From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 2 05:50:58 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - My Recent Arms Submission (fwd) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/31/99 12:09:51 AM Central Daylight Time, Daniel de Lincolia writes about Mistress Gunnora Hallakarva's device: > Can we maybe sic the nice heraldic artist on this one? Ummm.... Daniel, just which of our scant supply of overworked, under-appreciated heraldic artists do you consider "the nice" one? Seriously, this good peer has cause for complaint. Reading through her file reveals a saga worthy of the best skald. Lacking poetry, I will try to fill in with practicality. Yes, the College of Heralds can help get this device redrawn and resubmitted with as little trouble as possible to this admirably persistant submitter. I'm going to address the details of the resubmission with the lady privately. Mistress Gunnora, please give me a couple of days to contact you with specifics; I need to make some phone calls and work up a complete offer and schedule. Either Star or I will address her general suggestions, several of which are under consideration or in the process of implementation. Watch this space for future developments! In service to the heralds and submitters of Ansteorra, Kathri, Asterisk Herald In-kingdom Submissions Processing ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 2 21:24:40 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:24:40 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: I need to know whether you find the following device clear of conflict: Per fess gules and azure, a catamount passant and a kestrel maintaining a garb Or Response by August 20 1999 would be appreciated. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 3 00:47:08 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: > Per fess gules and azure, a catamount passant and a kestrel maintaining a > garb Or As per the online Ordinary on 8/2/99, it's clear. - - Teceangl - -- What lies at the bottom of the ocean and twitches? A nervous wreck. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From whitemage at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 3 01:17:12 1999 From: whitemage at worldnet.att.net (James Hanke) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:17:12 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It check out alright. Didn't found one thing that would conflict with it within the O and A. Ld Morgan MacAlpin - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It check out alright.  Didn't found one thing that would conflict with it within the O and A.

Ld Morgan MacAlpin - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Tue Aug 3 11:01:59 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:01:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Graveships Message-ID: I'm creating an names index from a book of period church court records. Talan is helping me with some of the entries. Here's one of his replies that I found interesting. So, how to create a branch type? :-) - --Perronnelle Brian M. Scott wrote: > > The graveship of Thorne for concealment of these fines > > > What is "Thorne"? > > According to the OED, in Yorkshire a graveship was a district, either > a subdivision of a large parish or a collection of several small > parishes, so called because it was at some point administered by a > grave or collection of graves. A grave was an administrative > official elected by the inhabitants of a township. It would seem > that here must be the name of the graveship, i.e., > essentially a place-name. (Ekwall confirms that there is a Thorne in > the West Riding.) > > Talan ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 4 09:32:50 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:32:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC Content-Type: text/plain Greetings all, I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I proceed. Device : Azure, a pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent and sable. (I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this right. The idea is three stars white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue field with a white pale.) Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable. The badge seems to good to be true, but by all examinations I can make I'm clear. The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's different from the other registered mullets due to the rules regarding the number of points. I would appreciate help with this, as I intend to register them within the month and would hate to look dumb and have my own arms come back in conflict. Timothy of Glastonbury - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict Check

Greetings = all,

I would really = appreciate it if someone would check the following two items (a device = and a badge) for conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them = clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed.

Device : Azure, a = pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent = and sable.
(I am not 100% = positive I've blazoned this right.  The idea is three stars = white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue field = with a white pale.)

Badge : (Fieldless) = A mullet sable.

The badge seems to = good to be true, but by all examinations I can make I'm clear.  = The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's = different from the other registered mullets due to the rules regarding = the number of points.

I would appreciate = help with this, as I intend to register them within the month and would = hate to look dumb and have my own arms come back in = conflict.

Timothy of = Glastonbury


- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From superboy at lsh.org Wed Aug 4 10:22:00 1999 From: superboy at lsh.org (R. Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:22:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following = two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can = and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict = Check

I would really = appreciate it if=20 someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) = for=20 conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them clear of = conflict, but=20 I want to be certain before I proceed.

 

- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From superboy at lsh.org Wed Aug 4 10:30:26 1999 From: superboy at lsh.org (R. Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:30:26 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guh. Please accept my apologies and my SINCERE HATRED OF OUTLOOK EXPRESS at = times. As I was trying to say: I am not a wizard of conflict checks (yet, anyway), but they both look = clear. I love the badge; you just don't see enough of that kind of = thing (which is why there don't seem to be any conflicts, I guess). As for the blazon of the device, hmm. I envision what you want. I look = forward to a more expert book herald telling us the right way (or that = might well be it). While I'm in the neighborhood, I'm in the same position as good Timothy; = I intend to register the following. The first one is slightly controversial, = perhaps, and I'd enjoy (er, is that the word?) commentary as well. Device: Grilled gules and Or, on a bend argent a garden rose azure slipped and = leaved proper. Badge: (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. (You see why I liked Timothy's proposed badge, hee.) Notice my assumptions: (1) that grillage will fly, despite being totally = and utterly unused in the SCA as far as I can tell. It is in the picdic = as I recall. I could of course go fretty but I like grillage. :) (2) = that garden rose is a CD from the heraldic rose of Tudor fame. Thoughts? Sorry for hijacking my response to you, Timothy. :) Tighearnach mac Morgain Shire of Mooneschadowe -----Original Message----- From: Rayburn, Timothy To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:34 AM Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check =20 =20 Greetings all,=20 I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following = two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can = and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed. Device : Azure, a pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets = counterchanged argent and sable. (I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this right. The idea is three = stars white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue = field with a white pale.) Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable.=20 The badge seems to good to be true, but by all examinations I can = make I'm clear. The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, = and it's different from the other registered mullets due to the rules = regarding the number of points. I would appreciate help with this, as I intend to register them = within the month and would hate to look dumb and have my own arms come = back in conflict. Timothy of Glastonbury=20 =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict = Check
Guh.
 
Please accept my apologies and my SINCERE HATRED OF = OUTLOOK=20 EXPRESS at times.
 
As I was trying to say:
 
I am not a wizard of conflict checks (yet, anyway), = but they=20 both look clear.  I love the badge; you just don't see enough of = that kind=20 of thing (which is why there don't seem to be any conflicts, I=20 guess).
 
As for the blazon of the device, hmm.  I = envision what=20 you want.  I look forward to a more expert book herald telling us = the right=20 way (or that might well be it).
 
While I'm in the neighborhood, I'm in the same = position as=20 good Timothy; I intend
to register the following.  The first one is = slightly=20 controversial, perhaps, and I'd
enjoy (er, is that the word?) commentary as = well.
 
Device:
Grilled gules and Or, on a bend argent a garden rose = azure=20 slipped and leaved proper.
 
Badge:
(Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved = proper=20 bendwise.
 
(You see why I liked Timothy's proposed badge,=20 hee.)
 
Notice my assumptions: (1) that grillage will fly, = despite=20 being totally and utterly unused in the SCA as far as I can tell.  = It is in=20 the picdic as I recall.  I could of course go fretty but I like = grillage.=20 :) (2) that garden rose is a CD from the heraldic
rose of Tudor fame.
 
Thoughts?  Sorry for hijacking my response to = you,=20 Timothy. :)
 
Tighearnach mac Morgain
Shire of Mooneschadowe
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Rayburn, Timothy <TRayburn at insurdata.com>
= To:=20 'heralds at ansteorra.org'=20 <heralds at Ansteorra.ORG>
Date:=20 Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:34 AM
Subject: ANSTHRLD = - -=20 Personal Conflict Check

Greetings = all,

I would really = appreciate it if=20 someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) = for=20 conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them clear of = conflict, but=20 I want to be certain before I proceed.

Device : Azure, a = pale argent and=20 in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent and=20 sable.
(I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this = right. =20 The idea is three stars white-black-white in a raised chevron = formation=20 across a blue field with a white pale.)

Badge : (Fieldless) A = mullet=20 sable.

The badge seems to = good to be true,=20 but by all examinations I can make I'm clear.  The automatic CD = for=20 Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's different from the other=20 registered mullets due to the rules regarding the number of=20 points.

I would appreciate = help with this,=20 as I intend to register them within the month and would hate to look = dumb=20 and have my own arms come back in conflict.

Timothy of = Glastonbury =


- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 11:42:30 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:42:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: Please turn off MIME and HTML copies of your messages -- please just send plain text. > Grilled gules and Or Not a well-formed blazon fragment. Grillage is a charge on a field (like a fret / fretty), so it'd have to be "Gules grillage Or" or "Or grillage gules". It has been registered only once, for the arms of Forestgate. I see no reason why it would not be registerable > (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. Since garden roses aren't period, can I convince you to go with a normal heraldic rose? Alys of the Midnight Rose, "Or, a rose slipped and leaved azure". 1 CD for fieldless. Garden roses are treated in the SCA as artistic variants of heraldic roses. Slipping and leaving is not a CD, although it is blazonable. I don't know that "bendwise" would apply to the rose, and I couldn't tell if a garden rose were rotated anyway. Conflict. I'm not sure what Johnathan [sic!] Crusadene Whitewolf's rose looks like in "Sable, a rose azure imbrued gules". It has drops of blood somehow, but it's not clear to me that it's a semy of gouts (which would be a CD) or just a few drops dangling from petals (which probably wouldn't be). > Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable. There is a precedent calling conflict between a four-pointed mullet and a compass star (because the little points are, well, little) so this might conflict with the Ansteorran Chronicler's badge, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points distilling gouttes". Barn and Kat and the then-chronicler gave permission for this to be released, but I didn't follow up on it. It'd open up some heraldic space if it were done. I don't currently have my mullet-difference research to hand; I'll get back to y'all on point-counting. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 11:57:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:57:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: I found my notes on mullet differences. In brief, I think "multi-pointed" means "more points than usual". Mullet and estoile-like critters are not substantially different, so neither X.2 nor X.4.j.ii applies to such differences. Quick summary of common cases: A == standard mullets B == standard estoiles C == multi-pointed mullets like suns and compass stars A & B, B & C, and A & C each have CDs from each other. Step away from those patterns and the CD tends to shatter. Cs don't have CDs from each other. A summary table from the precedents below [here snipped]: Mullet of 3 points: illegal of 4 points versus caltrop: no CD (identical) compass star: no CD (long rays in same places) mullet of 5 points: no CD of 5 points versus estoile: CD sun: CD mullet of 6 points: no CD mullet of 7 points: no CD mullet of 8 points: CD compass star: CD spur rowels versus estoiles: CD (pierced mullets) multipointed versus sun: no CD of 8 points versus sun: no CD mullet of 5 gtr & 5 lsr: no CD (10 pointed mullet) estoile: CD estoile of 7 rays: no CD compass star versus sun: no CD ("multi-pointed mullet") versus estoile: CD Estoile of 5 rays versus estoile of 8 rays: no CD of 6 rays versus sun: CD of 8 rays versus sun: no CD multipointed versus sun: no CD Comet == estoile with a tail, hence a variant estoile Since there's no CD for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor Leonard, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a goutte.". 1 CD for fieldless, but since hers is tinctureless you can't get any other tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD. Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed) mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12) On the other hand, one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD between a compass star and a mullet of four points was that neither is period, so maybe it would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's badge. Daniel "catch a falling star" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 4 12:20:06 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12 Content-Type: text/plain Daniel, Perhaps I simply do not understand what is meant by "distilling a goutte". I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete removal of would net me another CD. Would you mind explaining this? Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: tmcd at jump.net [SMTP:tmcd at jump.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:57 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check > Since there's no CD for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor > Leonard, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a > goutte.". 1 CD for fieldless, but since hers is tinctureless you > can't get any other tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD. > > Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between > mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed) > mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12) > > On the other hand, one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD > between a compass star and a mullet of four points was that neither is > period, so maybe it would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's > badge. > > Daniel "catch a falling star" de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check

Daniel,

Perhaps I simply do = not understand what is meant by "distilling a goutte".  = I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete removal of = would net me another CD.  Would you mind explaining = this?

Timothy

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   tmcd at jump.net [SMTP:tmcd at jump.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:57 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict = Check =20
    Since there's no CD = for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor
    Leonard, = "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a
    goutte.".  1 CD for fieldless, but since hers = is tinctureless you
    can't get any other = tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD.

        = Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between
        = mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed)
        = mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12)

    On the other hand, = one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD
    between a compass = star and a mullet of four points was that neither is
    period, so maybe it = would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's
    badge.

