ANST - Re: SR - principality reasoning (long!)

[Donal & Sosha]

Hello, Donal here......

Dennis and Dory Grace wrote:

> The "eases the burden of the Crown" is, in my opinion, one of the lesser
> reasons to support forming a Principality. 

I agree totally.

> It may very well not decrease
> the number of events a Crown attends during Thier reign, but it just as
> easily may. It does at least offer TM the opportunity to hit one or two
> events less.

So does the idea of putting all those semi-retired nobles (or better
yet, the active ones) to work handing out award scrolls.

(Stuff re: insignia snipped - that's the least problematic item in all
the "new work" debate)

> The question of "work" will take care of itself. No one is going to force
> anyone to continue to hold (or to take on) an office that develops from a
> regional office into a principality office that's more work than they
> signed on for. There are folks willing to do the work (which really isn't
> as much more in many cases as some might think). If there aren't, then the
> question of whether we make a principality or not will pretty much be
> answered, I do believe.

I have asked this before, and will again. Where are they _now_? All
these "people who are willing to do the work", are they supposed to
pop out of the woodwork as soon as a principality is formed? Is there
some stigma to holding a regional or kingdom office, that does not
apply to principality ones? I ask this in all seriousness. Two of my
regional officers are doubling from branch officers, several of my
staff positions are open and likely to remain that way, and another
regional officer went and got himself made Crown Prince - and I have
received _two_ applications for that office. I had to practically
draft someone - twice - to fill this region's herald's office. We
don't really have a regional treasurer yet due to administrative
hoo-hah, and Donald was filling in for one of his regional offices for
6 months. Is it necessary to have a pretty title, and be assured of a
pretty cookie, before work gets done? If that's the case, then those
"people who are willing to do the work" can just sit right back down,
as far as I'm concerned. 

> I think that rather than us talking about how horrible all this extra work
> will be *for someone else* perhaps we should let officers or prospective
> officers speak for themselves; they're more than capable of saying whether
> or not they'll be willing or able to maintain their regional offices if
> they develop into principality offices or if they would need a replacement.

I think that rather than talking about how current officers aare
willing to do the work we should face the fact that _all_ of those
current officers will be near the end of their warrants, if not past
'em, before any principality could get off the ground. Find some new
volunteers, heve 'em start as deputies to the current regional
officers. Then I'll believe in the "people who are willing to do the
work".
> 
> >>>The concept of principality does'nt bother me.  I'm one of the few who
> can say they were playing here before it was the Principlaity of Ansteorra.
>  However; I want to see it done for the right reasons.<<<
> 
> What do you see as the right reasons?

1)A desire to start a new entity. You say you have this. I don't. I
like being an Ansteorran. I have been an Ansteorran for 6 1/2 years
now. A blink of the eye to some, I know, but in that time I have been
constantly active and travelled to just about every part of this
Kingdom at least once (no, I don't claim every branch). I would be
saddened to see us chopped up into smaller bits.
2)A geographical separation from the parent group which makes it
easier for the alleged principality to operate. We don't have this. In
fact, the most often discussed borders split off a big chunk of
population which could make the proposed principality (hereafter
referred to as the PP) a more viable group. And I ain't talkin' about
the West, pilgrim.
3)A major difference in political/social stucture, causing strains
which would be relieved by this sort of separation. Sorry, the place I
see that is the North. The only differences I see down here are mainly
caused by individual personalities and cliques - not a good reason,
IMHO, for a PP. Oh, and I'm not suggesting we kick the North out,
either. There are differences in play style and social structure, but
not enough to cause disaffection, just enough to make diversity fun.
> 
> The reasons I like the idea of making a principality are the fun of
> creating something and the development of a new level of opportunities for
> 1) leadership opportunities; 

A kingdom this big, this vibrant, this alive, and you don't have
enough leadership opportunities? Start a guild, take a kingdom office,
a regional office, a baronial office. Start a household, run a
fighting unit (I know about the martial arts, don't tell me you're not
a fighter :)  ). Teach a class. Teach three. Take apprentices. Run
events (you're doing this one already). Leadership doesn't require a
smaller group to make it possible.

> 2) another level of pageantry; 

We got more dukes/duchesses, count/esses, baron/esses (of both
varieties) running around here than you can shake a stick at (or else
you'd better be _really_ good with said stick). If there's not enough
pageantry, it isn't for lack of nobles. We got courts that go for
hours already. I'll agree that there could be more pageantry, but
that's more a function of behavior than brass hat quotient, and this
kingdom doesn't seem to go for bigformalpompous ceremony. Biker
kingdoms, what can you say?

