[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 12:07:03 PST 2016

Leather yes but not hardened leather. If I built a hammer with Rawhide as the hitting surface versus Saddle leather or suede trust me there is a sizable difference. 

    On Thursday, February 25, 2016 2:00 PM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:

 Because it is already in our standards

Rawhide is LEATHER

LEATHER IS ALREADY AN APPROVED MATERIAL FOR WEAPON CONSTRUCTION

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Elfsea Marshal <marshal at elfsea.ansteorra.org> wrote:
> 
> An Tir does not have rawhide listed in their weapons standards unfortunately. 
> 
> Absolon
> 
>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 05:57, Liam Gordon <cenliamgordon2005 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Something else that we can do is reach out to other kingdoms where we know
>> people are using rawhide wrapped swords and see what their kingdom rules
>> are, and if those people using the swords have had any issues with them.
>>> On Feb 25, 2016 4:55 AM, "Gene Hosey" <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
>>> flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok? and if
>>> a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at each
>>> event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less flexible
>>> than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when old?
>>> 
>>> I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
>>> about the swords themselves
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>>> rapiers.
>>>> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>>> order
>>>> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>>>> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree of
>>>> shavedness to get several data points.
>>>> So yeah. Science.
>>>> 
>>>> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has such
>>>> things on his mind.
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a piece
>>> of
>>>>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the center
>>> and
>>>>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove the
>>>>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>>> difference
>>>>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any metal
>>>>> can be used in any way.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and would
>>>>> need to be approved separately.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be treated in
>>>>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>>> flexibility,
>>>>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>>>>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>>>>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>>>>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl Marshal
>>>>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact him
>>> for
>>>>> more details."
>>>>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>>> approved
>>>>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>>>>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>>> course,
>>>>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>>>>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>>> bear
>>>>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal or
>>>>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be used
>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially
>>>>> reduce
>>>>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>>>>> allowing it
>>>>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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