    Daniel "catch a = falling star" de Lincolia
    --
             &nb= sp;          *** NEW = PERSONAL ADDRESS ***
    Tim McDaniel is = tmcd at jump.net; if that fail,
        = tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts.
        = tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away.
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 12:47:12 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:47:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: Timothy wrote, > Perhaps I simply do not understand what is meant by "distilling a > goutte". I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete > removal of would net me another CD. Would you mind explaining this? "Distilling a gout" is with a drop dangling from some projection or otherwise on the edge. It thus counts as a maintained charge and worth no CD. That is a rather long-standing precedent. For more philosophy: it may be objected that if such a charge be simply moved inward, it would become a tertiary and worth a difference, even though it change not at all in size, color, et cetera. Nevertheless, there is (I gather) period evidence that maintained charges were not, well, maintained: that arms for the same person might or might not be shown with the maintained charge -- but I presume that such has not been shewn for tertiaries. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 14:37:21 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:37:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: [His personal mail copied to the list with permission. My reply will be in the next message.] From: "R. Smith" [...] >> Grilled gules and Or > >Not a well-formed blazon fragment. Grillage is a charge on a field >(like a fret / fretty), so it'd have to be "Gules grillage Or" or "Or >grillage gules". Yes, I knew better but had my brain half-engaged. Thanks. Gules grillage Or is indeed what I meant. >It has been registered only once, for the arms of Forestgate. I see >no reason why it would not be registerable Good, good. >> (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. > >Since garden roses aren't period, can I convince you to go with a >normal heraldic rose? Yes; you just did. :) >Alys of the Midnight Rose, "Or, a rose slipped and leaved azure". 1 >CD for fieldless. Garden roses are treated in the SCA as artistic >variants of heraldic roses. Slipping and leaving is not a CD, >although it is blazonable. I don't know that "bendwise" would apply >to the rose, and I couldn't tell if a garden rose were rotated >anyway. Conflict. > >I'm not sure what Johnathan [sic!] Crusadene Whitewolf's rose looks >like in "Sable, a rose azure imbrued gules". It has drops of blood >somehow, but it's not clear to me that it's a semy of gouts (which >would be a CD) or just a few drops dangling from petals (which >probably wouldn't be). My reworked ideas, and if you would take a moment to comment on them I would be extremely grateful (actually, I'm already quite grateful for your help): Device: Gules grillage Or, on a bend argent three roses purpure. Badge: (Fieldless) In bend three roses purpure. My lady quite insightfully asked how the heck you tell that they are in bend with no point of reference. My goal here is simply to get the suckers in a line, whereas "(Fieldless) Three roses purpure" would get me two and one, if I recall correctly. Any help for the hapless? Thanks already, Tighearnach mac Morgain Shire of Mooneschadowe ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 14:43:17 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:43:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: "R. Smith" wrote: ... > Device: > > Gules grillage Or, on a bend argent three roses purpure. I don't know that grillage was used in period. Fretty certainly was, even from an early date. Purpure was quite rare, only a little common in Iberia -- 8%, I think? Both of them are registerable, though. The primary charge is the grill. The bend overall is an overall charge. > Badge: > > (Fieldless) In bend three roses purpure. Insta-boing, I'm afraid. Fieldless badges cannot have disconnected charges. (A pawprint and an ermine spot count as connected, by the way.) If you redesign to have an overall charge on a fieldless badge, please be aware that it is allowed to be done only if the area of intersection is small, like a spear and a sword. Since overall charges on badges were very rare at best in period, I advise against it if possible. > My lady quite insightfully asked how the heck you tell that they are > in bend with no point of reference. You have as much of a frame of reference as any other piece of armory. If you were to display "Gules, a fess Or" on a roundel, lozenge, delf, or some such, you'd have the same problems, or lack of them. I bear "A mascle gules" as a badge; whatever I put it on defines top-and-down to distinguish it from "A delf voided gules". Daniel <> de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 5 18:14:46 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:14:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: (Sorry for the duplication, Tangwystyl, AElfwyn, et al.) Yes, it's stunt documentation (or stunt shootdown, I suspect). Yes, I would love a quick turnaround; if, as I suspect, the name is utterly unusable, I'd like to stop the write-in campaign ASAP. Indeed, I'm sorry for asking under such conditions. This came across the Ansteorran Southern Regional list just now. The vote he's referring to is a preference ballot for a southern regional name, probably to thereby become the frontrunner for a southern principality name if-and-when. "James Crouchet" wrote, on southern at Ansteorra.ORG at Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0500, with subject Late Entry: > Hello. Don Doré here. > > A small group of Southerners, including me, were recently standing > around complaining that the suggested names for this region were > bad, twinky, un-period, and generally unacceptable. (Un-period?!? Grrrr! Arrrg! We cut it off at the 3-out-of-5-star periodness-rating level. One name is a period town in Italy!) > name that really seemed to work. It followed a period naming > practice, (which of course he didn't describe) > it avoided the compound noun twink (like "Lion's Liver"), actually > means something to the Southern Region AND connects us to Ansteorra. > It would even serve well as a name for a principality or kingdom, > should that ever be an issue. Noble heraldry would be easy to > design for this name. What's more, it is short, plain English and > easily pronounceable. ... > In particular, we got Baroness Mari's ok (which is important, > considering the name). > > What is the name? Lioness. Bjornsborg's "Lioness" tourney is past, That annual tourney is usually spelled "Lyonesse". It is a high-persona event. In it, Lyonesse is said to rise from the sea for a few days. The Baroness of Bjornsborg (in the center of the southern region) is called Lady Lyonesse for the duration and is the hostess. There is fighting at the barrier, I believe. I understand that there are plenty of examples of period people in tourneys pretending to be knights of the Round Table and other worthies (or Worthies), so this sounds like a fine period tourney notion to me. It is pronounced here as "LEE ahn ess" or "LEE ah ness" -- hard for me to tell. I assume they want the English word "Lioness". So: I gather that Lyonesse is a mythical sunken island somewhere off Britain, so an attempted registration of Lyonesse would therefore bounce by Admin Handbook III.A.6, Names of Significant Geographical Locations from Literary Sources. Is it at all likely that period people would have named a real place Lyonesse, Atlantis, or such? (Any other examples come to mind of lands believed lost by period people?) If "Lioness", I have the usual stunt request: can anyone think of a language + culture + time where that might be a place-name? Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 5 21:30:08 1999 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:30:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: Apologies, I haven't been keeping up, but what happened to "Levgorod" for the southern region, which I thought sounded rather cool (and like a place, not a species)? - --Alisandre, who's been off having babies and not paying much attention Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > (Sorry for the duplication, Tangwystyl, AElfwyn, et al.) > > Yes, it's stunt documentation (or stunt shootdown, I suspect). > Yes, I would love a quick turnaround; if, as I suspect, the name is > utterly unusable, I'd like to stop the write-in campaign ASAP. > Indeed, I'm sorry for asking under such conditions. > > This came across the Ansteorran Southern Regional list just now. The > vote he's referring to is a preference ballot for a southern regional > name, probably to thereby become the frontrunner for a southern > principality name if-and-when. > > "James Crouchet" wrote, on southern at Ansteorra.ORG at Thu, > 5 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0500, with subject Late Entry: > > Hello. Don Doré here. > > > > A small group of Southerners, including me, were recently standing > > around complaining that the suggested names for this region were > > bad, twinky, un-period, and generally unacceptable. > > (Un-period?!? Grrrr! Arrrg! We cut it off at the 3-out-of-5-star > periodness-rating level. One name is a period town in Italy!) > > > name that really seemed to work. It followed a period naming > > practice, > > (which of course he didn't describe) > > > it avoided the compound noun twink (like "Lion's Liver"), actually > > means something to the Southern Region AND connects us to Ansteorra. > > It would even serve well as a name for a principality or kingdom, > > should that ever be an issue. Noble heraldry would be easy to > > design for this name. What's more, it is short, plain English and > > easily pronounceable. > ... > > In particular, we got Baroness Mari's ok (which is important, > > considering the name). > > > > What is the name? Lioness. Bjornsborg's "Lioness" tourney is past, > > That annual tourney is usually spelled "Lyonesse". It is a > high-persona event. In it, Lyonesse is said to rise from the sea for > a few days. The Baroness of Bjornsborg (in the center of the southern > region) is called Lady Lyonesse for the duration and is the hostess. > There is fighting at the barrier, I believe. I understand that there > are plenty of examples of period people in tourneys pretending to be > knights of the Round Table and other worthies (or Worthies), so this > sounds like a fine period tourney notion to me. It is pronounced here > as "LEE ahn ess" or "LEE ah ness" -- hard for me to tell. I assume > they want the English word "Lioness". > > So: I gather that Lyonesse is a mythical sunken island somewhere off > Britain, so an attempted registration of Lyonesse would therefore > bounce by Admin Handbook III.A.6, Names of Significant Geographical > Locations from Literary Sources. Is it at all likely that period > people would have named a real place Lyonesse, Atlantis, or such? > (Any other examples come to mind of lands believed lost by period > people?) > > If "Lioness", I have the usual stunt request: can anyone think of a > language + culture + time where that might be a place-name? > > Daniel de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 5 22:22:42 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: Alisandre wrote: << Apologies, I haven't been keeping up, but what happened to "Levgorod" for the southern region, which I thought sounded rather cool (and like a place, not a species)? >> I don't have a ballot to hand, but Levgorod was ranked as three stars on the registerability scale, so it should be on the ballot. As for species and lion parts: the only such choices were L{o:}wenfeld, L{o:}wenhaven, and L{o:}wenland in German, Levgorod, and Campoleone. None of those have body parts. > Alisandre, who's been off having babies Please get your priorities straight: SCA first. You should have done like a software company -- delay the ship date. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 12 20:03:35 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Seeking permission from Isobel Margaret de Forbeys Message-ID: Greetings unto the assembled heralds of the fair kingdom of Ansteorra. A friend of mine and fellow herald wishes to locate Isobel Margaret de Forbeys to request permission to conflict with her device. She is of your lands, would any know how to get ahold of her? I would be most appreciative if anyone who can help would email me, please. In service to heraldry throughout the Knowne World, - - Lady Teceangl Bach An Tir tierna at agora.rdrop.com - -- What lies at the bottom of the ocean and twitches? A nervous wreck. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Thu Aug 12 23:34:16 1999 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:34:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: Greetings. The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It discusses an organizational change of the college and extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September 27. In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do so. Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. Tired but happy they are mailed, Etienne Obelisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Fri Aug 13 04:37:34 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 99 06:37:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: Thanks for all your hard work! You do a great job every month and it is appricated. The Gazette always looks wonderful. - -Meredudd At 01:34 AM 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings. > >The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The >ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. > >Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It >discusses an organizational change of the college and heed!> extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September 27. > >In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette >online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work >allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do so. > >Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found >three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so >critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you >wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. > >Tired but happy they are mailed, >Etienne >Obelisk > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Fri Aug 13 12:20:13 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:20:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0 Content-Type: text/plain While I normally try not to "waste bandwith" with statements like this, I will this time. The entire staff of the College of Heralds works very hard to keep things moving smoothly to almost no applaud. To everyone who puts countless hours into the Gazette, the ELOI or any of the other publications/paperwork that keep this all going, Vivat! Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net] > Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 6:38 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Gazette > > Thanks for all your hard work! You do a great job every month and it is > appricated. The Gazette always looks wonderful. > > -Meredudd > > At 01:34 AM 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Greetings. > > > >The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The > >ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. > > > >Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It > >discusses an organizational change of the college and >heed!> extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September > 27. > > > >In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the > Gazette > >online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work > >allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do > so. > > > >Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found > >three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so > >critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you > >wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. > > > >Tired but happy they are mailed, > >Etienne > >Obelisk > > > > > >========================================================================= > === > >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Gazette

While I normally try = not to "waste bandwith" with statements like this, I will = this time.

The entire staff of = the College of Heralds works very hard to keep things moving smoothly = to almost no applaud.  To everyone who puts countless hours into = the Gazette, the ELOI or any of the other publications/paperwork that = keep this all going, Vivat!

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Friday, August 13, 1999 6:38 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Gazette

    Thanks for all your = hard work!  You do a great job every month and it is
    appricated.  = The Gazette always looks wonderful.

    -Meredudd

    At 01:34 AM = 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote:
    >Greetings.
    >
    >The August = Gazette mailed tonight.  This is much later than usual.  = The
    >ILoI is also = much bigger than usual, 8 pages.
    >
    >Please read the = letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives.  It
    >discusses an = organizational change of the college and <commenters pay
    >heed!> = extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September = 27.
    >
    >In the past, = for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette
    >online so that = people can begin commenting earlier.  If time at work
    >allows, I will = do this for this weekend.  I will announce, here, if I do = so.
    >
    >Also, since I = have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found
    >three flaws in = the roster published this month.  Because the roster is so
    >critical, I = will publish another with corrections in September.  If you
    >wish to add = last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20.
    >
    >Tired but happy = they are mailed,
    >Etienne
    >Obelisk
    >
    >
    >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >Go to = http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.
    >
    >

