ANST - re - Courtesy Crusade ... response and some related links

[j'lynn yeates]

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... a good thread from a medieval history point of view

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> [mailto:owner-ansteorra at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of Dale, Richard N
 
> I think many people are reading to much into the word "crusade". In
> a medieval context a crusade is wonderful thing that motivates 
> children and adults and moves whole nations in a good cause.

not necessarily, especially in a organization focused on *historical*
research (and a lot of literary fiction and idealogy ... but that's
another thread topic).  if someone wants to publically "raise a
crusade", they they should be aware that they are also going to raise
the historical aspects along with the ideological.  

good cause?  crusades a wonderful thing?   are we reading the same
european and islamic histories here?  how can one equate the
albigensian crusade, the sack of belgrade (chistian sacked by
christain), the sieges and eventual sacks of constantiople
(wealthiest christian city in europe, sacked by the crusdaers) and
jerusalem ... as "good" in any/way/shape/form ???

while i find such (crusades) historically interesting, personally i
find *nothing* wonderful about five centuries of chaos ceated
primarily by the church political propaganda machine .. a machine
that led to the slaughter of an untold number of christians and
moslems (mostly non-combatant civilians), cities and villages
destroyed, rape, pillage, theft ... and the attendent political
posturing, religious expansion, mercantile maneuvering ... all in
all, they (crusades) brought out the *worst* of europe and not it's
best.

for several (here and offline), the most chilling parallel that this
thread brings up is the "albigensian crusade" ... in that it was
raised against a populations subset that was deemed as "heretical"
and therefore worthy of isolation, designation, later persecution,
and eventual extermination.  it started at one level and ended up as
a civil war waged against ones own populations. their real crime? 
they thought and believed differently from those in power.  

basic lesson of these five centuries - all in all, no matter the
origin or ideals involved, holy war is not a good thing ... 

> ... The word crusade also brings to mind a extremely
> motivated, narrow minded, preacher on some ideology.
> While all the above descriptions are true, I do not believe 
> this to be the case in what Her Grace Duchess Larissa is trying to
> convey.  

i'm sure that is the case (the later statement), but we are a
historically centric group (supposidly) so you can't "sanitize"
concepts of their inconvenient negative contexts.  like history, you
have have to take it as a whole, positive and negative or not at all.

'wolf

some  historical links that might be of interest:

The Crusades: Five Centuries of Holy War
http://intranet.ca/~magicworks/knights/overview.html

Chronology of the Crusades (sub page of above)
http://intranet.ca/~magicworks/knights/overview.html

The Crusades (Course centering on First through Seventh) 
http://historymedren.miningco.com/homework/historymedren/gi/dynamic/of
fsite.htm?site=http://crusades.boisestate.edu/contents.html

Albigensian Crusade
http://historymedren.miningco.com/homework/historymedren/gi/dynamic/of
fsite.htm?site=http://crusades.boisestate.edu/contents.html

Crusade of 1101
http://historymedren.miningco.com/homework/historymedren/gi/dynamic/of
fsite.htm?site=http://crusades.boisestate.edu/contents.html

Crusade Links
http://historymedren.miningco.com/homework/historymedren/msubcrus.htm
http://historymedren.miningco.com/homework/historymedren/msubmenucrus.
htm


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