[Ansteorra] Ansteorra Digest, Vol 11, Issue 48

M G gaddis_m at yahoo.com
Sun Mar 25 10:49:32 PDT 2007


For legal comcerns about disablity issues I would suggest Advocacy Inc. You can call them in Houston at 713-974-7691 or on the web just type in their name. As a future would be lawyler I would like to suggest what any attorney would suggest that any one who is not an attorney and willing to take the case that seems to be the issue here refrain from quoting case law and giving legal advice with the exception of to see an attorney and referring which one to see. Other wise you run a serious risk of giving unqualified advice and making a difficult situation worse
Thank you and see you later


----- Original Message ----
From: "ansteorra-request at lists.ansteorra.org" <ansteorra-request at lists.ansteorra.org>
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 12:08:29 PM
Subject: Ansteorra Digest, Vol 11, Issue 48


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  SCA, the ADA, and all of us (Chass)
   2. Re:  SCA, the ADA, and all of us (Chass)
   3. Re:  Gulf Wars Profits was Re:  New Trend flyer apology (Chass)
   4. Re:  ADA compliant sites (was new trend flyer apology) (Chass)
   5. Re:  Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer apology
      (Ceallach mac Donal)
   6. Re:  Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer apology
      (Jean Paul de Sens)
   7. Re:  Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer apology (Chass)
   8. Re:  SCA, the ADA, and all of us (Judie Willey)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:21:45 -0600
From: "Chass" <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA, the ADA, and all of us
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'"
    <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <006301c76f02$126fc100$4101a8c0 at chass>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

    Have you not read a word put in or only the part you wanted to try
and nit pick? I have shown several sites in the NR that are cheaper than
the ones used and they are accessible and are A.D.A. approved sites.
Financial burden is something you need to research case law, just so you
know. It has to be a significant financial burden as set by the SCOTUS
(Supreme Court of the United States). That has only been won 2 times as
a defense. Both were major high priced stores, the rest who have tried
to use that in court have lost.

Chass Brown A.K.A. 

Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable chariot. 

Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark.

Muddeler of Mead


-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Pug Bainter
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 7:54 AM
To: 'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA, the ADA, and all of us

Sorry. This got sent a tad early. The section of the FAQ is:

Q. Are there any limitations on the ADA's auxiliary aids requirements?

A. Yes. The ADA does not require the provision of any auxiliary aid that
would result in an undue burden or in a fundamental alteration in the
nature
of the goods or services provided by a public accommodation.

This means increased financial burden is a very reasonable exclusion to
a
site within the context of the SCA. A small amount may not seem like
much to
many people, but we have enough problems getting people to pay the
increased
site costs because of the inflation of site costs, but every hundred
dollars
a site costs could increase the fee people pay by $1 and lower
attendance to
the point that the group doesn't make money.

Ciao,
Pug




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:22:31 -0600
From: "Chass" <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA, the ADA, and all of us
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'"
    <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <006401c76f02$2cd47f90$4101a8c0 at chass>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

     While you are partially right, there are areas your are completely
wrong. As for the Unreasonable requests... the next time they are made a
judge will have to decide :) and I am sure the SCA would lose (Also gulf
wars 2 years ago wouldn't have been as bad an issue had the Autocrat not
lied then the BOD lied to cover it up until I pointed it all out to them
to try and get the truth of the situation, with the emails showing both
parties had lied, and no I am not threatening to sue). The policy the
BOD put in is undergoing changes. They are discussing with an A.D.A.
specialty group of Attny's. The real law on access is " Equal Access
Equal Enjoyment". Lets say like the cooking college Ansteorra had. It
was in a building that had nothing but stairs, and most of the cooking
classes were on the second floor. That's a violation since we did not
have access to the classes. If it's a multi story building and they are
holding something like judging for A&S etc on the second floor as it is
part of the event... and we do not have access it's a violation. Now
here is you an example... Camp Cimmeron... Now there is no access to
anything but one cabin.  Camp fire camps and Boy scout camps are not
immune to the A.D.A. by the way. I can not access the latrine, I can not
access the Feast hall (now since the little wooden ramp they had is
gone) and the site is in such disrepair my chair has a real real
difficult time getting around.