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to = http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Aug 15 13:57:01 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:57:01 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Seeking permission from Isobel Margaret de Forbeys Message-ID: In a message dated 8/12/99 10:04:12 PM Central Daylight Time, tierna at agora.rdrop.com writes: > She is of your lands, > would any know how to get ahold of her? I have her file in front of me and will answer privately. Kathri, Asterisk Herald and Keeper of the Kingdom Files (who is so pleased when one is really where it's supposed to be!) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Tue Aug 17 22:48:37 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:48:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: I was reflecting on my summer of repeated attacks of real life, and realized that I really should be prepared in case something were to happen and someone needed to come in and take over. Although I have a drop-dead deputy (Hi, Alisandre), she managed to have a real life attack concurrent to my own. So, in a fit of...well, you figure it out, and tell me...something, I drafted the following, which I am going to put on an envelope taped to the boxes, with the legend OPEN IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. Did I leave anything out? AElfwyn ************************************ Since you are reading this, I am heraldically dead. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take over as acting baronial herald. Some things you should know: 1) Send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name and address of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. Look for the binder with the most recent editions of the Ansteorran Gazette; they all have dates on the spine. 2) While you've got the Ansteorran Gazette out (AG for short), look at the list of names on the back. This will tell you all the essential info for sending stuff in; who to send it to, how many copies, how much $$ to send, etc. The only missing info is how to make out the check (and it must be from the baronial account, get checks from the reeve): Kingdom of Ansteorra--SCA, Inc. 3) All of the forms are found in the small, black, beat-up filing box that is missing the handle on top. (Hey, that's how it looked when I got it.) All of the instructions for filling out the forms are on the back. All the current files with things to be submitted, appealed, etc. are in that same small file. 4) All of the rest of the things you need to know are contained in the books and binders (wait, some of them are mine...guess you can't take it with you) that fill the remaining five bins. Commit them to memory. (Wait! that was humor!) 5) If you have email access, subscribe to SCAHRLDS and ANSTHRLDS as soon as possible. Instructions are on the web at The folks on these lists are great and will give you help whenever you ask. Their collective years of experience probably are in the 1000 year range. God have mercy on your soul (and mine, while we're at it!). AElfwyn aet Gyrwum ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Aug 18 06:40:59 1999 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:40:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: AElfwyn, That should just about scare them off :-) No, that looks very good. The one thing I would ask is that step "0" should be contact the regional herald and not wait for to send a monthly report. We really do like to know as soon as changes happen. - --Francois - -----Original Message----- From: Jodi McMaster [mailto:jmcmaste at accd.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:49 AM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency I was reflecting on my summer of repeated attacks of real life, and realized that I really should be prepared in case something were to happen and someone needed to come in and take over. Although I have a drop-dead deputy (Hi, Alisandre), she managed to have a real life attack concurrent to my own. So, in a fit of...well, you figure it out, and tell me...something, I drafted the following, which I am going to put on an envelope taped to the boxes, with the legend OPEN IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. Did I leave anything out? AElfwyn ************************************ Since you are reading this, I am heraldically dead. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take over as acting baronial herald. Some things you should know: 1) Send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name and address of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. Look for the binder with the most recent editions of the Ansteorran Gazette; they all have dates on the spine. 2) While you've got the Ansteorran Gazette out (AG for short), look at the list of names on the back. This will tell you all the essential info for sending stuff in; who to send it to, how many copies, how much $$ to send, etc. The only missing info is how to make out the check (and it must be from the baronial account, get checks from the reeve): Kingdom of Ansteorra--SCA, Inc. 3) All of the forms are found in the small, black, beat-up filing box that is missing the handle on top. (Hey, that's how it looked when I got it.) All of the instructions for filling out the forms are on the back. All the current files with things to be submitted, appealed, etc. are in that same small file. 4) All of the rest of the things you need to know are contained in the books and binders (wait, some of them are mine...guess you can't take it with you) that fill the remaining five bins. Commit them to memory. (Wait! that was humor!) 5) If you have email access, subscribe to SCAHRLDS and ANSTHRLDS as soon as possible. Instructions are on the web at The folks on these lists are great and will give you help whenever you ask. Their collective years of experience probably are in the 1000 year range. God have mercy on your soul (and mine, while we're at it!). AElfwyn aet Gyrwum ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 07:12:59 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:12:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: Bordelon, Wendel wrote: > >The > one thing I would ask is that step "0" should be contact the regional herald > and not wait for to send a monthly report. Okay. I rewrote the paragraph as follows: Some things you should know: 1) You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. Call this officer ASAP and then write a catch-up report to mail as follow-up. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name, address, and phone number of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 08:29:02 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:29:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: AElfwyn planned for death by writing: > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. No, not necessarily (suppose you collapse on the 9th?), and that's not the point. The regional wants to know about any change ASAP, with as much warning as possible, regardless of report schedules. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 10:31:48 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:31:48 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > > AElfwyn planned for death by writing: > > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. > > No, not necessarily (suppose you collapse on the 9th?) *snicker* Yeah, someone's gonna notice by then. , and that's not > the point. The regional wants to know about any change ASAP, with as > much warning as possible, regardless of report schedules. > Oh, I understood that--guess I didn't get that across--I was just trying (okay, just trying) to do so in a humorous vein. Aelfuyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 10:59:09 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:59:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of submissions Message-ID: Can somebody review with me how to figure out where a particular submission is once it has been sent to Kingdom? Thanks, AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Wed Aug 18 12:18:57 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:18:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of submissions Message-ID: Jodi McMaster wrote: > Can somebody review with me how to figure out where a particular > submission is once it has been sent to Kingdom? > > Thanks, > AElfwyn If it's been in the AG, I can look it up on the list I maintain. If it hasn't been in the AG yet, you can contact Asterisk to verify that she has received it. You can also post it to the list; there are a few people here that keep track of submissions. - --Perronnelle - -- Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 12:52:50 1999 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:52:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 13:28:29 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:28:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C Content-Type: text/plain Ah, Darius, thank you for posting this here, it reminded me that you asked me for that input. In my opinion a branch herald should be able to, without a book in front of him, associate real world colors (blue, green, gold, white) with tincture names for a device, including basic furs. They should be able to draw a bend, a bend sinister, a chief, a bordure, a base, a fess and a pale. They should be able to know what the Ordinary and Armorial are and what they are used for. They should be able to give a basic flow of court. They should understand the different award levels (related to above). They should be able to identify, on sight, any Kingdom award. Given an OP they should be able to tell which awards a person has (with the possible exception of Baronial Service Orders which I still have to look up). And they should be able to name at least 2 other heralds in their region who they could inquire to if they had a question. Some might say this is a little bit rough for branch heralds (I openly admit I was wracking my brains for what appeared on the PE test when I took it), but if we are going to put in Heralds mostly at the Baronial+ levels now then they should be fairly qualified individuals. And there is absolutely nothing here that I couldn't take a brand new person to the Society and teach them in an afternoon. They may not have it commited to memory right away (depends on the individual) but they could be presented with the information and given handouts to be 'ready' by these qualifications within just a short time if they were interested. Timothy of Glastonbury "Var??? Vair??? Viar?? Vair! Yeah, that's it." Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:53 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > In service > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ah, Darius, thank = you for posting this here, it reminded me that you asked me for that = input.

In my opinion a = branch herald should be able to, without a book in front of him, = associate real world colors (blue, green, gold, white) with tincture = names for a device, including basic furs.

They should be able = to draw a bend, a bend sinister, a chief, a bordure, a base, a fess and = a pale.

They should be able = to know what the Ordinary and Armorial are and what they are used = for.

They should be able = to give a basic flow of court.

They should = understand the different award levels (related to above).

They should be able = to identify, on sight, any Kingdom award.

Given an OP they = should be able to tell which awards a person has (with the possible = exception of Baronial Service Orders which I still have to look = up).

And they should be = able to name at least 2 other heralds in their region who they could = inquire to if they had a question.

Some might say this = is a little bit rough for branch heralds (I openly admit I was wracking = my brains for what appeared on the PE test when I took it), but if we = are going to put in Heralds mostly at the Baronial+ levels now then = they should be fairly qualified individuals.  And there is = absolutely nothing here that I couldn't take a brand new person to the = Society and teach them in an afternoon.  They may not have it = commited to memory right away (depends on the individual) but they = could be presented with the information and given handouts to be = 'ready' by these qualifications within just a short time if they were = interested.

Timothy of = Glastonbury
"Var??? = Vair??? Viar?? Vair! Yeah, that's it."
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Darius and Monica = [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:53 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this = forum:

    "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

    In service
    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://= lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 13:10:59 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:10:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Darius and Monica wrote: > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > 1) How to get help: people and written sources; 2) How the CoH is structured; 3) How to extract necessary info from the AG; 4) How to start the submissions process; 5) How to organize baronial files--what do you need to keep, etc.; 6) How to prepare the forms 7) Basic name documentation and basic heraldry. Me, have opinions? Nah. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From marsha.greene at mpan.com Wed Aug 18 13:36:17 1999 From: marsha.greene at mpan.com (marsha.greene@mpan.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:17 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities that happen during the branch events: * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament events. * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their branch. Hillary Greenslade lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure =========================================================================== = Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Wed Aug 18 13:36:06 1999 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Darius wrote: >"What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" The short answer is......what it takes to perform the duties of their office. By taking this point of view, you first determine what is required of them, then make a list of the knowledge that is needed to perform those duties. Now as to what duties are required for branch heralds...well that can vary from kingdom to kingdom. For one point of view, I invite you to look at the article I have written, entitled: DUTIES OF A LOCAL HERALD. It is located at: http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Duties.htm Hope this helps somewhat. In Service to Crown, Kingdom and Society, Modar Neznanich 8th Baron of Forgotten Sea Saker Herald Emeritus Kingdom of Calontir =-=-=-=-=-= Some interesting SCA websites: Heraldry http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Heraldry.htm Heraldic Myths (Info to clear up misconceptions about SCA heraldry) http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Myths.htm Persona Research http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Persona1.htm Timeline http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Timeline.htm Medieval Games http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Games.htm Clothing/Garb http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Briana3.htm Medieval Cooking http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Jadwiga2.htm Thrown Weapons http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Thrown.htm Medieval Weapons http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Weapons.htm Medieval Armour http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Armour.htm Mongol History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Mongol.htm Knights Templar http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Sidon.htm Archery http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Welsh.htm Russian History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Russian.htm Tudor History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Tudor.htm Scottish History (Clan Menzies) http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Scots.htm Leathercraft http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Leather.htm Italian Renaissance History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Italian.htm Medieval Fishing http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Fishing.htm Medieval Furniture http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Furniture.htm Woodworking http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Woodwork.htm Embroidery http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Embroid.htm Joan of Arc http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/JoA.htm Spices http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Spices.htm Medieval Vampire Lore http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Vampires.htm ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 14:05:51 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: The branch warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no? If so, I'd probably argue that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be hoped for, may not be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic training program in each barony to prepare folks to take over. In our barony, we've had lots of times where folks have had to simply take over and exigent circumstances existed where they could not get with someone in person to make sure they could demonstrate that they could do things with a book closed or do field heraldry. OJT occurred after the warranting--I'm an example of that process. Further, most of us are more inclined to one area of heraldry over another anyway. As a result, I strongly advocate emphasis on knowing how to get help, how to find out how to do things, how to use the forms, how to get organized, etc. over already having mastered certain aspects, and I think the old way of open book testing was a good way of demonstrating that. Otherwise the learning curve can be too long to fill posts and submissions and other bits can be left in the vacuum. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 14:17:27 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:17:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE Content-Type: text/plain Hmm.... This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two exams? There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities > that > happen during the branch events: > * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament > events. > * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their > branch. > Hillary Greenslade > > > > > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > In service > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > = > = > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Hmm....

This just came to = me.  Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or = have) the PE exam as well.  So I ask the 50 billion dollar = question : Why have two exams?

There may be wisdom = in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on = it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

Timothy

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   marsha.greene at mpan.com = [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good ideas.   I might add some activities = that
    happen during the = branch events:
    *   Be = able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament
    events.
    *   Be = able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at = their
    branch.
    Hillary = Greenslade




    lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we need to know?




    As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this = forum:

    "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

    In service
    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    =3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.






    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 14:21:04 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:21:04 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C Content-Type: text/plain > -----Original Message----- > From: Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:06 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > The branch warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no? If so, > I'd probably argue that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be > hoped for, may not be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic > training program in each barony to prepare folks to take over. > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. Second to that should be seeing to it that your duties in the position are done. Yes, I mean that, because if you at least train your replacement well then when you're booted by your regional for not filing reports there's a good choice to replace you. > AElfwyn > Timothy of Glastonbury - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:06 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    The branch = warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no?  If = so,
    I'd probably argue = that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be
    hoped for, may not = be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic
    training program in = each barony to prepare folks to take over. 

    [Tim = Rayburn]  Training someone to be your replacement should be the = primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children.  = Second to that should be seeing to it that your duties in the position = are done.  Yes, I mean that, because if you at least train your = replacement well then when you're booted by your regional for not = filing reports there's a good choice to replace you.

    AElfwyn

    Timothy of = Glastonbury

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From the_one_true_roy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 14:43:21 1999 From: the_one_true_roy at yahoo.com (Roy Heath) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > The branch pursuivant needs to know, at a bare minimum, how to deal with the administrative requirements of the office, and how to organize heraldic activities for the local group. It's nice if the local officer actually has an interest in the science of heraldry, but not necessary. If they can fill out the paperwork, stay on top of the reporting, and ensure that heraldic activities are being handled properly in their group; then we should thank our lucky stars. Let's examine the local job a little more closely: What do the local groups need? Most of the populace simply needs someone who can help them prepare their submission forms and send them to kingdom correctly. Most groups don't have a good heraldic library, so it isn't fair to expect them to do a lot of consultation. Just make sure that the money goes to the local treasurer and the checkf for the submissions goes to kingdom with the right number of forms and photocopies. For events, there is a need for heralds to make announcements and to organize court if it is to be held; but there is no requirement that these jobs be done by the local. I and many other heralds enjoy doing court, but some folks don't. As long as the local makes certain that it is organized, it doesn't matter who does it. Arguments can certainly be raised that there are other valid duties for the local office, but these are the only ones without which our stated requrements are not met. Sincerely, Erc _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 14:39:24 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:39:24 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: AHHHH! Now to another matter at hand. First: The format of the rewriten class will not be lecture then have a test. It will be a teaching session/workshop where in the instructor will go over the information and work with those taking the class to fillout a worksheet, which will remain with the person as sort of a crib note. so when they are acting as a branch officer, should the occaision arise that they need the information, they will be able to look back to that worksheet and either have the info on hand or know who to call. This class will not only be for Baronial officers. though branches below baronial level will soon no longer be required to have a herald, I feel that many will chose to maintain the position on their roster. So the class will also be for warrenting those officers as well. Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions right now. NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a little different. Darius >Hmm.... > >This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work >(or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : >Why have two exams? > >There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different >levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch >herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) > >Timothy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities > > that > > happen during the branch events: > > * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament > > events. > > * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their > > branch. > > Hillary Greenslade > > > > > > > > > > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > > > > > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > > question to this forum: > > > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > > > In service > > Darius, Ld Tressure > > > > >========================================================================== > > = > > = > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list >tasks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >========================================================================== > > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list >tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Wed Aug 18 14:50:14 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:50:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?Not a bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic warrant would require. But we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of information very well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure that the basic information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the warrant applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant applicant does not have to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two tests again. Caelin -----Original Message----- From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn, Timothy Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG' Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Hmm.... This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two exams? There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) Timothy -----Original Message----- From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities that happen during the branch events: * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament events. * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their branch. Hillary Greenslade lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure =========================================================================== = Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?
Not a=20 bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic = warrant=20
would=20 require. But we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of=20 information
very=20 well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure = that the=20
basic=20 information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the = warrant=20
applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must = know, but=20 the warrant applicant does not
have=20 to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two = tests=20 again.
 
Caelin
-----Original Message-----
From: = owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG=20 [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn,=20 Timothy
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 = PM
To:=20 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG'
Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we = need to=20 know?

Hmm....

This just came to = me.  Darius I=20 know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as=20 well.  So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two=20 exams?

There may be wisdom in = creating just=20 one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on = if the=20 person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

Timothy

    -----Original Message----- =
    From:   marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] =
    Sent:   = Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:        = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? =

    Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good=20 ideas.   I might add some activities that
    happen during the branch = events:=20
    *   Be = able to organize=20 and run field heraldry for branch tournament
    events.
    *   Be able to organize and be the court herald = for courts=20 held at their
    branch.
    Hillary=20 Greenslade




    lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we=20 need to know?




    As we begin to = rewrite the branch=20 warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this forum:

    "What does a branch = herald _need_=20 to know?"

    In service =
    Darius, Ld Tressure =

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
    =3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing=20 list tasks.






