[Bonwicke] Gothic Site (long)

estarkey estarkey at starband.net
Sun Feb 1 22:56:22 PST 2004

i would like to have a good discussion on a permanent site for gothic at
Crescent Wrench.  Please, everybody look at sites that you know, sites that
you have heard of, etc all through the region.  Take notes on costs for the
site -site fee and whether or not there is adequate sanitary facilities or
we will have to import portajohns and showers, and how much those will cost.
Look at the available of potable water and electricity.  Parking for cars
bringing 300+ people to the site.  Wet site.  Secluded, if possible.  Room
for all martial activities, tourney and melee space for both heavy and light
*at the same time*, archery, and thrown weapons, and permission to have all
of them.  Merchant space (and permission to have them).  Tent space.  RV
space.  Children's play area.  Permanent pavillions.  Kitchens.  Distance to
hotel/motels.  Distance to grocery stores/liquor stores/hospitals.  Extra
site features, swimming, nature paths, etc.  Distances from each WR group.
Shade.  Can site restrictions be lived with?

Take pictures.  Get site quotes.  Find trees.  Find something better than
Hords Creek at $1100 for 300 people for a Friday arrival, Monday departure
on Labor Day Weekend (showers and flush toliets, water and electric.)  START

Sweetwater was okay until they jacked up the site fee from $200 for the 3
day weekend to $720 for the 3 day weekend, meaning the group sponsoring the
event needed to make at least $520 more at gate to break even.  Mendersham
has arranged for the portajohns and showers from either a Sweetwater or
Abilene Company since I moved here, and either fronted that part of the cost
or arranged to get it paid after the event.  Portajohns and showers ran
about 1200 bucks.

rough budget using sweetwater this year:  500 for misc, 720 site, 1200
portajohns and showers = 2420  if you figure on 200 adults coming (low, bad
weather, etc), you gotta charge at least 12 bucks a head to get near a break
even point.

rough budget using hords creek, 500 for misc, 1100 for site = 1600.  heck of
 a lot easier to survive a bad turnout, especially since it is a new site,
and one shire is responsible for profit or loss at the event.

I actually put a lot of thought and effort into keeping the site at
Sweetwater, and keeping the price down.  Ask any of the autocrats after
Eleanor.  I put a lot of work into keeping the price at $200 for Crossrode
Keep's Gothic.  Had the individual who took over running the park and the
City Manager of Sweetwater been reasonable, we would have it there this
year.  As Angus stated, getting a suitable site for a large event must be
done early in the year, especially since it is on the last vacation 3 day
weekend of summer.

And yes, I have put a lot of thought into Gothic from a long term standpoint
for a long time.  I have attended every post gothic meeting starting with
Selwyn's.  After last year, I am *more than aware* of how much work it takes
to put one on, and what kind of area is needed for everything to run
smoothly so people have a good time at the Western Region's Gothic War.  I
have looked at every event site that I have gone to for the past three years
here in the region and thought about whether or not it was suitable for
Gothic Wars.

There is a good possibility that the site may change again for Rufus'
Gothic.  But at least y'all in the region have time to buckle down and find
a really good permanent site.  I hope that Hords Creek will work out.  Since
there has never been a SCA event there, I simply do not know if it will.
Hell, they may cancel our reservation after they see Mendersham's Defender
there in May.  I guarentee that anyone who goes out looking for a new site
has my full support, and now they have a year to do it in, not like we had
to do.  And at least 3 regional meetings to discuss it at before a decision
has to be made.<G>.

I have heard a lot of griping about the Sweetwater site, dust, no shade, no
grass (7 year drougth), have to use portajohns, driving distance...  Angus,
Byron, Sven and I used up a weekend looking, discussing, taking pictures,
talking to site owners, looking at nearby facilities, reading site
restrictions, and came up with a place.  Feel free to do the same.

(milage from rand mcnally.com)

Amarillo to Sweetwater 244 miles,
Amarillo to Coleman  321 miles,
Lubbock to Sweetwater 124 miles,
Lubbock to Coleman 214,
Big Springs to Sweetwater 67 miles,
Big Springs to Coleman  158 miles
+91 miles

Midland to Sweetwater 108 miles
Midland to Coleman 199 miles

Odessa to Sweetwater 129 miles
Odessa to Coleman  220 miles

San Angelo to Sweetwater 76 miles
San Angelo to Coleman 72 miles
-4 miles
Abilene to Sweetwater 40 miles
Abilene to Coleman 53 miles
+13 miles

my house to sweetwater site 10 miles
my house to coleman 83 miles
+73 miles

What I remember about previous gothics, money, type, autocrats, etc:  y'all
can correct my memory

Elenor's Gothic - profits split evenly between the Shires, griping because
some groups did more than others, but everybody got the same amount -
Regional Event

Selwyn's Gothic - profits held in Adlersrue account, until something? -
Regional Event  first appearance of showers

Chiang's Gothic - profits went to Bonwicke, agreement by the Region's
Seneschals to refurbish Bonwick's coffers - Regional Event.

