[Ansteorra] Re: Ansteorra Digest, Vol 26, Issue 55

Sun Jul 17 05:43:37 PDT 2005

I really don't think any of us are asking for anything more than reasonable accomodation.
More disabled privies, closer in to the happenings, less distance to travel from our campsites, and for someone to "walk the site, first , to make sure that there aren't excessive holes in the ground/dangerous ares, is not unreasonable.
Einin

gary and misty <dagrthora at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am by far not an expert, but I am pre-law, and it is my understanding that, yes we do have to abide by the A.D.A. However, a question of reasonableness also comes into play. Any organization is only expected to reasonably meet the needs of disabled individuals. This question of reasonableness is only able to be answered by a jury. There are times that, due to our limited locations and funds, the SCA is unable to meet all of the needs of certain individuals. We should do what we can, but not live in fear of a lawsuit just because there are certain things that can not reasonably be done. If there are any specific questions I may be able to help. I currently work for the City Attorney's office in Lawton, OK and I can ask my boss about specifics.

Thora Ottarsdottir

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: mobility issues and the law (L T)
2. Re: mobility issues (Suren-unegen (Majestic Fox))
3. Re: mobility issues (Baronman at aol.com)
4. Re: mobility issues and the law (Chass Brown)
5. RE: 2 Cents .... (Lady Einin Ciarnait)
6. Re: 2 Cents .... (L T)
7. RE: 2 Cents .... (L T)
8. Change Re: [Ansteorra] The Ansteorran "I just don't like this
thing" list (L T)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: L T 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues and the law
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <20050715180414.1743.qmail at web52307.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Chass,

Since you are familiar with it...can you find the regulation that applies
to the SCA on the ADA web site...please

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm

I didn't see a board ruling...but I haven't read all the board minutes.

Obiously you took it to the BoD...so they must have made a ruling on it...
can you direct me to where in the minutes I might find it...

I think you might be surprized at the number of people at Round Table who
keep abreast of board rulings...especially ones as prospectively as farreaching
and as potentially litigiously devestating to the SCA as ADA issues...and of course
our Kingdom Seneschal is one of them...

Also where did you find that we are not a private organization...it's been a while
since I read tax law...or is it in California law...since we are incorporated there?

Lorraine DeerSlayer

--- Chass Brown wrote:

> Ok to dispell this rumor. The only private organizations that are able to be 
> Excluded from the A.D.A. Are those who are allowed to exclude people by race 
> and or gender and were in place in the mid 60's or earlier. Since the SCA 
> has open enrollement it is NOT A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION. Therefore it does 
> have obey the A.D.A.. This has done been brought before the BOD and they 
> agree the S.C.A. is not immune to the A.D.A. laws. They and their multitude 
> of attnys would know far better than anyone in Round Table. The law does 
> apply. I am in constant contact with 3 A.D.A. experts one of which helped in 
> the writeing of the A.D.A. law that is in place currently.
> 
> Dispeller of rumoars and bad information of A.D.A.
> Chass aka Charinthalis Del Sans
> Muddeler of Mead
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Crouchet" 
> To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues and the law
> 
> 
> >I understand that the ADA law is not designed to apply to a private
> > organization such as ours. I'm sure the kingdom seneschal or chancellor
> > can offer more guidance on this. It might be a good question for
> > RoundTable.
> >
> > I am not advocating ignoring these needs simply because the law does not
> > apply, just pointing out that our goal should be helping our friends
> > rather than compliance with the ADA. Those are not always the same.
> >
> > James/Dore
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra mailing list
> Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra
> 

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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:06:07 -0500
From: "Suren-unegen (Majestic Fox)" 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <42D7FB0F.80709 at mongounegen.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yes, it would take some room to do so not much room to make it over 
crowded on the inner wall. The only issue I would have is the safety. 
What measures would we need to take in the event of something 
catastrophic were to happen. Not to be a kill joy but I would have to 
take some time and evaluate the possible risk the persons that would 
make use of the ramp.

-- 
In Service to the Dream
Süren Ünegen
Mongo Ünegen Jagün
Commanding
http://www.mongounegen.com

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:20:10 EDT
From: Baronman at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Message-ID: <89.2afa9604.3009585a at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 7/15/2005 1:14:50 PM Central Daylight Time, 
commander at mongounegen.com writes:

Not to be a kill joy but I would have to 
take some time and evaluate the possible risk the persons that would 
make use of the ramp.