    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=20
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing=20 list tasks.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 15:12:07 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:12:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While seperating the exam into a required area and an extended area = does basiclly create two exams again, there is something else that is done = with this : It gives the new herald a look at what would be expected to = become an PaL (Pursuivant at Large). This might encourage them to come back and = try again once they learned some more. I know that for instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a juggernaut of a beast that people studied for years to master. When I finally did get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, relatively speaking, simple the exam was. Hardly something you'd study = for years at. Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this could = encourage people. But I could be wrong, Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Threlkeld [SMTP:rjt2 at airmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:50 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >=20 > Not a bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more = than a > basic warrant=20 > would require. But we would expect either of them to know certain = pieces > of information=20 > very well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not > ensure that the=20 > basic information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas = which > the warrant=20 > applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant > applicant does not=20 > have to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically = have > two tests again. > =A0 > Caelin >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn, Timothy > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM > To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG' > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > =09 > =09 >=20 > Hmm....=20 >=20 > This just came to me.=A0 Darius I know you have plans in the works = to > re-work (or have) the PE exam as well.=A0 So I ask the 50 billion = dollar > question : Why have two exams? >=20 > There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring > different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying = to be > a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) >=20 > Timothy=20 >=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From:=A0=A0 marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]=20 > Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM=20 > To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 heralds at Ansteorra.ORG=20 > Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?=20 >=20 > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas.=A0=A0 I might add some > activities that=20 > happen during the branch events:=20 > *=A0=A0 Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch = tournament >=20 > events.=20 > *=A0=A0 Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held = at > their=20 > branch.=20 > Hillary Greenslade=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a=20 > question to this forum:=20 >=20 > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?"=20 >=20 > In service=20 > Darius, Ld Tressure=20 >=20 > =09 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =3D=20 > =3D=20 > Go to to perform mailing > list tasks.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =09 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =3D=3D=20 > Go to to perform mailing > list tasks.=20 >=20 - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

While seperating the = exam into a required area and an extended area does basiclly create two = exams again, there is something else that is done with this : It gives = the new herald a look at what would be expected to become an PaL = (Pursuivant at Large).  This might encourage them to come back and = try again once they learned some more.

I know that for = instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a juggernaut of a = beast that people studied for years to master.  When I finally did = get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, relatively = speaking, simple the exam was.  Hardly something you'd study for = years at.  Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this could = encourage people.

But I could be = wrong,

Timothy of = Glastonbury


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Richard Threlkeld = [SMTP:rjt2 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:50 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Not a bad idea. It = is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic = warrant=20
    would require. But = we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of = information=20
    very well. So a 75% = score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure that the =
    basic information = was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the = warrant=20
    applicant *must* = know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant applicant does = not=20
    have to know (whew! = I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two tests = again.
    =A0
    Caelin

      -----Original = Message-----
      From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of = Rayburn, Timothy
      Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM
      To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG'
      Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

      Hmm....

      This just came to = me.=A0 Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) = the PE exam as well.=A0 So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why = have two exams?

      There may be wisdom = in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on = it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

      Timothy

      -----Original = Message-----
      From:=A0=A0 marsha.greene at mpan.com = [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]
      Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
      To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
      Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

      Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good ideas.=A0=A0 I might add some activities that
      happen during = the branch events:
      *=A0=A0 Be able = to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament
      events.
      *=A0=A0 Be able = to organize and be the court herald for courts held at = their
      branch.
      Hillary = Greenslade




      lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we need to know? =




      As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
      question to this = forum:

      "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

      In = service
      Darius, Ld = Tressure

      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
      =3D
      Go to = <http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html> to perform mailing = list tasks.






      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
      Go to = <http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html> to perform mailing = list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 15:40:10 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:40:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not attend any of the available sessions to be trained. AElfwyn, eyewitness ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:44:07 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of > how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently > involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions > right now. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.... > NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday > morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few > days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant > ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a > little different. Since in period the title Pursuivant Extraordinary applied to officers of arms who did what (if I understand correctly) Pursuivants-at-Large are intended to do, is there some substantial reason why the title wasn't just transferred over? Or is this another case of "Let's do it the SCA way" without much reference to period practice? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:41:18 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of > how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently > involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions > right now. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.... > NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday > morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few > days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant > ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a > little different. Since in period the title Pursuivant Extraordinary applied to officers of arms who did what (if I understand correctly) Pursuivants-at-Large are intended to do, is there some substantial reason why the title wasn't just transferred over? Or is this another case of "Let's do it the SCA way" without much reference to period practice? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 15:52:42 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:52:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206 Content-Type: text/plain Ah, well this is true. This goes to the arguement that Heralds need a PR firm working for them. I know when I was first told that Heralds spent their time pouring over books to document names, I was not jumping to signup. Likewise I know some people who when they get told that the Herald has to be willing to stand up in front of lots of people and project (not yell, not scream) information they decide they're not interested. Being able to show that a 'Heralds job' is very diverse and we have experts in certain areas who are not experts in all of it is important, I feel. Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:40 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > > > > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, > I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that > you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor > baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone > will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not > attend any of the available sessions to be trained. > > AElfwyn, eyewitness > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ah, well this is = true.  This goes to the arguement that Heralds need a PR firm = working for them.  I know when I was first told that Heralds spent = their time pouring over books to document names, I was not jumping to = signup.  Likewise I know some people who when they get told that = the Herald has to be willing to stand up in front of lots of people and = project (not yell, not scream) information they decide they're not = interested.  Being able to show that a 'Heralds job'  is very = diverse and we have experts in certain areas who are not experts in all = of it is important, I feel.

Timothy of = Glastonbury

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:40 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    > Rayburn, = Timothy wrote:
    >      [Tim Rayburn]  = Training someone to be your replacement should be
    >      the primary job of = any officer, Herald or Minister of Children.
    > 

    Granted.  But = you need someone who wants to train for it.  As you know,
    I'm trying to down = here.  But takers are slim.  All I'm saying is that
    you have to take = into consideration the realities of heraldically poor
    baronies, and = there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone
    will take over = who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did = not
    attend any of the = available sessions to be trained.

    AElfwyn, = eyewitness
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 15:51:15 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:51:15 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Donald Riney wrote: >As the duties of a PaL are and will be in > many significant ways different from a branch officer, the systems must > needs be a little different. > As I understand it, that's going to require far more autonomy and mastery of the subject, so I would think that this would be where the higher demonstration of ability would be required--perhaps with what is analogous to a certificate in a community college (oddly enough, I'm working on such a thing in real life). The Branch Warranting test is an entry level thing--like an SAT or GED of heraldry. You want them to eventually get a degree, the PaL designation. In order to encourage them to develop mastery across the curriculum, you have it broken down into segments and tested appropriately: for voice heraldry, a candidate requests and is observed in court and field by the appropriate members of the educational branch and given a certificate for mastering that. For Book Heraldry, participation and evaluation of the candidate by appropriate members of the heraldic community during one of the mass consultations. Since they've already taken the GED, we should be able to assume they have certain basic skills. Maybe an advanced conflict-checking test as a capstone. Just flinging out ideas, AElfwyn, who isn't as wed to her own ideas here as in the branch warranting ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Wed Aug 18 16:00:41 1999 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:00:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, > I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that > you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor > baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone > will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not > attend any of the available sessions to be trained. In my previous Shire, I had much the same situation. I had about eight deputies--but only three that lived in the Shire. Two moved away, one dropped out, and now that I've moved, my Shire will quickly be facing suspension because they don'thave a herald. I wish that training my replacement could have been my primary job, but as the deputies that were the most interested in getting trained lived one on the other end of my principality and one in another kingdom, neither were really in a position to take over my office. - -Aryanhwy merch Catmael Herald-At-Large, Midrealm (gosh, is that a weird feeling after being Falcon's Keep Pursuivant for three and a half years!!!) - ------------------------------------------------ Sara L. Friedemann sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu - ------------------------------------------------ "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" --Yeats - ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From shauna at 2a.net Wed Aug 18 16:19:28 1999 From: shauna at 2a.net (Shauna) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:19:28 -0600 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. May I interject here? Thanks. Please, could we use some other word? Last year (almost exactly), then Golden Wing's wife got very ill very suddenly. She died quite unexpectedly two weeks before Crown (she was autocrat) and the day before their son's third birthday. He stepped down as Golden Wing almost immediately. She was also Seneschal of their group. As a result, I have been on a one-person (mostly) campaign to change the common wording to 'emergency deputy'. Their are _lots_ of reasons why an office changes hands suddenly. Thanks for letting me vent. Mistress Shauna of Carrick Point Golden Wing Principal Herald for Artemisia shauna at 2a.net gwherald at hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Wed Aug 18 17:23:32 1999 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee & Sosha) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:23:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: (snip) > I know that for instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a > juggernaut of a beast that people studied for years to master. When I > finally did get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, > relatively speaking, simple the exam was. Hardly something you'd > study for years at. Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this > could encourage people. When I asked Da'ud to write up a new PE exam, it was with ulterior motives. The idea was to create a simple exam that anyone with a basic (to my way of thinking) knowledge of armory and a smattering of Ansteorran protocol could pass. This would, I thought, not only encourage those who might be interested in heraldry in all its facets to learn a bit more about heraldry, but also give the CoH a list of those displaying such interest, with an eye toward encouraging it. (Sort of the opposite of requiring gun registration for non-criminals.) The rumors of horrid beastliness came, I believe, mostly from people who took the test without following the advice given to would-be takers: know at least the very basics, go read Fox-Davies or something similarly beginnerlike, and pay attention at a couple of courts. Since I know of at least one knight who took it cold and passed easily with almost no previous experience, I can't say it was all that difficult. If the information is forthcoming, I too would be interested to know the reason of the change from PE to PaL. Not only is PE period, the style is still used mundanely today for various representative functions (i.e., Ambassador Extraordinary). I realize from my previous look around that several other kingdoms use it as an indication of lesser skill or apprenticeship, putting it between Coronet and full-fledged Pursuivant. But "they did it that way in (other Kingdom)" has seldom been reason to change our own traditions. Quite the opposite, in fact. :) Donal O Dochartaigh ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 17:52:07 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:52:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > "Pursuivants at Large" ... "Pusuivant Extrodinary" Since "extraordinary" in this sense is "Employed or sent upon an unusual or special service; as, an ambassador extraordinary.", and Da'ud or Tadhg informed me once that that he considered it an antonym to "officer in ordinary", "a prelate [or other officer?] exercising original jurisdiction over a specified territory or group", I don't think the semantic difference between the two terms is large. Daniel "here, have a nit" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 18:05:00 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:05:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Oh, a procedural nit on PE / PaL / Roving Attack Heralds / whatever: any existing warrants / designations of such should be explicitly voided en masse before the new ones start to be created. Amra in the Steppes has told me that he enjoys having a permanent warrant as PaL / PE / I forget what, and other people may have them as well. Hey, I *said* it was a nit! Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 18 19:43:34 1999 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:43:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > Oh, a procedural nit on PE / PaL / Roving Attack Heralds / whatever: > any existing warrants / designations of such should be explicitly > voided en masse before the new ones start to be created. Amra in the > Steppes has told me that he enjoys having a permanent warrant as PaL / > PE / I forget what, and other people may have them as well. Okay, I will jump in with a question. Eons ago, when Aureliane was Star, her criteria for Pursuivant involved competency in three of four areas of heraldry (voice, court, "book," or heraldic artistry). There was a written test for PE (which was then a rank below P), and she did a one-on-one oral exam, if you will, for the rank of pursuivant. Okay, she grilled me over a weekend or so sometime in 1986, and told me I'd made pursuivant (at large). Being Aureliane, she never got around to putting it in writing, so my letter of rank was signed by Adelicia in 1987. So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. > Hey, I *said* it was a nit! I know, I know, but now it's crawling on me! - --Alisandre "daring to disagree with Daniel" Oliphant ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Wed Aug 18 20:16:32 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:16:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > First: The format of the rewriten class will not be lecture then have a > test. It will be a teaching session/workshop where in the instructor will go > over the information and work with those taking the class to fillout a > worksheet, which will remain with the person as sort of a crib note. so when > they are acting as a branch officer, should the occaision arise that they > need the information, they will be able to look back to that worksheet and > either have the info on hand or know who to call. This class will not only > be for Baronial officers. though branches below baronial level will soon no > longer be required to have a herald, I feel that many will chose to maintain > the position on their roster. So the class will also be for warrenting those > officers as well. > Very basic starting information should be basic submission process and requirements, basic event heraldry organization, contact information for regional officer and Asterisk Herald. If you teach the process of getting a submission to Asterisk and have them contact the regional herald or Asterisk for research assistance that would cover getting the submission in. I would have a basic heraldry handout that the person taking the class could take with them for reference. It can take quite a while to learn the basic rules for submission and know them well enough to quote from memory. Also, if you teach the basic information of what the Event Herald is responsible for and who to contact for assistance in organizing the heraldry for the event; I think that most regional heralds will know or be able to arrange for help at the event. Not everyone is going to want to be the court herald or to do field heraldry. Most new heralds will have some trouble remembering the rules for submissions, much less how court is to be run. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 20:28:31 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that level. *spocks an eyebrow* Oh? Subject to Society laws (e.g., Corpora, Board rulings, et cetera) and kingdom law (e.g., law proper, officer handbooks), a kingdom principal herald can structure the kingdom College of Heralds as he liseth and give people such offices, titles, and ranks as he will. The only things that really can't be nuked at will are SCA awards; those require heroic measures. P-a-L can't be viewed as an SCA award, because - - it wasn't called an award or order - - it wasn't given in court at a newsletter event (Corpora) - - only a landed type can give awards (Corpora) Since Star didn't have the power to give awards, it can't be an award. It has to be an honorific, an office, a rank, et cetera. If he says "*poof* you're not a Pursuivant-At-Large in the Ansteorran College of Heralds any more", then *poof*. > > Hey, I *said* it was a nit! > I know, I know, but now it's crawling on me! The *egg* of a louse is crawling on you? Oh, buggerit. I just remembered the Corpora provision that ossifers have to be paid members of SCA Inc. A California 501(c)3 Not-For- Profit Corporation Accept No Substitutes. That means authorizers have to bother to check membership cards and membership expiration dates. May I suggest that the rank of PaL / PE / Attack Pursuivants be decoupled from that, but if you're not a Paid Member Of SCA Inc. you just can't do anything officer-like? That is, you're as free as anyone else in the kingdom to spout off on what you think heraldry is, suggest to people who they should consult for more info, advise them on how to fill out forms -- but not accept forms, money, or otherwise act on behalf of the Ansteorran College of Heralds, until you get your new Paid Member Card (TM)? And have that activity count towards renewal? Daniel "moderately pro-Society but moderately rabid anti-SCA Inc." de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 05:46:22 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Darius and Monica wrote: > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" 1. How to spell "warrant". Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 05:57:53 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > "Pursuivants at Large" ... "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > > Since "extraordinary" in this sense is "Employed or sent upon an > unusual or special service; as, an ambassador extraordinary.", and > Da'ud or Tadhg informed me once that that he considered it an antonym > to "officer in ordinary", "a prelate [or other officer?] exercising > original jurisdiction over a specified territory or group", I don't > think the semantic difference between the two terms is large. > > Daniel "here, have a nit" de Lincolia I'll see your nit, and raise you one. "Extraordinary" means an officer outside of the regular establishment for such officers. The use in "Ambassador Extraordinary" is an historic relic of a time when it wasn't normal to keep embassies in other folk's territories; each embassy was sent for a special purpose. In modern Britain, "[Officer] Extraordinary" is usually somebody given a title because of some special expertise or sometimes merely because they need extra help; that's the major rationale behind our use of "Herald Extraordinary" titles for people who have been Star. In this case, since (if I understand it correctly) "Pursuivants at Large" won't have any title other than that, they are functionally Pursuivants Extraordinary, and I see no obvious reason not to call them that. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 06:03:26 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim > this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at > large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that > level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; > it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. That's a very good point, which I don't recall ever having been made explicit before. Is "Pursuivant" an office? Or is it a certification of a level of expertise? I'd be prepared to argue that in Period "Herald" was invariably an office, while "Pursuivant" was like "Apprentice", something that could indicate a formal position but that could also indicate merely pursuit of knowledge in a certain field. I suggest that it would be of significant value to settle this point prior to doing anything else. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 06:10:07 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:10:07 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: OK I believe both Daniel and Alessander bring up good points, First there is not a lot of semantic difference between the two titles. Two those who were given the rank of Pursuivant at large befor the last test came out should keep their privlege. as much for their knowlege as thier service to the college. this is one of the reasons to change the term we are actively using. Now, "What does a branch officer _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 06:14:24 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Now, "What does a branch officer _need_ to know?" Let's work backward from requirements to specifications, says the software engineer. (1) What does a branch officer *need* to *do*? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer *needs* to know. (2) What is a branch officer expected to do *beyond* the bare minimum required to hold the office? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer *ought* to know above what he *needs* to know. (3) What would we like to see a branch officer be able to do? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer ought to be aiming for. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Thu Aug 19 07:04:14 1999 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:04:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: I seemed to have caused a bit of a stir. Attempting to use "Pursuiviant At Large" as the label for those who are "certified", "identified" and any other "-ied" indicating a more than basic knowledge of heraldry and that are willing and are able to support heraldic activities in the Kingdom does not appear to have avoided the problem. My original reason for not using PE was that it has been given as a rank in the college over the years and does not expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I am not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there a better designator? - --Francois, Star - -----Original Message----- From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [mailto:tiomoid at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:03 AM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? - --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim > this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at > large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that > level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; > it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. That's a very good point, which I don't recall ever having been made explicit before. Is "Pursuivant" an office? Or is it a certification of a level of expertise? I'd be prepared to argue that in Period "Herald" was invariably an office, while "Pursuivant" was like "Apprentice", something that could indicate a formal position but that could also indicate merely pursuit of knowledge in a certain field. I suggest that it would be of significant value to settle this point prior to doing anything else. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Thu Aug 19 11:11:06 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:11:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I > wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I am > not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there a > better designator? > > --Francois, Star How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate region). Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 11:40:48 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Eirik wrote: > > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to > > expire I wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be > > a good choice. I am not so sure that it is a great choice. What > > do people think? Is there a better designator? > > > > --Francois, Star > > How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert > appropriate region). How about "Assistant Regional Herald"? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 13:34:42 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:34:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E Content-Type: text/plain How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse Pursuivant (Central Regional Herald). This both distinguishes them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and does not SCA-ize them into 'At-Large's. Further it has the added bonus of making it clear whenever the title is used which area, roughly, they are from. I like this idea, Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Eirik [SMTP:eirik at n-link.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire > I > > wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I > am > > not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there > a > > better designator? > > > > --Francois, Star > > How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate > region). > > Eirik > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

