[Ansteorra] RE: authenticity

Fri Apr 12 14:59:26 PDT 2002

I have been watching this go on for awhile now, so I have to put my 2 cents
in.  Being relatively new to the SCA, I can see both sides.  My first event
my Mother made me a monk outfit (it was dress, she used the same pattern for
my wife and a friend, and sewed a hood on mine)  It was the last Lyonesse at
white water.  I cut it in half for a day tunic, and with one good tunic that
was gifted to me, went to Gulf Wars.  Now I have 10 with one hand embroider.
The only thing I need is period boots.  The key is ATTEMPT medieval clothing
and persona.  The problem I see is so many people get to a point and stop
trying to improve.  Then when others make more effort they are labeled the
SCA police or Nazis.  If it were not for them, I would have showed up with
horns on my helm.  On the other hand some people criticize and belittle
simply because their mundane lives are so disgustingly pathetic that the
only way they can achieve happiness is to put down others.  It is easy to
tell who is who.  I applaud the true "authenticity police" and whish there
were more of them.  I was going to say more, but my custom made 10th century
Vinland Viking sword that I have been waiting for 7 months just got here,
and I have been overcome with the urge to go viking.

Honor Above All, Above All, Honor

Lord Botolf the Dane

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Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:22 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: Ansteorra digest, Vol 1 #436 - 14 msgs

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Today's Topics:

   1. Practice (Galloch07 at aol.com)
   2. Re: Practice (Denni Lozos)
   3. RE: SCA slang (Marc Carlson)
   4. RE: SCA slang (Jay Yeates)
   5. from: the ministry of silly walks ... was: walking authentically (Jay
Yeates)
   6. re: walking authentically (Marc Carlson)
   7. RE: SCA slang (Jay Yeates)
   8. Re: Authenticity (Theron Bretz)
   9. The Journey (was SCA slang) (Lady Simone ui' Dunlaingh)
  10. Re: SCA slang (Theron Bretz)
  11. Re: SCA slang (macthomas)
  12. Re: SCA slang (Theron Bretz)
  13. Re: Authenticity (Christie Ward)
  14. Re: Re: [Ansteorra] Authenticity (IagoAH at aol.com)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: Galloch07 at aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:21:49 EDT
To: ansteorra-announce at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Practice
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Hello,
             I ask forgiveness for the bandwidth, but need directions to the
fighter practice on saturday for one of the groups in Texas. More
specifically I am trying to get in touch with Earl Drake. Much gratitude is
owed to anyone who can help me in this.
                               Thank you,
                                                 Evan Der Fultime

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:30:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Denni Lozos <webefroggy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Practice
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

--- Galloch07 at aol.com wrote:
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> Hello,
>              I ask forgiveness for the bandwidth, but need
> directions to the
> fighter practice on saturday for one of the groups in Texas.

answered privately

=====
Allyson Tymmes

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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Message: 3
From: "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20 at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:31:08 -0500
Subject: [Ansteorra] RE: SCA slang
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

>From: "Theron Bretz" <tbretz at montroseclinic.org>
>Your Excellency.  Well said, although your phraseology raises a more
> >general question.  Why is it that those who are serious about history are
>called Nazis?  This is not directed at you, it's a fairly common >turn of
>phrase, but one I find deeply disturbing and highly insulting It seems that
>anyone who tries to enforce some modicum of authenticity or tries to
>enforce the stated purpose of the Society is >the moral equivalent to the
>people who brought us the Holocaust?  And at the same time, the fantasy and
>beer crowd are just harmless >partygoers, Frat Boys out to have fun, until
>the bad old Nazis told >them to shape up.
>If that's the way things are shaping up, we (the history crowd) can't
>possibly win, and that's depressing.

Luciano,  I agree absolutely with your interpretation of history and the
mythinterpretatons of the Victorians.  Victorian scholars were excellent at
data gathering, their skill at interpretation, um, was less good -
frequently because they chose to interpret their gathered data in order to
support their a priori assumptions. I just wish the Victorians were the only
ones who did that.  Moreover we are in complete agreement regarding the use
of the term "Nazi".