3) another level of artistic expression; 

This one I just don't get. You either express yourself as an artist or
you don't. If you do the work for the sake of the work alone, what
does it matter if it gets shown to any but your friends? If you want
to show your work, you can do so at local events, events elsewhere, or
big kingdom events (or multikingdom events). If you want another
competition, start one. Don't see the need for more contests, myself.

4) event themes; 

Having a problem with this one, as well. We do "themed" events
already: Romano-Celtic, Whitsunfair, the upcoming Harvest Festival.
Stargate (my former home) had War of the Roses, Tournament of the
Worthies. Other branches have Three Kings, To Save A Queen, Celtic
Cattle Raids. What "theme" would be available in the PP that isn't
now? PP Coronet Tourney Theme? PP Coronet Investiture Theme?  Not a
good reason, I think.

5) more closely knit communty.

So build it. Take a couple of years, work for a real regional
identity, and run with it. Work toward the goal that every event in
the region automatically avoids every other event in the region,
without having to stop and say, "Oh yeah, that's opposite Shadowlands.
Better not; it wouldn't look good." And the goal of having to limit
the number of branches that sponsor a regional event. And the goal
that any of our fighting units can coordinate with any other on a
moment's notice. And the goal that a person can move from one branch
in the region to another without having to be snubbed for six months,
or can volunteer to run an event in the new branch without having to
be supervised to make sure s/he's doing it "our way". Work toward all
those goals. Then get a real mandate for a principality.
 
> I also think that one of the very best reasons to make a principality here
> is that it would appear that the clear majority here want to. Based on a
> combination of the polls listed on the southern regional page to date
> (except Shadowlands; the only votes listed for them is about boundaries; so
> I suppose you could even consider those as in support overall), something
> like 75% are in favor, about 18% don't care/abstained, and only 7% said no.

Your numbers, I think, are misleading; though not, I am sure,
intentionally, only by interpretation. I would be happpy to discuss
this further with you, either privately or on this list.

> 
> I'd also like to point out that it's pretty easy for anyone to come along
> and address any of these points (along with other reasons folks give in
> favor of a principality)  with something to the effect of "but we can do
> stuff like that,  minus having a Prince and Prince, *without* a
> Principality." 

They won't let us have two Princes, anyway. :)

> Anyone can argue with any of these reasons. Anyone can say
> something like "we've survived all this time without a principality, I
> don't see the need now." I don't necessarily have any specific problem with
> comments of this sort. I guess at this point, though, I look at the results
> of those straw polls held around the region. I'm betting that the
> undecideds aren't campaigning against the concept and are just sitting back
> and looking at the reasoning on both sides. Since I've yet to hear much in
> the way of solid argument *against* getting together and doing the
> principality thing (and the "it's so much work" argument won't hold,
> because we have a load of people willing to work--and already doing a bunch
> of work), I'm curious; why does this small percentage of folk not want the
> apparent majority of us to do this thing we want to do? My question to
> everyone who voted 'no' would be "how do you think things might change for
> the worse for *you* if we make a Principality?" Don't get me wrong, I'm not
> trying to offend anyone or stifle any valid arguments against a
> principality, if anyone can come up with one. Maybe if we dragged some of
> these fears out into the light, they could be examined. (BTW, Gillie, I'm
> not referring to you or your question here; this is something I've been
> wondering about for a while anyway). I'm just a little concerned with
> having seen a little of what seems to me to just be counterproductive
> naysaying or negativity for negativity's sake. Maybe I'm just misperceiving
> some stuff; any feedback from anyone on this?
> 
> Aquilanne

Sure. I like my primary upper-level SCA group identification to be
Ansteorra, Kingdom of. I have heard all the arguments about PP could
stay a Principality for years, we would still be Ansteorrans, etc. I
do not believe that would be the case. Experience with people in
general, as well as Ansteorran politics and SCA politics, tells me
that there will be _someone_ who sees the PP as nothing more than a
chance to build another little clique, to make themselves a bigger
fish in the smaller pond, and would begin to drive wedges between us
and the rest of the kingdom. I would hate to see this happen. I have
yet to see a valid argument _for_ the PP, with the sole exception of
the "fun to do a new entity" one. Believe it or not, I respect that
reason. But I don't share it. I have to disagree with your
interpretation of the various "straw polls"; it looks more to me like
the majority is apathetic, a minority is strongly for, and another
smaller minority is strongly against. And most of the other reasoning
I have seen seems to boil down to "We can make our own smaller pond,
and not have to compete or play with certain other fish, and then when
we are top fish (have "trained"or "expressed" at this "new level"), we
will move out into the big pond again." This is not an attempt at a
flame; it is my honest opinion. I don't think that another level of
brass hats/awards/offices/ recognition/etc. is either necessary or
desirable. So, "Ah'm agin it!"

Donal
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