How about they are = titled, by region, as Extrodinary.

For example, a = non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central region would be = Eclipse Extraordinary.  His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse = Pursuivant (Central Regional Herald).  This both distinguishes = them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and does not SCA-ize them into = 'At-Large's.  Further it has the added bonus of making it clear = whenever the title is used which area, roughly, they are = from.

I like this = idea,

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant
-----Original Message-----

    From:   Eirik [SMTP:eirik at n-link.com]
    Sent:   Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    > expire. Since I = wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I
    > wanted to use = something else.  P at large seemed to be a good choice.  = I
    am
    > not so sure = that it is a great choice.  What do people think?  Is there = a
    > better = designator?
    >
    > --Francois, = Star

    How about deputy = herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate
    region).

    Eirik

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 14:08:20 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an office title. There is only one Eclipse. > His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse Pursuivant (Central > Regional Herald). Um? I thought Eclipse was Eclipse Herald? Or have we reverted to the Silly Old Practice of varying the rank to suit the officeholder rather than pegging it to the office? > This both distinguishes them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and > does not SCA-ize them into 'At-Large's. Further it has the added > bonus of making it clear whenever the title is used which area, > roughly, they are from. > > I like this idea, I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Thu Aug 19 14:29:10 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 16:29:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: Greetings, We are working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who has help us so far) and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me if the current favorite has conflicts. The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. It seems in my faded heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of required charges. Is this true or did I dream it. Thanks for the help. (P.S. The talk is now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever get off the ground. Somebody shoot me now!!! :) ) Thanks, Mere Shirden ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 14:39:53 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at their event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 14:45:36 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:45:36 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E Content-Type: text/plain Quoth the RfS: 3. Required Charges Transparent - Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory. As such, given the last sentence, if you are comparing official Society Armory (your groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the laurel wreath DOES COUNT. Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:29 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's > > Greetings, > We are working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who > has help us so far) and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me > if > the current favorite has conflicts. The preposed blazon is: Or in pale > three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I > checked the on line ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two > registered devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. It seems > in my faded heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of > required charges. Is this true or did I dream it. Thanks for the help. > (P.S. The talk is now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever > get off the ground. Somebody shoot me now!!! :) ) > > Thanks, > Mere > Shirden > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's

Quoth the = RfS:
3. Required Charges Transparent - = Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may = consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges = were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in = complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like = the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a = laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not = conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or = three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for = difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add = to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official = Society armory with any other armory.
<end = Quote>

As such, given the = last sentence, if you are comparing official Society Armory (your = groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the laurel = wreath DOES COUNT.

Timothy of = Glastonbury


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:29 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's

    Greetings,
            We are = working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who
    has help us so = far)  and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me = if
    the current = favorite has conflicts.  The preposed blazon is: Or in pale
    three escallops = inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or.  I
    checked the on line = ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two
    registered devices = unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath.  It seems
    in my faded = heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of
    required = charges.  Is this true or did I dream it.  Thanks for the = help.
    (P.S. The talk is = now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever
    get off the = ground.  Somebody shoot me now!!! :) )

    Thanks,
    Mere
    Shirden    

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Thu Aug 19 14:49:18 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 16:49:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: Yeah!!! Maybe were on to something now. Thanks! Mere [Snip] >As such, given the last sentence, if you are comparing official Society >Armory (your groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the >laurel wreath DOES COUNT. > >Timothy of Glastonbury ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 16:34:35 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:34:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Tadhg won at "Spot the Hidden Assumption". Mine, in this case, where I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of being. On the other hand, can it be said that the modified titles "Pursuivant Extraordinary" and "Pursuivant-at-Large" are job titles? This is clearer in the PE case, as "Extraordinary" implies a job specifically, one outside the line structure. As for the suggestions relating to "deputy regional herald" et al ... Personally, I'd prefer to use a period title in a way close to the period meaning, than a modern-looking descriptive title that I find boring. Further, a PE/PaL would not be a deputy of any particular regional, right? We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius is available; any others? We also have some kingdom order names we can use. Garter King of Arms is associated with the Order of the Garter; ditto Toisson D'Or (I'm pretty sure I misspled that: "Golden Fleece") doubtless did in Burgundy. (Ideally, such a named herald would have any special duties for that order, like calling up candidates for receiving those awards, but that could become a zoo at Steppes Twelfth Night. "Is Star of Merit Pursuivant here? Here's your two, and get the insignia from Anna. HEY, WHITE SCARF! OVER HERE! We've been looking for you!") For that matter, it's even possible loot the baronies. Maybe *unwise*, but I'm brainstorming now. Tell them that their baronial service order is now their branch herald's title, on the Garter model, and pounce on their old baronial title. The Steppes herald would be Oak Pursuivant, and Oakenwald might be offered to any PE/PaL that has a connection to Steppes. All in all, I think plain PE/PaL is the best. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 19 18:13:04 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a > laurel wreath or. What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? I was going to second-guess your conflict check (nothing personal, I'm like that, it's an obsession) but can't parse the blazon. The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. X.3. says that if you're counting two devices, each with the _same_ restricted charge (laurel wreath, crown, etc.) as primary charge, you can get X.1. or X.2. difference for secondary charges and pretend the laurel wreath or crown or whatever isn't there. That's it. And it should only be invoked if the armory cannot be cleared using any other rules. If you can get the CDs from X.4. or clear it by X.1. or X.2., pretend X.3. never existed - you don't need it. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 18:36:47 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Teceangl wrote: > The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. That's the easy way to go -- it hardly ever matters. > X.3. says that if you're counting two devices, each with the _same_ > restricted charge (laurel wreath, crown, etc.) as primary charge, > you can get X.1. or X.2. difference for secondary charges and > pretend the laurel wreath or crown or whatever isn't there. Um, no. To quote again: 3. Required Charges Transparent - Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, "Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules" would not conflict with "Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules". Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory. It does not say that the required charge is the primary, much less the same charge on each. The example given doesn't have any required charges as primary. It does not say you can get X.1. It says Difference of Primary Charges only, which is X.2. Basically, X.3 ought to be a subclause of X.2's infro paragraph. Well, actually, the whole Napoleonic notion of "required charges" should be tossed into the trash. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 18:50:44 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:50:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Debra Poole wrote: > The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on a > bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line > ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered > devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. I agree with Alanna: the proposed blazon is indecipherable. Also, please tell us who owns the two items you suspect of conflict, and what their blazons are. They may be clear by some other rule, or we may be able to apply X.3, or ... Basically, the mor information, the better. I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a little too generic. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:18:01 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - -- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador > Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This > fictional > person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not > have a > standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE > currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who > does > not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry > at their > event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald > couldn't make > the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title > Ambassador/Eclipse. No, we have an rank Ambassador/Herald. You mistake the correspondence. In the phrase "Duke of Norfolk", "Duke" is the rank and "Norfolk" the title. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:59:53 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > Tadhg won at "Spot the Hidden Assumption". Mine, in this case, where > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of > being. Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were both. > On the other hand, can it be said that the modified titles > "Pursuivant Extraordinary" and "Pursuivant-at-Large" are job titles? Say rather "functional positions". "Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job type, "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. > This is clearer in the PE case, as "Extraordinary" implies a job > specifically, one outside the line structure. Which can have a title or not, depending on how it is handled. > As for the suggestions relating to "deputy regional herald" et al > ... Personally, I'd prefer to use a period title in a way close to > the period meaning, than a modern-looking descriptive title that I > find boring. (Me, too, but you see how far that gets.) I wasn't aware that "Pursuivant at Large" is a period title; on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby be tainted for our purposes. (Once we figure out what those purposes are....) > Further, a PE/PaL would not be a deputy of any particular > regional, right? Dunno. (Who does?) Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more > heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius > is available; any others? That's what I would do, but it depends on how Lord Star wants to handle it. I registered a lot of titles when I was Star for *precisely* that purpose (among others). Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 21:37:04 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:37:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Hanaper ("Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle" ) wrote: > > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of > > being. > > Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were both. Since I got active here late in Dathi's tenure, I only recall seeing it as a job title. > "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. Ah. A name has to go with it, then; nobody in period would have written "Know ye that I John Blow Pursuivant Extraordinary", but rather "John Blow Windsor PE", "Thistle Herald", whatever. > on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant > Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the > SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby be > tainted for our purposes. I say hand the baggage over to the bomb squad -- let them take it to a deserted field and blow it up harmlessly. "We are not bound by our past mistakes" and "We can do better" [I presume]. We're winning against "-ocrat" and even against "autocrat"; "charter" (versus "scroll") isn't entirely hopeless; et cetera. "Pursuivant Extraordinary", to my relatively-new eyes, is rare enough in Ansteorra that we can do "the right thing" ... when we discover what it is ... or at least a righter thing. (By the way: the SCA College of Arms no longer does "Lord / Lady ". Unlike Lord Lyon, none of our heralds get to try miscreants, or get people charged with treason if they diss us while we're wearing a tabard, or anything cool like that. Since that change, territorial names are now registerable as titles.) > Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, > righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? That's what I was figuring. That's what I'd like to do. (I suppose if we followed the medieval pattern of friars, we'd need the approval of the local bishop^Wregional herald to preach in their territory. Let's not.) > Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? Well, if they had a fixed jurisdiction, wouldn't they be in ordinary? Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 05:56:25 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 05:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state > > > of being. > > > > Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were > > both. > > Since I got active here late in Dathi's tenure, I only recall seeing > it as a job title. (Oh, I'm sorry -- am I showing my age again?) > > "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. > > Ah. A name has to go with it, then; nobody in period would have > written "Know ye that I John Blow Pursuivant Extraordinary", but > rather "John Blow Windsor PE", "Thistle Herald", whatever. Precisely. > > on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant > > Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the > > SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby > > be tainted for our purposes. > > I say hand the baggage over to the bomb squad -- let them take it to > a deserted field and blow it up harmlessly. "We are not bound by our > past mistakes" and "We can do better" [I presume]. Well, *I* feel that way, and apparently *you* feel that way, but a lot of people (a lot of *very significant people*) don't feel that way. (Can we take them out into the same field and blow them up too? Please?) > We're winning > against "-ocrat" and even against "autocrat"; "charter" (versus > "scroll") isn't entirely hopeless; et cetera. "Pursuivant > Extraordinary", to my relatively-new eyes, is rare enough in > Ansteorra that we can do "the right thing" ... when we discover > what it is ... or at least a righter thing. Ah'm fur it.... > (By the way: the SCA College of Arms no longer does "Lord / Lady > ". Unlike Lord Lyon, none of our heralds get to try > miscreants, or get people charged with treason if they diss us while > we're wearing a tabard, or anything cool like that. Since that > change, territorial names are now registerable as titles.) *sigh* I rather liked that usage. Oh, well. I hope nobody is too terribly offended if I still use it...? > > Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, > > righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? > > That's what I was figuring. That's what I'd like to do. Oh, well, if we're doing what we'd LIKE to do -- I have a little list.... > > Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > > Well, if they had a fixed jurisdiction, wouldn't they be in ordinary? And I see nothing wrong with that. Where the need arises, let's establish a deputy regional herald (or two, or three), and check some of the unused titles out of the arsenal for that purpose. Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:12:05 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:12:05 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a group could just be a pursuivant. >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at >their >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:12:20 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:12:20 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a group could just be a pursuivant. Darius >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at >their >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Fri Aug 20 07:29:46 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:29:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834 Content-Type: text/plain Ok... how about this one : For those who have been granted their title for life by the College let us check them out, or register for them, a permanant name from the Heraldic Job Title List. This would then notablly distinguish Gladesong Pursuivant Extraordinary, for instance, from Timothy of Glastonbury PE. It brings enough of a distinction from warrant expiring PEs, I would think, that there wouldn't be a problem. Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald Riney [SMTP:dariusobells at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:12 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers > will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to > a > group could just be a pursuivant. > > Darius > > >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" > >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" > >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador > >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This > fictional > >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have > a > >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE > >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does > >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at > >their > >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't > make > >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title > >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been > >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds > >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald > >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your > >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical > >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I > think. > > > > > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > > > >========================================================================= > === > >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ok... how about this = one :

