[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 09:53:23 PST 2016

I spoke with Asoph when I first saw them to verify they were indeed legal. He informed me that rawhide and leather covered swords had been in use for at least 20 years and mentioned an tir as an example. Using drum hide rawhide or premium rawhide adds weight but it no way makes it harder than it was before the wooden stick was covered with leather / rawhide. It still brooms out and dies. I have probably fought with and against more of them than anyone in kingdom outside of Creppin. I use them every week I go to practice. This is the first time I have heard of anyone saying they might not be legal. No one has ever approached me about it. I think it's currently the best way to protect your rattan other than beating on a silofoex cover and way less time consuming.

Sven

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> These responses of 'it's always been okay' or 'they do it in ___ kingdom'
> isn't answering what is being asked.
> Just because something has been done w/o questioning doesn't mean that it
> is okay.
> 
> I could see many marshals not saying anything because they don't want to
> sound like an idiot (oh, I didn't know that was okay...) or they simply
> don't have an issue with its use.  And too many people don't even know what
> the difference is between society and kingdom standards.
> 
> And there hasn't been anything from JP (IMO) that says there is a concern
> of an 'advantage' to using these swords for the fighter...he is asking if
> they have been through the appropriate channels.
> 
> Kajira
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:10 AM Chuck Kaun <jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Potayto, potahto 🙂 at least someone is thinking about it now.  *raises
>> hand* Geologist, not engineer.   Find out what thickness works without
>> causing excessive loss of deflection, and write up the standard.  The
>> engineer can write up the experiment, and someone with time, money, energy
>> and willingness can do the tests and send off the results to the earl
>> marshal and person in charge of experimental weapons.  (Experiment....see
>> what I did there?)
>> 
>> Karl T
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 02:40, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>> rapiers.
>>> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>> order
>>> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>>> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree of
>>> shavedness to get several data points.
>>> So yeah. Science.
>>> 
>>> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has such
>>> things on his mind.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a piece
>> of
>>>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the center
>> and
>>>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove the
>>>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>> difference
>>>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>>>> 
>>>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any metal
>>>> can be used in any way.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and would
>>>> need to be approved separately.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be treated in
>>>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>>>> 
>>>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>> flexibility,
>>>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>>>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>>>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>>>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl Marshal
>>>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact him
>> for
>>>> more details."
>>>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>> approved
>>>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>>>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>> course,
>>>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>>>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>> bear
>>>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal or
>>>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be used
>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially
>>>> reduce
>>>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>>>> allowing it
>>>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>>>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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