[Ansteorra-archery] the future ??

David Ruff davidsbox01 at yahoo.com
Fri Jul 1 10:42:58 PDT 2005


WELL SAID!!!!!!!
 
 
Ulrich
 


jspinks at ix.netcom.com wrote:
The various threads on this question are rather interesting.  I must echo the point of view that this is simply a game and that if you do not like it then vote with your feet.  
 
I do, however, note some interesting points.  
1) The Carolingia event was donations requested and was solely for archery and thrown weapons with baronial court to follow.  This suggests a strong level of support and a strong showing of folks at the event that they can even hold it as a stand alone.    I have observed that the baron/baroness at some of our events do not even deign to visit the archery championships if there are other events going.
2)  With regard to the discussion about the archers duties to the barony/crown-  there is much about the duty of the champion to the eventholder---but what of the eventholder to the champion.  From what I have seen it often ends with the award of the regalia (if any), scroll (if any) and prize (if any).    Yet here in Ansteorra we sometimes expect the champion to pay his way in to the event after driving from who knows where, possibly organize and run the event, and finally stand in court during whatever time court is going on.   I know of only one case where the archery champion was made to feel a part of the local group by being comped to all their events as well as receiving complimentary subscriptions to their newsletter, etc.    Were it more common that an archery champion were treated as and made to feel a member of the eventholder group then I suspect that the dicussion might become moot.
3) as to the issue of stepping down for whatever reason- I have mixed feelings here.  On a point based shoot it is quite easy to ask that your score be stricken while still testing your mettle on the field.  On a elimination shoot- I stepped down 4 times from Royal Huntsman because I did not feel I could serve- yet in the process I knocked out how many archers that wanted to serve?   Not doing my best using the allowed equipment is not possible for myself but to compete while KNOWING that you will bow out also bothers me.  Yet as Lord Blackmoon points out- at many events there is only one archery event so if that is your main area of competition- what else is one to do EXCEPT bow out- or not compete?  And given what gas costs to travel to an event these days I am going to compete if I attend. 
 
As to myself- I did not compete in events while serving as Royal Huntsman except as a bye or where my score could be stricken.  I would have a problem serving as Baronial Champion for more than one barony, however and would be hesitant to do so.  The same would be true for smaller groups.  Perhaps Royal Huntsman should be selected only from those to already hold a championship?  Or perhaps there should be an annual honor shoot in which only the local champions compete for the honor of their group?  then it might have more meaning than just standing in court.  
 
Arcus Jaque the Spink

-----Original Message----- 
From: Blackmoon 
Sent: Jul 1, 2005 11:27 AM 
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] the future ?? 


GREETINGS 
 
>show them by voting with your feet and don't compete.
 
AS LONG AS THEY ANNOUNCE THOSE RESTRICTIONS IN ADVANCE , I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT .
IT'S WHEN THEY WAIT TILL YOU'VE ALREADY DRIVEN SEVERAL HOURS , AND PAID SITE AND FEAST FEE'S ,
BEFORE THEY ANNOUNCE THEIR " TERMS " 
 
BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
ARTHUR BLACKMOON 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Paul Thorne 
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra 
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] the future ??


    Well, without getting buried in all the various beliefs and feelings mentioned, here is what I see as the crux of the situation;
 
    Regardless of the verbiage, traditions, or anything else, if you are not able to uphold the position of Champion as dictated by the groups policy then do not compete.  It is the groups right to hold their Champion to certain restrictions, it is their Champion after all.  If you don't like their policy, show them by voting with your feet and don't compete.  By competing in their championship you are accepting their terms for their Champion.  If you falsely accept their terms and do not fulfill those obligations then your honor will bear the burden.  
 
Jean-Paul
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: David Ruff 
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra 
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] the future ??


I have to agree with arthur on this one. 
 
Being from Carolingia where i fought heavy list and being from the area shooting mundane semi pro archery in boston to points north to maine and east to new york - thier idea of competition (and with no disrespect to ANYONE) blows our ideas out of the water. Shoot against one of thier best archers - its very intimidating. 
 
The east coast by nature (carolingia or Boston Proper) is an area that takes tradition and ones word very seriously. When i said they think "odd" it wasn't an insult - they think odd as compared to a lot of people. Thier politics are fierce, they hold honor to a higher level and they are very competitive no matter what the arena. That is just my opinion of them and living it for the years i was there. Maybe someone else has a differnet view of the way they are - im always up for hearing other views. A lot of the british tradition that reined there hundreds of years ago still carries over to this day. 
 
They are very different.
 
 
As for the way they are doing the champions agreement - i personally feel that is bad.....
 