For those who have = been granted their title for life by the College let us check them out, = or register for them, a permanant name from the Heraldic Job Title = List.  This would then notablly distinguish Gladesong Pursuivant = Extraordinary, for instance, from Timothy of Glastonbury PE.  It = brings enough of a distinction from warrant expiring PEs, I would = think, that there wouldn't be a problem.

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Donald Riney = [SMTP:dariusobells at hotmail.com]
    Sent:   Friday, August 20, 1999 8:12 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Would there be any = problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping =
    the = "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all = branch officers will
    be identified by = their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example
    Lindenwood = Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a =
    group could just be = a pursuivant.

    Darius

    >From: = "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com>
    >Reply-To: = heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    >To: = "'Heralds Mailing List'" <heralds at Ansteorra.ORG>
    >Subject: RE: = ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?
    >Date: Thu, 19 = Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500
    >
    > > = - -----Original Message-----
    > > = From:       Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle = [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com]
    > > = Sent:       Thursday, August 19, 1999 = 4:08 PM
    > > = To:heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    > > = Subject:    RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?
    > >
    > > --- = "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com> = wrote:
    > >
    > > > How = about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary.
    > >
    > > = "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary.
    > >
    > > > For = example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central
    > > > = region would be Eclipse Extraordinary.
    > >
    > > No, = because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and = "Eclipse" is an
    > > office = title. There is only one Eclipse.
    > >
    >       [Tim = Rayburn]  But let us take the example of Ambassador
    >Extraordinary = you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier.  This = fictional
    >person would be = sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a
    >standing = Ambassador.  How is this different from a trained herald = (PE
    >currently) = being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does
    >not have a = Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at
    >their
    >event, or to = run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make
    >the = event?  We have a specific event, and we have an office = title
    >Ambassador/Eclipse.  While I realize that to = this point Eclipse has been
    >just one = person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds
    >have been = mostly paper-pushers.  What is wrong with having Eclipse = Herald
    >being able to = assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your
    >argument = Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical
    >Canton.  I = am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think.
    >
    >
    >
    > > I dislike = it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy = Eclipse
    > > = Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the = disadvantages.
    > >
    > >
    > > Tadhg, = Hanaper
    > >
    >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.


    _________________________________________________________= ______
    Get Free Email and = Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Fri Aug 20 08:25:02 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: >> Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a >> laurel wreath or. >What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops >both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember >to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie >along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). Caelin >- Teceangl ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Fri Aug 20 08:38:32 1999 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:38:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: >What's a "bend rising"? >Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, > "bend rising". It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). IIRC, there is no difference given between a "bend rising" and a bend because the bend rising was just a depiction of a bend on a curved shield. Keep it in mind when doing conflict checking. Modar ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 09:04:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:04:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". No. "Bend enarched". It's an artistic detail not worth a CD. "Rising" means that it has wings, always elevated and addorsed I think, and its body is angled so it looks like it's taking off. You can't have a winged ordinary -- sorry! Daniel "Foster's: Australian for 'beer', British for 'heraldry'" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From werisman at mail.utexas.edu Fri Aug 20 10:34:56 1999 From: werisman at mail.utexas.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:34:56 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: At 11:37 PM 8/19/99 -0500, Daniel wrote: >We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more >heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius >is available; any others? Actually, there aren't that many available. I went through all the titles at the Westgate symposium (with help from Tadhg and Da'ud) and discovered that, after you eliminate branch titles, current office titles, and personal titles of former Stars, there are only a handful left. We've used Armillary and Arbalest and several others (including Actuarius and Orle) are associated with offices that are currently vacant but may well be used again in the not too distant future. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 12:10:54 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: - --- tmcd at jump.net wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Debra Poole wrote: > > The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on > > a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line > > ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered > > devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. > > I agree with Alanna: the proposed blazon is indecipherable. I've seen the design in question, and I think it certifiably NPS. The "bend rising" is what I would call a bend enhanced to sinister; it looks very unbalanced with the three escallops in pale. I don't know where the term "bend rising" came from, but I suspect it was some place dark and dim that we don't want to go.... > I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a > little too generic. Pedant. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 13:38:07 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:38:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: >> I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a >> little too generic. > Pedant. True, but not in this case. There have been recent complains about subject lines saying just "Name help" or "Device help". DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 13:39:42 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: Gwenllian wrote: > several others (including Actuarius and Orle) > are associated with offices that are currently vacant but may well be used > again in the not too distant future. I got the impression somewhere that period heraldic titles were not associated with any particular job, and neither are they in modern times. This is just a dim impression; does anyone have data? DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 14:53:27 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: DdL wrote: > that period heraldic titles were not associated with any > particular job I should clarify that as "unless it was as a king of arms of a college of heralds, or if the title went with that of an order name". DdL (suddenly thought of Garter) - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 17:19:57 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". > Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch > officers will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For > example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not > attached to a > group could just be a pursuivant. That certainly does no damage to the historical paradigm. "Pursuivant" implies that the person is not an heraldic expert, still learning, but has a minimal amount of knowledge -- and that about descibes the sort of people who would be put in that situation. Works for me.... Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Fri Aug 20 19:17:57 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:17:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > Dunno. (Who does?) Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", > doing good, righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? Or do they > cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > > > We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more > > heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius > > is available; any others? > > That's what I would do, but it depends on how Lord Star wants to handle > it. I registered a lot of titles when I was Star for *precisely* that > purpose (among others). >From what I've read in the Gazette it would be reasonable to conclude that the PE/PaLs would be available as a resource to the regional and baronial heralds where they live. I would also conclude that a PE that live in Middleford (for this assume we don't have a herald) would be available to assist the regional herald with heraldic business in Middleford and surrounding groups. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Fri Aug 20 19:19:08 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:19:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a > group could just be a pursuivant. > Sounds like a good idea. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Aug 21 10:48:34 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:48:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: branch qualifications, heralds errant Message-ID: Just got had a chance to catch back up on the list, and I have a few quick comments about this thread. The requirements for a branch herald should be those qualifications that make having a herald better than leaving the office empty. Otherwise we are hurting ourselves. Among nice to know is pronunciation. This can be as never-ending as names research, but making the effort before tourney or court is a huge boost to the tourney/court and to the respect of the CoH. Re: looting titles. they are registered to the branches. Knowingly using a title registered to someone else without their permission is on a level with using an emblazon registered to someone else. Some kingdoms use a Chirurgeons guild instead of an officer structure. Would this work here? at least for the roving heralds? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sat Aug 21 11:25:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:25:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: branch qualifications, heralds errant Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Amy & Bill Morris wrote: > Re: looting titles. they are registered to the branches. Well, here's a place where rules and perception conflict. The only beings that can register new heraldic titles are the Society itself (for Laurel and Laurel staff) and kingdoms (for everyone else). [1] For example, the e-Armorial has Callisto Pursuivant|8708L|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Candelaio Pursuivant|9510X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of| Oakenwald Pursuivant|8104L|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Nautilus Pursuivant|9009X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Nordsteorra Herald|9201X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of| et cetera. The fourth field holds the owner name. [2] I suspect that substituting baronial order titles for baronial heralds' titles would cause less fuss [3], heraldic title fu being of less general interest. I don't know, however, and I don't think we ought to try and find out. [1] I was careful to say "new heraldic titles". A recent change was to allow heraldic titles to be registered to people, formalizing the previous practice where titles were registered for the exclusive use of the person. The process is that either Laurel or a kingdom has to register the title, and then transfer it. As with any transfer, it has to go on an LoI, with letters from the donor giving the title and a letter from the donee accepting it, and if one requirement is missed the transfer fails. (E.g. 12/94 LoAR: East, Kingdom of the. Transfer of heraldic titles to the Kingdom of Drachenwald. Albion Herald Aurochs Pursuivant Broken Wain Herald Edelweiss Herald Post Horn Pursuivant Schwarzdrachen Herald As no letter accepting the transfer of these titles has been received from Drachenwald, we are unable to make such transfer. ) [2] In a similar disconnect between popular perception and rules, I think most people would be surprised to learn that SCA Inc. could by law suck dry their local branch treasury, and I hope they would be upset, viewing that as the local branch's money. It is not sufficiently appreciated that, because there is one corporation and all bank accounts are "SCA Inc.--", SCA Inc. actually owns all the money in branch bank accounts. (This becomes clearer with financial reports -- it's why local treasurers have to be prompt about their financial reports, because kingdoms have to add up all the figures for *their* reports, which the SCA Inc. Treasurer has to add up to do the corporate tax return!) [3] "We've replaced their baronial pursuivant's title with new Folger Pursuivant. Let's see if they notice!" Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Sat Aug 21 12:16:16 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of a submission Message-ID: The one I'm trying to track is ILoI 0399, Cathlin Sommerfield, resubmitted badge. Anyone know where it is in the pipeline? AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:31:03 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > I got the impression somewhere that period heraldic titles were > not associated with any particular job, and neither are they in > modern times. This is just a dim impression; does anyone have data? Certainly they weren't as closely bound to specific functions as they are in the SCA, but they still had regular duties. There isn't a lot of data on the heraldic establishments of countries outside of the British Isles, that I've seen, but it seems plain that titled officers of arms served the nobles from whom they received their offices, and did the sort of things that officers of arms do. Bear in mind that we do orders of magnitude more registrations and tourneys than they did (which is why they had the time to do more in each case than we can do). Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:38:51 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Eirik wrote: > From what I've read in the Gazette it would be reasonable to conclude > that the PE/PaLs would be available as a resource to the regional and > baronial heralds where they live. "But that trick never works...." At least it hasn't in the past -- the only people who will draw on such a resource are people who really don't need it. I'd like to see them be fairly proactive; perhaps we could run our own version of Heraldic Visitations, desending upon some poor unsuspecting branch and heraldizing them out of a years growth. > I would also conclude that a PE that live in Middleford (for this > assume we don't have a herald) would be available to assist the > regional herald with heraldic business in Middleford and surrounding > groups. Uh, in that case, why isn't this person the group's officer of arms? If s/he has the time to help out the regional, s/he's got the time to do the local job. Heraldry begins at home. Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Sun Aug 22 16:24:58 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:24:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Uh, in that case, why isn't this person the group's officer of arms? If > s/he has the time to help out the regional, s/he's got the time to do > the local job. Heraldry begins at home. > Could be the same reason Chirurgeons at Large do not serve as a branch chirurgeons. This is hypothetical anyway. Also there may be several qualified PE/PaLs in a branch, one of which is the branch herald. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 00:38:52 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: I said: > > The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. Daniel said: > That's the easy way to go -- it hardly ever matters. Then I screwed up and misintrepreted X.3. by relating it to X.1 and X.2. Daniel fixed it: > It does not say you can get X.1. It says Difference of Primary > Charges only, which is X.2. He's right, of course. And remember, try everything else first unless you're completey certain you understand X.3. (Heck, do it anyway. It's good practice. :) - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 00:42:30 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > >> Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a > >> laurel wreath or. > > >What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops > >both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember > >to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie > >along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? > > Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". > It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). So we're to wondering about the rest of the blazon, then. Part is "Or" for the field, part is "three escallops inverted" and part is "on a bend enarched sable a laurel wreath Or". Clear enough, but since you put "in pale" so early in the blazon I'm not certain if you have three escallops inverted (*must* they be inverted? 80% of the registered escallops are upside-down and I'm personally tired of looking at so much gas-station-sign heraldry in the SCA) in pale down the field, or somehow arranged above the bend (which is weird, but possible). How, please, are the escallops arranged on the field? - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Mon Aug 23 07:29:58 1999 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:29:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Ok, we have discussed what branch officers need to know. We have discussed the name we will call our heralds that are not attached to the branches. I would now raise another question: As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? Darius, Ld Tressure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 07:51:49 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:51:49 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610 Content-Type: text/plain There are several areas that can be used for teaching : * Classes are very important. Classes on all sorts of subjects, including but not in any way limited to, conflict-checking, basic name research, field heraldry, basic OP understanding, Precedence Awareness, Court Heraldry traditions, etc. * Community. This has worked very well in Elfsea which has developed quite a thriving Heraldic Community under Darius as Nautilus. The feeling of community amoung heralds, having commentary meetings open and inviting and welcome to simple conversation and humerous comments. * Student/Teacher relationships. Some people just work well together. Encouraging these people to teach each other their expertise in a less than formal classroom area works very well. * Critique. Teaching and encouraging people to be open to critiquing (in a good way) what each other are doing. This also gives the chance to deliver the greatest tool to get someone to Herald again : Encouragment and Thanks, privately one on one. > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 9:30 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... > > Ok, we have discussed what branch officers need to know. We have > discussed the name we will call our heralds that are not attached to the > branches. I would now raise another question: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will > soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to > participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready > and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we > will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a > hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? > > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - what about...

