ANST - Lists of Peers, the next generation, or deep south 35,or voyageur...

[Brent & Susan Rachel]

Paul Mitchell wrote:

> >2)  Other Kingdoms have given archers and rapier folks peerages, but never
> >expressly for excellence/prowess with the weapons in their field.  The prowess
> >was acknowledged, but the laurels were given for period research into fighting
> >and accouterments, passing on these period methods, making accouterments, etc;
> >the  Pelicans were given for service related directly to the arena of rapier
> >combat/archery.  Never for the "prowess" per se.
>
> Ansteorra gave a Laurel to Master Leon Donne, largely for his
> work in archery.  Master Iolo FitzOwen, known perhaps equally
> as a bowsmith and bard, surely was recognized for both when
> he was made a Laurel.  Likewise Master Tivar's pelican surely
> owes much to his work in starting rapier combat here.  So it's
> not just "other" kingdoms that have done this.

I stand corrected.., twas but oversight, as I had intended to mention Tivar and
Leon.., but my post got long enough as it was.


> >3)  Peer-level prowess in these orphan martial arts (coupled with possessing all
> >the other general peerage qualities) ought to warrant a peerage.., whether one
> >of the existing 3, or another one.
>
> "Orphan" martial arts?  What a curious term; it seems to carry
> an emotianal charge to it.

It was a phrased bandies about a few times on that list.  Others were "the rest",
"Noble Arts", the "other combat activities/arts", "arts of War", "None of the above".

Reading back over my post I see I used "orphan" twice.  I had tried to pepper my post
with several of the terms, just as I tried to distill the posts to the various
suggestion that had been made there.  I also tried to construct the post to make sure
that all knew that these were my "reportings" vice my "personal feelings."


> This is a curious assertion, that every time someone takes the
> field, no matter for what purpose, that sufficient expertise
> should entitle that person to -- essentially -- knighthood?

I personally do believe that their is a social compact between the SCA (in the person
of the Kingdoms) and the membership that the best of what we can be (NOT just
prowess, but personal bests.., fighting the good fight.., dedication and hard
work...) will be recognized commensurately, and universally.., they should all be
peers of each other.  The SCA, purporting to celebrate the Middle Ages as they should
have been should contain no second class citizens.., and it is clear from the posting
on the other list that there are a lot of folks out there who see some folks as
distinctly second class.

If there were nothing except social aspects of "peerage" (read "Patent" - with which
I agree with Galen), then no one would really care.  But there is more.  Brass tacks
- folks want to be peers because becoming so is an accomplishment, a mark of success
and acceptance..., that bears with it a really cool bully pulpit and a RIGHT to be
heard by the Crown.  I don't think there is really think I need to go on citing how
SCA Peerage is so much other/more/less than recognition from your peers of a job
consistently and wonderfully well done.


> One of the "orphan martial arts" you haven't specified, but
> which is specified in Sir Jon's proposal, is "scouting", which
> is a popular thing at Pennsic's woods battle, but which we don't
> do a lot of in Ansteorra.  I just can't see a peerage for running
> up to the king and saying "35 Easterners coming from that way!"
> at one event per year.  No matter how well you do it.

I did leave that one out as not very apropos to Ansteorra.

> Likewise, these pursuits aren't universal to the SCA.  Equestrian
> is barely underway in Ansteorra, and rapier combat is still
> banned in some kingdoms.

One kingdom.  Calontir.  That's pret-ty darned universal.  Archery is universal.

> How can we have universal recognition
> for non-universal pursuits?

How about the first person to receive a Laurel for a skill for which a Laurel had
never been awarded before?  I don't figure the Laurels said..., "Hmm. I don't think
they are doing bobbin lace in every Kingdom right now, so you don't warrant a
Laurel."  With a "combat" peerage, open for all combat activities, you could grant it
as the situation demanded..., and none of this would even be a question.

> Do we presently have peerage-quality
> active archers in Ansteorra?

It is a black mark against us both that we do not know.

> >6)  The Pelican should be eliminated and we should just go back to one big Order
> >of the Laurel, with Knights of the Laurel for fighting and Masters of the Laurel
> >for "other than fighting" and for fighters who don't want to swear fealty.
>
> The SCA is so broke that we need to abolish an order that's been
> around for 25 years, and combine two others that have been
> seperate for 33 years?  I don't think so.  BTW, Knights have
> been around since day one in the SCA; Masters of Arms and
> Laurels came in at 12th Night in AS II.  Knights and Laurels
> were never one order.

I agree. Again, I was just passing on some of the suggestions that got some
discussion.

> >7)  Nothing new is needed.., at all.  Everything is fine as is.
>
> I think that if someone wants more widespread recognition for
> what they do, the model to follow is that of the White Scarf
> treaty, which is spreading recognition for rapier combat all
> over the known world, without the BoD's involvement.  A first,
> by the way.

And which has suffered in two Kingdoms already as a "backdoor" attempt at a
peerage.., "circumventing corpora", etc.  I agree with you that such a treaty is a
very positive thing.., however, I DO believe that the social compact of the SCA is
Peerage for peer quality stuff.

> >Anyway, I felt it time to maybe discuss this in an open forum.  Is it time to
> >look at recognizing "the rest of the martial community" for peer-level prowess
> >with their weapons of choice?  If so, how?  If not, why not?  Etc.
>
> To think that _every_ possible SCA activity should be able to
> recognized by a peerage seems to me to be a fallacy.

I really disagree.  I just think it would (should?) be so easy.., conceptually, at
least.  Like a never before seen art or science easy insertion into the Laurel.  If
the Chiv were for any and all combat, like the Laurel is for any and all arts or
sciences, and the Pelican for any service.., as long as they met the requisite
level.., then nothing would really be left out..., and we probably wouldn't ba having
this discussion.

> - Galen

Kazimir

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