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<DIV> Ok Let's all take a deep breath,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The opinion of the Chirurgeonate as a whole has not changed since its exsistance. There are pro- and Con - chirurgeon people at every level of Society including the BOD.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is a ammendment to the board and SCA by - laws. Now, let those who are at the kingdom or Society level chirurgeonate do their jobs and make their cases. It currently does not change who we are or what we do. Until they give us a new name or a new set of laws.... all is still the same in my book.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let our Chirurgeon General tell us what is our next course of action. So we get new names and red chirurgeons were once apprentices and silver chirurgeons were once journeyman and gold chirurgeons were once Masters and a platinum chirurgeon were once our chirurgeon general. Who knows what will come down the line next! Just roll with it and remember we do this for fun.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So were no longer carry OTC's in our bags! I can point to a basket just as easily.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So the chirurgeonate does not own an AED .... but Richard does. So the chirurgeonate does not own oxygen bottles ....... but Penny has a few back at camp she will use. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When people seperate the people from the chirurgeonate they serve ... there is no discussion. The modern people are certified .... the SCA persona is not. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>By the way, a non profit group that requests for First Aid training and CPR training individuals get people who can use oxygen administration and are AED trained by the RED CROSS, AHA or ASHI. This person needs to brush up on what is First aid and CPR trained and what does that detail. I will gladly send her the manuals.</DIV>
<DIV>By the Way .... the Good Samaritan does cover the AED if you have had an approved course such as ASHI CPR pro or AHA for the professional rescuer. <A href="http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/aed.htm">http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/aed.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you are a lay person not working in the medical field.....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<H4 class=MarginalNote><A name=section1></A>No liability for emergency aid unless gross negligence</H4>
<DIV class=IndentLevel1><B>1 </B>A person who renders emergency medical services or aid to an ill, injured or unconscious person, at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency that has caused the illness, injury or unconsciousness, is not liable for damages for injury to or death of that person caused by the person's act or omission in rendering the medical services or aid unless that person is grossly negligent.</DIV>
<H4 class=MarginalNote><A name=section2></A>Exceptions</H4>
<DIV class=IndentLevel1><B>2 </B>Section 1 does not apply if the person rendering the medical services or aid</DIV>
<DIV class=IndentLevel2>(a) is employed expressly for that purpose, or</DIV>
<DIV class=IndentLevel2>(b) does so with a view to gain.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In Service we remain,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lady Caley of Lancashire</DIV>
<DIV>Ansteorra Deputy Kingdom Chirurgeon - Training Division ( until they tell me who I am otherwise )</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>mundanely known as: ( here comes the list... LOL )</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Penny Kaye Engelking</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>10 year Licensed Paramedic in the State of Texas</DIV>
<DIV>under the Medical Direction of Dr. Julius Gray M.D. on a truck or off </DIV>
<DIV>City of Taft EMS</DIV>
<DIV>Driscoll Children's Hospital Flight Paramedic ( making International flights daily somedays even to California)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Advance Cardiac Life Support</DIV>
<DIV>Pediactric Advance Life Support</DIV>
<DIV>Neonatal Rescusitation Provider</DIV>
<DIV>Basic Trauma Life Support</DIV>
<DIV>Ameriacn Heart Assoc. Instructor</DIV>
<DIV>American Safety and Health Instructor</DIV>
<DIV>Emergency Vehicle Operation certified </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Go ahead tell me </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: richard hall <arkellvomcophus@yahoo.com><BR>To: chirurgeon@att.net <chirurgeon@att.net>; chirurgeon@sca.org <chirurgeon@sca.org>; kc@sca.org <kc@sca.org>; chirurgeonate-ansteorra@yahoogroups.com <chirurgeonate-ansteorra@yahoogroups.com>; ansteorra-chirurgeon@ansteorra.org <ansteorra-chirurgeon@ansteorra.org><BR>Sent: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:42:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>Subject: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list<BR><BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ok.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I can see where they are coming from, to an extent. The BOD is all about covering their ass. You and I both know that lawsuits have not happened at the rate that they COULD have happened. A lot of that is due to the waivers that are in place and due to the fact that the Chirurgeonate as a whole has been good at keeping "treatment" to a minimum and by providing good documentation. But, I think that they need to realize that people will sue for NOT giving treatment just as fast as for giving treatment. The AED issue is BS. If airports, malls, police cars, etc. have them for "John Doe" to use, why can't we? They are virtually idiot proof. Try to explain why one was NOT used when available to a grieving spouse who just lost their husband/wife to a massive MI that could have been treated with early defib. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I can also see the logic (though I don't agree with it) behind the name change. In a way it does <U>imply</U> more training than others, even if we know the difference. But rarely does anyone we treat at events even know who is apprentice/Journeyman/Master anyway!! They just see the red baldric and couldn't care the difference in the "racing stripes."