HUH- I was thinking of the accessibility for the whole army on the outside 
of the castle-Like an assault ramp???? Never mind- bad joke
Bors

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:20:27 -0500
From: "Chass Brown" 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues and the law
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <000a01c58969$e0405110$6501a8c0 at CatLord>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

First off on the BOD issue contact Meg she can show you where the ruleing 
is, as for the other give me a couple hours to look through it again I had 
to do the same for the BOD.

Chass aka Charinthalis Del Sans

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "L T" 
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues and the law

> Chass,
>
> Since you are familiar with it...can you find the regulation that applies
> to the SCA on the ADA web site...please
>
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm
>
> I didn't see a board ruling...but I haven't read all the board minutes.
>
> Obiously you took it to the BoD...so they must have made a ruling on it...
> can you direct me to where in the minutes I might find it...
>
> I think you might be surprized at the number of people at Round Table who
> keep abreast of board rulings...especially ones as prospectively as 
> farreaching
> and as potentially litigiously devestating to the SCA as ADA issues...and 
> of course
> our Kingdom Seneschal is one of them...
>
> Also where did you find that we are not a private organization...it's been 
> a while
> since I read tax law...or is it in California law...since we are 
> incorporated there?
>
> Lorraine DeerSlayer
>
> --- Chass Brown wrote:
>
>> Ok to dispell this rumor. The only private organizations that are able to 
>> be
>> Excluded from the A.D.A. Are those who are allowed to exclude people by 
>> race
>> and or gender and were in place in the mid 60's or earlier. Since the SCA
>> has open enrollement it is NOT A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION. Therefore it does
>> have obey the A.D.A.. This has done been brought before the BOD and they
>> agree the S.C.A. is not immune to the A.D.A. laws. They and their 
>> multitude
>> of attnys would know far better than anyone in Round Table. The law does
>> apply. I am in constant contact with 3 A.D.A. experts one of which helped 
>> in
>> the writeing of the A.D.A. law that is in place currently.
>>
>> Dispeller of rumoars and bad information of A.D.A.
>> Chass aka Charinthalis Del Sans
>> Muddeler of Mead
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "James Crouchet" 
>> To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
>> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] mobility issues and the law
>>
>>
>> >I understand that the ADA law is not designed to apply to a private
>> > organization such as ours. I'm sure the kingdom seneschal or chancellor
>> > can offer more guidance on this. It might be a good question for
>> > RoundTable.
>> >
>> > I am not advocating ignoring these needs simply because the law does 
>> > not
>> > apply, just pointing out that our goal should be helping our friends
>> > rather than compliance with the ADA. Those are not always the same.
>> >
>> > James/Dore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ansteorra mailing list
>> Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
>> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lady Einin Ciarnait 

Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] 2 Cents ....
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <20050715182359.21731.qmail at web80506.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Wolf,
All of my thanks...you have stated so well the point I believe we have been trying to get across.
Why not ask someone to assist specifically with those details when stewarding an event...maybe even set up positions in the local and kingdom councils for this issue.

oh and since i seem to suffer from helium hand lately...I would be willing to interpret for the herals etc at events if sign would be of assistance and I have enough notice to be at the event. as long as I am not kept staanding for extended periods of time:)
Einin

Jay Yeates wrote:

-----Original Message-----
* ... The accesibility issue is not a courtesty issue it is a planning
issue. 
...
actually it's both ... courtesy is helping those less able than you are deal
with less than ideal situations (like bad sites). no different than holding
a door open for someone ...

* ... We've already got so many things that HAVE to be covered....it's a
herculean task to steward an event and keep your sanity...
...
so, because the stewards are so overworked, the reasonable needs of some of
the members become a non issue? as the game gets more complex and the
demographics shift to a older population, those tasks are only going to get
more complex. the solution is not to dig in heels and say "we're doing
enough already" .. it's opening the process to "how can we do better" -
especially for those that need it the most. 

most of those HAVE's mentioned cater to the able. if there are no more
resources, then scale back some of those amenities and redirect them to
those that truly need them.

* ... Sure you want special ammenities...but Ansteorra as a whole has
gripped everytime the general site fees raise...if you want more you have to
pay more...
...
the operant ADA term is REASONABLE accommodation .. and most of the requests
so far have sounded pretty reasonable - for example better siteing of
toilets with consideration for those who are mobility impaired, adding more
wheelchair accessible portable toilets in place of standard, more
consideration for hall layouts, consideration for close in parking and
camping spaces for those who need them, maybe having some volunteers on-call
will to lend a hand to mobility impaired folk ... most of which won't raise
prices, just requires shuffling of existing resources. 

* ... And BTW we do not fall under ADA or EEO or alot of other governmental
regulation...because we are a private organization that does not take money
from the Government...
...
just because you are not required by law to do a thing, does not mean you
should not do it .. sometimes you do because it's the right thing to do, not
what's mandated. isn't that the core of the ideal of "nobility" as the game
uses it? isn't it about time to better put it into practice? especially as
it is increasingly required ..... 

