[Ansteorra-rapier] Why I don't want to ban things I don't particularly want to use

Send mail to james-at-crouchet.com crouchet at gmail.com
Thu Oct 11 23:25:39 PDT 2012

And Doré, at least for practices.  The fact that I got tired of arguing
with people who's minds I  know I can't change, does not mean I have
accepted this.

Christian Doré
 On Oct 11, 2012 2:28 PM, "Puck Curtis" <puck.curtis at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't see Tivar or Robin ever being persuaded to change their positions
> on this issue.
> That brings us to the the brass tax.
> Is the political expense of getting rid of these vestigial weapon forms
> worth it today?
> In other words, is it worth doing over the objections of Tivar and Robin?
> Is there any other question really?
> ~P.
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Andrew Heinrich <
> andrew.heinrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> The problem with this argument is that there's no major drive to bring
>> Epee back into the main arena of SCA fencing. You mentioned the same gender
>> consort comparison, but that's really not applicable here. In that case,
>> you have people who see a very clear discriminatory bar to their achieving
>> their dreams in the SCA. It's not like they can just choose someone else
>> who inspires them the way their actual consort does. They can't learn to be
>> straight. You *can* learn to use a heavy rapier.
>> The difference between this situation and the comparison to rapier combat
>> in general is that there is no groundswell of desire to play with epees and
>> foils. Those weapons have died in the SCA. That's ok. If, for some reason,
>> everyone stopped fighting rapier over the course of 15 years, there would
>> be perfectly good reason to simply get rid of it as an activity.
>> With precious few folks wanting to fence with epee and foil, it becomes
>> unnecessary to maintain the infrastructure (rules, the marshallate's
>> knowledge, etc) to support the use of those weapons. We can cut down on the
>> number of authorizations we track, the categories we authorize in, the
>> training our marshals need - this is a good thing.
>> - Mateo
>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>> Some people are trying to change my mind by explaining why they have
>>> concluded that epees and foils are inferior. This can't work, because my
>>> argument is not based on the notion that they are as good as heavy rapiers.
>>> For my purposes, they aren't
>>> What a lot of people haven't noticed is that I am not disagreeing with
>>> your assessment of epees and foils - just with the idea that this provides
>>> any reason to ban a safe weapon that a few people like to use.
>>> I've heard all of these arguments before:
>>> They are poor simulators.
>>> We have a better tool for combat.
>>> Most places don't have competent marshals.
>>> They don't fit your goals for the SCA.
>>> They don't "look right".
>>> Very few people want to use them.
>>> Agreed.
>>> If I agreed that there is a single goal for the SCA,
>>> if I agreed that everybody had to share that exact goal at that exact
>>> intensity,
>>> If I agreed in banning what some people use for their goals,
>>> If I agreed that we should only use one simulator for combat,
>>> If I agreed that the SCA throws out everything that doesn't "look right",
>>> If I agreed that the marshallate should be the authenticity police
>>> instead of the safety patrol,
>>> Then, and only then, could I agree with the idea of banning them.
>>> Of course, if I, and others, agreed with all of that, then I, and
>>> others, wouldn't have fought these arguments when they first came up, in
>>> the 1970s, and fencing would have been banned from the SCA back then.
>>> We have fencing in the SCA, with heavy rapiers and C&T and all the other
>>> innovations, in large part because I, and others, fought the idea of
>>> banning something most people in the SCA didn't like.
>>> One of the arguments in favor of same-sex consorts is that just because
>>> you don't want one is no reason for nobody else to be allowed one.
>>> If you don't like epees and foils, don't use them.
>>> If you don't want to marshal it, don't marshal it.
>>> If there is no epee marshal on site, people cannot fight with epees, and
>>> *only people who want to use epees have any responsibility to provide
>>> an epee marshal*, just as if there is no C&T marshal on site, there can
>>> be no C&T.
>>> If you want to be free from epees and foils, then Congratulations! I
>>> pronounce you free of them. You never have to face them; you never have to
>>> marshal them. It is extremely rare that you even have to look at them. (I
>>> wish tennis shoes, baseball fields, and telephone poles were as rare at our
>>> events as epees and foils are.)
>>> But the goal isn't to be free from ever having to use them - that goal
>>> has been accomplished. For some reason, the idea that anybody *else *can
>>> choose to use them bothers some people. It feels like the real issue is
>>> that some people are allowed to have different goals or different
>>> intensities for their goals in the SCA, and that bothers people who want
>>> everyone to share their own goals and intensities.
>>> Let's assume that you are right, and that epees and foils are in all
>>> ways inferior. Let's assume that you are right, and everybody who uses them
>>> has missed at least one of the points of SCA combat. But if they fight for
>>> the Queen, carrying somebody's favor, then they haven't missed all of it.
>>> Why stop them from pursuing the goals of the SCA that they care about, just
>>> because they don't want to do one of the goals of the SCA that you care
>>> about?
>>> It's safe, a few people like it, it serves some SCA purposes, and if we
>>> are all allowed in the SCA, instead of just the people who agree with you,
>>> there is no valid reason for banning them.
>>> But I have no problem with trying to talk folks out of using them.
>>> That's attempting to get people to agree with you, and then to do what you
>>> want because they want it too. And if someday nobody uses them, then taking
>>> them out of the law wouldn't be banning them, but acknowledging that
>>> everyone has dropped them, just like Ansteorra did with fiberglass. But as
>>> long as *any* Ansteorrans want to use them, taking them out of the
>>> rules is an attack on those people.
>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Ansteorra-rapier at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org
>> --
>> it is good to know, it is better to do, it is best to be.
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> --
> “Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”
> Galileo Galilei
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