ANSTHRLD - royal device

Timothy A. McDaniel tmcd at
Sun Dec 13 23:42:10 PST 1998

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Darin K. Herndon wrote:
> >"Or, a tower sable between three roses proper"

> I find the following possible conflicts for the device blazoned
> above.  I have posted back to the list as well as to you in order to
> gather more comment if I miss something or if I call conflict where
> there is none.

It might be helpful for newer conflict-checkers to cite the RfS
clauses for each CD.  Looking at the list under X.4 may prove useful
to see if there was one you missed or one that you thought was there
but isn't.  There is no substitute for reading and knowing the
CD-counting rules (X.4) and the "X.2-simple armory" rule (X.2) before

> Alina Brianna of Rainbow Keep
>     Or, a tower with spire and pennon sable, surmounted by a natural
>     rainbow proper.
> (This appears to have one CD for the change of secondaries.)

No.  "Surmounted" means "overall", so there's one CD for
addition/deletion of charges overall (RfS X.4.c), one CD for
deletion/addition of charges directly on the field (X.4.b).

If the rainbow were on the field, 3 CDs: one CD for change of number
of charges on the field (X.4.f), one for change of type (X.4.e), and
one for change of tincture (X.4.d).

> Harold Breakstone
>     Or, a castle triple-towered sable, pennants flotant to sinister vert.
> (While Her Highnesses device is not X.2 simple armory, this is.

Her Highness's device *is* X.2-simple: "X.2.c.  Armory that has only a
primary group of identical charges, accompanied only by a secondary
group of identical charges, is simple armory."  One tower is a group
of identical charges (one of *anything* is, automatically); three
roses are identical in type.

For X.2 to apply, both pieces of armory have to be X.2-simple.
Both of these are.

> HRH device has only one CD from this but I believe it may be clear
> due to the "simple" nature of Harold Breakstone's.)

X.2 only applies if the types of primaries of the two arms are
substantially changed.  There's not even a difference here:
"architecture is architecture".  CD-counting is X.4; "X.2-simple" is
X.2; they have nothing to do with one another.

One CD; conflict.  (Drat.  Against the first Laurel King of Arms too!)

> Marco Valerio di Bartolomeo
>     Or, a castle sable between in pale two roses, all within a bordure
>     embattled gules.
> (HRH should be clear of this one.  There is a CD for change of
> number to the secondary and a second CD for HRH lack of a bordure.)


> Mirhaxa av Morktorn
>     Or, a tower sable with seven mullets in annulo vert.
>     "for House Morktorn"
> (The mullets on the tower are tertiaries.

Um, the blazon is ambiguous.  "With" is not a blazon term.  If the
mullets were on the tower, it'd be color-on-color, so I think they're
on the field.

> I believe that this is clear with one CD for HRH addition of the
> roses and another for her lack of the tertiary.  But I may be giving
> the tertiary too much importance.

There's no question that adding/deleting a group of tertiaries is a
CD.  X.4.b, addition/deletion of charges on the field; X.4.i,
"Addition of Charges on Charges - Adding or removing any group of
charges placed entirely on other charges is one clear difference.".

If, instead, the mullets are on the field: 3 CDs, for type, tincture,
and number of a charge group on the field.

[if we add a bordure to HH's]

> Bardolph Dragontower
>     Or, a tower sable, winged of dragon's wings displayed vert,
>     within a bordure sable.
> (There should be a CD for the dragon's wings and another for HRH addition
> of the secondary.)

Yes.  By precedent, adding wings to a charge that normally never has
wings is a CD.  HH's arms would have two secondary charge groups
(three roses; one bordure), so the addition/deletion of the rose group
would get the second needed CD.

Daniel de Lincolia
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