<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I've known new fencers who like to warm up with light rapier and then switch over to heavy rapier. My understanding is that they feel that it makes it easier for them to mentally process the heavy rapier fight as it happens, instead of after. I never really explored it, but they believed they were having some success with that.</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Candice / Caitilin<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Andrew Heinrich <andrew.heinrich@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Ansteorra RapierNet <ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, October 15, 2012 2:55 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] Pros and Cons of change<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv1370580069>So, this begs a question for me -
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto">Why not train with the tool you intend to use on the field? Of what advantage is it to use, say, a Foil, to train with instead of the rapier you will fight with? I look at the foil and epee as *bad* training tools, because they teach all those bad habits (vis a vis the rapier) you mention in your post here. What are the benefits of using a foil like a rapier in training?</DIV>
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<DIV>- Mateo</DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv1370580069gmail_quote>On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Puck Curtis <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:puck.curtis@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:puck.curtis@gmail.com">puck.curtis@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=yiv1370580069gmail_quote>I have an additional Con.
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<DIV>Ansteorra's legacy culture resulted in significant transitional pain moving from the lighter blade technique to the heavier blade technique. Specifically, I refer to the newer French foil/smallsword practice of parrying with the point on target (in presence) which was not safe practice with the heavier blades. To parry with a bent wrist to keep the point maintained on the target was gospel when I was taught in Ansteorra but that doesn't fully close the line of offense. Because the smaller (less massive and faster) blade's circular parries could compensate for the weaker defensive position this "legacy code" worked in a world primarily populated with lighter blades derived from a sporting tradition. Ansteorra was a dominant SCA rapier power in the 1990s.</DIV>
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<DIV>Actual rapier practice as described in the manuals typically closes the line completely and redirects the point during the final stages of the counter-attack or riposte. In contrast, the martial art as practiced by the Italians maximized defensive potential for as long as possible at the expense of offense.</DIV>
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<DIV>Unfortunately, when the SCA world moved onward the light-blade sporting bias left Ansteorra behind with regards to high-level play with heavier blades. Not only was the Ansteorran-classic tradition falling behind, a highly vocal portion of the population slavishly defended the point-in-line parries derived from the French sport tradition. </DIV>
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<DIV>"I can make circular parries just as quickly with my 42" rapier as I can with my foil." </DIV>
<DIV>(A statement which defies physics at every level.)</DIV>
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<DIV>This counter-movement actively applied the brakes to the Ansteorran rapier tradition which was once a powerhouse of combat superiority. As a result Ansteorra was left to slowly dig itself out of the French foil hole while other kingdoms barreled forward immersing themselves in historical practices targeted towards the popular heavier weapons of the present day. The counter-movement is a boat anchor holding back the kingdom's rapier culture. </DIV>
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<DIV>When I left 10 years ago, Ansteorra was like a new computer running old legacy code and continuously crashing on the bugs. The fencing was broken in funny ways and it needed to be re-tooled for the new hardware. Our top guys were beginning to make the transition to heavy blades but that migration was not yet complete. It may be that the kingdom has moved past these artifacts of French foil that were so pervasive while I was there but that would be in spite of the counter-movement's desire to keep these weapons around. </DIV>
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<DIV>If the training doesn't match the combat, you will lose.</DIV>
<DIV>It's not rocket science.</DIV>
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<DIV>All this and I should be the one presenting the argument for keeping foils. They potentially make a great pedagogical tool for training with the rapier provided you don't use that crap smallsword technique. For crying out loud I took 3 exams with these weapons and if I ended up in Ansteorra again tomorrow I would use foils and epees for training my crew. But, I wouldn't stomp my foot and frothily demand that Ansteorra maintain tournament legal rules for these weapons. Train with the pedagogy tool, fence in competition with the weapon.</DIV>
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<DIV>~P.</DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv1370580069h5>On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Pug Bainter <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:pug@pug.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:pug@pug.net">pug@pug.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal>Good Morning,<U></U><U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal> We’ve given the discussion about five days now including a weekend and there appear to be no knew arguments for or against. Based off of that, I’m going to try to succinctly articulate the Pros and Cons of this change. To revisit, the proposed change was:<U></U><U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.2in" class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><B><I>Ansteorra convention:</I></B><I> Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light Rapier is to be eliminated within the borders of Ansteorra effective March 17<SUP>th</SUP>, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier blades can only be used with variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom Rapier Marshal at least 30 days in advance such as for historical SCA theme events. Ansteorra’s Rapier authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades at out of Kingdom events where allowed.<U></U><U></U></I></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal>Some individuals have suggested it be reworded as such:<U></U><U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.2in" class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><B><I>Ansteorra convention:</I></B><I> Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light Rapier is to be eliminated outside of training within the borders of Ansteorra effective March 17<SUP>th</SUP>, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier blades can only be used with variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom Rapier Marshal at least 30 days in advance such as for historical SCA theme events. Ansteorra’s Rapier authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades at out of Kingdom events where allowed.<U></U><U></U></I></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div><U></U><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><SPAN>·<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>Cons:<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>The blades are allowed by Society and have not been proven to be unsafe so we need to allow them.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>It eliminates part of our origins within SCA Fencing.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>It is exclusionary of those who prefer lighter weight blades.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>It eliminates an option for those who are physically unable to use heavier blades.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div><U></U><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><SPAN>·<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>Pros:<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>The blades are statistically non-existent comparing the possibly 10s of bouts to the 1000s of bouts per year.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>Heavy blades are more historically accurate than light blades.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>A significant majority of the SCA kingdoms as well as most inter-kingdom wars have gone to heavy blades only.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>The enforcement of the regulations around the lighter blades is lax at best creating a risk point.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><U></U><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings"><SPAN>§<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>Combatants being authorized without having shown to be safe.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><U></U><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings"><SPAN>§<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>Marshals being authorized without knowing how to inspect the equipment.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><U></U><SPAN><SPAN>o<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><U></U>Light blades break more frequently than heavy blades elevating the risk due to lax enforcement.<U></U><U></U></div>
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<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal> Please let me know right away if I misrepresented any of the above or missed a significant Pro or Con.<U></U><U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal> There were several side discussions, but I think these were the ones that spoke directly to the proposal.<U></U><U></U></div>
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<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal>In Service,<U></U><U></U></div>
<div class=yiv1370580069MsoNormal>Pug<U></U><U></U></div></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=yiv1370580069im>_______________________________________________<BR>Ansteorra-rapier mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org">Ansteorra-rapier@lists.ansteorra.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org</A><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><SPAN class=yiv1370580069HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all>
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