Part of the problem you are seeing may have to do with the prevalent
mythology that we inculcate our new people with when they join (i.e. "stay
away from those people - they will try to make you do things their way,
they'll insult you and humiliate you publically, they're _Nazis_").  I say
myth because I maintain that while most of us have some example or other of
it happening, I have found that I have been accused of insulting people's
clothing and being a judgemental person -- simply from walking in to a room.
  I don't have to say a word, and people will -assume- that (because I am
interested in authenticity) I'm judging them, their clothes and their
personae.  Now, for those of you who don't know me - I *really* don't care
what other people do, or how they dress.  I don't discuss other people's
clothes with them, unless they bring it up, and even then I'm pretty mellow
about that they've chosen to wear [unless they try to tell me that X is a
fact or accurate, when it isn't].  Heck, I've *complimented* people on their
outfits, or some clever way of doing something, and they've gotten insulted.
  I know it's not just that the fangs and claws put people off (although
admittedly it doesn't help) since I've seen it happen with other people too.
  Because they've been taught people who are interested in authenticity are
like this.

What this means that is when someone takes it upon themselves to "help", and
make uninvited suggestions (and sometimes invited suggestions) to someone
who obviously is new, or has made some sort of fashion decision that isn't
somehow "right" to the helper -- we suddenly have a new anecdote.  Even *I*
have my own anecdote on this topic -- having been told by a Royal at my
first event - a Namron Medfaire - that my Garb was unacceptable and wrong
[basic black t- tunic].  But you know, I'm sure that this peer probably
*meant well*. And for the longest time, that encounter defined my
interpretation of people who were into authenticity.

So, where is this going?  Luciano, you used two figures of speech in your
message: "anyone who tries to enforce some modicum" and "we (the history
crowd) can't possibly win".  I am certain that you did not mean them the way
they came across, at least to me, but I would like to address the meanings
as they came across to me.

There is nothing to enforce, and nothing to win.  As frustrating as it can
be, there are no established standards of dress or behavior -- and even if
there were, we do not have the authority to enforce them.  At best, we can
do (as I hope I am doing in this message) show another way.  A way that we
have as much a right to as those people who aren't interested in history,
research, autheticity, whatever have to how THEY want to play the game.
[Personally, I resent being told, as I have been in the past, that there is
a "right" way to do this, and that if I didn't play by their rules, I should
go somewhere else.]

Marc/Diarmaid

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Message: 4
From: "Jay Yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] SCA slang
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:30:45 -0500
Organization: Wolfgaard Systems
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

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- -----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-admin at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-admin at ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Theron Bretz

> I believe that most of us fall somewhere in the
> middle between the "nazis" and the fantasy partiers.

* ...  Why is it that those who are serious about history are called
Nazis?

...
from a observation perspective that stretches back many years ....

it's a term that developed not to describe someone who was serious
about the Game, but to describe a very small set of individuals who
were serious about it *and* regularly attempted to impose it upon
those who were not as serious either by personal choice or
circumstance.

usually manifested by confrontational, "in-your-face", aggressive,
public style ... often done in a public setting so their
"appropriateness" could be witnessed and thus their perceived status
increased.  most often seen in garb & arts & science circles.  more
common in some kingdoms than others.

like those in the political party they were named for, those labeled
as such took their "periodness" in the game to a intolerant & rabid
political/religious level and seemed driven to spread it among those
that could pretty much care less ..  you see a higher level of this
kind of behavior in the more specific re-enactment societies, but
there has always been some spill over in the more general scadian
game.

'wolf
... In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of
principle, stand like a rock. (thomas jefferson)

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Message: 5
From: "Jay Yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:32:40 -0500
Organization: Wolfgaard Systems
Subject: [Ansteorra] from: the ministry of silly walks ... was: walking
authentically
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

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- -----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-admin at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-admin at ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Charlene Charette

> Actually it is believed that the way one would walk within the SCA
> period to modern day has changed.  If one considers that there
> weren't many heels of any kind on shoes and the surfaces we walk on
> are different, you can begin to percieve the way the differences
> could occur.
...

from the perspective of a male who does a *lot* of year-round walking
(and has all his life) .. on a wide variety of surfaces (pavement,
packed stone, rock, dirt, etc ..) in footware that usually dosn't
have much, if any of a heel - barefoot (primary), flat sandals
(secondary), moccasins, the flatist combat boots i can find, etc)
.... on, it really dosn't make that much of a difference - the
callous patterns and sole wear (on shoes & boots) and stride is all
is pretty much the same as when i wear heeled boots .. primarily wear
is to back of heel, & ball of foot, particularly right (i balance
more foreward that most and right-centric).  about only thing that
really moderates it is when i carry a exceptionally heavy backpack
over long distances

only footwear i run that dosn't exhibit this same wear pattern are my
heeled engineer boots ... but those are used primarily for riding
(motorcycle foot & leg armour).