There are several = areas that can be used for teaching :

  • Classes are = very important.  Classes on all sorts of subjects, including but = not in any way limited to, conflict-checking, basic name research, = field heraldry, basic OP understanding, Precedence Awareness, Court = Heraldry traditions, etc.
  • Community.  = This has worked very well in Elfsea which has developed quite a = thriving Heraldic Community under Darius as Nautilus.  The feeling = of community amoung heralds, having commentary meetings open and = inviting and welcome to simple conversation and humerous = comments.
  • Student/Teacher = relationships.   Some people just work well together.  = Encouraging these people to teach each other their expertise in a less = than formal classroom area works very well.
  • Critique.  = Teaching and encouraging people to be open to critiquing (in a good = way) what each other are doing.  This also gives the chance to = deliver the greatest tool to get someone to Herald again : Encouragment = and Thanks, privately one on one.


    • -----Original Message-----
    From:   Darius and Monica = [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net]
    Sent:   Monday, August 23, 1999 9:30 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - what about...

    Ok, we have = discussed what branch officers need to know. We have
    discussed the name = we will call our heralds that are not attached to the
    branches. I would = now raise another question:
    As we set into = place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will
    soon have fewer = branch officers, how should we encourage new people to
    participate in = heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready
    and armed to be a = pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we
    will need new blood = in the college. People who want to learn and lend a
    hand. How do we = teach them what they need to know?

    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 09:04:05 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: - --- Darius and Monica wrote: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that > will soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new > people to participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who > appear ready and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have > many who are not. we will need new blood in the college. People who > want to learn and lend a hand. How do we teach them what they need > to know? Historically, we (and by this I mean the entire SCA) have depended on people picking stuff up on their own. Oh, we hold occasional classes and every now and then a symposium, but mostly we hand them a list of books and say, "Go to it." I have always disliked this method. Heraldry is like the scribal arts: It's not just a case of a period "interest" that people can follow as the spirit moves them -- we need trained people to function as officers in that field. So we need to be far more proactive than we've been in the past. We need to encourage people to use armory everywhere. This might include giving additional prizes in arts competitions/demonstrations for projects that use armory well. We need to hold demonstrations to show people how heraldry can enrich their lives. There are books out there with luscious illustrations of good armory; let's get these and show them around. We need to compile introductory materials designed to transmit elementary heraldic knowledge as painlessly as possible. We've been hammering these out on an ad-hoc basis over the last twenty years, but we need to (a) ask people what they find hard or confusing about armory, (b) find out what seems to be working and what doesn't, and (c) come up with a supply of materials that we can use to lead people from Know Nothing to Useful Commentor by comfortable stages. We need to promote films that do heraldry well, such as Branagh's "Henry V" and "A Man For All Seasons". We need to dump on movies that do heraldry badly, like "Ivanhoe". We need to encourage authenticity at every turn, because Authenticity Is Our Friend -- we want people to pick authentic names and good period-style armory. We need to set up systems so that forms and reports, while still doing everything they need to do, are as unburdensome as possible. We need to run training so that prospective officers of arms won't get stage fright when doing court and field heraldry. That includes devising formulae that all are happy with and them making everybody memorize and use them. Spontaneity is fine in its place, but people work better within a framework of well-known, comfortable ritual. (This also means stepping on people who want change just for the sake of change. If a change isn't NECESSARY, it's BAD.) Strong letter follows.... Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 15:40:14 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:40:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: Hello again, In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. The blazon is : Azure, a semy of mullets argent. This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) and is very visually distinctive. My search shows NO entries within the O&A that use a semy of mullets, of any color, as the Primary. Very popular seems to be a bordure semy of mullets, but not the field. The only entries in the O&A with SEMY and MULLET are as follows : Bruinnech Longstrider The following device associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via the East): Azure, a drop spindle argent and a bordure argent semy of mullets of six points azure. Denise MacMhathain The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1985 (via Atenveldt): Argent, semy of decrescents vert, a spider tergiant sable charged with a mullet argent. James FitzGarth The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1985 (via the Middle): Vert, semy of buttercups Or, a griffin segreant, and on a chief argent, three mullets azure. Joscelyn FitzHarry of Gillyflower The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of 1980 and converted to device and reblazoned in April of 1984 (via Caid): Per fess arched azure, mulletty argent, and gules, semy of apples, a sun in his splendour Or between the horns of an increscent moon argent. Kyneburh Boithuile The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1999 (via Atlantia): Per bend argent and azure, a mullet of eight points counterchanged, a bordure sable semy of quatrefoils argent. Marie du Puy The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1994 (via Calontir): Argent, a sea-horse azure within a bordure sable, semy of mullets of four points argent. Olwen ferch Rhys of Aberdovey The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1994 (via the East): Vert, semy of roses argent, a horse salient and on a chief Or three mullets of six points vert. Reya nam Beanntan The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1985 (via the East): Per pale argent and sable, semy of crescents, within a bordure charged with three mullets of eight points, all counterchanged. Robert Runewald The following device associated with this name was registered in February of 1998 (via Atlantia): Per pale azure and Or, semy of arrows inverted, a crab, on a bordure six mullets all counterchanged. Sternfeld, Barony of The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 1989 (via the Middle): Gules, a mullet within and conjoined to five mullets in annulo, the whole within and conjoined to a bordure Or, semy of mullets of four points azure. Talena of Western Seas The following device associated with this name was registered in December of 1989 (via Caid): Sable, a mullet within the horns of a decrescent argent, all within a bordure argent, semy of leaves vert. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Mon Aug 23 16:02:53 1999 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:02:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: At 05:40 PM 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hello again, > >In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again >with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if >you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. > >The blazon is : > >Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > >This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) >and is very visually distinctive. I found the devices listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Or". I'm wondering if Liriel's is a conflict since it is only the addition of the fox. And under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is: Seitse Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in November of 1973: Vert, mulletty pierced argent. Which would conflict with "Azure, mulletty argent", right? I really wish we could search on "mulletty". By the way, I like the device. Looks way cool. Hopefully someone with better armory skills than mine can offer suggestions on how to clear any conflicts. Maybe a simple field division with "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the other? Mari - ----------------------------------------------- Sternfeld, Barony of The following device associated with this name was registered in July of 1983 (via the Middle): Azure, mulletty of four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath vert. Liriel Correll of Tuatha Keep The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 1988 (via Calontir): Azure, mulletty, a fox salient Or. James Darkstar The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 1983 (via Atenveldt): Azure, mulletty, on a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base throughout sable. Madeleine la Reveuse Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in February of 1980: Azure, mullety Or, a tower argent within a bordure Or. Mariah Stern The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1988 (via the Middle): Azure, mullety Or, in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or. Ioannes Nikaias The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1981 (via Atlantia): Azure, mullety of eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book argent bound sable and in base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps respectant Or. Richard of Castle North The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1990 (via Caid): Azure, mullety of four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister argent. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Mon Aug 23 16:05:12 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:05:12 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will > soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to > participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready > and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we > will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a > hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? > Okay, I agree with most of what's been said; however, I believe if you want to teach more people that a basic heraldry class should be taught in each region at least once a year. Almost every other office is requiring the regional officers to teach a class on the basics to run the office in their region. Some are requiring the classes to be taught at least once a quarter. I think that we should have a regional symposium in each region at least once a year. Also the Book of the Herald should be redone and made as simple as possible. I know the knowledge is out there, it just seems like no one has gotten the knowledge together and presented it as often as possible. I don't mean to say that anyone isn't doing the job or has done a bad job. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 16:13:20 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:13:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2 Content-Type: text/plain *grumbles moving back to the O&A* I completely forgot about mullety as a descriptive word. Checking it again folks, sorry. Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen O'Brien [SMTP:kobrien at bmc.com] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets > > At 05:40 PM 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello again, > > > >In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance > again > >with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course > if > >you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as > well. > > > >The blazon is : > > > >Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > > >This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block > print) > >and is very visually distinctive. > > I found the devices listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under > "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Or". I'm wondering if Liriel's is a > conflict since it is only the addition of the fox. > > And under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is: > Seitse > Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were > registered in November of 1973: > Vert, mulletty pierced argent. > > Which would conflict with "Azure, mulletty argent", right? > > I really wish we could search on "mulletty". By the way, I like the > device. Looks way cool. Hopefully someone with better armory skills than > mine can offer suggestions on how to clear any conflicts. Maybe a simple > field division with "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the > other? > > Mari > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Sternfeld, Barony of > The following device associated with this name was registered in July of > 1983 (via the Middle): > Azure, mulletty of four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath > vert. > > Liriel Correll of Tuatha Keep > The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of > 1988 (via Calontir): > Azure, mulletty, a fox salient Or. > > James Darkstar > The following device associated with this name was registered in March of > 1983 (via Atenveldt): > Azure, mulletty, on a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base > throughout sable. > > Madeleine la Reveuse > Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were > registered in February of 1980: > Azure, mullety Or, a tower argent within a bordure Or. > > Mariah Stern > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of > 1988 (via the Middle): > Azure, mullety Or, in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or. > > Ioannes Nikaias > The following device associated with this name was registered in January > of > 1981 (via Atlantia): > Azure, mullety of eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book > argent > bound sable and in base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps > respectant Or. > > Richard of Castle North > The following device associated with this name was registered in October > of > 1990 (via Caid): > Azure, mullety of four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister > argent. > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets

*grumbles moving = back to the O&A*

I completely forgot = about mullety as a descriptive word.

Checking it again = folks, sorry.

Timothy

-----Original Message-----
From:   Kathleen O'Brien [SMTP:kobrien at bmc.com]
Sent:   Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 PM
To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Semy of = Mullets

At 05:40 PM = 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello = again,
>
>In my eternal = search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again
>with conflict = checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if
>you see some = sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well.
>
>The blazon is = :
>
>Azure, a semy = of mullets argent.
>
>This device has = a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print)
>and is very = visually distinctive.

I found the devices = listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under
"Mullet - = Uncharged - 4 or more - Or".  I'm wondering if Liriel's is = a
conflict since it = is only the addition of the fox.

And under = "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is:
Seitse
Either the name or = the following device associated it (or both) were
registered in = November of 1973:
Vert, mulletty = pierced argent.

Which would conflict = with "Azure, mulletty argent", right?  

I really wish we = could search on "mulletty".  By the way, I like = the
device.  Looks = way cool.  Hopefully someone with better armory skills than
mine can offer = suggestions on how to clear any conflicts.  Maybe a simple
field division with = "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the = other?

Mari

-----------------------------------------------

Sternfeld, Barony = of
The following = device associated with this name was registered in July of
1983 (via the = Middle):
Azure, mulletty of = four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath vert.

Liriel Correll of = Tuatha Keep
The following badge = associated with this name was registered in August of
1988 (via = Calontir):
Azure, mulletty, a = fox salient Or.

James = Darkstar
The following = device associated with this name was registered in March of
1983 (via = Atenveldt):
Azure, mulletty, on = a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base
throughout = sable.

Madeleine la = Reveuse
Either the name or = the following device associated it (or both) were
registered in = February of 1980:
Azure, mullety Or, = a tower argent within a bordure Or.

Mariah Stern
The following = device associated with this name was registered in May of
1988 (via the = Middle):
Azure, mullety Or, = in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or.

Ioannes = Nikaias
The following = device associated with this name was registered in January of
1981 (via = Atlantia):
Azure, mullety of = eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book argent
bound sable and in = base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps
respectant = Or.