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> And it's BULLSHIT about changing the CHIRURGEON GENERAL's name to something else. WHY? Did somebody get jealous because our name is different than everybody else's? Jeez Louise. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You're right. Maybe I don't want to be KC after all. And you can tell Eleanor I said that! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=arkellvomcophus@yahoo.com href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('arkellvomcophus@yahoo.com');">richard hall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=xaraxene@comcast.net href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('xaraxene@comcast.net');">xaraxene@comcast.net</A> ; <A title=medicfem@yahoo.com href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('medicfem@yahoo.com');">caley/penny E</A> ; <A title=ladydds@verizon.net href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('ladydds@verizon.net');">Sue Delk</A> ; <A title=chrisl@vvm.com href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('chrisl@vvm.com');">chrisl@vvm.com</A> ; <A title=hpockets@verizon.net href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('hpockets@verizon.net');">Carolle M. Cox</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Fwd: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>At this time this is FYI as the JKCs r refusing to put this out until we get some answers that we can give to all. so this goes nowhere Yet!!!!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Arkell<BR><BR><B><I>B Carlock <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net');">bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:31:01 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: B Carlock <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net');">bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net</A>><BR>To: <A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('kc@sca.org');">kc@sca.org</A>, "<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net');">bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net</A>" <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net');">bcarlock4@sbcglobal.net</A>>,<BR>Jim Carlock <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('j-carlock@att.net');">j-carlock@att.net</A>>, Galen Ockham <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('galen@chirurgeon.org');">galen@chirurgeon.org</A>>,<BR>Richard Threlkeld <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('rjt@softwareinnovation.com');">rjt@softwareinnovation.com</A>>,<BR>Therasia von Tux <<A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('no1home@onewest.net');">no1home@onewest.net</A>><BR>CC: <BR>Subject: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Hello to all KCs. Ms. Cady, our Board Ombudsman, has sent this to me, requesting it be sent out to all Chirurgeons. I am sending it to you verbatim, and please forward it to your kingdom lists in its entirety. If you have concerns, comments, questions, ideas, please contact me at <A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('chirurgeon@sca.org');">chirurgeon@sca.org</A> . Ms. Cady has also included her directors address. </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks, </DIV>
<DIV>Eleanor</DIV>
<DIV>SC</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Unto the Chirurgeons of the SCA, greetings.<BR><BR>The following will come to you from the Society Chirurgeon's office, but<BR>the Board wants to offer some explanation for the changes.<BR><BR>The structure of the Chirurgeon's office needs to be more in line with the<BR>other offices of the SCA. The titles presently used are somewhat confusing<BR>and inaccurate. For example, the term 'Chirurgeon General,' while clever,<BR>is inconsistent with other Society officers' titles (such as Society<BR>Marshal). It also implies authority over more than the basic first aid<BR>that the SCA provides. Additionally, the titles of Apprentice, Journeyman<BR>and Master have connotations of a level of skill that the Legal Committee<BR>is concerned pose significant legal risk to the SCA. It would not be<BR>unreasonable for people outside of the SCA to assume that a Master<BR>Chirurgeon has a higher level of medical training than a Journeyman or<BR>Apprentice, which is not necessarily the c! ! ase. Also, the term 'Master'<BR>within the SCA usually indicates possession of a peerage-- confusion that<BR>is not necessary. These are changes in name only. What the Society<BR>Chirurgeon's office shall use for a new ranking system is to be<BR>determined.<BR><BR>Remember that the SCA only provides first aid. Any advanced medical care<BR>is not in the purview of the SCA and will not be performed as an official<BR>function of any office of the SCA. Today, we live in a world with easy<BR>access to advanced emergency medical care that did not exist when the SCA<BR>started. The Chirurgeon's Handbook states the purpose of the Chirurgeons<BR>clearly. We need to be careful not to promote the perception that the SCA<BR>provides any care beyond what is required to earn a basic first aid<BR>certification. This policy shall be supported by not allowing the<BR>Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical equipment<BR>such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers, defibrillators, etc.<BR>The problem is not only in using these i