 
In a game where we can not evade other kingdoms and take land and take life LIKE OUR medieval history did. I personally believe taking titles and such away from other kingdoms and baronies - ESPECIALLY when friendly rivalry is involved is as period as its going to get - or atleast until we convert to real bodkins and real steel. 
 
I DO believe if you take a title or championship you better be willing to stand up and live up to whats expected. A lesson that i personally have lived - and failed at. But i also STRONGLY believe if your willing to step onto the field you had best shoot your best and shoot to win or YOUR HONOR means nothing. Why be untrue to someone shooting against you - testing thier skills against yours. It is  unhonorable to NOT give them your total best - you do yourself wrong and you do a fellow archer worse. 
 
Even in the case of opting out of a final round - i personally would rather take the person aside and ask them to give me thier best - should i win, i will bow to them to take the title - i am merely there to shoot and test my skill, honing any area that is lacking. 
 
My ideas of a champion and someone worthy of taking a title or championship maybe off, heck lords knows i have been wrong before, but are as follows. 
 
What it takes to win a championship is disipline, willingness to adapt, practice, willingness to push the envelope - finding new and better ways to meet the end goal and willingness to accept defeat and LEARN from it. A champion is supposed to be the best - hold the top scores and win what he or she shoots at. It takes thinking, planning and exicution, not honor when the trigger is pulled or string is loosed. 
 
In the final rounds when the adrenaline is flowing and the rubber mets the road - a steady hand is out the window and a keen eye doesn't have time to focus - it falls back onto knowledge, repetition, adaptation and disipline. <--- no disrespect ment, this is coming from being there, and being taught by some of the meanest and best shots in the world via military, years of teaching level 2 JOAD and competition on the east coast via semi pro bowhunter class compound release where money was won or lost in the blink of an eye. 
 
 
Bottom line - shoot to win or you do those you shoot against a great dishonor. Don't shoot for the loot or titles and be prepared to serve those you win the championship/title for. 
 
Do that and you are honorable, do it not and you are a prize shooter. 
 
 

 
SIDE NOTE - 
 
Honor has nothing to do with lining a shot up and loosing on it - NOTHING at all....... 
 
Quite honestly i hear about honor and archery and I am not following were honor has anything to do with shooting at a target - be it alive or paper. IN MEDIEVAL times the archer was deemed unhonorable - these words coming from knights that took lances and rode down unarmed or under armored people. It even got worst when the crossbows came around and obliterated the armed person and put holes in people from a hundred yards away. Archers were unhonorable and thought of that way.... 
 
It was honorable to meet your enemy with a sword or rapier and fight to first blood or to the death (insert rules here) and witnesses that were chosen by the two pairing off would watch the fight and determine if honor was achieved. 
 
Maybe someone can email me or explain honor and how it relates to SHOOTING and such to me? I know how to be honorable on the field and off, but not how honor plays into shooting against someone. Its competition right? you use what you can and what is availible to WIN! 
 
 
IN MY OPINION if people would take less time disagreeing and following as a whole, and more time creating and leading - what a fun community this would be. To those that create and expand this community - i salute you.... You have my respect and admiration..... 
 
Im happy personally creating and building things that are not seen on these fields.... that to me makes me a better person. I am the leader, or by god i will give it my best shot to know 1/2 of the things the leader forgot and expand on them. If i can reach that i am content. 
 
(no fingers pointed or insults ment if all this offends you - then i would take a look in the mirror and do some soul searching - we are all allowed our opinions right?)    :) 
 
 
 
 
 
Ulrich
 
 
 
 

Blackmoon <ld.blackmoon at cox.net> wrote:
GREETINGS 
 
AS I SAID TO YOUR ARC DeOR , THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WE WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ABOUT .
 
>bow out and know that you tested the other archers to your best ability and that championship was contended for and not just handed out.
BUT TO RESPOND TO YOUR STATEMENT .
AGAIN I SEE THIS FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE , (  ASSUMING FOR THIS DEBATE THAT I HAD WON )
I SEE THAT I WAS GIVEN A WIN ( AND IN THIS CASE A TITLE ), BECAUSE INSTEAD OF OUTSHOOTING ME , THEY STEPPED DOWN . SO INSTEAD OF BEING THE BEST ARCHER THERE ON THAT DAY , I'M NOW THE TITLED ARCHER OF 
( INSERT GROUP ) THE ALMOST GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN ARCHER .
( NOW ASSUMING I HAD STEPPED DOWN )  I SEE THAT I WILL FROM THAT DAY FORWARD , WONDER IF I COULD HAVE GOTTEN LUCKY ENOUGH, AND BEEN GOOD ENOUGH TO HAVE ACTUALLY WON THE TITLE OR TOURNEY , IF ONLY I HADN'T STEPPED DOWN.
 