based on my experience to date, i doubt there are truely "period"
differences so much as habitual & local-cultural issues that are
essentially trans-temporal ... all my life i prefer bare feet or flat
shoes, have always loved walking distances, always "bearing" -
usually a sidebag, sometimes a day/patrol pack, sometimes a full
backpack rig, and have developed my feet & legs  accordingly .. add
to that periodic aikido training that stresses movement and footwork
... these are all lifestyle issues that affect type of stride - much
more than the age i live in.

for someone bound up in constrictive heeled shoes all their lives,
who are mostly sedentary, rarely walks long distances, takes their
car/truck everywhere, or  does not regularly carry baggage weight ...
there might be percieved differences, but again these are localized
lifestyle/culture choices (per most modern americans).

while my experience may not be the "norm" for this current
country/culture, it is quite common elsewhere in todays modern world
... ergo, not really a "period" issue

'wolf
... grows his own shoe leather (and yes, the feet are moderately
furry, but there are *NO* hobbits in my family line)

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Message: 6
From: "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20 at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:35:45 -0500
Subject: [Ansteorra] re: walking authentically
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

>From: "Morgan Cain" <morgancain at earthlink.net>
>...I agree with Diarmaid (except that I think he meant to say "muscles of
>the FOOT")

Oh, Probably.  Let me check... nope you're right.  I mistyped.

Marc/Diarmaid

_________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
From: "Jay Yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] SCA slang
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:38:36 -0500
Organization: Wolfgaard Systems
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

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- -----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-admin at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-admin at ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Carl Chipman

"If that's the way things are shaping up, we (the history crowd)
can't possibly win, and that's depressing."

Win? Is there a war going on?

...
points are being tallied and the half-time band is ready off field
(warning: once on they are notoriorious for refusing to yield it
back)

'wolf
... sometimes the win is not to play the game by the rules set down
by others (anarcho barbarian politics 101)

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Message: 8
From: "Theron Bretz" <tbretz at montroseclinic.org>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Authenticity
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:56:22 -0500
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

> However, when you try to "enforce" your standard of authenticity on others
you should expect resistance and hard feelings.  That is when some get
labeled as a "Nazi."  You can be authentic, correct in every way and lead by
example without being demeaning, overbearing and/or rude. In fact, there are
some (perhaps many)who do.

Resistance is one thing.  Calling someone a member of the worst example of
post-modern humanity on record is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.  It's even
worse if the person being called a Nazi is Jewish (which I'm not, but I've
seen it happen).

I expect resistance.  I cherish it, in fact, because it gives me
opportunities to teach about things I love that mundane life never will.
But there's a difference between resistance and slander.  One is
understandable, the other never.

Luciano

--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "Lady Simone ui' Dunlaingh" <simone at elfsea.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:53:40 -0700
Subject: [Ansteorra] The Journey (was SCA slang)
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

"If that's the way things are shaping up, we (the history crowd) can't
possibly win, and that's depressing."

It's not a win or lose competition I think, as more of a growing process.
We all start our Journey into the SCA for different reasons. We are a group
who's individuals comes from diverse social and economical backgrounds. We
all have one thing in common We each were introduced into the SCA and during
that introduction found an element of the SCA that became special for us.

For some it was the fighting, for others the arts, the costumes. the
history, the ability to serve, the unconditional acceptance by the people we
met, the tolerance shown by others, Seeing people living the Ideals of
honor, courtesy, and chivalry that we might have found missing in every day
life, socializing, the parties. The list could be increase at infinitum.
Regardless of what touched our Hearts. we each decided to Join in the dream
of the SCA and started our Journey into the current middle ages.

When I started my journey in the SCA I found a place were I was accepted
with all my faults, and fell in love with the fighting. I hated to read I
hated history and I had no Idea how to be a person of honor and integrity.
all these I learned over the years.
>From the "History crowd I learned to appreciate history and passed my first
history class because I no longer found it Boring.(hey I was 11). Having to
research what chivalry was opened my eyes to the wonders that I could only
find by reading a book. The artisans taught me new crafts I could do,I
stopped driving my mom nuts by saying I was Bored all the time I now had
something to do. and when my life turned upside down I had new friends that
helped me pick up the pieces.

Over the years I have grown in different areas in the SCA as I have grown up
in the real world. The Journey is a process of discovery one that takes us
from Mundanes to hopefully something better than we were when we started. We
learn to appreciate the history, the arts, the fighting, the service and the
 pageantry. We learn how to value the Ideal of the Society, The history of
the middle ages as well as the SCA history. Each of our individual talents,
skills assets and defects make up the Dream. how we chose to live and grow
in the dream makes up our own Journey.

