[Elfsea] Pennsic Story

Sat Aug 9 06:34:11 PDT 2003

It's a business, and it's owned by the Coopers.  Their rules are in place to
protect their interests, and we are expected to abide by them.  This is no
different situation than one of us shopping at Albertson's or gaining
permission to fight at Armand's warehouse -- in all three places, the owner
sets expectations and the customer is expected to follow the rules.  Pennsic
has one particular advantage over the other two: the rules are actually in
print and available.  They've been quoted on the white scarf list.

Why does the SCA continue to use this ranch for Pennsic?  Put things in
perspective...how much trouble did the Barony of Elfsea have just finding a
new park for a 20-30 person fighter practice?  How many sites can you think
of which can accomodate two weeks of thousands of people?  Remember, the
sanitation facilities must be adequate to prevent disease from breaking out
within that first week -- after you've tackled that problem you can move on
to cost of rental, sources of fresh water, travel logistics, etc.

So, you've estimated that the Coopers make over $100G each year from
Pennsic?  Good for them.  I'd advise everyone not to pass judgments based on
your guesses to their profit margin.  Two points to keep in mind: a) even if
they *profit* by hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's their business --
they're probably not in it to lose money.  b) sure, they're probably
grossing well over $100K.  I suspect the profit margin is fairly low,
however.  Maintenance, taxes, and development of land which can host a
12,000 person even isn't cheap.

I'm not pleased that Iolo's business has suffered.  I'll probably buy one of
his crossbows myself to help out.  However, there are multiple sides to
every story, and before anyone does anything rash (particularly before you
do anything rash in the name of your Barony) I'd suggest you get at least
one more side to the this incident.

Valentyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: elfsea-bounces at ansteorra.org
> [mailto:elfsea-bounces at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of giles nemeton
> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 1:31 AM
> To: Barony of Elfsea
> Subject: Re: [Elfsea] Pennsic Story
>
>
> I have often wondered what we pay the Coopers for the
> 'privilege' of using Coopers Lake campgrounds. I
> remember for Pennsic 14, I was told they got $10 a
> head at the gate plus their several little vending
> concerns----ice,washing machines, etc.(for 10,000
> peo-ple this would be $100,000+ for two weeks rent)
>
> I have never had a bad time at Pennsic, and I have
> never met the lady in question. Some time ago however
> I got the impression that the SCA was deeply indebted
> to the Coopers for letting us use their site.
>
> I have often wondered why it was only held there and
> not one of the many other campsites that are
> available.
>
> Cian
> one who would like to see 'the War of the King Who
> Declared War on Himself, and Then Lost' continue
>
> --- Sean Slattery <bogs at clubwielder.com> wrote:
> > What happened to Iolo seems to me to be
> > unnecessarily high handed on
> > Cindy Cooper's part.
> >
> > I also think that this situation is similar to the
> > Pillaged Village
> > "problem" that occurred last year. A customer came
> > after "closing
> > hours" to pick up something they had set aside
> > earlier in the day.
> > Their transaction was arranged well in advance of
> > the established
> > closing time, and the Pillaged Village people were
> > concluding in good
> > faith business already in progress; but when Cindy
> > Cooper caught wind
> > of them being "open for business", she banned them
> > from Pennsic this
> > year.
> >
> > Her actions appear to foreshadow a disturbing and
> > disappointing trend.
> > A few years ago, there would have been some
> > discussion and an
> > opportunity for remedial action in any situation
> > like this. If Cindy
> > Cooper has known about this "problem" for "years,"
> > she should have had
> > someone talk to Iolo long before throwing him off
> > the Pennsic site.
> > ...like "years" ago.
> >
> > As an aside, I have always understood fair warning
> > to be a part of any
> > due process...
> >
> > YIS,
> > Beowulf
> >
> > On Friday, Aug 8, 2003, at 17:29 US/Central, willow
> > Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > I wish sometimes people would warn people of
> > problems. I am sure the
> > > SCA
> > > officials knew he was doing it. I know none of us
> > want to be the bad
> > > guy
> > > but sometimes we need to bite the bullet and tell
> > people there is a
> > > problem. I know in Ansteorra,me and other nobles
> > have made a bad name
> > > for
> > > ourselves by interfering in similar situations,
> > but it better for us to
> > > be involved than the police or property owners
> > getting involved.
> > >
> > > Willow de Wisp
> > >
> > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:23:57 -0500
> > TWMarsh at TarrantCounty.com writes:
> > >> Don Aeron Harper sent me this Pennsic story:
> > >>
> > >> Master Iolo Fitzowen, the newest Lion of
> > Ansteorra, who has sold
> > >> crossbows
> > >> at the Pennsic war for 17 years, sets up a canvas
> > backstop so that
> > >> his
> > >> customers can test fire his bows with SCA-legal
> > boffer arrows. He
> > >> has done
> > >> this every year that he has been at that or any
> > other war. Every day
> > >> all day
> > >> boffer arrows hit the canvas and drop harmlessly
> > to the ground.
> > >>
> > >> This year, on Thursday, Cindy Cooper walked up
> > with a Marshal in tow
> > >> and
> > >> told him that what he was doing is against the
> > rules.
> > >>
> > >> Iolo replied "Oh. Well I've been doing it for 17
> > years."
> > >>
> > >> Cindy said "Yes, well I've suspected that you've
> > been doing it, but
> > >> I've
> > >> never actually caught you at it."
> > >>
> > >> Well it was pretty incredible that not only did
> > she happen to
> > >> "catch" him
> > >> doing it, this time, after somehow missing it for
> > 17 years, but she
> > >> already
> > >> had the paperwork filled out (with the marshal's
> > approval) to throw
> > >> Iolo off
> > >> the site.
> > >>
> > >> Iolo said "I had no idea this was a problem. We
> > can just stop doing
> > >> it, all
> > >> you had to do is ask."
> > >>
> > >> Cindy said "No, you're out of here. Clear out
> > tonight."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In case anyone doesn't know Iolo, making and
> > selling these crossbows
> > >> is how
> > >> he makes a living. He gets fully 1/4 of his
> > business at and because
> > >> of
> > >> Pennsic.
> > >>
> > >> So Iolo is driving the 24 hours home to Texas
> > right now, without
> > >> even so
> > >> much as a partial refund. He's bringing home
> > several finished
> > >> crossbows, if
> > >> any would like to buy one. If you were thinking
> > of ordering a
> > >> crossbow from
> > >> him soon-ish, now would be a good time.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Llywelyn
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> Elfsea at ansteorra.org
> > >> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/elfsea
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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