that TRM would consult with the
territorial authorities, and/or peers & acquaintances who may have
witnessed the commendable deeds of Ld. Xvr, before proceeding with the
award of the kingdom-level recognition. Further, I would expect at
least some portion of such consultation to be conducted informally,
either via telephone or in direct conversation not necessarily
associated with a formal SCA occasion. 

If matters are claimed to be otherwise, currently or previously within
the Kingdom of Ansteorra, I would be most thoroughly amazed. Now,
whether or not such informal conversations are "legal" basis for
considering future awards in the strictest sense of Kingdom Law and
Corpora may be another matter entirely. I hold that any limitation
would be unenforceable if it exists (my cheese-for-brain memory does
not recall with certainty, and I admit to being too lazy to thoroughly
research the matter at the moment - I *have* done a quick-scan of the
on-line Corpora...).

> > Is mentioning that you think someone might be worthy in idle 
> > passing either in person or email an award recommendation? 
> > (As someone recently
> >  asked me if it was or not and I was completely shocked.)
> Again, it can be.  If I say, "Gee, Lord X sure helped me out 
> last weekend; he helps a lot of people," that's word-fame.  
> If I say, "Hey, why isn't Lord X a Pelican; if he's not 
> worthy, I can't imagine who would be" is
> an award recommendation.

Galen, it is my opinion that both can be recommendations. Your example
of word-fame might be most appropriate if the speaker does not know
the individual being commented upon well enough to be aware of what
awards they may or may not already have. It would be presumptuous and
wasteful of me, for example, to recommend someone for a Peerage-level
award if I had not observed them over a span of time. However, as part
of the collateral information that accumulates I can hope that my
remarks might raise the attention level or awareness of those who *do*
know the person being praised better than myself -- and/or induce the
Crown/nobles/peers into taking another look.
  
> > What I've seen as myself trying to figure out what 
> > guidelines are for a certain award or what does and 
> > doesn't make a peer may have been taken
> > by others as award recommendations. I admit that it 
> > may bring individuals into some consideration since 
> > whomever I am talking with has to think about what 
> > they've done and what they haven't, but I
> > never saw it as recommending them for anything.
> Again, no problem with this in private discourse; but 
> when you take it public, it's exceptionally discourteous 
> to the individual, the circle, and the Crown.  All are 
> put on the spot.  In a public forum, you _must_
> avoid bringing up specific names.

Most strenuously agreed. Our definitions of "public forum" may differ
in some particulars, but the intent is the same I believe.
 
> Now, I _do_ believe that it is completely appropriate to 
> use this list to discuss standards for awards, what 
> constitutes right and wrong conduct, the nature of 
> chivalry, honor, prowess, artistic excellence, or what 
> qualities should a peerage circle be looking for, as 
> long as you don't start naming names as examples.  

Could I suggest an amendment here? Perhaps not the names of those who
may or may not be *candidates*, but certainly we should not proscribe
the suggestion of one person or another's attributes when they have
already been elevated to a given award? (Yes, it would be better to
describe explicitly the range of ability or conduct we are holding
forth as an exemplar. There are certain attributes which do not lend
themselves well to such simplicity. "What is a Lion of Ansteorra?"
comes immediately to mind...)

> We don't discuss candidates on the private lists; 
> they certainly shouldn't be discussed on the public list.

Strongly agreed, given the other circumstances noted.

===
Pax ... Kihe / Adieu -- Amra / TTFN -- Mike
Kihe Blackeagle / Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra /
Mike C. Baker       F.O.B. (Friend Of Blackfox)
My opinions are my own -- no one else would want them!

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