ANST - Hated nonperiod term

Margo Lynn Hablutzel Hablutzel at compuserve.com
Tue Jan 5 06:44:31 PST 1999


Phillipa asked:

        >> How did the Victorians come up with the term "remove" anyway?

The definition in my dictionary (see below for details on this wonderful
book) says:  "Of dishes: To be replaced or followed by, after removal
1840."  So the use with dishes is squarely Victorian.  And it may be
related tothe dish iteself being called a "remove", meaning a large platter
used to place food before people and take it away again.

Ronnie said, in part:

        >> The list seems to work primarily on modern English usage.

Except that modern usage is to say "course" and not "remove."

        >> So I'd guess the authenticity mavins would use "remove"
        >> properly (though not exclusively, since "course" also works
        >> modernly) here, and their teeth should only itch when they
        >> feel a term shows up in the wrong age and locale.

But "remove" is not used in modern English (at least, not in the countries
where I have lived and/or visited), and it is, as noted above, post-period
for dishes and meals.

        >> Please also satisfy my curiosity: when was the earliest, where
        >> and why, was "remove" first used in connection with feasting;
        >> and if you will, provide the authority?

Book stated below.  Above is the bit on when "remove" was used for food,
assuming you meant realtime and not SCA-wise.  That's on page 1701.  On
page 410 we have "course" which is defined as "Each of the successive parts
or members of a series" and "A planned series of actions or proceedings: as
of diet etc.," the former ME and the latter 1605, and one of the sample
usages includes "A dinner of many courses."

        >> Anyone out there have an OED that tracks the entire eytemology?

I do, rather it is a simile volume dedicated solely to etymology, which is
one reason I know using "remove" is wrong.  This is THE OXFORD UNIVERSAL
DICTIONARY ON HISTORICAL PRINCIPLES, Little, Fowler, and Coulson, rev./ed.
Onions, Third Ed. Rev. with Addenda, Oxford, Clarendon Press 1955.

Admittedly, I did not look on the period records to see what they say, but
my memory is that they use course as well for each division of foods.  I
believe that Dame Alys Katherine used some of that in her article.


                                        ---= Morgan



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