ES - Precedence

Mike C. Baker kihe at
Wed May 27 20:39:30 PDT 1998

> From: Axel , Jeanmaire & Diane Remes <remes at>
> To: Elfsea Mailing List <elfsea at Ansteorra.ORG>
> Subject: ES - Precedence
> Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 11:44 AM
>  My idea was not so much a list of who has what, which I imagine
> would be arduous to memorize, but something on the order of:
>     If the <coronet or medalion> looks like <this> then the person has
> <that> award, which bears <AOA / Grant of Arms / Patent of Arms > .  The
> title is <whatever> and the person is then addressed as <you name it>.
> Knowing who has what in the local area (Steppes/Elfsea) would be great,
> if it were on a written list that people could take home with them.

For anyone attempting to add the local RoP (Roll of Precedence)
a discussion with Ld. Borek -- currently Oakenwald Pursuivant as well as 
Regional -- would be a good place to start for Steppes information.  I
that between the efforts of Borek and Daniel de Lincolia before him they've

tracked down just about everything ever awarded from the days of the March
forward to the present...

> I did not even KNOW that a Patent of Arms came with my Laurel until I
> a Viscountess.  Would have been nice if someone had told me what it was
> about, and I had been in the SCA for over 10 years at that point.  OK, so
> I'm not so swift about some things.

Mistress, it is not unusual. Not in your "job description" one might say.
You held a peerage, and that was enough to define where the title 
stood in relation to other ranks, titles, and whatever.  What would have
been unusual, at least in my understanding, would have been a peerage
granted *without* a Patent of Arms... which does happen, or did, in the
SCA, but is considered a rare circumstance.
> As to the, what do you call someone with multiple titles, that one gets
> awkward, and various peers have different preferences.  I prefer to be
> called Mistress if I'm functioning as a Laurel (like when I was running
> Frugal Garb Comp. at Springfaire) and Your Excellency when I'm wearing my
> coronet.  I dont' usually expect my friends to use titles, except under
> formal conditions, like in court.  Like Eowyn, I tend NOT to introduce
> myself with my title(s) because I don't want to intimidate people, but
> they don't know what I am.  Is there some middle road between pompous &
> friendly?  It's hard to find.  Any suggestions?

Most Excellent Mistress Jeanmaire, and others who read these words,
the best suggestion is to call an individual by the names and titles 
by which they introduce themselves or by which they request to be 

For example, picking further upon the much-put-upon
Galen of Bristol, KSCA, OP, Viscount, I personally might
not always use even one of his titles due to personal 
acquaintance and familiarity.  However, when formally 
addressing said person before others, I try to choose
an appropriate form: 
upon the field, "Sir Galen" or "Your Excellency", or perhaps
even "Lord Marshall" if he is in charge of the particular
field where encountered

around the bard fires "that great entertainer, Galen of Bristol", 
or other variation which indicates our (relative) familiarity or 
near-common level of experience [one of these days,
Galen, one of these days...]

while in formal introductions (as used in procession or 
whatever) "His Excellency Sir Galen of Bristol, Master 
of the Pelican, currently Kingdom Bard of Ansteorra".

To address the original point leading to this thread of
     Duchess Willow, my apologies if perhaps I inadvertently
added to your distress in some way. I don't recall 
failing to use an honorific in addressing you by name
this last weekend -- but there have been times at
other events when I have done so after initial 
greetings have been exchanged. At times, this I believe
to have been your desire; at others, I may have
stepped beyond the bounds inadvertently.

Again, there has come into being the rough dichotomy
of not always knowing at what level the exchange 
between individuals of many years acquaintance 
should be in terms of, well, terms of formal address
to be used.  Unless it is obvious that Willow is not
present (but rather a certain Gypsy...), I _believe_
that I most often open any conversation with
"Your Grace". With respect, now and in the future,
please correct me (gently) when I err.


Turning the discussion a third time, I will note that it is
technically an affront to my persona to be addressed
as "Lord" Amra -- or it would be if he were an "orthodox"
and practicing Muslim.  However, it is my desire to make
it easy for others to address me when they need to --
and my persona is that of a non-European who has 
adapted to the Western world of the very late 1500s.

al-Sayyid Amr, or (nearly correct as well) al-Amra used
as a formal mode of address (hmm, think of the latter
as being known as "THE <name>", even if not the original),
just does NOT get the idea across until the listener has 
been educated to the alternative title's meaning. I use
the Arabic form in signatures as part of the educational
process, and gladly settle for the English when it is 
offered (thanks again, Sir Galen), and gleefully listen to 
such gems as the rhyme Master Robin composed for 
Cadi Mahdi....

The broader point to be observed here is that, when 
possible, it is best to use culturally-equivalent forms
of SCA titles whenever possible. UNLESS the person,
speaking for their persona, chooses to use the
European form, of course...

Now if I can help encourage the Irish personae to reclaim "Bantiarn" 
and "Bantiarna" (Irish Gaelic, cultural equivalents for "Lord" and 
"Lady", per the SCA College of Heralds official listing)...

al-Sayyid Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra
Moonschadeen, currently residing in the Barony of the Steppes

Mike C. Baker
SCA: Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra
"Other": Kihe Blackeagle (the Dreamsinger Bard)
My opinions are my own -- who else would want them?
e-mail: kihe at OR kihe at

Go to to perform mailing list tasks.

More information about the Elfsea mailing list