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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Any of us arguing based on the chances of being sued is a
waste of time. Anyone can sue us any time. The Good Samaritan law pretty much
applies to first aid/cpr/and emergency treatment and this is none of those.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I would not expect any criminal actions to accrue. If you
counciled the boy and he got the idea you were encouraging him, then maybe a
criminal action might be lodged. But it would still be unlikely. If you put them
out for use and did not control who got what, then you probably have no criminal
or civil liability (but I am not a lawyer).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Handing anyone something they have specifically asked for
is not dispensing (as we have discussed ad nauseum in this and other forums). It
is definitely not prescribing. If they came to one of us and said, "I need
something to prevent me from getting an STD in the sexual activities I am about
to start." and we gave him some condoms, *then* we would be dispensing and
probably prescribing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>HIPPA does not apply to a situation where you are not in
any way asking for money. Basically, if you can get under the Good Samaritan
laws, then you are out of HIPPA control. The SCA, Inc lawyers used that to say
the Chirurgeonate is not under HIPPA. Having a state license or certification
does not put you under HIPPA. You still have ethical reasons to protect your
patient's privacy and your license/certificate can be removed for unethical
behavior, but HIPPA is not the issue here.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>After listening to all the different sides on this - and
they were all very well thought out and presented - I would (and do) make
condoms available to adults at events. Like with analgesics, they take their
pick from what I have and are cautioned to read any directions on the package as
I don't provide any directions. For a minor, in the absence of a legal
prohibition to sell condoms to them, I would be willing to provide condoms to
them for free under the same conditions as an adult. I would take the (I
believe) small chance of liability. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Looking at the onset of sexual activity at about 14, I put
a box of condoms out for my sons when the eldest was about 13. I refreshed it
from time to time and did not ask questions about the missing ones. We had
talked many times in the years prior to that and I believe they had a good ethic
about sex.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In service,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390034704-07102004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Caelin on Andrede</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rjt=acm.org@ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rjt=acm.org@ansteorra.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Thaine Briscoe<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:42
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Kingdom of Ansteorra Chirurgeon
discussions'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] And now the best
answer possible to abadquestion<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have rather enjoyed
this discussion. As a father of 4 (1 son and three daughters) I find myself
mixed. While I greatly appreciate the willingness of people to make sure my
children are “protected” from their actions (or potential actions). The idea
that my children can possible go to someone else and asked and obtain what they
need to justify their actions bothers me. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As a chirurgeon, I would not hand them
out to a minor no matter what the law states. Even though I might be “safe” from
criminal action, I will still be subject to civil action (remember OJ, acquitted
of criminal murder charges but found responsible civilly for wrongful death).
Also as a Medical professional, (I am a Texas EMT Intermediate) because of my
higher training, I am far more likely to be sued since someone could interpret
my actions as “prescribing” <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>which I
am not licensed to do and therefore practicing medicine without a license. My
certification will only protect me if I am operating in an official capacity of
my employment and do not exceed the direction provided by my Medical Director
(the doctor whose license I operate under). <SPAN class=GramE>Having said that,
I am not protected by my Texas EMT alone and could face criminal and certainly
civil charges.</SPAN> Besides, I am already paying too much in child support to
even consider paying for someone else’s because I choose to give a 15 year old a
condom to have sex at an event <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My understanding of
HIPPA laws are that I am not allowed to disclose any medical information to
anyone who does not have the need (someone directly involved in the patient’s
care). <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This does not apply to the
parent’s of minors as I am directly responsible for my children and therefore
have the legal right to access any and all things pertaining to their health
care. So by law I am required to disclose this information to the parents or
legal guardians if so asked, (unless the minor can produce the proper court
papers proving that the have been emancipated). Stepping on the parental rights
can be very tricky and even if you are safe from criminal prosecution will not
