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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,Sans-serif"> Corvin,</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,Sans-serif"> Lets touch on your definition of a Duel. Are we talking brawling, a spontaneous street fight? Or are do we speak of a formal, drop the gauntlet, find a second, meet me at dawn, challenge? If it is spur of the moment fight, I doubt you would have the time to done your mail. Then, again, your rapier tough could come prepared for trouble. In the case of the formal duel, if you have time to plan, wouldn't you seek any advantage that would help save you life? There are several accounts of duelist arriving to fight with chain mail under their doublets. Not, sporting, but when your life is on the line , you must wonder how often it was considered.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,Sans-serif"> Just my two shillings</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,Sans-serif"> Ashe<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Thom Rolston<BR>ihos@onebox.com - email<BR>(512) 682-6901 x2721 - voicemail/fax<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Kevin Wilson <KEVWILSON@SWBELL.NET><BR>Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:33:13 -0500<BR>To: <ANSTEORRA-RAPIER@LISTS.ANSTEORRA.ORG><BR>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] Ansteorra-rapier Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4<BR><BR>Well, using the logic of "what would happen in a duel", most of us assume<BR>that a duel is civilian combat and we are wearing civilian "street"<BR>clothing, so why would a mail gauntlet have been worn? We have masks/helms<BR>and gorgets, and additional protection for elbows & knees in Cut & Thrust,<BR>but those are conventions we use for protection from injury. Unless<BR>something is being done as "armor as worn", and Cut & Thrust which<BR>transitioned from armored to civilian combat, using a mail gauntlet to fight<BR>a rapier duel seems inconsistent at least, goofy at most. IMO.<BR><BR>Corvin<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: ansteorra-rapier-bounces@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>[mailto:ansteorra-rapier-bounces@lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of<BR>ansteorra-rapier-request@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:33 PM<BR>To: ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>Subject: Ansteorra-rapier Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4<BR><BR>Send Ansteorra-rapier mailing list submissions to<BR>ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR><BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org<BR><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR>ansteorra-rapier-request@lists.ansteorra.org<BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR>ansteorra-rapier-owner@lists.ansteorra.org<BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than<BR>"Re: Contents of Ansteorra-rapier digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR>1. Re: gauntlets and rapier (James Crouchet)<BR>2. Re: gauntlets and rapier (Chris Zakes)<BR>3. Re: gauntlets and rapier (Northern Cadet)<BR>4. Re: gauntlets and rapier (DonPieter@aol.com)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:31:47 -0500<BR>From: James Crouchet <JAMES@CROUCHET.COM><BR>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier<BR>To: Ansteorra RapierNet <ANSTEORRA-RAPIER@LISTS.ANSTEORRA.ORG><BR>Message-ID: <470C0F63.4010105@crouchet.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>I will correct a bit of my language from my previous post -- this is<BR>specifically a chain mail gauntlet, not any metal gauntlet. It is proof<BR>against CUTS, not thrusts. Here is the language from the newest rules (which<BR>hopefully were signed in at Crown):<BR><BR>Mail gauntlets shall be allowed as a parrying device and shall<BR>protect the hand from cuts wherever it is covered by metal.<BR>Gauntlets shall be constructed in a reasonably similar fashion to<BR>that of historical examples. (i.e. actual chain mail and a leather<BR>glove, all chain mail, etc.). Simulations made of cloth, paint, tape<BR>and the like shall not be used as a mail gauntlet.<BR><BR>For any other gauntlets or armor, it would have to be played under the armor<BR>as worn rule, as Piet said. The difference is that not only would both<BR>fighters have to agree, the tournament organizers would have to ok it too.<BR>If you have a cool idea it should not be hard to get that buy in.<BR><BR><BR>In answer to Brian's question, yes, you can still grab the blade. I see no<BR>rule against it. However, given the rules I see little advantage to grasping<BR>with it rather than a leather gloved hand.<BR><BR>In answer to Rurik's query: No matter if the mail covers the palm or not,<BR>the palm can still be damaged if it grabs a blade. The purpose of this rule:<BR><BR>If the blade that is grasped moves or twists in the grasping hand,<BR>that hand is deemed disabled.