[Ansteorra] Sad Kingdom Law Change

Richard Threlkeld rjt at softwareinnovation.com
Sun Feb 15 12:04:17 PST 2009


Actually, this was debated and discussed greatly through most of 2008 on the
Chirurgeon and Waterbearer lists and some on other lists. I was against it,
but I have to admit there was a lot of transparency. Most people discussing
it missed the point, however. It was not liability per se. It was the
actions of the modern bureaucracies (particularly in Texas). 

In Texas, they were tasked by the legislature to investigate and regulate
the furnishing of food (and water was defined as a food by FDA regulations)
to others whether for profit or not. They were not given any money to do
this. They were told they could investigate if there was one complaint and
must investigate if there were more than one. They tried to charge the costs
to the complainer, but that had the undesirable side effect of dampening
(ignore the pun) complaints. So the only one left is the one being
investigated. So the cost of the investigation is put on the group or
individual being investigated whether or not they turn out to have done
anything wrong. That cost is usually over $10,000 for the investigator's
time, lab work, site visits, interviews, etc.

They don't go after individuals (so far), but they do go after organized
groups including church groups, scout groups, and other non-profits (like
us). That is a lot of cost when you have done nothing wrong.

Other states and countries had similar issues. Since feasts were done
individually by the head cooks who were not doing a warranted function of
the group at the time, the food was furnished and prepared by individuals
(even though the money was advanced and collected by the group). This ruling
puts water bearers in approximately the same position. Of course, any good
lawyer will try to sue the SCA if they sue the cooks/water bearers, but
suing is not the question here. The regulatory structure did not follow that
logic (or illogic).

Note the Seneschal is still responsible for enforcing whatever laws are
applicable at the site of any SCA event. So they must enforce food (and
water) sanitation regulations, general health regulations, etc. Whether they
know the applicable laws is another matter. They may choose to ask people
who have training from whatever source to help with water bearing and allow
them to use local group supplies to ensure their event is not breaking laws
- or not. But a warranted officer is not in charge of the actual providing
of water as part of their job as an officer of the SCA.

In service,
Caelin on Andrede

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces+rjt=softwareinnovation.com at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces+rjt=softwareinnovation.com at lists.ansteorra.org] On
Behalf Of Vicki Marsh
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 13:30 PM
To: 'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Sad Kingdom Law Change

In reply to Iago and others who responded to my questions:
On Feb 14, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Mistress Xene wrote:
    <The first is to comply with the change at the Society level to remove

    reference to the office of Waterbearer. >




    This poses some interesting questions:

  No, it really doesn't.

    Perhaps it doesn't require thought and questioning on your part, but
there are some who might want to know and understand the decision-making
process behind those who sometimes seemingly make decisions arbitrarily. I
was attempting to open discussion and foster a transparency in the
governance of the SCA that has been quite lacking of late.

    I, too, believe very strongly in self-regulation, self-determination and
self-care. Less Bureaucracy is a *good thing*, just like lower taxes are a
*good thing*. However, handing down a policy change in any organization is
best done with addressing questions about the change at the same time, or
even prior to the implementation of said change.

    5) Or is this a precursor to the Society-wide demise of the
Chirurgeonate,

    as well?

  While I know and like a number of chiurgeons, the ones like those who
didn't want my friend the RN tend to me when my knee went, (or my other
friend the MD) need to go.

  I'm sorry you had an issue with a chirurgeon. Last time I was warranted
and active, stepping aside to allow an injured victim to pick their
preferred method of care was always part of the standard training within the
Chirurgeonate.

   7) Are YOU willing to drink from an unknown water supply, that may or may
not be properly disinfected or cared for?
  How has this changed?  Does taking away their office suddenly make someone
sloppy? I think not. She'll still be just as careful, and just as hard
working.

   No, it might not make him or her sloppy, but it might remove the
incentive to attend training on proper procedures. Not everyone is a
sanitation engineer or chemist.

  One of the reasons that chirurgeons in the past went through an
apprenticeship and training was to ensure that they understood best
practices in emergency care, modern laws that govern  the rules of the SCA,
as well as the temperment to represent the group well. Before it became an
office, any EMT wannabe could call themselves a chirurgeon and leap onto the
field, pushing themselves into the fighter and marshall's faces. It became
very bad for awhile. So as a group, we tried to self-regulate and train
others using best practices.
    If no one is in charge, then no one is responsible or liable. Especially
the

    SCA, Inc.

  That would be the point. The SCA can get sued when one of it's officers
screws up.
   Isn't an event steward a warranted officer for the duration of the event?
In any event, the SCA , Inc. can get sued no matter what. Ask any attorney.

  Iago
  Who thinks water bearers are awesome, office or no.

  Xene, who believes in open, honest, and transparent bureacracy. And likes
asking questions.....and bugging friends......and trying to look at change
from all directions.
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