ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage)

jonwillowpel at juno.com jonwillowpel at juno.com
Tue Oct 5 13:34:18 PDT 1999


Master Tivar is right but he missed a point. 

Duke Jonathan was the Atenvelt king that signed them in when we were a 
Principality. Princes cannot  create combat rules without the approval
and signature of the King.  Simon was the Prince who wrote them but
Jonathan took the responsibility for them. I would also add he took a lot
of flack for them. Do any of you remember the inquiry? Well we were
offered a deal that it wouldn't happen if Jonathan backed down from his
support of the light community.  Also there was  the board meeting where
they were going to vote to outlaw light weapons on the field . It was
Jonathan that spilled the beans and called the light community about what
was happening. 

As for getting a rapier fighting accepted as marshal art rather than a
dramatic presentation Master Tivar and the leaders of the rapier
community  have done that. The fact that some form of light fighting is
in most of the kingdom show that they  are making progress. Many of the
young knights have grown up with light fighting and think of it as valid
marshal art and hold it in high respect. .  Master Tivar do not give up!
I believe in your vision and think you are closer to it than you realize.
 

As for the differences between Master Tivar and ourselves. I believe that
they stem from our communications styles. Master Trivar and Duke Jonathan
 have always needed a translator and back then they were really out of
sinc. I know what we thought we were saying and appears that we were as
clear as mud. Master Tivar and Duke Jonathan  and myself were on
different sides of political fence and because of that saw things from
different angles. 

Duchess Willow de Wisp

On Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:14:32 -0500 Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
<moondrgn at bga.com> writes:
> 
> I'm afraid Her Grace has her facts a bit mixed up.
> 
> 
> At 07:53 PM 10/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >In the past we have not put Rapier fighting under the Laurel 
> because we
> >have been hoping for it to get put under knighthood or separate 
> category
> >under the Chivalry. It is a fighting art. 
> 
> Granted that rapier is a fighting art, there have never been more 
> than a
> small minority of the Belts who would be willing to see it included 
> as part
> of the Chivalry, either as a "regular" Knighthood, Master of Arms or 
> a
> separate category.
> 
> 
> >A long time ago my husband and
> >I had the choice of putting rapier fighting under the Laurel. 
> Master
> >Tivar was voted into the Laurel and the Pelican for his work in the
> >rapier community. Duke Jonathan , then King Jonathan, gave him the 
> choice
> >of what he wanted. 
> 
> I was never formally offered a choice between the Laurel and the 
> Pelican.
> There was discussion among various peers and the Crown about whether 
> the
> work I'd been doing in developing rapier combat was more suited to 
> the
> Laurel (research, development and teaching of a period fighting 
> style) or
> to the Pelican (administrative work in writing the rules, setting up 
> the
> marshallate, etc.) 
> 
> 
> >Jonathan explained that if Rapier fighting was put
> >under the Laurel it would never be thought of as part of the 
> Chivalry.
> >Master Tivar chose the Pelican. I feel this was the right decision 
> even
> >today and hope in near future that rapier fighters will be 
> recognize as
> >members of the Chivalry. 
> 
> I don't think that's any more likely now than it was 20+ years ago 
> when I
> got my Pelican. 
> 
> >( As a historical note Duke Jonathan de Laufyson was the king that 
> signed
> in >the first light fighting rules.)
> 
> 
> That depends on how you define 'first". Yes, the first set of rapier 
> combat
> rules for the Kingdom of Ansteorra were signed into law by the first 
> Crown,
> Jonathan and Willow. However, the *Principality* of Ansteorra had 
> had
> rapier fighting rules for over a year before we became a kingdom; 
> our
> parent kingdom of Atenveldt had official rapier fighting rules as 
> well. The
> first set of SCA-wide rapier fighting rules were put out by Duke 
> Andrew of
> Seldom Rest in AS XII (1977).
> 
> 	-Tivar Moondragon
>
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