[Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it

Bree Flowers evethejust at gmail.com
Sat May 21 16:30:02 PDT 2011


Not all of us get to vote. Just saying because this is a personal nit
of mine (mostly with reference to "tea party" people who don't
understand AT ALL what taxation without representation REALLY means).
As a foreign national I get to pay taxes and I DON'T get a say in how
they are spent, not even one measly vote. So guess what, the loss of
liberty happens in the mundane world and in this country too. Life's
like that. I still choose to live here (and choose to pay my taxes)
rather than live somewhere else.

And getting back to options... you have the option to camp with
Ansteorra and not pay!!!! Where is your loss of liberty when you have
that choice?

~Eve

On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Ian Dun Gillan <ian1550 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Yes in the mundane world we pay taxes for service we do not necessarily use
> but we get a choice, we get a vote to choose express our opinion if we want
> those or not. In this instance it seems like there was no such option given
> and thus the loss of liberty.
>
> Ian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ansteorra-bounces+ian1550=sbcglobal.net at lists.ansteorra.org
> [mailto:ansteorra-bounces+ian1550=sbcglobal.net at lists.ansteorra.org] On
> Behalf Of Renee Pitcock
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 5:07 PM
> To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it
>
> Extending your metaphor into the mundane world, there are a number of people
> whose tax dollars go to services such as schools that they may not now and
> may never in the future employ.  People who have no children and who do not
> intend to have children still put tax dollars into public schools.  They do
> this for utilitarian purposes.  They are paying for a service that betters
> the community as a whole, even if there is no direct benefit to themselves.
> Educating children produces learned, competent functioning members of
> society in the future.  Educating children produces the future doctors,
> nurses, dentists and other health care professionals that you visit on a
> regular basis.  It produces the lawyers, politicians, lawmakers, and police
> whose jobs it is to make, enforce, and uphold the laws and government system
> of the nation.  Educating children also produces the plumbers, electricians,
> mechanics, and other everyday technicians who keep the
>  various accourtements of modern life running smoothly.  Even if a person
> has no children, he or she can benefit from paying for education through
> taxes.
>
> Various members of the list have already detailed some of the services
> provided through the payment of a camp fee.  These services seem largely to
> encompass both a cleanliness aspect and a hospitality aspect, both of which
> will provide benefits even to those who choose to remain self-sufficient.
> Keeping an entire camp clean, through the use of trash and water, benefits
> everyone in the camp, and a number of people around the camp's perimeter.
> Staving off the gross factor is generally a pretty damn good idea for all.
>
> Hospitality is another issue.  Contributing to the kingdom's hospitality
> budget can benefit everyone for a number of reasons.  First, it generally
> fosters a friendly, pleasant atmosphere in and around camp.  It also means
> that individuals from the camp are more likely to be looked on favorably by
> others.  Let's say, for instance, that the kingdom uses a portion of its
> alloted hospitality money or money contributed by camp members to throw a
> party or gathering of some sort and it goes well.  The next day, you
> encounter a person from another kingdom who was at said gathering, and you
> introduce yourself as Ansteorran.  If they had a good time, they may say
> something to the effect of, "Oh yeah, I was at your camp last night.  You
> guys sure know how to throw a great party," and the conversation continues
> on a pleasant note.  Alternatively, members of a kingdom who is seen as
> inhospitable or isolationist in some way will generally not be as well
>  received.  People may not know how to react around such people, and may be
> distant towards them.  The name of our kingdom is a form of reputation for
> all of us, and boosting that reputation can positvely affect us all.
>
> In addition to promoting goodwill and boosting our own reputation,
> hospitality can have a great effect on new people, people considering
> leaving the group, or people who have just returned after an absence.
> Openness, care and concern shown towards people in these groups can do
> wonders to make them want to stay and play with us.  If we do our own things
> and don't show that kind of hospitality towards others, these people may
> find it hard to integrate with us, or may question whether they can or
> should stay and play.  Being friendly, even if it costs a small fee to do
> it, is no bad thing.
>
> In light of these sorts of benefits, I have a hard time wondering why $7 is
> so much to ask to help the kingdom camp group run more smoothly and
> pleasantly, but that's just my two cents.
>
> ~Morina O'Donovan
>
> From: Ian Dun Gillan <ian1550 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it
>
> Greeting unto one and all,
>
> The point of the ongoing argument is not one of cost but a matter of
> liberties. The issue being that if you make absolutely anyone camping in
> Ansteorra's lands pay the fee whether they use the services offered or not
> then that is a loss of some of their liberties, something that we as
> American's take pretty seriously. If you do charge everyone camping that fee
> then you are taking away their right as a citizen of Ansteorra to camp in
> the lands assigned by the event to their kingdom thus removing part of their
> liberties. Those voicing against the camp charge are not actually against a
> few to be charged for amenities that they plan to partake in...so long as
> you partake of those services then if there is a fee you should pay it, the
> people protesting want to be able to make use of the land allotted to them
> as an Ansteorran but they do not want to make use of the services. The
> simple solution is to only require the fee of those campers who partake in
> the camp amenities. If you camp with Ansteorra and don't use their shower,
> don't use their water, and don't eat their orange slices then you should not
> have to pay.
>
> Perhaps this example can help put it into perspective...everyone who attends
> an event is suddenly required to pay a stabling fee for equine activities.
> Some of those attending the event do not even own a horse, nor do they
> attend or enjoy equine activities but because someone decided that a
> stabling fee was necessary and it must be paid by anyone who came on site.
> If you attend then you must pay so your options become go to the event or go
> somewhere else...If you attended such an event how would you feel about
> that?
>
> The solution is a simple one make the camp fee a cost for services just like
> a food plan, and not for the use of the camping area itself. This way those
> who provide such services for themselves within the confines of their
> allotted space will not have to pay the fee, and those who do wish to use
> the available services can do so by paying the fee.
>
> Perhaps with such a simple solution we can stop arguing about it and get on
> to some more enjoyable subjects.
>
> In Service,
> Ian
>
>
>
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