<BR><BR><BR>is to reduce incidents of fighters just hanging on to the blade and perhaps<BR>wrestling over it. Also, it helps balance the game so the guy who's blade is<BR>grasped is not helpless. Those needs do not change just because the hand is<BR>covered with mail. Yes, it seems a bit unrealistic that a blade can still<BR>slice through the mail but remember that in a real fight the person who's<BR>blade is grasped would probably punch or kick the fighter grasping his<BR>blade. Since in most duels the fighters were similarly armed I'll leave it<BR>to your imagination what such a punch would do. Obviously that is not an<BR>option in our game.<BR><BR>>From a rules standpoint, I will also point out that the latter is an <BR>>SCA<BR>rule and so takes precedence over the Ansteorra specific mail gauntlet rule<BR>(which is a kingdom specific application of the SCA armor as worn rule).<BR><BR>So, that is the rule no matter how you slice it ;-)<BR><BR>Christian Dor?, KRM<BR><BR><BR>> From: rurikthered@swordworks.org<BR>><BR>> Also,<BR>><BR>> I assume you are talkign about a glove with only chain on the back <BR>> side and not necessarily a fine maille across the palm (like a <BR>> butchers glove)in blade grabbing, correct?<BR>><BR>> Rurik<BR>><BR>><BR>> <BR>>> So the hand with the guantlet can still be used for blade grabbing? <BR>>> Just wanting to make sure.<BR>>><BR>>> Brian<BR>>><BR>>> <BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org/attachme<BR>nts/20071009/e65830c7/attachment.htm <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:34:35 -0500<BR>From: Chris Zakes <DONTIVAR@GMAIL.COM><BR>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier<BR>To: Ansteorra RapierNet <ANSTEORRA-RAPIER@LISTS.ANSTEORRA.ORG><BR>Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009182610.03386b28@gmail.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>At 03:26 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:<BR>>Both Robert and Brian are correct about the gauntlets.<BR>><BR>>Don Aeron added mail gauntlets in the April 2006 edition of the <BR>>Ansteorran Rapier Rules as a new secondary. This is not restricted to <BR>>"armor as worn" tournaments. However, as with all weapons and <BR>>secondaries, you and your opponent must agree that those weapons are <BR>>acceptable.<BR>><BR>>There are a few points of note concerning mail gauntlets:<BR>><BR>> * Basically, it must be a REAL metal/chain gauntlet and only the <BR>> areas covered with metal are proof against hits.<BR>> * The gauntlet does NOT protect the hand from being damaged if the <BR>> hand is grasping a blade and that blade moves or twists in the hand.<BR>Okay... I have a leather gauntlet covered by a butcher's glove. It's fine<BR>mesh mail over the entire hand down to the wrist. Are you saying that my<BR>palm is *still* susceptible to being cut if I grab a blade with the mail<BR>gauntlet? That doesn't seem right (and, arguably, it contradicts "When<BR>wearing a mail gauntlet, the hand will be protected from cuts wherever it is<BR>covered by steel.")<BR><BR>> * The gauntlet is a secondary, not a gloved hand, and thus is NOT <BR>> approved for use against the other fighter's person (no "fleeting <BR>> contact").<BR><BR>What's the reasoning behind this? To prevent injuries? Have there been any?<BR><BR>-Tivar Moondragon<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org/attachme<BR>nts/20071009/a5bbf3d3/attachment-0001.html <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:56:39 -0500<BR>From: "Northern Cadet" <GASSION_DE_BEAUMARCHAIS@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier<BR>To: "'Ansteorra RapierNet'" <ANSTEORRA-RAPIER@LISTS.ANSTEORRA.ORG><BR>Message-ID: <BAY134-DAV16B14F4BDA14670AC7AC3BBDA60@PHX.GBL><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>I agree with Don Dore that a mail gauntlet isn't much use give the rules he<BR>has quoted. I think the idea behind his rationale is reasonable if we keep<BR>the concept of competition in mind. I'm not a fan of the way we utilize<BR>blade grabbing and don't use it in the SCA due to it's restrictive rules. I<BR>wonder if they might be modified for C&T to be less restrictive and allow<BR>for a more period interpretation? I have little concern that someone will<BR>wrest my C&T approved blades to the point of breakage.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Lord Gassion de Beaumarchais<BR>Cadet to Don James Francis Navarre<BR>Mooneschadowe Insegnante <BR><BR>Control thyself, or be ruled by another... <BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: ansteorra-rapier-bounces@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>[mailto:ansteorra-rapier-bounces@lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of James<BR>Crouchet<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:32 PM<BR>To: Ansteorra RapierNet<BR>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier<BR><BR><BR>I will correct a bit of my language from my previous post -- this is<BR>specifically a chain mail gauntlet, not any metal gauntlet. It is proof<BR>against CUTS, not thrusts. Here is the language from the newest rules (which<BR>hopefully were signed in at Crown):<BR><BR><BR><BR>Mail gauntlets shall be allowed as a parrying device and shall protect the<BR>hand from cuts wherever it is covered by metal. Gauntlets shall be<BR>constructed in a reasonably similar fashion to that of historical examples.