ANST - Princes and Princesses

[Decker, Terry D.]

> Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> > 
> > > When a shire goes for barony status, no one complains that they
> > > want to leave the kingdom. 
> > >
> > > - Galen of Bristol, Knight of Ansteorra
> > >
> > The change of status from shire to barony does not normally affect any
> other
> > group.  
> 
> What "other group?"  If we take the Southern Region as an example,
> then all the branches _within_ that region are affected if it
> becomes a principality.  Branches in other regions would probably
> also be affected.  Likewise, I strongly suspect that Greywood, 
> Stargate, Shadowlands, and other groups were affected when Raven's 
> Fort became a barony.
> 
Shires and baronies have defined territories.  The elevation of a shire to a
barony does not normally cause territorial problems.  The creation of a
principality within a kingdom may cause territorial problems and therefore
is more analogous to a canton being raised to a shire.  My point was, your
analogy of a shire being raised to a barony was not necessarily correct
given the focus of the discussion.

> > While there are examples to the contrary, the general experience has
> been
> > that principalities become kingdoms.  
> 
> I submit that when talking about SCA branches, experience is less 
> indicative than is intent.  I don't believe that _any_ region in
> Ansteorra could _ever_ generate enough support for secession to
> get it.
> 
Intent is a matter of the moment.  Experience occurs over time.  Both views
can be completely correct in the context of this discussion. 

The intent now is to form principalities without going for kingdom status.
What is the intent in 5 years?  10 years?  Current intent is not indicative
of future intent.

Experience says principalities aspire to become kingdoms more often than
not.  So there is a good chance that some of the principalities of Ansteorra
will try to become kingdoms.

It is my opinion that intent and experience would intersect after the people
involved in the creation of the principality drop below 20 per cent of the
population.  As for generating support for secession, there have been times
when it could have occurred.  They may come again.  

> Once a region
> > becomes a principality, the threat of secession becomes real, even if
> the
> > reality is not likely.
> 
> > Bear
> 
> The Western Region could seceed to join the Outlands, or the Northern
> Region
> could join Calontir, and I don't find either of these more or less
> likely
> than the idea that they would ever want to leave Ansteorra to stand
> alone.
> 
> But if a principality has a population that _doesn't_ _want_ _to_
> _leave_
> _its_ _parent_ _kingdom_, then it will stay in the Kingdom.  No
> principality
> will be created without a consensus of the membership of the proposed
> principality.  And no principality can ever become its own kingdom 
> without a consensus of its membership for that seperation.
> 
> - Galen
> 
Interesting you should pick the two regions which have a regional identity.
I would expect them to be less likely to leave unless they can stand alone,
or pick up part of another kingdom's territory.  

Ten years ago, principalities were anathema.  Today, it looks as if we may
actually have principalities.  The fact is, consensus often changes.   

Bear
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