[Ansteorra] armour materials, was Gauging interest for a Cut Test BBQ

[James Crouchet]

This is actually several questions in one. I think I can speak to two parts
of it.

First, I understand that arrows did not generally penetrate plate armor.
Some arrows may have penetrated some plate armor at a given range but in
general the plate stopped or deflected the arrows. This was originally
pointed out to me during a conversation I had with a historical metallurgist
while visiting the armory at Leads where he worked. He also said he had
spent considerable time going over historical records of battles where they
recorded the cause of death for persons of note (i.e. those likely to be
wearing plate armor) and found very few who died by arrow and none where a
penetration of the plate was mentioned. Generally if they did die by arrow
it was to the head (presumably the unprotected face).

This is not to say that arrows were not decisive in these battles; disabling
his horse or wounding his arm or leg might not kill him but it should
greatly reduce his combat effectiveness and odds of survival.

Second, I have seen some historical programs where they did test various
swords against plate armor and found that to penetrate one needed to use two
handed techniques such as half-swording. I can't speak to the validity of
their armor samples, reproduction swords or attack techniques but I think it
did make the point that armor generally does it's job and stops most thrusts
and slashes.

So that leaves questions of what firearms do to armor. I have heard a
variety of things and although I have two guns appropriate to our period I
am embarrassed to admit I have not tested them against armor.

One final note: if anyone does plan to test any sort of firearm against
metal armor please do so from within a protective enclosure. Sometimes when
bullets hit metal they -- or pieces of them -- go in random directions. For
an extreme (yet amusing) example, see this video: (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc)

Doré

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Haraldr Bassi <
ansteorra at haraldr.drakkar.org> wrote:

> Very interesting stuff. Not an area I've personally researched but your
> data does raise a question in my mind... is it possible that the hardened
> steel was knowingly discontinued due to a change in the types of weapons
> needing to defend against? I would expect hardened to resist broad blade
> cutting much better, but would it also resist high speed blunt force impact
> (e.g. musket ball)? What about small narrow thrusting areas (schlager and
> arrow tips)?
>
> It just seems curious to see the entire continent discontinue something
> that had been only recently implemented within a hundred years of each
> other.
>
> Haraldr
>
>
> On 2/16/11 7:56 AM, Dave W wrote:
>
>> The short answer is medium carbon steels.  The slightly longer answer is
>> that by 1400 some armors had the carbon content to be heat treated.
>> Originally this was through an interrupted, or slack quench, then later
>> with
>> a full hardening and tempering.  The most significant difference was the
>> lack of homogeneity in the steels.  The steels produced varied in carbon
>> content and slag content depending on the production method.  It was the
>> quality of the iron ore in Styria that allowed the German armorers to
>> produce more consistent armors.  The trend was for an increase in the
>> hardness of the steels through the end of the 15th century, peaking around
>> 1480 for the Italians, at which point their hardness fell off rapidly.
>>  For
>> Innsbruck and Augsburg, the primary German centers of production, the
>> armors
>> retained higher hardness values into the 1520's before falling more
>> gradually.  The English armors improved in quality with the establishment
>> of
>> the Royal Armoury at Greenwich in 1515.  That armory saw an increase in
>> the
>> hardness of its armors peaking around 1590 as they followed a similar
>> curve
>> to the other centers of armor production.
>>
>> For comparisons sake of the hardness of various materials, using the
>> Vickers
>> scale:
>> Wrought iron around 60 VPH
>> Mild steel around 140 VPH
>> Hardened steels from 200 to 550 VPH
>>
>> For a great introduction to the subject I recommend The Royal Armoury at
>> Greenwich 1515-1649, by Alan Williams and Anthony de Reuck, ISBN
>> 094809222X.
>> For an in depth look at the topic, there is no better source than Alan
>> Williams the Knight and the Blast Furnace, ISBN 9004124985.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> Alexis
>>
>>
>> BTW, anyone know what metal was being used in armor by the end of our
>> period? Obviously it was not tempered stainless. Is our mild steel a good
>> approximation of their state of the art? I know steel was in use for very
>> small applications but did they make it in quantities sufficient for
>> armor?
>>
>> Doré
>>
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