Sayfiye's Gothic - profits went to the Ansteorra gate -Regional Event.
Crossrode/Marianna was slated for this year, but Trelac ended up as sponsor.
Sayfiye's magnificent job as autocrat of Gothic one month after serving the
Crown of Ansteorra for 9 months.

Kingdom Law change - there are no more "Regional Events".  Events must be
sponsored by a individual group or be a multigroup event, each multigroup
event must be approved by the Kingdom seneshal.  At post gothic meeting,
agreement to have one group sponsor gothic each year, rotating through the

Marianna's Gothic - profits kept by Crossrode Keep -Regional Event,
sponsored by one group.  Autocrat"s spouse unexpected serious heath problems
reinforced the absolute wisdom of those who insisted that there be a
co-autocrat for gothic.

Kingdom Law Change - each shire can have only one calendar event

Ryah's Gothic - Regional Event, sponsored by one group.  Right now, we only
have expenses, no profit<G>

Rufus' Gothic - Regional Event, sponsored by one group, maybe two, whatever
gets Kingdom off our backs.

Comments, questions, and solutions welcome.
Ryah (the blunt)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Curn" <racerx9 at cox.net>
To: <bonwicke at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 6:08 PM
Subject: [Bonwicke] Gothic Site

> I have been reading the several responses and such to the Gothic War site
> and some people's approval or disapproval of the location for traveling.
> Some people have also stated that it does not matter where the site is, if
> people like the event they will attend it. Let me address the theory of
> liking and attending an event no matter where it is first.
> In the past Gothic had a large amount of support from the Northern Region,
> even though it conflicted with Weisinfuer's Baronial. It also had a good
> turn out from the Outlands. I do believe people will go to an event if
> like it, but distance is a factor. Gothic had knights who lived 30 minutes
> from Weisinfur traveling 4 hours to Gothic, because they liked the event,
> very few from the South came to support it. Since it has moved further
> South, less from the North and the Outlands have supported the event and
> more from the South have began to support it. Was it an even loss vs.
> who knows, the point is just because people like an event do not expect
> to chase it without regards to its location. So to say that if people like
> it they will come to it is far from accurate because those of you who have
> seen the changes in attendance, over the last 10 years, from different
> regions will have to agree.
> Onto the next area.
> Is Gothic War a regional Event or an event each group puts on for the
> region?
> If it is a "Regional Event", then should the entire region not be in on
> deciding a good location for the event? I have not looked, but I can
> guarantee I will start, but surely, there is a suitable and semi central
> location. In addition, I got a feeling from someone's post that is was
> supporting the event and trying to get a good turnout. If that is the
> then let's moves Gothic to the Steppes area and get twice the turnout it
> ever had, I mean let's face it, the Central is the strongest area for
> for a reason. The co-autocrat for this years Gothic is Rufus, he lives way
> up in the North in Adlersruhe. Is there a slight possibility that when he
> auocrats it next year he is not going to have if it the same place it is
> this year due to distance, and with that in mind, the person who autocrats
> it after him, are they going to change it again? If I autocrat an event I
> want it in a location I know my populace is going to support, I am not
> saying Rufus would or would not move it, I am speaking hypothetically and
> wondering how much thought has been put into this on a long term stand
> point.
> And my last issue the site itself.
> If I do this right, click on the flowing link
> http://www1.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/hords/GSpolicy.htm  and read numbers 6
> 7. Just in case it doesn't work here is what it says:6. Quiet hours will
> observed throughout the park between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM. Noises which
> unreasonably annoy persons are prohibited at any time. No Amplified Music
> Allowed. 7. The gate to the park will be closed at 10:00 PM and opened at
> 6:00 AM. Persons will not be allowed to enter the park during this time.
> So what are those people coming in late suppose to do? And are we going to
> get in trouble for those who like to stay up until the wee hours drumming
> and such? I hope that these issues have already been addressed but I have
> dealt with the corps before, and from my experience, their rules are law.
> Sorry so lengthy just some of my thoughts and questions.
> Curn
> _______________________________________________
> Western mailing list
> Bonwicke at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/western

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