'wolf
.. abled, but may not be some day

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:27:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: L T 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] 2 Cents ....
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <20050715182746.25555.qmail at web52306.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I'll be at Queens...if you're there...you can collect a hug or two!

I'd like to see the BoD ruling too...

I was perusing the ADA site and saw the stuff about Religious buildings but nothing that looked
like it applied to us...

I think Annes would gladly take one of those pins and put it in a the Museum stuff!!!
She'll probably be at Queens too... 

In many ways I wish we could just "play the
game" and not have to take all the laws, rules, and regulations into account every durn step we
take in the SCA...makes things incredibly complicated!
No wonder it is hard for us to get people to take offisorial positions...

So much for the SCA just being a game or hobby...too much upkeep for either of these...sigh...

Lorraine DeerSlayer

making things 
a 
private organization that
does not take money from the 
> Government...
> 
> Lorraine DeerSlayer
> Either do churches but try to build a new one without meeting ADA standards 
> and you won't get a building permit. I would like to see an official legal 
> opnion on our culpability or if not that- then a BOD ruling. ( See previous 
> post concerning the BOD and Gulf Wars)
> Speaking of the BOD- was cleaning up the SCA room and came across one of 
> Inman's old " F_ck the BOD" pins. Wonder if it should go into the Ansteorra 
> memorabelia museum?
> 
> Bors- who needs a Lorraine hug the next time he sees her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra mailing list
> Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra
> 

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:30:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: L T 
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] 2 Cents ....
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <20050715183012.26248.qmail at web52306.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

So wolf, since you are being vocal agian...are you planning on coming out anytime soon?

Many of us would like to meet you...

Lorraine DeerSlayer

--- Jay Yeates wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> * ... The accesibility issue is not a courtesty issue it is a planning
> issue. 
> ...
> actually it's both ... courtesy is helping those less able than you are deal
> with less than ideal situations (like bad sites). no different than holding
> a door open for someone ...
> 
> 
> * ... We've already got so many things that HAVE to be covered....it's a
> herculean task to steward an event and keep your sanity...
> ...
> so, because the stewards are so overworked, the reasonable needs of some of
> the members become a non issue? as the game gets more complex and the
> demographics shift to a older population, those tasks are only going to get
> more complex. the solution is not to dig in heels and say "we're doing
> enough already" .. it's opening the process to "how can we do better" -
> especially for those that need it the most. 
> 
> most of those HAVE's mentioned cater to the able. if there are no more
> resources, then scale back some of those amenities and redirect them to
> those that truly need them.
> 
> 
> * ... Sure you want special ammenities...but Ansteorra as a whole has
> gripped everytime the general site fees raise...if you want more you have to
> pay more...
> ...
> the operant ADA term is REASONABLE accommodation .. and most of the requests
> so far have sounded pretty reasonable - for example better siteing of
> toilets with consideration for those who are mobility impaired, adding more
> wheelchair accessible portable toilets in place of standard, more
> consideration for hall layouts, consideration for close in parking and
> camping spaces for those who need them, maybe having some volunteers on-call
> will to lend a hand to mobility impaired folk ... most of which won't raise
> prices, just requires shuffling of existing resources. 
> 
> 
> * ... And BTW we do not fall under ADA or EEO or alot of other governmental
> regulation...because we are a private organization that does not take money
> from the Government...
> ...
> just because you are not required by law to do a thing, does not mean you
> should not do it .. sometimes you do because it's the right thing to do, not
> what's mandated. isn't that the core of the ideal of "nobility" as the game
> uses it? isn't it about time to better put it into practice? especially as
> it is increasingly required ..... 
> 
> 'wolf
> .. abled, but may not be some day
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra mailing list
> Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra
> 

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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: L T 
Subject: Change Re: [Ansteorra] The Ansteorran "I just don't like this
thing" list
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
Message-ID: <20050715183812.27426.qmail at web52305.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Sounds like it's time for us all to counter the contention with something positive...

Hmmm...

I would like to commend Don Brian on being an excellent example of a Baronial
Rapier Champion!

Lorraine
Vicaress Raven's Fort

--- "cyranobcc at netzero.com" wrote:

> 
> Gerald, have you been into the secret stash again?
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Surfing so fast you won't believe it's not broadband!
> Try NetZero HiSpeed 3G.
> Visit http://www.netzero.com to sign up today!
> 
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> 

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End of Ansteorra Digest, Vol 26, Issue 55
*****************************************

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