[Bryn-gwlad] Helm liners

Tue Aug 15 07:54:27 PDT 2006

The suspension comes from the peaks being sewn together (however, in my
case there are grommets at the top of every peak and I use a leather
lace to hold them together...makes it adjustable) at the top of your
head.  This transfers the blow to where the liner attaches to the edge
of the helmet...that's why I reinforce that part better than what is on
these websites.  The blow doesn't transfer the force down to the padding
(which is for your comfort, not force reducing) unless it is hard enough
to break the lacing around the edge (where it attaches to the helm) or
the leather lace breaks.

I also forget to mention that I also use it for jousting.  In my
experience, this system works very well for hits all over the crown and
even thrusts to the face...much better than any close cell foam helmet
I've used.  Much more comfortable.

Hoever, I'm only one case...there are many folks out there who fight on
the chivalric field much more than I who can attest to this better than
I....I picked this system up from Brian Price.

In my case, I don't actually use padding...but if I did, I'd probably
use horse hair since I can get plenty. ;-)

Eule/Steve
Unus sed Leo

-----Original Message-----
From: bryn-gwlad-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:bryn-gwlad-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Sir Lyonel
Oliver Grace
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:31 AM
To: Eule
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Helm liners

Salut cozyns,

My apologies, Master Eule, but I don't see how you can make the
suspension argument in this case. The high points of the padding rest
against your head. A blow to the helm is absorbed by the padding
compressing. In a suspension system, the force of a blow is absorbed by
tension in straps or webbing. The helm protection described in the two
sites posted by Maelgwyn contain only chin straps.

As I said, I see many positive aspects of this padding method. Once I
get my other armor repair and reconstruction projects complete, I might
try a liner like this. 

Nonetheless, I still see no sense in using cotton batting instead of
closed-cell foam. In fact, I doubt that I could, in good conscience,
approve the use of this pad:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/in_helm1.jpg
Photographs can be misleading. I'd have to see it, but it doesn't look
like it meets our requirements.

Nor do I see any reason to sew the padding in place. If it fits the helm
and your head, strapping it on should be sufficient.

lo vostre per vos servir
Meser Lyonel
_________________________________
Micel yfel deth se unwritere.
--AElfric of York

  _____  

From: eule at ecpi.com
To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:17:53 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Helm liners

The primary protective role this system provides is suspension, not
padding and achieves (in my opinion) better results.  Although they are
sewn in, in my case, I take them out and wash them as needed.  I also
reinforce the edge a bit more than they did in these articles.

I use my helms on the mounted combat and rapier fields...don't know
about the rules for chivalric, but I do know that other knights are
using this system effectively and safely.

Eule/Steve
Unus sed Leo

-----Original Message-----
From: bryn-gwlad-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:bryn-gwlad-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Sir Lyonel
Oliver Grace
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 4:34 PM
To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Helm liners

Salut cozyns,

I like the instructions and image set from the Forth Armoury site, but
this guide provides several points at which I sincerely question the
wisdom of cleaving too closely to medieval practices. 

First and foremost, that liner is going to sop up sweat. I would not
want something like that sewn into my helm. As the writer suggests
toward the end of the article, the points in the crown of the helm
should fit together ("so that there is not so much empty space"). I
would stitch them together. Since he plans to pass the straps through
the liner anyway, why should it be sewn into the helm? This strikes me
as slavish and ill-considered re-creation. Anything absorbent that goes
into a helm should be designed to take out and toss in the laundry.

Second, I question the choice of padding material. The Complete
Participants Handbook requires:

All parts of the helm that come in contact with the wearers head when
worn will have a

minimum of 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) closed-cell foam padding or the
equivalent. Any part of

the helm that is likely to come into contact with the wearers
unprotected neck or body will

also be suitably padded.

The wording in the Society Marshal's Handbook is similar, substituting
only "resilient or closed-cell foam" and being a bit more anal about the
metric conversion (12.7 mm). 

In any case, will ten layers of cotton batting in a roll provide similar
protection? I know it won't provide the same resiliency. The pictures
showing the thickness of the padding in place don't look reassuring.
Also, I believe the cotton batting will lose recoverability with
repeated soakings. That's just what cotton batting does. Both of the
articles suggested here chose cotton batting for their padding
materials, apparently in an attempt at something approaching
authenticity. Studies of existing armor padding from the fifteenth
century suggests a range of possible stuffing materials including linen
batting, rags, and even straw. I doubt, however, that our medieval
forebears expected to take as many stout blunt blows to the helm as a
typical SCA chivalric combatant.

Another consideration for the padding materials: the cotton/linen
padding has to be thicker than closed-cell foam to get the same degree
of protection. That might not fit in some of our helms. 

So, all points considered, I might be willing to try this pattern, but
I'd stuff the linen with closed-cell foam, and I'd not sew it into my
helm.

lo vostre per vos servir
Meser Lyonel
_________________________________
Micel yfel deth se unwritere.
--AElfric of York

  _____  

> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:59:25 -0500
> From: kcmarsh at cox.net
> To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Helm liners
> 
> I have mentioned linen helm liners to several people at practice
recently.  See http://www.nacs.net/~pietro/SCAArmorHelmLiner.html and
http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/helm_liner.htm for
instructions on making quilted helm liners.
> 
> Maelgwyn
> _______________________________________________
> Bryn-gwlad mailing list
> Bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/bryn-gwlad-ansteorra.org

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