We may not always get along or agree and that's OK. We may have very
contrasting opinions and that's OK to. on occasion we will cause offense to
someone that's part of life, and we can make amends for those times.
regardless of were we came from, what we do in the SCA we are all a part of
a wonderful group of people living a dream of the current middle ages. I for
one am grateful for you all even the ones I don't always agree with. for
without you there would not be an SCA as we know it today.

Lady Simone Maurian ui' Dunlaingh
simone at elfsea.net

--__--__--

Message: 10
From: "Theron Bretz" <tbretz at montroseclinic.org>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA slang
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:00:10 -0500
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

> Win? Is there a war going on?

Only figuratively in my overly-bellicose mind. It's been that sort of day.

Apologies to all on that item.

Luciano

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:03:28 -0500
From: "macthomas" <macthomas at mail.ev1.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA slang
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Very early in this thread, Pendaran and Annes shared their
viewpoints on the slang issues.  These are both very dear friends
of mine, and so I share my viewpoint.

Regarding "that place we check into an event and pay our money":

When speaking with my friend Pendaran, I will call this thing
a "gate".  If anyone comes to correct me, I will politely
acknowledge their dissenting opinion and continue to refer to it
as a "gate".

When speaking with my friend Annes, I will call this thing
a "troll".  If anyone comes to correct me, I will politely
acknowledge their dissenting opinion and continue to refer to it
as a "troll".

The point is, each of us has our personas, our way of playing it,
and our own version of the Dream to live out with it.  Just as the
Dream is this intangible something that ties us all together in
the SCA, a little different to everyone but still instantly
recognizable when it's mentioned, so it is with "that place we
check into an event and pay our money" - no matter what we choose
to call it.

Stephen

________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

--__--__--

Message: 12
From: "Theron Bretz" <tbretz at montroseclinic.org>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA slang
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:09:57 -0500
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

> from a observation perspective that stretches back many years ....

[snipped]

So, it's in part one of the left-over battle cries of the Society's
hippy-dippy past.  Anyone who was trying to kill your buzz was, at the least
a fascist pig, and at worst, a Nazi.

Stands to reason on some levels.

I'd like to think we've moved beyond that point though.

Incidentally, one of the maxims of the Internet states that any time in a
heated discussion, the term "Nazi" comes up, the discussion has decayed to
an irrecoverable point.  I'm pleased to observe this hasn't happened yet and
thank the folks who've offered reasoned responses to my POV.

Luciano

--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Christie Ward" <val_org at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Authenticity
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:12:06 -0500
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Iago said:
>However, when you try to "enforce" your standard of authenticity on others
>you should expect resistance and hard feelings.  That is when some get
>labeled as a "Nazi."  You can be authentic, correct in every way and lead
>by example without being demeaning, overbearing and/or rude. In fact, ther=
e
>are some (perhaps many)who do.

I'd like to point out that this is a two-way street that Iago is describing=
.

Those who want more authenticity should not try to shove authenticity down
the throats of others.

HOWEVER, if people who are into authenticity are "doing their thing", it is
equally abyssmal for others to trample all over what they're trying to do
with persona play by trotting out twinkie-fantasy language, blatant
references to modern technology, or Star Trek.  Treat persona play as a
species of performance art -- don't disrupt the performance.  Surely your
discussion of the new multi-terabyte storage you got for your PC, or your
discussion of your trip to the Shrine of St. John of the Swirling Waters,
could wait until you moved farther away?

*Both* sides of this particular ideological divide need to accomodate the
other.

::GUNNORA::

_________________________________________________________________
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--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:18:58 -0400
From: IagoAH at aol.com
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: Re: [Ansteorra] Authenticity
Reply-To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

I can accept that.  I foind several other groups to be as repulsive and evi=
l as the nazis, (same general ilk and filth) but that's another story.

Iago

>
>Resistance is one thing. =A0Calling someone a member of the worst example =
of
>post-modern humanity on record is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. =A0It's =
even
>worse if the person being called a Nazi is Jewish (which I'm not, but I've
>seen it happen).
>
>I expect resistance. =A0I cherish it, in fact, because it gives me
>opportunities to teach about things I love that mundane life never will.
>But there's a difference between resistance and slander. =A0One is
>understandable, the other never.
>
>Luciano

--__--__--

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