ES - Middle eastern costuming question all the data to date.

[willow l herbert]

Greetings from Willow de Wisp.
For those of you who got my pervious post there is new,interesting data
at the end of this one. Please past the data along. 

Dear folks I sent this question out to some of the notable researcher in
the SCA.  Here are some of the replies. These researchers seem to taking
most of their information from the Topakapi garments. I haven't gotten
hold of that book some I have no opinion.  Isabetta Giovanna Rucellai, C,
CL is a friend of Lady Rhinnion. Mistress Catarina is one of the best
Middle Eastern researcher I have found .Lisa Juarez <spamtwo at mediaone.net
. Mistress Isabetta seems to have done very good research for about eight
years. I am having problems getting her e-mail address out of my machine.
I will send it later.
Willow.

I have a middle eastern costuming question for you.  When you make a
Ghawazee
coat full in the skirt, is the traditional/documentably period way to use
1)
triangular gores, 2) rectangular gores, 3) no gores- just cut the skirt
full
circle, 4) none of the above??  And, if they are gores on the side of the
skirt, is the bottom hem rounded or straight lines?  Remember the bit
about no
curves cut in middle eastern clothing are period- is that true here, too?
	And, whether gores or full circle cut are used, if the cloth has
vertical
stripes, a chevron effect is created on the skirt sides, which looks very
suspiciously not right/period to me.  Do you have info that it is
documentable?


The best book to look at for Turkish coat cuts is J.M. Roger's Topakapi
Saray: Costumes, Embroidaries, and Textiles.  It is filled with color
photo's of extant garments!  

If by ghawazee coat, you mean the one cut under the breasts; I have yet
to
document this in period.  All of the illuminations and extant garments
that
I have seen show a v-neck or a small mandarin collar with the coat worn
closed to the neck.  All of the coats that I have seen have side gores
added at the top of the hips and falling in a triangular shape to the
hem.
There are two ways to do the hem either round the edges or cut it
straight.
 I have seen both.  The triangular gores are cut to a point at the top if
the fabric is a heavy weight and rounded at the top if the fabric is
lighter weight( see J.M. Roger).  About the stripes - I have no idea.  I
don't like stripes so I have not really paid attention to whether or not
they are found in period coats and how the side seams fall.  Off the top
of
my head, the only stripes I have seen are post period.  However, striped
fabric was certainly available during period and men's garments were
often
made of it.  I just don't recall seeing any examples of Turkish women's
coats being made of it.  Could be though.
Hollie


I would suggest that this person look at some garments from the Topkapi
Sariyi Museum books or Suleiyman the Magnificent.  Both books have
garments
from the period and one can see the cuts of the different garments.  From
the experience of attempting to construct such garments, it seems that
the
lighter weight fabrics had gores that went perpendicular to the body a
few
inches and then curved down at an angle on the sides and were sewn
straight
down in the front.  The heavier weighted fabrics had less fabric bunched
at
hips/waist.  You had a more severe angle, almost a right triangle shaped
gore.  It is my perception that the lower part of the garment is not that
full, definitely not close to a circle.

In addition, I would remind someone that the cut under the breast is not
period.  The closure system for the garments seem to be dominated by a
buttons with loops system.  One can make your own button out of fabric or
use a contrasting color of buttons.  I haven't found any example of
buttons
holes although that is what I use if I am making a "run around" coat--not
to
be entered in an A&S or used as an example of what a coat should look
like.

As far as curved at the bottom, from looking at the pictures of garments,
they seem to be slightly curved to me.  Again, they really aren't that
full
at the bottom so not that much curve would be needed to make a straight
line
when the garment is worn.  

I hope this helps.

