[Fwd: [Ansteorra-rapier] Rapier Melee practice]

Charlie Ribron II landf at airmail.net
Fri Sep 7 09:41:44 PDT 2001

I'm going to start off by saying I can spell the names of the castles I saw
the paintings in, but there on the spain and port. border.
  There are two paintings that stick out more then the othere 3 or 4.  One
depicts them fighting with swords ready to clash with cloaks and bucklers
and there is some thing like 12 to 15 a side and in the center of the
painting there is 2 fighter on one side shoulder to shoulder one is with
cloak and the other a buckler, the other side has 3 2 with bucklers and the
other with just his rapier. The second is of two sides facing each other
with just rapiers and it looks to me that there ready to charge into each
other. these two paintings were in the same castle and the one comes before
the other or by be not. But the paintings where nice to look at. When I was
there that's were I first met Sir Recardo (spelling?) if anyone remembers
And at the end here, I'm not tring to get anyone mad or jump on someone. I
was asking a question so has to teach and learn at the same time. Because it
helps us all to share the things we see and hear. I have fun doing both
styles in rapier and hvy. So if you have fun doing what you like you can
learn more.
Ld Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: gtaylor <gtaylor at lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
To: ansteorra-rapier at ansteorra.org <ansteorra-rapier at ansteorra.org>
Date: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:46 AM
Subject: [Fwd: [Ansteorra-rapier] Rapier Melee practice]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:29:38 -0500
From: "Mr Leonard Zimmermann" <zimmerml at cnrf.nola.navy.mil>
To: <ansteorra-rapier-admin at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] Rapier Melee practice
Sender: ansteorra-rapier-owner at ansteorra.org
Precedence: bulk

To all those who have decided to take this topic from the silly to a more
serious discussion let me throw in what little my two cents might be worth.

Rapier in melee is, I agree, a bit ambiguous. I have found little to
directly support the use of that particular weapon as a weapon of war
(although it could be greatly argued exactly what a Rapier is, mind you).
Although, Ld. Carlos, you did mention some paintings in Spain? Any chance
you could find out which paintings those were? There's just not enough
Renaissance artwork in US for folks to really make comparisons on, unless
it's in a book and often those reproductions are difficult to examine
closely. So, as always, share the wealth!

It could be noted that melees are well documented in the context of the
duel, however. Usually with a relatively small force on either side (I don't
remember seeing anything more then about 6 to a side, but my memory could
easily be failing me) and there is some evidence to suggest that they may
have been fought more as individual duels all on the same field where it
might have been very bad form to "gang up" on any other individual. Which
throws most SCA melee tactics out the window. It also suggests that having
two standards of acceptable conduct for "honor" on the field is somehow
different between tourney and melee. (And no, I won't go into the definition
of honor since that would take a treatise far longer than this has already
gotten and I still wouldn't acceptably define it. They couldn't do it in
period, I seriously doubt I could do better.)

So Rapier and War doesn't seem to go together in period, unless we find
compulsive documentation to the contrary. But I have one more question. Who
says that sword in your hand is a Rapier? Why not a side sword or any other
number of weapons which would have been used in war? After all the only REAL
difference between armored and unarmored combat is simply a safety
convention... no "hacking, well that and, of course, no hard armor that is
presumed to be worn. So by that view it could be possible that "rapier"
melees are not really so silly after all. (Except that everyone says they
are all fighting with a rapier, which could bring it back to being silly
again. ;))

Finally, though, since when has periodicity ever really entered into the
argument where the SCA is involved? What is or isn't important to one
person's recreation is, more often then not, completely different from the
person next to them. So you're stuck dealing with what you think is
important to be "period" is not what everyone else thinks is important, and
vice-versa. It's one bing compromise, and not always for the better, in my
opinion. Then again, in my opinion there should only be one all-encompassing
peerage order for all activities in the SCA, the Knighthood, so you can see
how whacked and radical my two cents are. I'd be SHOT in a Knight circle
just for mentioning that (probably with a 9mm non-period pistol, of course)!

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Axemoor, Meridies (ex-Bjornsborg)
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, New Orleans, LA)


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