SO IN BOTH CASES , I SEE ARCHERS LESS THAN HAPPY.
 
BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
ARTHUR BLACKMOON 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Paul Thorne 
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] the future ??


Greetings,
 
    I actually find this quite refreshing and I applaud the efforts of the Baron and Barony of Carolingia.  What better way to put it, if you want to be the Champion of this Baron, then you will hold yourself to the standards that he has put forth.  I believe that all Champions, whether they represent the Kingdom or the smallest Canton should hold themselves to this standard.  How can you fullfill the responsibilities of being a Champion if your loyalties are divided amongst two or more groups?
 
    If this is all about winning and taking home goodies then I think this is the wrong game to be playing.  Don't get me wrong, I love winning (fairly rare, but I love it none the less) but is not this game we play more than claiming titles, taking home spoils, racking up wins?  There is nothing wrong with going to events and shooting to win, but if there is a Championship on the line and you are currently a standing Champion elsewhere, bow out and know that you tested the other archers to your best ability and that championship was contended for and not just handed out.  I have not been to a Championship event yet that has not given the competitors a chance to bow out if they do not think they can fullfill the duties of Champion.
 
   I truly hope that this is the future of the SCA, where we play for Honor, Chivalry, and the better understanding of our Medieval counterparts.  I for one plan on using similar verbage in our upcoming Defender where we will be choosing our Champion.  
 
 
Lord Jean-Paul de Calmont
Arcarius to HL Eadric Anstapa 
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Blackmoon 
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 7:40 AM
Subject: [Ansteorra-archery] the future ??


GREETINGS
 
IS THIS THE FUTURE OF THINGS IN THE SCA ??
THE BELOW IS FOR A THROWN WEAPONS / ARCHERY EVENT AT THE BARONIAL LEVEL., IN THE EAST KINGDOM .
YOU CAN ONLY BE CHAMPION OF YOUR LOCAL GROUP .
OR IF YOUR NOT AN OFFICER ANYWHERE, YOU CAN ONLY BE ONE CHAMPION PER EVENT YEAR .
 
SINCE GETTING TO COMPETE IS HALF OF WHY I GO TO ANY EVENT ,I TEND TO SEE THIS AS BAD.
 UNFORTUNATELY , FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN , THIS POISON IS MOVING INTO ANSTEORRA FROM BOTH COASTS . 
WHAT I FIND INTERESTING , IS THAT IT SEEMS TO BE CROPPING UP IN ARCHERY / THROWN WEAPONS  COMPETITIONS A LOT MORE THAN IN HEAVY OR LIGHT COMPETITIONS .( CAN YOU SEE TELLING JOE KNIGHT & THE 3 FIGHTERS HE BROUGHT WITH HIM , WHO JUST DROVE 500 MILES , THAT THEY CAN'T WIN ?  )
 
ANYWAY , BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
ARTHUR BLACKMOON
CHAMPION'S AGREEMENT1. I consider myself to be a Carolingian, hold no office or position in any other barony or shire that divides my loyalties as a champion of Carolingia, and actively participate in Carolingian activities. 

2. It is understood that I may have personal fealty to individuals and to the crowns of the East in addition to my loyalties to Carolingia, and that I will resolve any potential conflicts of these fealties in a way consistent with my personal honor. 

3. During my term I have the duty to defend and serve the Baron and the Barony of Carolingia, which I will do to the best of my ability. 

4. I will make every effort to attend Carolingian court and to represent Carolingia on state occasions. I will try to participate in as many Carolingian Events as possible. 

5. I will fight for the glory and honor of Carolingia whenever possible and will serve Carolingia against her foes in times of war. 

6. I will strive to be ! an example of courtesy and chivalry, bringing honor to Carolingia through my actions on the field and my behavior towards others both on and off the field. 

7. It is my duty to organize the format of the competition for my replacement, and to ensure that it takes place about one year after my selection. 

8. I will bear the trust of Carolingia, and any champions regalia with pride, and will conclude my service well. 








---------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-archery mailing list
Ansteorra-archery at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-archery


---------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-archery mailing list
Ansteorra-archery at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-archery
_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-archery mailing list
Ansteorra-archery at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-archery


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

---------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-archery mailing list
Ansteorra-archery at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-archery


---------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-archery mailing list
Ansteorra-archery at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-archery
_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-archery mailing list
Ansteorra-archery at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-archery

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ansteorra-archery-ansteorra.org/attachments/20050701/80502e92/attachment-0002.htm>


More information about the Ansteorra-archery mailing list