[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 11:03:10 PST 2016

lol-that was subtle?  Would be afraid to see you blatant! :)

Sorry again...
Kaj

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 1:01 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com> wrote:

> On the contrary, I've always prided myself on my subtle dickery.
> Would it help if I'd titled it "A Modest Proposal"? :)
>
> -- Andreas, signing out
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > OMG people, quit being obvious dicks about this.
> >
> > The question presented was:
> > Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then allowing
> > it to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
> > or
> > Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
> >
> > Are both of these answers no? Then say so with your data to support the
> > opinion. (even just saying-seems sufficiently flexible and I haven't seen
> > the rawhide become rigid).
> > Is one of these answers yes (or no data to say otherwise)? Then that
> means
> > it's against rules and it needs to go through the experimental process
> > (like all the other things that have been passed for Kingdom)
> >
> > (unless I misinterpreted, in which I apologize)
> > Kajira
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So first you're going to need to determine a baseline: what is the
> > standard
> > > to which "passing" is measured. Then you determine your tolerances:
> > > presumably a minimum level of flex is important, but do you also want
> to
> > > set a maximum level of flex? I think it would be most fair to set
> > > flexibility as a function of blade length so as to not punish people
> who
> > > use super short sticks at the expense of those who use longer ones.
> > Then, I
> > > think you're going to need to set up a test booth at every event where
> > > people can get their sticks tested to see if they pass. To be fair, you
> > > should have everyone get their weapons tested, not just rawhide - fair
> is
> > > fair, and just 'cause tape has presumed to be sufficiently flexible
> > doesn't
> > > mean it always is. It shouldn't be hard to make a few sets of testing
> > > apparatus, but you're probably going to have to have people take off
> > their
> > > baskets before testing, so the sticks can be bolted down properly.
> > However,
> > > so everyone doesn't have to get their stuff tested every time, you can
> > get
> > > some sort of sticker to indicate that this weapon passed the test. I
> > > personally like scratch-and-sniff, but hello kitty ones are pretty
> > > ubiquitous too. The important thing should be that it doesn't blend
> into
> > > the weapon colors too easily - bright colors and cartoons are good for
> > > this.
> > >
> > > -- Andreas
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
> > > > flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok?
> and
> > > if
> > > > a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword
> at
> > > each
> > > > event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
> > > flexible
> > > > than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
> > > old?
> > > >
> > > > I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is
> actually
> > > > about the swords themselves
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
> > > > rapiers.
> > > > > Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a
> better
> > > > order
> > > > > would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
> > > > > You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and
> degree
> > > of
> > > > > shavedness to get several data points.
> > > > > So yeah. Science.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
> > such
> > > > > things on his mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
> > > jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
> > piece
> > > > of
> > > > >> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
> > center
> > > > and
> > > > >> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat,
> remove
> > > the
> > > > >> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
> > > > difference
> > > > >> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Karl Thorgeirsson
> > > > >> Sent from my iPad
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
> > > metal
> > > > >> can be used in any way.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
> > would
> > > > >> need to be approved separately.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
> > treated
> > > in
> > > > >> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
> > > > flexibility,
> > > > >> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal
> has
> > > > >> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
> > > > >>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
> > > > >>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all
> Ansteorran
> > > > >> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE
> I
> > > > >> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
> > > > >>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
> > > Marshal
> > > > >> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please
> contact
> > > him
> > > > for
> > > > >> more details."
> > > > >>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
> > > > approved
> > > > >> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done
> > it?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from
> similar
> > > > >> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore,
> of
> > > > course,
> > > > >> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
> > > > >>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
> > > > >>>>> or
> > > > >>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
> > > > >>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
> > > > >>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
> > > > >> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
> > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I
> think
> > > > bear
> > > > >>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no
> metal
> > > or
> > > > >>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may
> be
> > > used
> > > > >> in the
> > > > >>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
> > > > >>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
> > substantially
> > > > >> reduce
> > > > >>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
> > etc.).
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and
> then
> > > > >> allowing it
> > > > >>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> or
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Thoughts,
> > > > >>>>>> Jean Paul
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
> > > > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
> > > > >>>
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> > > > >>>
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> > > > > Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> > > > > « Qui quærit, invenit »
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> > > Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> > > « Qui quærit, invenit »
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
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>
>
> --
> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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