[Anst-dancers] Fall Arts Symposium - Dance Business

Pug Bainter pug at pug.net
Sat Nov 1 08:49:15 PST 2003

Russell Kinder (russmax at sbcglobal.net) said something that sounded like:
> I had no idea you hated me so much.

Excuse me? I must have missed that bit of information.

Just because I think that people have bad attributes, that does not mean
that I hate them. I know I have bad attributes, such as being brutally
honest at times.

> > Hell, I actually think that you suck as an instructor
> Um, this is never, ever an appropriate thing to say on a public list. 

I will fully admit that. I apologize for getting a running start in the
message. I was being reactionary to what appeared to be a very "holier
than thou attitude" that I was reading in your messages.

> Sure, I suck as an instructor. That must be why I have one of the 
> largest practices in Ansteorra, with 20+ dancers every Monday night. 
> That must be why my students thank me and praise me so much after every 
> practice.

I will admit that maybe you have improved since I last saw you teach.

On the other hand I have to say that I and many others thank all of the
SCA instructors, musicians, workers and active participants for things they
do no matter how poorly they do their job. This is a volunteer organization
and the thanks that we get from people is the largest reward that we get
in this game.

As a simple example, I was thanked for entering my first tournament
despite how poorly I did.

Just btw, why is this practice not on the regular Steppes schedule? Is it
made public to the local mailing list or is it a private practice?

> >> I've decided that we have 2 alternatives. The first is to resign
> >> Isabeau and myself as Dance Manual compilers and web scribes. The
> >> second is to go on as we have been doing, taking all your discussion
> >> under advisement.
> > "We're going to either take our
> > ball and go home or you're going do it our way"
> While it could be interpreted that way, that is not how the statement 
> was meant.

I must admit that it is definitely how the discussions were coming off.
You and Isabeau appeared to be *very* defensive of your baby that people
were trying to change/improve it or take it away from your control.

Btw, the society I come from taking something "under advisement" almost
always means that it will be promptly filed into the recycling bin as
being useless.

> We don't like being dictated to. Not all ideas are good ones. Design by 
> committee is never a good idea. Everyone probably has a different 
> vision of what the manual should be like. In the end, only one person 
> gets to have the final say. This is simply for quality control.

And as I see it, the Proctor is the one who gets the final say. It is
currently their Guild and it's an Ansteorran Manual. If it's not an
Ansteorran manual, then feel free to go off and do it your own way and
just call it your manual - just make sure you have permission from those
who contributed to date if it becomes something different.

> What I meant was that if we are not going to have enough control to 
> ensure the quality of the documents (web page & manual), then we cease 
> to want to be the ones whose names are given as the authors/editors.

The above is a much better way of saying it.

Although I must admit that some of the things that I saw mentioned did
ensure the quality of the manual that were rejected out right because
it was "too difficult", but they aren't. There are many automated ways
to program the organization, formatting and indexing/annotation of the
manual. This is an area that others in the community, such as Lowrie,
can help out with.

> We would still be more than happy to do lots of work for dance in the 
> kingdom.

I am glad to hear that!

> > Second, I am going to follow the desires of the Proctor with regards to
> > the website. IF you want to appeal this, please appeal it to the Kingdom
> > MoAS and if you still aren't satisfied the Crown.
> Which is exactly as you should do. My issues were completely not with 
> you. But if this resolves itself in a way that I can't accept, rather 
> than create a big stink and huge bad feelings all around, I'll simply 
> walk away, and let others do the work.

I have a small bit of a disagreement here. You already raised a big stink
in my opinion. You didn't walk away. You didn't talk to the Proctor
directly about it. You simply started complaining on the public list
about your baby being taken away from you. Now maybe you *did* do the
above items, but all we saw was the public complaints.

> I am sorry that Lowrie was run off. That was not intended. When we were 
> consulted about who we wanted to do the programming, some issues were 
> discussed in confidence. If those things got back to Lowrie, that was 
> not our doing, and it was, in fact a betrayal of our confidence. Now I 
> need to have a private discussion with Lowrie, before this gets blown 
> out of proportion any further.

*I* didn't know anything about any private discussions. All I knew was
what was on this list, which many in Lowrie's shoes wouldn't have wanted
to put up with and I *assumed* was what ran her off with. Now if you have
a guilty conscious about what you said in private discussions *about*
Lowrie, you really should discuss those items with her.

> If you want to attack me further, please do it privately.

I certainly hope that you don't see this message as an attack, because
it definitely isn't one. I did need to make sure that people understood
that I do not hate you though.


Phelim "Pug" Gervase   | "I want to be called. COTTONTIPS. There is something 
Bryn Gwlad - Ansteorra |  graceful about that lady. A young woman bursting with 
Dark Horde Moritu      |  vigor. She blinked at the sudden light. She writes
pug at pug.net            |  beautiful poems. When ever shall we meet again?"
  Note: The views do not reflect the SCA nor the Kingdom of Ansteorra.

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