tem, but in storing, maintaining,<BR>cleaning and supplies for them. This is not allowed under the auspices of<BR>the SCA, covered by insurance, or Good Samaritan protection as individuals<BR>using them may not be trained or certified in their use. Having such items<BR>present in the Chirurgeon's area of operations significantly increases our<BR>legal risk and creates a perception that the SCA provides a higher level<BR>of medical care than we are willing or able to provide.<BR><BR>The Board of Directors recognizes and applauds the volunteers who work<BR>within the Chirurgeonate. You are skilled, well-meaning and dedicated<BR>people. Many of you have advanced training and certification. The Board<BR>appreciates that you donate your time and skills to make the SCA a safer<BR>place to play. None of what is precluded above applies to what an<BR>individual with advanced training may decide to do under his or her own<BR>license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority over<BR>personal supplies. However, we do have authority over the Chirurgeon's<BR>office, and within the purview of the Chirurgeonate, the SCA only provides<BR>basic first aid. If an injured participant requires more than basic first<BR>aid, they must be referred to a medical facility. Chirurgeons who do more<BR>than that do so at their own risk, and not as an officer of the SCA. All<BR>of our large events should have paramedics and transport present.<BR><BR>The Society Chirurgeon is currently working on these changes and will pass<BR>along further information. The Chirurgeon's Handbook will be revised to<BR>reflect this. Again, these changes are being implemented out of necessity<BR>to decrease risk to the SCA and its membership as a whole. This does not<BR>diminish the Chirurgeons in any way; you are very important in making the<BR>SCA events safer. This has been a long discussion with the Legal Committ! ee<BR>and is not a capricious change.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>Dena Cady - Director, SCA, Inc.<BR>Ombudsman to the Chirurgeon's offi
ce<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('DIRECTORS@SCA.ORG');">DIRECTORS@SCA.ORG</A><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>From: "drcady" <drcady@cox.net><BR>To: <chirurgeon@sca.org>, <Bethcarlock4@sbcglobal.net><BR>Subject: Please post to the chirurgeon's list<BR>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:06:32 -0700<BR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV>Unto the Chiriurgeons of the SCA, greetings.<BR><BR>The following will come to you from the Society Chirurgeon's office, but<BR>the Board wants to offer some explanation for the changes.<BR><BR>The structure of the Chirurgeon's office needs to be more in line with the<BR>other offices of the SCA. The titles presently used are somewhat confusing<BR>and inaccurate. For example, the term 'Chirurgeon General,' while clever,<BR>is inconsistent with other Society officers' titles (such as Society<BR>Marshal). It also implies authority over more than the basic first aid<BR>that the SCA provides. Additionally, the titles of Apprentice, Journeyman<BR>and Master have connotations of a level of skill that the Legal Committee<BR>is concerned pose significant legal risk to the SCA. It would not be<BR>unreasonable for people outside of the SCA to assume that a Master<BR>Chirurgeon has a higher level of medical training than a Journeyman or<BR>Apprentice, which is not necessarily the ! case. Also, the term 'Master'<BR>within the SCA usually indicates possession of a peerage-- confusion that<BR>is not necessary. These are changes in name only. What the Society<BR>Chirurgeon's office shall use for a new ranking system is to be<BR>determined.<BR><BR>Remember that the SCA only provides first aid. Any advanced medical care<BR>is not in the purview of the SCA and will not be performed as an official<BR>function of any office of the SCA. Today, we live in a world with easy<BR>access to advanced emergency medical care that did not exist when the SCA<BR>started. The Chirurgeon's Handbook states the purpose of the Chirurgeons<BR>clearly. We need to be careful not to promote the perception that the SCA<BR>provides any care beyond what is required to earn a basic first aid<BR>certification. This policy shall be supported by not allowing the<BR>Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical equipment<BR>such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers, defibrillators, etc.<BR>The problem is not only in using these it
em, but in storing, maintaining,<BR>cleaning and supplies for them. This is not allowed under the auspices of<BR>the SCA, covered by insurance, or Good Samaritan protection as individuals<BR>using them may not be trained or certified in their use. Having such items<BR>present in the Chirurgeon's area of operations significantly increases our<BR>legal risk and creates a perception that the SCA provides a higher level<BR>of medical care than we are willing or able to provide.<BR><BR>The Board of Directors recognizes and applauds the volunteers who work<BR>within the Chirurgeonate. You are skilled, well-meaning and dedicated<BR>people. Many of you have advanced training and certification. The Board<BR>appreciates that you donate your time and skills to make the SCA a safer<BR>place to play. None of what is precluded above applies to what an<BR>individual with advanced training may decide to do under his or her own<BR>license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority over<BR>personal supplies. However, we do have authority over the Chirurgeon's<BR>office, and within the purview of the Chirurgeonate, the SCA only provides<BR>basic first aid. If an injured participant requires more than basic first<BR>aid, they must be referred to a medical facility. Chirurgeons who do more<BR>than that do so at their own risk, and not as an officer of the SCA. All<BR>of our large events should have paramedics and transport present.<BR><BR>The Society Chirurgeon is currently working on these changes and will pass<BR>along further information. The Chirurgeon's Handbook will be revised to<BR>reflect this. Again, these changes are being implemented out of necessity<BR>to decrease risk to the SCA and its membership as a whole. This does not<BR>diminish the Chirurgeons in any way; you are very important in making the<BR>SCA events safer. This has been a long discussion with the Legal Committ! ee<BR>and is not a capricious change.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>Dena Cady - Director, SCA, Inc.<BR>Ombudsman to the Chirurgeon's offic
e<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('DIRECTORS@SCA.ORG');">DIRECTORS</A></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>KC mailing list<BR>KC@sca.org<BR>http://www.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/kc<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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