[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Steve stevedschubert at gmail.com
Fri Feb 26 10:06:11 PST 2016 

I am looking into some standards for the proposed thickness of the wrapping material as well as input from marshals in An Tir that have been using/approving the use. It is not on their website as an approved material, but hopefully we can obtain some statistical data from multiple sources. 
 We do not have a base-line for the force flex of rattan. Different thicknesses and densities will provide different quotients. We have people in the SCA that take up to 3" rattan and cut it into a "chopper." There is 0 flex on that weapon, yet still meets the majority of kingdoms' laws. 
 I will spend the next few days trying to get some actual information and provide it to the collective. 
 Hopefully, we can come to an informed conclusion soon. 

Absolon of Hereford

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 14:11, Jean Paul de Sens <jeanpauldesens at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You are not correct.  Leather is not an explicitly approved material.  The
> only ruleson single-handed weapons that address the issue are :
> 
> "If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid
> materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The
> head shall allow at least .5 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the
> striking surface and the weapon haft."
> 
> and
> 
> "With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal or
> non-approved rigid, granular, or liquid material may be used in the
> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears."
> 
> and please quit shouting.
> 
> JP
> 
> 
> Qui mieux fait, mieux vault.
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Because it is already in our standards
>> 
>> Rawhide is LEATHER
>> 
>> LEATHER IS ALREADY AN APPROVED MATERIAL FOR WEAPON CONSTRUCTION
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Elfsea Marshal <
>>> marshal at elfsea.ansteorra.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> An Tir does not have rawhide listed in their weapons standards
>> unfortunately.
>>> 
>>> Absolon
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 05:57, Liam Gordon <cenliamgordon2005 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Something else that we can do is reach out to other kingdoms where we
>> know
>>>> people are using rawhide wrapped swords and see what their kingdom rules
>>>> are, and if those people using the swords have had any issues with them.
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016 4:55 AM, "Gene Hosey" <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
>>>>> flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok?
>> and if
>>>>> a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
>> each
>>>>> event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
>> flexible
>>>>> than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
>> old?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
>>>>> about the swords themselves
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>>>>> rapiers.
>>>>>> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>>>>> order
>>>>>> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>>>>>> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree
>> of
>>>>>> shavedness to get several data points.
>>>>>> So yeah. Science.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
>> such
>>>>>> things on his mind.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
>> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
>> piece
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
>> center
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
>> the
>>>>>>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>>>>> difference
>>>>>>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
>> metal
>>>>>>> can be used in any way.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
>> would
>>>>>>> need to be approved separately.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
>> treated in
>>>>>>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>>>>> flexibility,
>>>>>>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>>>>>>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>>>>>>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>>>>>>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>>>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
>> Marshal
>>>>>>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
>> him
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> more details."
>>>>>>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>>>>> approved
>>>>>>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>>>>>>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>>>>> course,
>>>>>>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>>>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>>>>>>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>>>>> bear
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal
>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
>> used
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
>> substantially
>>>>>>> reduce
>>>>>>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
>> etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>>>>>>> allowing it
>>>>>>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>>>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>>>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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