[Ansteorra-rapier] Proposed revision to rapier rules

[Chris Zakes]

At 11:04 AM 10/12/2012, Pug wrote:

>Good Morning,
>
>   I must apologize for stepping away from the discussion for too long. I
>thought I was at a lull in work before starting this and then was blindsided
>with a new analysis. I'm catching up on a number of topics all at once.
>
>   First for some frivolity. Just because some people are pack rats and keep
>items in their bags that aren't generally used or in some cases possibly
>illegal, it doesn't mean we need support their addiction. We are forming an
>intervention!

I think you've got that exactly backwards. I keep a pair of foils in 
my bag because I *might* encounter someone at fighter practice or an 
event who doesn't have, or isn't comfortable with a heavier blade. If 
that's an addiction, it's an addiction to including more people in 
SCA rapier combat, not to a blade type I've only used once in the 
past year or so.


>  Second, the problem trying to be solved is the potential of safety or
>rules violations raised from weapons that are used less than 10 times a year
>(SWAG based on the bouts people have talked about). Even if it's 10X that
>number, it is still less than 1%. Of the thousands and thousands of bouts a
>year in this kingdom, the foil and epee are statistically not used in our
>Kingdom. Unfortunately should there be an incident the SCA/Kingdom, marshal
>and fighter could be held responsible because they are allowed by our rules
>but probably not given the same scrutiny as the heavy rapier blades.

Huh? Have you bought into the notion that the heavier blades are 
somehow intrinsically safer than the light ones? All the available 
statistics say that notion is wrong--neither blade type is 
intrinsically safer than any other.

Or if you're worried that some marshals may not be trained to do a 
weapons inspection on a foil or epee, I expect there are plenty of 
others who are: myself, Don Robin, Don Dore, Don Aubrey... pretty 
much any rapier marshal who's been around for more than ten years.


>To correlate this, the recent lawsuit was not about if something was 
>allowed or
>that the SCA didn't have rules, but that the rules we have were not enforced
>because of the limited use of the program or concern for the need to abide
>by the rules.

Oh, please. If we're going to base all our actions on "What if we get 
sued?" we may as well close down the SCA and all go hide under the bed.


>   Based on some people's feedback, I should probably retire as a Rapier
>Marshal (but not C&T) as I don't know how to inspect these weapons, but also
>have not had a need to since I was authorized. While I am familiar with the
>weapons, I am not familiar with the methods in which they become unsafe. I
>am not an authorized combatant for them, so I will not inspect or learn to
>inspect them, nor will I marshaling bouts because I don't know when
>something wonky happened on the field that would generate an unsafe
>circumstance.

Or you could spend a few minutes learning about their failure modes 
and how to inspect them. It's not exactly quantum physics.


>I think that the argument that I don't have to face a weapon can be a bit
>misleading. While it is true on the surface, it means I must concede the
>bout to my opponent since I will not or cannot face them with a weapon that
>I am not authorized for.

I don't think that's how it works, unless both fighters are being 
unreasonable and unwilling to compromise on, say, a bout with single 
dagger or somesuch.


>We do not have separate light and heave blade
>tournaments anymore. In some smaller tournaments this could be used as a
>method for winning in a very cheesy, but legitimate, way assuming there is a
>marshal present who can inspect the weapon. Hopefully it couldn't come to
>pass, but it is as legitimate of a concern as many of the arguments for
>keeping them.
>
>   Like some others, my norm is to give the right of weapons choice to my
>opponent given my station in the SCA, defaulting to single blade if they
>don't make a choice. I even succeeding in getting Don Robin to choose at
>Queen's because of being a Landed Noble. In my fencing career, no one has
>ever choose a foil or epee, so I am not seeing the same experience others
>are saying they are seeing. It seems that some of us are moving in different
>circles.

How often do you get to the smaller shire tournaments and fighter 
practices, or places off the I-35/I-45 corridor? I think that's where 
you're most likely to see them.