<BR>(i.e. actual chain mail and a leather glove, all chain mail, etc.).<BR>Simulations made of cloth, paint, tape and the like shall not be used as a<BR>mail gauntlet.<BR><BR><BR>For any other gauntlets or armor, it would have to be played under the armor<BR>as worn rule, as Piet said. The difference is that not only would both<BR>fighters have to agree, the tournament organizers would have to ok it too.<BR>If you have a cool idea it should not be hard to get that buy in.<BR><BR><BR>In answer to Brian's question, yes, you can still grab the blade. I see no<BR>rule against it. However, given the rules I see little advantage to grasping<BR>with it rather than a leather gloved hand.<BR><BR>In answer to Rurik's query: No matter if the mail covers the palm or not,<BR>the palm can still be damaged if it grabs a blade. The purpose of this rule:<BR><BR><BR><BR>If the blade that is grasped moves or twists in the grasping hand, that hand<BR>is deemed disabled.<BR><BR><BR><BR>is to reduce incidents of fighters just hanging on to the blade and perhaps<BR>wrestling over it. Also, it helps balance the game so the guy who's blade is<BR>grasped is not helpless. Those needs do not change just because the hand is<BR>covered with mail. Yes, it seems a bit unrealistic that a blade can still<BR>slice through the mail but remember that in a real fight the person who's<BR>blade is grasped would probably punch or kick the fighter grasping his<BR>blade. Since in most duels the fighters were similarly armed I'll leave it<BR>to your imagination what such a punch would do. Obviously that is not an<BR>option in our game.<BR><BR>>From a rules standpoint, I will also point out that the latter is an <BR>>SCA<BR>rule and so takes precedence over the Ansteorra specific mail gauntlet rule<BR>(which is a kingdom specific application of the SCA armor as worn rule).<BR><BR>So, that is the rule no matter how you slice it ;-)<BR><BR>Christian Dor?, KRM<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: rurikthered@swordworks.org<BR><BR><BR><BR>Also,<BR><BR><BR><BR>I assume you are talkign about a glove with only chain on the back side<BR><BR>and not necessarily a fine maille across the palm (like a butchers<BR><BR>glove)in blade grabbing, correct?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Rurik<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>So the hand with the guantlet can still be used for blade grabbing? Just<BR><BR>wanting to make sure.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Brian<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org/attachme<BR>nts/20071009/75f4d7ff/attachment-0001.htm <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:31:34 EDT<BR>From: DonPieter@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier<BR>To: ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>Message-ID: <CAA.1930DC5C.343D8576@AOL.COM><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR><BR>In a message dated 10/9/2007 3:27:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time,<BR>james@crouchet.com writes:<BR><BR>Both Robert and Brian are correct about the gauntlets.<BR><BR>Don Aeron added mail gauntlets in the April 2006 edition of the Ansteorran<BR>Rapier Rules as a new secondary. This is not restricted to "armor as worn" <BR>tournaments. However, as with all weapons and secondaries, you and your<BR>opponent must agree that those weapons are acceptable.<BR><BR>There are a few points of note concerning mail gauntlets:<BR><BR>* Basically, it must be a REAL metal/chain gauntlet and only the areas<BR><BR>covered with metal are proof against hits. <BR>* The gauntlet does NOT protect the hand from being damaged if the<BR>hand <BR>is grasping a blade and that blade moves or twists in the hand.<BR>* The gauntlet is a secondary, not a gloved hand, and thus is NOT <BR>approved for use against the other fighter's person (no "fleeting<BR>contact"). <BR>Christian Dor?, Kingdom Rapier Marshal<BR><BR><BR>Ok so I was not all wrong in the thought that it is not an automatic armor.<BR><BR>It has to be OK'd by the opponent.<BR>Pieter<BR><BR><BR><BR>************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org/attachme<BR>nts/20071009/d2b5c92c/attachment.html <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Ansteorra-rapier mailing list<BR>Ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org<BR><BR><BR>End of Ansteorra-rapier Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4<BR>***********************************************<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Ansteorra-rapier mailing list<BR>Ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org<BR></DIV>