     You pointed out where sites like religious grounds are immune to
A.D.A. . Yes a Church is immune to the A.D.A., BUT the group who rents
it for use is not, and can be sued for denying equal access. There is
enough case law to support that suit and the SCA can't win. That's why
the BOD is trying to get regulation on access for choosing a site. Also
pug for a group that is supposed to be about chivalry, people asking for
equal access is always a fight and we always wind up being flamed on or
off list. Is that not odd? I know the normal thought patterns is "Your
disabled you should be out of sight and out of mind", I am not that way,
and there are more and more like me, some who will lay a law suit
against the SCA and cost it its 501-c status and a ton of money. I was
very active in the SCA before I broke my back, it has taken me 3 1/2
years to figure out how to be active again. Again I point out there
should never be grounds for a site we choose to have "Not Handicapped
Friendly" in the advertising. Also pug Minimum Access is not Equal
Access. The law is for Equal Access. 


Chass Brown A.K.A. 

Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable chariot. 

Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark.

Muddeler of Mead


-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Pug Bainter
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 7:41 AM
To: 'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA, the ADA, and all of us

I'm gonna try to keep my dander under control again this time.



Here is a post I made on this two years ago about this topic, which some
try
to get others to provide them service under a law that many laymen don't
understand. This is followed by the corporate policy from the governing
documents on accessibility which arose from what I think were
unreasonable
requests for GulfWar 2 years ago.



This policy explicitly sites "while preserving the fundamental nature of
the
SCA event". If the SCA were to deny you a generator while allowing
others,
that would be against the ADA, but keeping an isolated environment from
the
outside world to immerse people in the "mood" is completely reasonable.
This
is just like allowing people the use of scooters at GulfWar without
allowing
them their own personal golf cart as being reasonable.



As well, something to keep in mind when looking at sites is another item
from the FAQ:





The ADA is all about reasonable access and not *total* access. For
example:



- not all parts of a restaurant have to be accessible

- not all bathrooms/stalls have to be accessible

- not all floors of a building have to be accessible



As well, the section that covers what we are talking about falls under
the
ADA FAQ section at:



What are public accommodations?



A. A public accommodation is a private entity that owns, operates,

   leases, or leases to, a place of public accommodation. Places of
public

   accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants,

   hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, pharmacies, retail stores,
museums,

   libraries, parks, private schools, and day care centers. Private
clubs

   and religious organizations are exempt from the ADA's title III

   requirements for public accommodations.



Please note that many of the private areas we rent, including religious
organizations, are explicitly exempt. There are restrictions on *new*
constructions to try to ensure they are compliant but not retrofit old
sites
unless required by law. Some businesses and churches will try to make
reasonable accommodations under the ADA in order to be more diverse even
when they are not required to.



As for events such as Gulf War and Pennsic, there are services provided
by
the staff to accommodate people who need assistance such as mobility
services. The ADA is *not* about making sure that a person can do
everything
themself, but that there are measures in place *if* required by the ADA.
It
is also *not* about giving them the easiest choice but a reasonable
choice.





XIII. POLICY ON ACCESSIBILITY TO SOCIETY FUNCTIONS



The SCA, Inc. will not discriminate against any member or participant on
the
basis of race, sex, religion,

national origin, age or disability. The SCA, Inc. will comply with all
laws
of the nation in which the meeting or

event is held. For any meeting or event held in the United States, the
SCA,
Inc. will comply with the

Americans with Disabilities Act. The SCA, Inc. will provide reasonable
accommodations to qualified

individuals with disabilities to enable all participants to fully enjoy
the
events whenever it is possible to do so.

The SCA, Inc. will at all times attempt to provide reasonable
accommodations, while preserving the

fundamental nature of the SCA event.





Ciao,

Pug




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:24:49 -0600
From: "Chass" <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Gulf Wars Profits was Re:  New Trend flyer
    apology
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'"
    <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <006501c76f02$7f218770$4101a8c0 at chass>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Because he is not renting the site for free. Simply put the law is the
law and he should comply. The A.D.A. has been in effect for over 16
years. If he is going to open the site to use it should be accessible. 

Chass Brown A.K.A. 

Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable chariot. 

Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark.

Muddeler of Mead


-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Jean Paul de
Sens
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:06 AM
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
Subject: [Ansteorra] Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer apology

I've this and similar quotes many times

On 3/24/07, Chass <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Like Gulf Wars.. he makes money hand over fist for us
> using that site. They could fix the site to become A.D.A. compliant.

Chass Brown
>

and I wonder, "Says who?"  Are these just the statements of those who
look
at the $50 gate fee, multiple it by 3000 people, and say "They must make
*tons* of money!!"?

Why do I keep hearing people say this?  Does anyone know and could share
how
much the owner does or doesn't profit.  Actually, honestly, it's not
really
our business, but I get tired of hearing this statement made by people
when
I suspect that they don't know how much profit goes to the site owner.

