ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage)

[Chris and Elisabeth Zakes]

At 01:34 PM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Master Tivar is right but he missed a point. 
>
>Duke Jonathan was the Atenvelt king that signed them in when we were a 
>Principality. Princes cannot  create combat rules without the approval
>and signature of the King.  Simon was the Prince who wrote them but
>Jonathan took the responsibility for them. 

That's not how *I* remember things...
I was appointed Stargate Rapier Marshal in the Fall of AS XIII (1977) and
Principality Rapier Marshal sometime in 1978. I know there were rapier
tournaments fought before then, however. That suggests that we were
operating with *some* kind of rules, even if they hadn't been approved by
Atenveldt.


>I would also add he took a lot
>of flack for them. Do any of you remember the inquiry? Well we were
>offered a deal that it wouldn't happen if Jonathan backed down from his
>support of the light community.  

That sounds rather unlikely. The Board meeting that approved rapier
fighting in the SCA was September 11th 1979 and Earl Kevin Perigryne, the
Society Marshal published a set of Society Rapier Rules In October of that
year. The Court of Inquiry wasn't held until November 10th almost two
months *after* the Board's approval of rapier fighting.


>Also there was  the board meeting where
>they were going to vote to outlaw light weapons on the field . It was
>Jonathan that spilled the beans and called the light community about what
>was happening. 
>
>As for getting a rapier fighting accepted as marshal art rather than a
>dramatic presentation Master Tivar and the leaders of the rapier
>community  have done that. The fact that some form of light fighting is
>in most of the kingdom show that they  are making progress. Many of the
>young knights have grown up with light fighting and think of it as valid
>marshal art and hold it in high respect. .  Master Tivar do not give up!
>I believe in your vision and think you are closer to it than you realize.

Dragging this (briefly) back towards the original topic, I should point out
that I am *not* in favor of a peerage for rapier fighting. By the
Renaissance, knighthoods were given out for military leadership or "service
to the state", not for individual fighting ability.

(snip)

and from a later posting...

>Oops!!
>I am afraid that Master Tivar was right. Jonathan came home and cleared
>things up. 
>First there had been no "official" rules in Ansteorra under Atenvelt.
>Ansteorra had create rules but they had never been signed by the King of
>Atenvelt or the Earl Marshal of Atenvelt. Jonathan believes that Sir
>Dennis of the Titans who was the Earl Marshall at the time did not
>allowed them. 

I'm not so sure of that. I have a copy of a set of Atenveldt Rules signed
by Sir Dennis. It is, unfortuantely, not dated and there is no Crown
signature, but it's filed between a letter from October of 1977 and one
from January 1979. That implies that there *were* official Atenveldt rules
sometime in 1978.


>Therefore the rules that we were using were not legal. We
>could get away with that because we were so far away and didn't care what
>Atenvelt thought.  The first Legal rules were those signed by his Grace
>as King of Ansteorra and Sir Karl as Earl Marshal of Ansteorra. It was
>these rules that got them into trouble.
>
>The thing that got me confused was the Principality award honoring light
>weapons fighters. This award was the Principality's version of the White
>Scarf. This was the first award for rapier fighting.  Prince Simon and
>Princess Tessa created the award but King Jonathan de Laufyson was the
>Aten king who approved it. 

Again, I'm not entirely sure of that. I *do* recall that it was TRM Theo
and Selene who were on the throne when the first White Scarf was given out,
but they *had* just succeded TRM Jonathan and Willow, so your chronology
may be correct.


>Remember all awards have to be signed by the
>king. Master Tivar was the first member of the Principality's award and
>when Jonathan and I , as first King and Queen , set up the White Scarfs
>we made him the first White Scarf and so maintained the order as created
>by Simon and Tessa.

I'm afraid you're mistaken on that. The White Scarf was not restructured
until TRM Lloyd and Joycelyn were on the throne, early in 1980. 

	-Tivar Moondragon
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