[Ansteorra] Motivations (was: Love and recognition)

Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace sirlyonel at hotmail.com
Tue Sep 26 12:24:26 PDT 2006


Salut cozyns,

I would like to second Sieur Jean-Paul's sentiment (although, considering 
the speed with which my posts make it to the list, I'll have to be satisfied 
with fourthing or fifthing his sentiment).

I don't agree with the Objectivist view that no one does anything for 
altruistic reasons, but I do believe that altruism is a form of enlightened 
self-interest. Unless I'm urgently needed somewhere else, I've always made a 
point of stopping to help people in need: opening doors, jump-starting dead 
batteries, rendering first aid, pushing stalled cars off the road, changing 
tires. I have two reasons for doing this, and they're both selfish:

1) I have something of a White Knight complex. Deep down I'll always want to 
be the Lone Ranger, walking away from a scene amid 
who-was-that-masked-stranger whispers.

2) I believe in social karma. Do Unto Others increases the likelihood of 
receiving help when I need it or when someone I care about needs it. Every 
time I jump-start a dead battery for a stranger I increase the odds that 
someone will be there to jump-start my dead battery or my wife's or my 
daughter's.

In all fairness, however, Kat did specifically call out "self-glorification 
at the expense of others." Going back to my original statements about 
motive. Yes, a trail of bodies would be a good clue that the individual in 
question should not be considered for an award. I worry about parallax, 
though. Let me give you an example I've seen in many places in the SCA 
(including a half-dozen examples right here in various parts of Ansteorra):

A Key Player in a group begins to promote a New Way. Key Player gather's a 
Big Cadre around himself, and Big Cadre grows to become the most powerful 
group in his region (either through sheer numbers or by developing or 
recruiting influential members.) Key Player works hard to promote the New 
Way and to support other efforts of Big Cadre members. Big Cadre overwhelms 
other cadres who do not support the New Way. Other cadres die out, move 
away, or hang around complaining that they've been disenfranchised.

Most members of Big Cadre consider Key Player a hero. Players from the 
disenfranchised cadres consider Key Player a selfish bastard. Occasionally 
you'll find a small minority of players within Big Cadre who will tell you 
that Key Player was *once* a hero but is now a Little Tin God.

I've been a member of at least three Big Cadres. In one of those, I was Key 
Player. In another, I was affiliated with a Big Cadre that left a bunch of 
my friends feeling disenfranchised.

If you're on the outside looking in, you'll have to decide for yourself who 
to believe. In any case, you're stuck once again sifting motives. My 
original point was not that we shouldn't try to determine motivation. My 
point was simply that we have to be damned careful how we go about it. When 
you decide that you've figured out another's motives, you need to step back 
and ask yourself how much you've ascribed to evil what should have been 
ascribed to ignorance, error, and parallax.

lo vostre per vos servir
Meser Lyonel
_________________________________
Micel yfel deth se unwritere.
		--AElfric of York





>From: "Jean Paul de Sens" <jeanpauldesens at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." 
><ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
>To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Motivations (was: Love and recognition)
>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:52:25 -0500
>
>Kat, this touches on a point of mine I guess.  I just honestly don't 
>believe
>in "selflessness".  To perform an action "selflessly" you would have to do
>an action without the hope of any positive feedback whatsoever, nor even
>with the removal of negative feedback.  I don't believe people work that
>way.  Many people confuse "actions with indirect benefits" to "acting
>selflessly".
>
>I do believe in "making sacrifices for the greater good" and "working for
>the good of the group" but I do so knowing that I will benefit either
>directly or indirectly or both.  I work in the SCA because this group has
>given a lot in my life, and I believe in working to make it better and more
>fun.   But I don't do so with absolutely no hope of reward whatsoever.  The
>reward might simply be "the group continues" or "the group grows.", but
>there will be the hope for reward nonetheless in my actions.  I give gifts
>to my friends and relatives to make them happy, and to enjoy the feeling 
>*I*
>get when I make someone happy.  It gives me good feelings to help others,
>and to find things that delight or please them.
>
>When I tell people these things, they say "Well, that's not really
>selfish."  I reply, "Yes it is.  Selfishness is not evil, but a rational
>application of it combined can be extremely positivie."
>
>So is my selfishness which helps others better or worse than doing nothing?
>I hope so.
>
>JP
>
>
>On 9/26/06, Lori Campbell <countesskat at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > In an ideal world it wouldn't matter what a person's motives are as
> > long as the jobs that need doing get done, right?  The SCA could be a
> > truly glorious, mystical, happy place, with everyone working, secure in
> > the idea that recognition comes to every deserving person in due time.
> > No one would ever get hurt by the selfishness we see so often in the
> > modern world.
> >
> > But the SCA hasn't succeeded very well in shedding real world values in
> > favor of that idyllic dream-like existence.  People bring their
> > impatience, their ambition, their sense of entitlement, etc. into the
> > society with them.  Those values color their actions and motivations
> > and even when the end product of their work is good, they didn't always
> > get there in a nice, pretty fashion.
> >
> > It is sad, but I've seen people willing to seek their own
> > self-glorification at someone else's expense.  That, in the end, is why
> > motives matter.
> >
> > No, we can't sit back and figure out what motivates a person to do what
> > they do, but we can count the bloody bodies they leave behind.  It
> > becomes "how many people had to be hurt in some way so this person
> > could get an award?"  Sometimes the answer is "none" and selfish
> > motivations don't hurt anyone.  Other times, the body count is high
> > even when someone has technically done the work required to receive
> > recognition.
> >
> > When a Crown recognizes someone with an award, they are essentially
> > saying "see what this person did? They set the standard. They are the
> > example we all strive for."  Rewarding selfishness breeds more
> > selfishness and, IMO, that is contrary to the values we really want to
> > create here in our idyllic society.  The SCA is an attempt to create
> > something *better* than what we've all experienced "out there," right?
> >
> >
> > Baron Malcolm Alberic of Caid wrote a really good article on Awards in
> > the SCA (http://www.dreiburgen.org/articles/awards.html).  It makes a
> > clear point that SCA awards are about selflessness, not about things
> > that are self-serving or self-aggrandizing.   It also makes mention of
> > our system vs. the "merit badge" system, which was also a topic of
> > discussion on this list not too long ago.
> >
> > Kat M.
> >
> >
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>
>
>
>--
>I want to fight and to strive, to vie with my opponents and friends, and at
>the end of the day cry out "ENOUGH!!! For I can lift my arms no longer"
>
>That is what is good in life.
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