JP




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:27:58 -0600
From: "Chass" <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] ADA compliant sites (was new trend flyer
    apology)
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'"
    <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <006601c76f02$ef15ceb0$4101a8c0 at chass>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Because of my pain levels I still suffer from and the fact my meds
zombified me most of the time I could not do the office what it needs. I
am very well aware of my limitation. If it were not for these problems I
would lead by example (but since my stance I doubt the Baronies and
their cantons would accept me as a autocrat bidder). I have given the
groups a list of sites, I have made sure they were accessible. Is that
not offering assistance? I am being proactive not just griping or
throwing a fit.

Chass Brown A.K.A. 

Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable chariot. 

Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark.

Muddeler of Mead


-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer
Carlson
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:11 AM
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] ADA compliant sites (was new trend flyer apology)


My Lord Chass,

Since you have already researched ADA sites in northern Ansteorra, why
not 
lead by example and autocrat a kingdom event?

The best way to get folks excited about a new site is to bring them to
it.  
Lord Ragnar spent quite some time trying convince people to try out the 
Cleveland Boy Scout Camp - now the SCA uses it about four times a year.

In servicio,

Dunstana Talana the Violet




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:55:32 -0500
From: "Ceallach mac Donal" <ceallach at dwarfworks.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer
    apology
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID:
    <53ae68ad0703250955h22983cddvb1ccec8df9d86ee at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Personally I'm curious as to how the site was not generally accessible.
There was a handicapped camping area with electricity access & handicapped
accessible porta potties.  The streets were well over 36" wide ;-}
Were there no handicap accessible showers?  What was the problem?

Just curious,
Ceallach mac Donal


On 3/25/07, Chass <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Because he is not renting the site for free. Simply put the law is the
> law and he should comply. The A.D.A. has been in effect for over 16
> years. If he is going to open the site to use it should be accessible.
>
> Chass Brown A.K.A.
>
> Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable chariot.
>
> Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark.
>
> Muddeler of Mead
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:59:35 -0500
From: "Jean Paul de Sens" <jeanpauldesens at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer
    apology
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID:
    <2e756a790703250959p3e36e01dv56a5dadf2514057a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

You'll notice I retitled this thread right?  I'm not asking about ADA
stuff.  I was inquiring about people's "certain knowledge" that the owner is
making tons of money off of us, and as such, owe's us consideration.  While
I don't mind you continuing on your thread, I wished to start a different
line of conversation, a tangent if you will.

JP

On 3/25/07, Chass <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Because he is not renting the site for free. Simply put the law is the
> law and he should comply. The A.D.A. has been in effect for over 16
> years. If he is going to open the site to use it should be accessible.
>
> Chass Brown A.K.A.
>


-- 
There are no simple answers, but there are many simple questions.


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:07:14 -0600
From: "Chass" <charinthalis at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer
    apology
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'"
    <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <000501c76f08$6b7b9070$4101a8c0 at chass>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Again see the msg they put in all flyers "Not Handicapped Friendly". I
worked with them on changing the flyer so they didn't violate the law
over their Service dog Policy. My part of the problem with the site is a
lady 2 years ago was stuck on the main trail for 2 hours while on her
way to the porta-johns. She had several people walk by her and offer no
assistance. Since I broke my back I have not been able to attend but we
do plan on attending next year with my reasonable accommodations and the
BOD in tow :)


Chass Brown A.K.A. 

Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable chariot. 

Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark.

Muddeler of Mead


-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Ceallach mac
Donal
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:56 AM
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Gulf Wars Profits was Re: New Trend flyer
apology

Personally I'm curious as to how the site was not generally accessible.
There was a handicapped camping area with electricity access &
handicapped
accessible porta potties.  The streets were well over 36" wide ;-}
Were there no handicap accessible showers?  What was the problem?

Just curious,
Ceallach mac Donal




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:08:25 -0500
From: "Judie Willey" <littledragon0861 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA, the ADA, and all of us
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID:
    <51628dbd0703251008x30036533gb28db4b52fe7f33c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

By the Way..one more point...
I am all for having only the large "handicapped privies"...I have all to
often needed the use of one of these( I still have to use grab bars to avoid
falling in the toilet) and been unable to because the only  handicapped
privy was being used  as a changing stall...or by a lady wearing hoops under
her gown. I fully understand that it is difficult to use the regular privy
with hoops btw...but it does make it more difficult for those of us who need
the handicapped privies. I have also been in situations where all the
privies were unoccupied, and a person who could have used the regular
privies, walked into the handicapped one instead. So for the convienence of
all, wh not spend the extra $10.00 each and only get the ones that are
handiacapped accessable.

