[Ansteorra-rapier] Proposed revision to rapier rules

Howard Rachel kazimir.petrovich at gmail.com
Fri Oct 12 10:40:54 PDT 2012


This statement is not accurate:
 "Rattan is *not* used to simulate a sword, it is used to simulate a
training weapon such as a waster."
All SCA combat, armored and rapier, is predicated on the effects of a REAL
weapon delivering potentially debilitating or fatal blows to a prescribed
minimum level of armor that every combatant is assumed to be wearing
(regardless of what they are actually wearing). In armored combat, those
real weapons are made of rattan. This is pretty clear in the SCA Marshal's
Handbook.
C. An effective blow will be defined as a blow which was delivered with
effective technique for the particular type of weapon used, properly
oriented, and struck with sufficient force.
If the type of weapon being replicated ("...the type of weapon being
used...") is a waster, then you wouldn't react as if cut, or as if your
torso had been caved in, etc.
Fighting a plaisance is an option, but it is not the standard.., unless an
awful lot changed during the 10 years I was away.
Kazimir


On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net> wrote:

> Good Morning,
>
>   I must apologize for stepping away from the discussion for too long. I
> thought I was at a lull in work before starting this and then was
> blindsided
> with a new analysis. I'm catching up on a number of topics all at once.
>
>   First for some frivolity. Just because some people are pack rats and keep
> items in their bags that aren't generally used or in some cases possibly
> illegal, it doesn't mean we need support their addiction. We are forming an
> intervention!
>
>   Second, the problem trying to be solved is the potential of safety or
> rules violations raised from weapons that are used less than 10 times a
> year
> (SWAG based on the bouts people have talked about). Even if it's 10X that
> number, it is still less than 1%. Of the thousands and thousands of bouts a
> year in this kingdom, the foil and epee are statistically not used in our
> Kingdom. Unfortunately should there be an incident the SCA/Kingdom, marshal
> and fighter could be held responsible because they are allowed by our rules
> but probably not given the same scrutiny as the heavy rapier blades. To
> correlate this, the recent lawsuit was not about if something was allowed
> or
> that the SCA didn't have rules, but that the rules we have were not
> enforced
> because of the limited use of the program or concern for the need to abide
> by the rules.
>
>   Based on some people's feedback, I should probably retire as a Rapier
> Marshal (but not C&T) as I don't know how to inspect these weapons, but
> also
> have not had a need to since I was authorized. While I am familiar with the
> weapons, I am not familiar with the methods in which they become unsafe. I
> am not an authorized combatant for them, so I will not inspect or learn to
> inspect them, nor will I marshaling bouts because I don't know when
> something wonky happened on the field that would generate an unsafe
> circumstance.
>
>   I think that the argument that I don't have to face a weapon can be a bit
> misleading. While it is true on the surface, it means I must concede the
> bout to my opponent since I will not or cannot face them with a weapon that
> I am not authorized for. We do not have separate light and heave blade
> tournaments anymore. In some smaller tournaments this could be used as a
> method for winning in a very cheesy, but legitimate, way assuming there is
> a
> marshal present who can inspect the weapon. Hopefully it couldn't come to
> pass, but it is as legitimate of a concern as many of the arguments for
> keeping them.
>
>   Like some others, my norm is to give the right of weapons choice to my
> opponent given my station in the SCA, defaulting to single blade if they
> don't make a choice. I even succeeding in getting Don Robin to choose at
> Queen's because of being a Landed Noble. In my fencing career, no one has
> ever choose a foil or epee, so I am not seeing the same experience others
> are saying they are seeing. It seems that some of us are moving in
> different
> circles.
>
>   For the youth program, there does not appear to be a requirement that an
> adult working with them is actually authorized for the *youth* style. It
> may
> be heresy, but this change doesn't prevent those that are comfortable and
> safe per the marshal to train youth with these blades. Our youth program
> (chivalric and rapier) extends beyond the Society rules as the ages are
> outside of the Society rules and it is a separate authorization specific to
> Ansteorra and not SCA-wide.
>
>   In regards to medical conditions creating problems using heavier blades,
> there is a solution that all of us should be doing that solves this.
> Training and conditioning. Some people need to work on foot work more,
> others need to work on stamina, and some need to work on wrist/arm
> strength.
> This need is across any and all sports activity. One can train and be
> taught
> with a wide variety of items from broomsticks to weight bars, it is not
> until combat occurs that the restrictions for weapons kick in.
>
>   Ansteorra not banning other Society approved weapons is a fallacy. We
> have
> at least in the combat archery arena. We have set a maximum poundage (not
> just inch poundage) on shafted crossbows and reduced the tube crossbow
> maximums for both poundage and inch poundage. This means people with
> legitimate weapons in other kingdoms can't use them here. Why did we do
> this? In part due people voicing safety concerns, and in part to align with
> Gulf Wars which is what our army trains for all year.
>
>   Unless my reading of their rules is wrong, Ansteorra is the only Gulf War
> kingdom still allowing foils and epees. I know we've fought to allow them
> in
> tournaments at Gulf Wars in the past when we were told they wouldn't be
> allowed by the hosting kingdom, but it is to the point now that we are
> being
> unfair to our combatants by allowing them to be authorized for a weapons
> style that they won't be able to find someone to fight nor use in honor of
> our Crown and Kingdom.
>
>   Regarding aesthetics, there are Kingdoms that do require plastic armor to
> be covered and a policy came down within the last year (or so) that
> required
> all modern logos to be covered Society-wide on the armored combat field. We
> are evolving as an organization and it is good and right to do so. We do
> need to remember the "good old days", but we don't need to keep them with a
> stranglehold. Looking forward, there will be a day when modern fencing
> masks
> die out as more fighters get helms, but that day is not here. The day for
> foils and epees to die out has come, and in my opinion past.
>
>   Rattan is *not* used to simulate a sword, it is used to simulate a
> training weapon such as a waster. Unfortunately because of the litigious
> society we live in, we have to choose safety during a failure versus the
> look and feel of a wood waster. On the other hand, a foil and epee are used
> to simulate weapons that did exist, do exist, and we have safety measures
> that permit the legitimate use of the "real McCoy".
>
>   Personally, I think the Rapier community has a higher standard, at least
> since I've paid attention, to not only dress better, but to look more
> historically accurate than the Armored community. While we have our bad
> apples, they have their good apples as well. Let's not use the argument
> that
> because an inferior example exists as a justification that we should lower
> our standards as well.
>
>   The proposed rules have not been published as they are not law yet. As
> part of my role as marshal Webminister I definitely plan on getting a new
> version of our handbook updated on-line, but will be publishing approved
> changes as addendums until all of it is hashed out. The new rules will also
> be small enough to publish on a single page in the Blackstar.
>
> Ciao,
> Pug
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra-rapier mailing list
> Ansteorra-rapier at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org
>



Baron Kazimir Petrovich Pomeshanov
Baron of the Court of the East
Companion of the Ancient Order of the White Scarf of Ansteorra
Princess' Order of Courtesy (Drachenwald)
Etc...

*Aut Aude, Aut Tace!         Be bold or be silent!*

www.kazimir-petrovich.blogspot.com<http://www.kazimir.petrovich.blogspot.com/>
http://pinterest.com/kazimir/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org/attachments/20121012/d08d743b/attachment-0003.htm>


More information about the Ansteorra-rapier mailing list