Thank you for your impute Michael Just because I believe there were some mistakes in forming the order doesn't mean I think it is wrong. I stated that I believe that this dream is good. I would like to mention something about the candidate process of the order. Technically it takes an unanimous vote to bring a member in. There was no arrangements made for people going inactive or dieing. There are no arrangements for modifying the Charter. In other kingdoms this has resulted in a "closed order" because the mechanics of the Order can not be gotten around. I tried to explain this to His Grace, but he didn't listen. I am not knocking the people who are in it. I respect them all. I am not knocking the idea. What I am knocking is the mechanics of the Order. I think they should have thought more on the idea. I am also complaining that if something uses the Ladies of the Rose as its beginning then the Ladies of the Rose entirely should have been asked. I don't mean they had to take our advice, but it would have been nice if they had asked. I am sure the people creating the order were so enthusiastic about it that they just didn't think. I know all the gentleman involved have the greatest respect for the Order of the Rose. To make myself clear I was pleased when my foster son Sir Thorkel became a member and I am happy for all the members. I do not want my husband to be one. He has been asked Twice and they made it OK for him to be a Master and one.Duke Patrick stated that the order would not be complete with Duke Jonathan and I believe that is right. He and I just believe in equally of the belted circle and the order does not fit with that concept. My husband has cleared one thing up. This order is for Heroes of Ansteorra-- Champion fighters. I really would feel good if it was offered to Duke Lloyd von Acre and Count Sir Simon and Duke Miguel. I feel that these men have been true heroes of Ansteorra and are true Champions and wonderful examples of peerage. Duke Lloyd might of given up his belt but I will always think of him as a true model of peerage. willow PS The order has been done. In Ansteorra we deal with what is there. I have worked very hard to silence the critics of the Order. Because it is low profile most people do not have an opinion. I will state that many of the populace believe that the upper nobility does not need any more awards and were not happy with it. I would ask the list do you think the peerage or nobility needs to create more awards for themselves?