>   For the youth program, there does not appear to be a requirement that an
>adult working with them is actually authorized for the *youth* style. It may
>be heresy, but this change doesn't prevent those that are comfortable and
>safe per the marshal to train youth with these blades. Our youth program
>(chivalric and rapier) extends beyond the Society rules as the ages are
>outside of the Society rules and it is a separate authorization specific to
>Ansteorra and not SCA-wide.
>
>   In regards to medical conditions creating problems using heavier blades,
>there is a solution that all of us should be doing that solves this.
>Training and conditioning. Some people need to work on foot work more,
>others need to work on stamina, and some need to work on wrist/arm strength.

Uh-huh. Now tell that to someone who has work-induced carpal tunnel 
injuries to the point that she can't even hold a coffee cup in one 
hand (let alone a schlager) and doesn't have the medical insurance to 
pay for surgery.


>This need is across any and all sports activity. One can train and be taught
>with a wide variety of items from broomsticks to weight bars, it is not
>until combat occurs that the restrictions for weapons kick in.
>
>   Ansteorra not banning other Society approved weapons is a fallacy. We have
>at least in the combat archery arena. We have set a maximum poundage (not
>just inch poundage) on shafted crossbows and reduced the tube crossbow
>maximums for both poundage and inch poundage. This means people with
>legitimate weapons in other kingdoms can't use them here. Why did we do
>this? In part due people voicing safety concerns, and in part to align with
>Gulf Wars which is what our army trains for all year.
>
>   Unless my reading of their rules is wrong, Ansteorra is the only Gulf War
>kingdom still allowing foils and epees. I know we've fought to allow them in
>tournaments at Gulf Wars in the past when we were told they wouldn't be
>allowed by the hosting kingdom, but it is to the point now that we are being
>unfair to our combatants by allowing them to be authorized for a weapons
>style that they won't be able to find someone to fight nor use in honor of
>our Crown and Kingdom.

Atlantia, the East and Aethelmearc all allow light blades. Do we have 
*nobody* from those kingdoms at Gulf War?

And how are we being "unfair" to our combatants? They'd have to be 
awfully clueless to not know that heavy blades are what they're most 
likely to encounter both here and at Gulf War.


>Regarding aesthetics, there are Kingdoms that do require plastic armor to
>be covered and a policy came down within the last year (or so) that required
>all modern logos to be covered Society-wide on the armored combat field. We
>are evolving as an organization and it is good and right to do so. We do
>need to remember the "good old days", but we don't need to keep them with a
>stranglehold. Looking forward, there will be a day when modern fencing masks
>die out as more fighters get helms, but that day is not here. The day for
>foils and epees to die out has come, and in my opinion past.

In period there *were* no fencing masks--they weren't developed until 
a century or two post SCA period. And how likely is it that you'd see 
someone in, esentially, street clothes, but wearing a full-face helm? 
(Probably about as often as you'd see someone in street clothes 
wearing a flak jacket today.) This is an area where our safety 
concerns have to outweigh our desire for historical accuracy, just as 
we require the armored folks to wear full helms even if their persona 
would have worn a Norman pot helm, or Norse spangenhelm.


>Rattan is *not* used to simulate a sword, it is used to simulate a
>training weapon such as a waster. Unfortunately because of the litigious
>society we live in, we have to choose safety during a failure versus the
>look and feel of a wood waster. On the other hand, a foil and epee are used
>to simulate weapons that did exist, do exist, and we have safety measures
>that permit the legitimate use of the "real McCoy".

Yes, and you're arguing agains a point that nobody has made: that 
foils or epees (or schlagers, for that matter) are somehow better 
rapier simulators than a Del Tin. Nobody is saying that, nobody *has* 
said that in this discussion.


>Personally, I think the Rapier community has a higher standard, at least
>since I've paid attention, to not only dress better, but to look more
>historically accurate than the Armored community. While we have our bad
>apples, they have their good apples as well. Let's not use the argument that
>because an inferior example exists as a justification that we should lower
>our standards as well.

How are we lowering our standards? Foils and epees are legal in 
Ansteorra right now. If someone was proposing adding fiberglass 
rapiers to the mix, or bringing back rattan daggers, or requiring 
that everybody fight at least one bout with foil or epee in every 
rapier tournament, *that* could be construed as lowering our 
standards, but not this.

         -Tivar Moondragon