save you from civil prosecution.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Only my humble
opinion,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Rurik<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rurikthered=austin.rr.com@ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rurikthered=austin.rr.com@ansteorra.org]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>richard
hall<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October
06, 2004 7:45 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
ansteorra-chirurgeon@ansteorra.org; chirurgeonate-ansteorra@yahoogroups.com;
sca-chirurgeon@yahoogroups.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] And now the
best answer possible to a badquestion</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But this only true of the 2 states
mentioned as I do not know about any others except LA where I did live and work
as an EMT but do not admitt very often.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In TX & OK anybody 14 & over
can obtain any medical care or contraseptive from any medical professional or in
the case of condoms or spremacide even a guidence consular or buy it themselves
with the consent of parents, so u can give them the condom with fear of trouble
and u can not inform the parent due to the law and HIPAA if u have
a TX cert or lisencsure. Yea i know HIPAA does not apply but
the laws of TX and OK do. And also in TX 17 yo and up + 17 yo and up = legal and
14-16+ 14-16=legal 13 & under +anything is no way in hell. And the 17 only
counts for girls boys have to be 18 to consent to have sex with an adult 18 and
up hecnce a 17 yo guy can not have sex with an 18 yo girl but and 17 yo girl can
have sex with anybody 17yo & up.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But as shown by Brocc in the forwarded
digest it can open u up to very nasty leagal stuff and hence the SCA also. But
the SCA does have a ruling that protects the SCA. OTCs can be brought by
almost anybody a 14 yo can go in the store and by ASA or APAP but we cannot give
OTCs in SCA to a minor without the parent getting them. SO here is how I
would handle it and suggest maybe u do to if u choose to deal with it at all by
carring condoms. I plan to tell the 15 yo that as a SCA chirurgeon I can
not give them the condom as it is an OTC without their parent or loco
parentis/guardian coming to get it. But I tell the 15 yo to wait a minute
while I take off my baldric and than not an SCA chirurgeon but just a friend and
I then ask what they need it for & if sex, if they understand how to
use a condom and if they understand the risks of sex with or without a
condom. I then give them the condom after I here what would be for me acceptable
answer! s or I explain some stuff if I feel they need some explanation. If the
15yo is still plans to have sex I give them the condom for the main reason they
r going to have it anyway & I would rather see it safe than not as many have
already stated. But by taking off your baldric the SCA is no longer involed and
hence protected but if u are in TX or OK u r cover by TX & OK law. This does
not apply at GW which is covered by MS law & I have no idea about that
state. But maybe as GW War Chirurgeon I may just as the Autocrat who is a;so a
MS papamedic.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This is only how I would deal with this and
is only a suggestion as based on the laws in OK & TX. And if U do not want
to deal with this than either do carry condoms or do not let people know u carry
them and save them for use by friends & yourself. And yes u can
refuse by saying that u r out or do not carry
them.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> And as this ? has taken us out of the
SCA to be able to deal with it I will not sign as Herr Arkell MC KC
Ansteorra but as <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Arkell who happens
to be an SCA member & is Richard Hall LP,
RN<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">richard hall
<arkellvomcophus@yahoo.com></SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Enjoy this ? asked of me as todays
fun challange.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Arkell<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hope this is
o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing ...please do
so...
You have a young man ,age ,around 15 yrs.old ,and he ask you for a
comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you talk to him about "why"
he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this ? This is
after all a minor.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It's nice to be important..but....It's more
important to be
nice...</SPAN></FONT></I></EM><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A
href="http://vote.yahoo.com/">vote.yahoo.com</A> - Register online to vote
today!_______________________________________________<BR>Ansteorra-chirurgeon
mailing
list<BR>Ansteorra-chirurgeon@ansteorra.org<BR>http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-chirurgeon<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">_______________________________________________<BR>Ansteorra-chirurgeon
mailing
list<BR>Ansteorra-chirurgeon@ansteorra.org<BR>http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-chirurgeon<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A
href="http://vote.yahoo.com/">vote.yahoo.com</A> - Register online to vote
today!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/virus/*http:/promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html">Yahoo!
Mail</A> - Helps protect you from nasty
viruses.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>