OH and someone really needs to tell the company which makes them, that they
need to be even a bit larger than they already are...try closing the door
even to one of the supposedly handicapped privies when you have a hip to toe
cast on your leg...ya cant do it ( I spent one year at Darkwell  War with my
foot sticking out the door any time I had to use the privy)

and maybe we should consider rigging some sort of curtained changing area at
events so the privies don't need to be used for this purpose?

YIS
Hadassah



On 3/25/07, Judie Willey <littledragon0861 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Greetings to the list,
>
> I have been folowing this thread, and while I can see both sides of the
> coin...we need to stop the bickering and see what we can do on the positive
> side of this issue.
>
> I have been playing for a long time, and I agree that most of us aren't
> getting any younger ( ok how old do we have to be to start counting
> backwards here? ) and I also agree that we need to look for sites to
> include, rather than exclude  those with disabilities. I may not have some
> of the more serious health problems that some of our members  have, but
> having had a total knee replacement, I can appreciate the difficulties in
> getting around.
>
> Also having lived in the desert, I can appreciate the need for showers,
> especially in hotter weather, to assist in preventing heat exhaustion, not
> just for the fighters, but for others who may not realize they are getting
> overheated until too late. Not to mention that they are just plain nice to
> have :)
>
> And face it, flushies are just plain nice to have, especially late at
> night on a saturday after the drinkers have been in the privies...
>
> At the same time, I can also appreciate the ambiance of not having these
> modern convienences..it does help us to "play the game " better without the
> modern reminders.
>
> But personally, I would far rather have some of those "modern reminders"
> for that type of reason, than to see someone in beautiful garb, walking
> around chatting on a cell phone, or to overhear a conversation about video
> games, computers and the latest doo dad on someones car. Face it...we have
> gone way past people even attempting to stay in persona  and when you do see
> someone stay in persona it is very rare.
>
> I have seen the complaints about people not using period tents, or period
> covers on coolers...or jjeans tennis shoes and t tunics. Have we forgotten
> the origins of the SCA? Many people can't afford to go out and spend 4 or 5
> thousand dollars on a period pavillion, or garb right away...and many might
> not want to spend a lot on garb for something they may decide isn't for
> them.
>
> We pressure our newcomers about what they have or don't have, or what they
> are wearing, instead of using the chivalry we are supposed to be espousing,
> and so we frighten them off. We post threads such as this to the list, which
> cause hurt feelings and a feeling of inadequecy to those who are unable to
> use more primitive sites, rather than looking for solutions which every one
> ( or at least most of us) can be happy with.
>
> OK time to get off my soapbox now...this is just my 2 shekels worth here
> Yours in Service
> Rebbe Hadassah bas Yossi
> MoC
> Steppes
>
>
>  On 3/25/07, Monica Riney <monicariney at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > There has been many good points made with this thread.  Thank you Master
> > Pug
> > for giving us the nitty gritty.  When it comes to ADA there are many of
> > us
> > that feel very strongly about it.  I am a mother of a young lady that is
> > confined to a wheelchair.  This is a topic very near and dear to my
> > heart.
> > We try our best to scope out a site to see what type of aid we have to
> > give
> > her.  There are certain sites that she just can't go to.  This is the
> > same
> > no matter where we go, ie: shopping malls, fishing docks, resturants,
> > parks,
> > etc.
> >
> > The ADA started at a point in time.  There are exceptions and
> > exemptions.
> > That is just how it is.  In a perfect world everything would have ADA
> > compliance.  All new facilities must be in compliance with the
> > Act.  Even at
> > that, they are limited.  Those of us who live with the needs of a
> > disabled
> > family member or friend are quite aware of this.  I, personally, do not
> > feel
> > that I must make everyone comply with the AD Act.
> >
> > As stated, it is nice for people to look out for our disabled
> > members.  I
> > know that it is one of the things that the Barony of Elfsea looks
> > at.  We
> > have several members of our populace that are in wheelchairs.  But at
> > the
> > same time, we really like the ambiance that a primitive site can
> > give.  It
> > is all give and take and we all pitch in to help those of us that need
> > help.
> >
> > Just my .02 cents,
> >
> > Rosalia
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ansteorra mailing list
> > Ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
> > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-ansteorra.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Rebbe Hadassah Sarai bas Yossi
> MoC Barony of Steppes




-- 
Rebbe Hadassah Sarai bas Yossi
MoC Barony of Steppes


------------------------------

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End of Ansteorra Digest, Vol 11, Issue 48
*****************************************


 
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