Isabetta Giovanna Rucellai, C, CL
Meridies


  
I have no documentable period women's clothing I can refer to.  But, the
men's
clothing from the period have gores that are cut with rectangtles, and
with
triangles on different garments.  Once again one source cannot be the be
all
and end all  of the research.  But if you research men's clothing the
cuts are
very very straight.  Even using the triangle and rectangle, the cuts are
straight.  Since most women;s clothing is very similar to the man's
clothing
in the middle east I would assume that The construction methods are the
same.
I do tend to discount alot of what is purported to be curved cuts on
antique
garments of this period.  I've seen garments taht are quite old give the
appearance of having been cut on a curve, but upon actually examining the
fabric it was cut on the bias and as it was worn the stretch in the bias
gave
away to appear curved (and therfore fitting the body better).   Most
cultures
used and reused fabric it was extremely precious. My personal guess and
this
is from having worked with fabric and antique garments, it that the
garments
were cut on the angles (bias) so that they would drape and give the
ghwazee a
more fitted garment to display their "wares" . Only in conspicuous
consumption
do you get wasted fabric.  i.e. Royalty, grave clothes, preistly
vestments.etc.  Some of the garments Jennifer Scarce uses are from
"bundles"
(I can't quite recall the technical or arabic name at the moment).  When
someone dies their clothes are wrapped in a bundle and covered to be kept
by
the family.  This was mainly in the wealthier ones and of course
specifically
with the royalty.  It was mainly mens garments rarely are the women's
garments
kept.  The hems I have seen in slightly out of period engravings show the
dragging out of kilter hemlines you get if something is cut on a bias and
not
trimmed off after hanging awhile.  As to the stripes not looking period. 
Well
most garments I've seen from the middle east are an assault on the
sensiblities of our western minds.  Please resend me you mailing address
so I
can send you come copies of the Anachonist book along with some other
articles
you might find interesting

Samiha  

Mistress Catarina is one of the best Middle Eastern researcher I
havefound .Lisa Juarez <spamtwo at mediaone.net>

Yes, the Topkapi textile book is very useful for ME costume, as it has
documentation on Ottoman sumptuary law, fabrics, the weaving centers of
the ME
as well as photos of extant garb [not much of the garb is within period,
however, most of it is later, and very few of the garments are women's],
and a
section on embroidery; the manuscript one is good as well but obviously
is a
painter's interpretation of garb rather than the actual artifact. The
manuscript
covers pieces in the Topkapi collection, and therefore includes some
Persian as
well as Ottoman; the textile book is predominantly Ottoman. The books
originally
ran $150 each; they are now out of print--good luck finding them, but
well work
the money if that's your area of interest. I know that there are also
volumes on
Jewelry (the Treasury of  Topkapi) and Architecture.Cat
Catarina della Zimarra
Caid
A "Ghawazee" coat in SCA context generally refers to a garment available
in a
modern pattern for modern ethnic dancers called a "Ghawazee Coat" by a
pattern
manufacturing company. It is not "traditional," specific  to the
Ghawazee, or
actually accurate for SCA period. The cut of that pattern--made by the
Jehlor
Pattern Company in the 70's with a sweetheart neckline or neckline cut
under the
bust--is not a period cut I have ever seen in 10+ years of research; the
period
cut is usually a V neckline, round neckline, or mandarin-collar or in
some cases
turned-back facing collar. This is visible in numerous Persian and
Ottoman
manuscripts as well as in the Topkapi Textile book examples. Although the
garment may appear "full" in the skirt in the manuscript pictures, it is
not a
full circular skirt, as there is not waistline seam; to make a true
circular
skirt, it must be cut with gores on the bias and attached to a waistline
seam--this was never done. Most SCA coats are cut in four pieces, two
pieces to
the front and two in the back, curving in at the waist and flaring out at
the
hem (similar to a cotehardie); generally if the full width of the fabric
is
used, you will get a fairly full look to the "skirt". (I  say "skirt" in
quotes
because it is cut in one with the body; no separate waist seam). This is
accentuated with dancing or movement, as the "skirt" is often slit to the
hip,
so it tends to billow outward when the wearer moves.

