[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Gene Hosey genehosey at icloud.com
Thu Feb 25 15:17:09 PST 2016 

to this point please tell me how leather rawhide is more rigid than the plastic pipe that is already in use

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 3:22 PM, LF Flare <minstrilgirl1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Per the society handbook:
> A. General 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards andpommels, no metal or non-approved rigid, granular, or liquid material may beused in the construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
> 
> 
> Rigid material is DEFINED as such in the handbook:
> Rigid material: a. Steel of no less than 18 gauge, oraluminum of no less than 0.075 inch (1.9mm) b. Other metals of sufficientthickness to give similar rigidity to those listed above to include treatedsteel or aluminum c. High-impact-resistant plastics such as ABS or polyethyleneof sufficient thickness to give similar rigidity to those listed above d. Heavyleather (as defined above) that has been hardened in hot wax, soaked inpolyester resin (properly catalyzed), or treated in such a manner as toMARSHAL’S HANDBOOK permanently harden the leather e. Two layers of untreatedheavy leather (as defined above) f. Other materials equivalent to those itemslisted above (Any armor of unusual construction or materials must meet theapproval of the kingdom or Principality Earl Marshal or their designateddeputy.)
> 
> 
> HEAVY leather which is a rigid material defined by the handbook is further defined as this:
> Heavy leather: stiff, oak-tanned leather nominally 11/64inch (.171875 inch or 4.4 mm) thick. This is referred to as 11 ounce leather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem here is that you are all looking for where it specifically states RAWHIDE is allowed which it does not do.  It cannot cover every single material you may come up with on a specific list.  That would be impossible (see Andreas' snarky yet to the point post on this).  What it DOES say is outline what is a rigid material and defines what kind of leather is a rigid material.  Rawhide is not a rigid material.  Therefor, it's legal.
> I will take my popcorn and movie candy now while you type furiously in capital letters at each other.
> Antigone 
> 
>    On Thursday, February 25, 2016 2:14 PM, Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hosey, where is it specifically found?
> When I look in society, can only find leather pertaining to armor.
> When I look in society addendum, can only find related to siege weapons
> Don't see in weapon construction in Kingdom, but it says to look in society
> except for the couple of Kingdom additions
> 
> 
> .
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Because it is already in our standards
>> 
>> Rawhide is LEATHER
>> 
>> LEATHER IS ALREADY AN APPROVED MATERIAL FOR WEAPON CONSTRUCTION
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Elfsea Marshal <
>>> marshal at elfsea.ansteorra.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> An Tir does not have rawhide listed in their weapons standards
>> unfortunately.
>>> 
>>> Absolon
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 05:57, Liam Gordon <cenliamgordon2005 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Something else that we can do is reach out to other kingdoms where we
>> know
>>>> people are using rawhide wrapped swords and see what their kingdom rules
>>>> are, and if those people using the swords have had any issues with them.
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016 4:55 AM, "Gene Hosey" <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
>>>>> flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok?
>> and if
>>>>> a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
>> each
>>>>> event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
>> flexible
>>>>> than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
>> old?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
>>>>> about the swords themselves
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>>>>> rapiers.
>>>>>> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>>>>> order
>>>>>> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>>>>>> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree
>> of
>>>>>> shavedness to get several data points.
>>>>>> So yeah. Science.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
>> such
>>>>>> things on his mind.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
>> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
>> piece
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
>> center
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
>> the
>>>>>>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>>>>> difference
>>>>>>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
>> metal
>>>>>>> can be used in any way.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
>> would
>>>>>>> need to be approved separately.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
>> treated in
>>>>>>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>>>>> flexibility,
>>>>>>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>>>>>>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>>>>>>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>>>>>>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>>>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
>> Marshal
>>>>>>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
>> him
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> more details."
>>>>>>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>>>>> approved
>>>>>>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>>>>>>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>>>>> course,
>>>>>>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>>>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>>>>>>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>>>>> bear
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal
>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
>> used
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
>> substantially
>>>>>>> reduce
>>>>>>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
>> etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>>>>>>> allowing it
>>>>>>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>>>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>>>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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