In period, from extant garments in the Topkapi book, you can see that the
garment is usually cut with the front and back as one very long
rectangular
piece, with a center front slit cut to the neckhole. Triangular gores are
added
at the side, starting where the bottom of the belt would be (waist for
men, hips
for women). The side triangular gore may also have a rounded top, forming
an
inverted half-"U" shape where joins to the side of the front. Triangular
pieces
appear occasionally attached to the center front: they are ninety-degree
triangles with the hypotenuse projecting from the center front down
towards the
hem (the  ninety degree angle is attached at the center front seam
hemline.) All
of these triangular pieces would allow the garment to flare  when worn
either
with the shawl belt which men wore around their waists, or with the metal
or
fabric belt worn by the women about the hips. The fabric of the belt
draws in
the garment slightly, which helps contribute to the "full skirt" look.The
sleeve
is a tapering rectangular piece attached to the shoulder area of the
front-back
rectangle. Sleeve lenth and finishing vary.Center fronts are usually
closed with
buttons and loops, frogs, or a long braid-like frog and loop.

This cut is common to areas of the Middle East (it is similar to the
caftans as
well as modern Saudi [Khalegi] dresses), and appears in a number of
extant
garments in the Topkapi collection. A similar cut with rectagular side
pieces
can be dated in an Egyptian shirt from the 4th century AD (see Cut My
Cote).

All of the examples in Topkapi, as I remember, are cut with straight
hems, or at
most with a very, very slight curve at the outside edges--probably more
from
being worn with the belt and the fabric "hang." Sides seams are are
sometimes
slit from the hem partially up the length of the coat; in the earlier
Persian
manuscripts some are shown clearly slit all the way to the hip. The front
hem
and back hem are not always of the same length; sometimes the front hem
is
shorter.

Striped garb is documentable and appears in manuscript paintings. Topkapi
has a
garment from the very early 1600's of striped silk. The gore is cut with
a
straight side so that the stripe pattern is continuous across the fabric.
(On
patterned coats, too, the pattern is matched at the point where the gore
seam
attaches to the rectangular front/back of the body, so that the pattern
appears
unbroken across the front and back of the garment.) There is a 15th
century
Mamluk fragment of fabric with a widely-placed pattern-filled stripe
repeating
on a solid ground. As well as garments from the early 1300s Tabriz,
Persia are
represented in manuscripts with lengthwise stripes down the body of the
gament
and crosswise on sleeves in Douglas Barrett's Persian Painting of the
14th
Century.

Hope that helps.
Cat
Catarina della Zimarra
Caid
 Carolyn_Richardson at cch.com
One of my friends (nonLaurel) who is heavily into middle eastern clothing
also recommends the Topkapi Manuscripts book (another volume in the same
series) for clothing pictures.  I've seen the costumes/textiles volume (I
own the manuscript volume) and it's very good with lots of existing
garments.  The manuscripts book has lots of miniatures of people in garb,
and I think it may go back a little further than the textiles collection.

Frankly, the entire Topkapi series is a great resource for anyone
interested in Middle eastern stuff.  I think there are 4 or 5 volumes in
the series (I've seen 3 - own 1) but be warned they're pretty expensive. 
I
managed to get my copy of the Topkapi Manuscripts book for $60 (a lucky
find at Acres of Books in Long Beach) but I haven't seen it since then
for
less than $100.  Moe's Books in Berkeley had it as recently as the end of
August for that price.  I don't know if they had any of the other volumes
-
I was too busy drooling over the illuminated book section.

Mistress Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid

* were added to the words so they would spell the forbidden words and
confuse the computer.
 "Ward, Christie" <ward at quadralay.com>
Six months ago, H*ack*er Art Books, NYC had copies of the Topkari Saray
catalogues for
sale.  If you aren't on H*ack*er's mailing list, you should be.  Art
Books,
and only
Art Books since 1937.
H*ack*er Art Books
45 West 57th Street,
New York, NY  10019
212.688.7600
212.754.2554 - fax
www.h*ack*erartbooks.com
h*ack*erartbooks at infohouse.com - e-mail

WARNING: very dangerous to your fiscal peace of mind.

   MistressKatrei
Calontir

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