Richard of Castle = North
The following = device associated with this name was registered in October of
1990 (via = Caid):
Azure, mullety of = four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister argent.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:12:50 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. I'm a bit surprised nobody's noticed Somalia, "Azure, a mullet argent" (9/95). One CD for number. "Semy" is a group of charges, which means it gets all the CDs a charge group can get. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:15:03 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:15:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: By the way, there's a slight error in the proposed blazon > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. It should be Azure semy of mullets argent. (commas are almost always optional in blazons, but I don't recall seeing them after a tincture and before "semy"). Alternately, since mullets have their own special semy-word, you could do Azure mullety argent. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:16:11 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:16:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Eirik wrote: > Also the Book of the Herald should be redone Sorry. That's a retirement project for former Star Principal Heralds. Daniel "at which point they Pass Beyond The Rim" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 23 18:55:47 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:55:47 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: Clarification of submissions in August Gazette Message-ID: - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have received extra information from the branch herald in Brad Leah about two submissions from that branch that are in ILoI0899. For the use of commenters I forward the following: > For Hans Faust, The culture and time is German in the early 1500s > For Monica de la Cueva, it is Spanish 1500s. I guess I should have > mentioned something about her having the name of a Saint stemming from the > custom of Catholics being named after Saints. Please pass this on to any commenters who are not on the list. With thanks for your help, Kathri Asterisk kathri at aol.com - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BSmif76308 at aol.com From: BSmif76308 at aol.com Full-name: BSmif76308 Message-ID: <34b0f06f.24f326ea at aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:36:26 EDT Subject: Clarification To: Kathri at aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Greetings from the humble shire of Brad Leah, I was looking at the August Gazette and I saw where I forget to specify Language/Culture on two entries. For Hans Faust, The culture and time is German in the early 1500s For Monica de la Cueva, it is Spanish 1500s. I guess I should have mentioned something about her having the name of a Saint stemming from the custom of Catholics being named a Saints. If you have any other questions please let me know. Hans Faunst Herald of Brad Leah mka Brent Smith - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Mon Aug 23 15:20:09 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:20:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of a submission Message-ID: Jodi McMaster wrote: > The one I'm trying to track is ILoI 0399, Cathlin Sommerfield, > resubmitted badge. Anyone know where it is in the pipeline? As per the June 1999 AG, it passed kingdom and is on its way to Laurel. - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 19:52:24 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > I'm a bit surprised nobody's noticed Somalia, "Azure, a mullet argent" > (9/95). One CD for number. > > "Semy" is a group of charges, which means it gets all the CDs a charge > group can get. What I'm surprised is that no one has mentioned X.2. Most of the examples of mullety armory have had a completely different primary charge. I reiterate: X.1. Addition of Primary Charges - Armory does not conflict with any protected armory that adds or removes the primary charge group. Most cadency systems did not involve addition or deletion of the primary charge group, so this automatically creates an independent design. For example, Argent, two mullets gules does not conflict with Argent, a pale between two mullets gules, and Vert, a lion rampant Or and a chief indented argent does not conflict with Vert, a chief indented argent. So what you need to check for is *any* number of mullets as the primary charge. As Daniel noted above, Somalia is only one CD from the proposal. And yes, you betcha semy is a primary charge group when it's the only charges on the field. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Steafanmac at aol.com Mon Aug 23 21:47:54 1999 From: Steafanmac at aol.com (Steafanmac@aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:47:54 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check? Message-ID: Greetings all! Could I bother the College for a conflict check on the following blazons, please? 1) Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated argent between three towers argent masoned sable. 2) Azure platy. (With sincere apologies to Timothy of Glastonbury for the similarity.) 3) Quarterly sable and gules, a sea-horse argent. 4) Per fess argent and sable, a demi-horse issuant from the line of division sable. 5) (Fieldless) A griffin segreant azure. Best I can tell, all five are clear, but I'm still new at conflict checking with any accuracy. Any comment is appreciated. Thanks in advance for the help! In your service, Lord Stephen Macthomas Gate's Edge ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 00:07:44 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check? Message-ID: > 1) Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated argent between three towers > argent masoned sable. Against Grigorii Elisseyevich - December of 1995 (via Meridies): Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated between three mascles, a bordure argent. I see one CD for type change to secondaries, one CD for removal of the bordure. Possible CD for addition of field treatment to the towers but I cannot remember if rowers count like walls and therefore don't get difference for stonework representations (masoning). Clear either way. Nothing else comes even close. > 2) Azure platy. (With sincere apologies to Timothy of Glastonbury for the > similarity.) Clear. Cool. > 3) Quarterly sable and gules, a sea-horse argent. Against Eilonwy Andereth - August of 1979: Azure, a sea unicorn rampant reguardant argent. I think only one CD for the field tincture. I know regardant isn't worth any difference, and would very much hesitate to give difference between a sea-unicorn and a sea-horse. Conflict. > 4) Per fess argent and sable, a demi-horse issuant from the line of division > sable. Against No Mountain, Shire of - May of 1988 (via Calontir): Per fess embattled argent and vert, in chief a demi-horse rampant sable. One CD only for change to field. Conflict. > 5) (Fieldless) A griffin segreant azure. Against Brendan McEwen - December of 1996 (via Ansteorra): Per fess argent and gules, a griffin segreant azure. Only one CD for removal of field. Conflict. Sorry about all the bad news. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Tue Aug 24 10:41:31 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:41:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College Message-ID: Greetings! As most of you know, I am Timothy of Glastonbury, a deputy herald in the Barony of Elfsea. Elfsea will be holding it's Baronial College on January 22, 2000. I would like to use this College as an opportunity to hold a variety of classes on Heraldry within the Society. I was hoping that some of you fine folks on this list might wish to come and hold classes, especially with KWHS just a few short months later (you can dry run your classes :). I would be particularly interested in some basic classes in Conflict Checking, Period Arms, Ansteorran Awards 101, etc. I would also like to give the opportunity to run more 'advanced' classes. I have almost unlimited class space (I've prepared the Steward for up to 14 classes already), and have space for two hour classes etc. If you've never been to one of Elfsea's Baronial Colleges, they are usually held at the University of Texas at Arlington, in classrooms with power, tables, seating, and white/blackboards. If you would be interested, please reply to me. Ld. Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Tue Aug 24 11:03:45 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:03:45 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College Message-ID: Not really about the subject, but I would like to mention two things. (1) I met your brother at American Eurocopter Sunday night. I was just back from the Hawkwood Faire in tights and all. He recognized the garb and mentioned your name! Talk about coincidences. (2) The talk about not using HTML is primarily to you. In fact, yours is the only email I have seen on the lists that is in HTML. Unfortunately, a fair number of our people do not have email systems which will handle HTML properly. Oh, well. And thanks for doing the good work on the Baronial College! Caelin ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Tue Aug 24 11:16:30 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:16:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Inspired? Cartouche... Message-ID: Alright, I was inspired by Azure plattey, and since someone else has 'dibs' on it, I went looking for something other than mullets (insanely popular) that would look good to me. I found cartouches, which have all of 27 registered items that even include them. So ... How about the following badge and device combination? Device : Azure semy of cartouche argent. Badge : Azure a cartouche argent. The badge would conflict with the device, but otherwise appears clear (I've said that before though). The device is, again, clear as far as I can tell. Now, the only question I have outstanding is ... doesn't a cartouche look a lot like a bar? (just rounded ends). Is there a precedent out there about these conflicting or such? Timothy "I really think my brains engaged today" of Glastonbury ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Tue Aug 24 11:19:31 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:19:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College - oops Message-ID: Sorry, that was meant to be private. > Not really about the subject, but I would like to mention two things. Caelin ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 15:26:19 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Inspired? Cartouche... Message-ID: > Device : Azure semy of cartouche argent. > Badge : Azure a cartouche argent. > > The badge would conflict with the device, but otherwise appears clear (I've > said that before though). The device is, again, clear as far as I can tell. > > Now, the only question I have outstanding is ... doesn't a cartouche look a > lot like a bar? (just rounded ends). Is there a precedent out there about > these conflicting or such? Bars are fesswise, cartouches are palewise. I think billets are what you need to consider. And eggs. And taking into consideration all the above, both of these suggestions are clear. Azure semy of cartouches argent. Azure, a cartouche argent. Very nice. Oh, and a person always has implied permission to conflict with himself/herself, so that's fine, too. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Tue Aug 24 19:58:13 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:58:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: I've seen this before... Since the semy is a field treatment and not a true charge, this is period but rather rare (France ancient, Brittany, de Ferrers, Albret, etc.) Most, but not all, examples are territorial arms, not personal. Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for "not compatible with period practice." In the past most of the plain arms submissions were simply bounced for conflict with mundane heraldry. this avoided long involved technical discussions about how to conflict chargless devices. The other option was to ask for two differences. The most straight-forward interpretation of the rules would be to consider the mullety as the primary charge. Actually I like this. If you want help with period examples, see me. (Mableth). Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > > Hello again, > > In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again > with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if > you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. > > The blazon is : > > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) > and is very visually distinctive. > > My search shows NO entries within the O&A that use a semy of mullets, of any > color, as the Primary. Very popular seems to be a bordure semy of mullets, > but not the field. The only entries in the O&A with SEMY and MULLET are as > follows : > > Bruinnech Longstrider > The following device associated with this name was registered in September > of 1995 (via the East): > Azure, a drop spindle argent and a bordure argent semy of mullets of six > points azure. > > Denise MacMhathain > The following device associated with this name was registered in April of > 1985 (via Atenveldt): > Argent, semy of decrescents vert, a spider tergiant sable charged with a > mullet argent. > > James FitzGarth > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1985 > (via the Middle): > Vert, semy of buttercups Or, a griffin segreant, and on a chief argent, > three mullets azure. > > Joscelyn FitzHarry of Gillyflower > The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of > 1980 and converted to device and reblazoned in April of 1984 (via Caid): > Per fess arched azure, mulletty argent, and gules, semy of apples, a sun in > his splendour Or between the horns of an increscent moon argent. > > Kyneburh Boithuile > The following device associated with this name was registered in April of > 1999 (via Atlantia): > Per bend argent and azure, a mullet of eight points counterchanged, a > bordure sable semy of quatrefoils argent. > > Marie du Puy > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1994 > (via Calontir): > Argent, a sea-horse azure within a bordure sable, semy of mullets of four > points argent. > > Olwen ferch Rhys of Aberdovey > The following device associated with this name was registered in January of > 1994 (via the East): > Vert, semy of roses argent, a horse salient and on a chief Or three mullets > of six points vert. > > Reya nam Beanntan > The following device associated with this name was registered in October of > 1985 (via the East): > Per pale argent and sable, semy of crescents, within a bordure charged with > three mullets of eight points, all counterchanged. > > Robert Runewald > The following device associated with this name was registered in February of > 1998 (via Atlantia): > Per pale azure and Or, semy of arrows inverted, a crab, on a bordure six > mullets all counterchanged. > > Sternfeld, Barony of > The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of > 1989 (via the Middle): > Gules, a mullet within and conjoined to five mullets in annulo, the whole > within and conjoined to a bordure Or, semy of mullets of four points azure. > > Talena of Western Seas > The following device associated with this name was registered in December of > 1989 (via Caid): > Sable, a mullet within the horns of a decrescent argent, all within a > bordure argent, semy of leaves vert. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Tue Aug 24 20:45:54 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:45:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: mableth? / Amy & Bill Morris writeth something that beginneth in wrongness, proceedeth in its wrongness nigh all the length of its writing, and cometh to rightness only at its ending, whereat it is nigh wholly wrong. Sorry -- I was checking something in the KJV Deuteronomy and the style rubbed off on me. (Son of a gun -- sodomy *is* forbidden in there!) > Since the semy is a field treatment and not a true charge, In the SCA, this is false, as I wrote in a previous message. To quote the SCA CoA Glossary of Terms, Field Treatment. ... Field treatments do not include the ermined furs or strewn charges. ... Semy. An adjective meaning that something is strewn with identical charges. (It is from the French sem{e'}, the past participle of the verb semer 'to strew'.) A field Azure semy-de-lys Or is blue with a pattern of gold fleurs-de-lys on it. A bordure vert semy of rowels argent is green and is charged with several (at least five and usually eight) white rowels evenly spaced around it. The charges so used are called strewn charges. When placed directly on the field, strewn charges are considered a separate charge group from any other charges. Strewn charges may be considered the primary charge group if there are no other charge groups present or if the only other charge groups present are peripheral charge groups. When placed on another charge, strewn charges are considered a tertiary charge group. Strewn charges are not considered a field treatment. Ermine spots in an ermined tincture are not considered strewn charges; they are considered part of a separate tincture. See also: Ermined Tinctures, Field Treatment, Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group, Tertiary Charge Group. Outside the SCA, I'm not sure they use the concept of "field treatment". Rouland? > this is period but rather rare (France ancient, Brittany, de > Ferrers, Albret, etc.) I don't have _Anglo-Norman Armory II_ to hand, but as best I recall it's not particularly rare at all even in the earliest days. Semy of crosses [crosslet], -de-lys, and of mullets are the examples I remember. > Most, but not all, examples are territorial arms, not personal. How would you tell whether the arms of a landed lord are "territorial" or "personal"? I had not previously considered that there might be differences in armorial style between landed folk and non-landed folk in the same land in the same time, but that was an oversight on my part. Nevertheless, given the general tendency to ape one's betters in the Middle Ages, I'd be moderately surprised to see significant differences. What evidence do you have concerning this subject? > Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for > "not compatible with period practice." Please cite one Laurel return since 1990 that would not have been boinged had there been a charge. I suspect that there have been none such since Karina, but I've not looked at Baldwin, Wilhelm, or Alison LoARs to know how they worked. > In the past most of the plain arms submissions were simply bounced for > conflict with mundane heraldry. this avoided long involved technical > discussions about how to conflict chargless devices. The other option > was to ask for two differences. Since the new rules from around 1990, there have been no technical discussions about how to conflict-check field-only armory (except for some unfortunate laxness in the current wording). 2 CDs apply to field-only armory just like any other armory, as does RfS X.1. RfS X.4.a.ii originally covered field-only armory, and now covers field-primary (field-only, with at most one of an enumerated set of uncharged peripheral charges). X.4.a.ii gives extra CDs in field-primary cases. That was, in fact, how my current arms were conflict-checked and passed: "Per chevron embattled argent and azure", 9/94. Since the Modest Proposal in 12/94, there have been fewer conflict calls versus simple non-SCA armory. The current X.4.a.ii has improved conflict-checking substantially for field-primary armory. I had to do several pages of charts based on 17 or so categories of Papworth's. > The most straight-forward interpretation of the rules would be to > consider the mullety as the primary charge. (That would contradict your initial statement that it was a field treatment; a field treatment is part of the tincture and hence not a charge.) As noted in the Glossary quote, and as noted in a Bruce precedent quoted in a previous message (Alanna? I don't recall), that's indeed the interpretation under the rules. > Actually I like this. I agree with this sentiment. Pity about the conflict. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Tue Aug 24 21:29:20 1999 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee & Sosha) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:29:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Talk to me at Stargate Baronial. I will be turning over a rough draft to Francois then. Donal "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > Eirik wrote: > > Also the Book of the Herald should be redone > > Sorry. That's a retirement project for former Star Principal Heralds. > > Daniel "at which point they Pass Beyond The Rim" de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Wed Aug 25 07:05:24 1999 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:05:24 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > > Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for > > "not compatible with period practice." > > Please cite one Laurel return since 1990 that would not have been > boinged had there been a charge. I suspect that there have been none > such since Karina, but I've not looked at Baldwin, Wilhelm, or Alison > LoARs to know how they worked. I can cite one fairly recent, via An Tir: Gules ermined Or. Laurel ruled that that was a plain tincture, and we don't register plain tinctures. The client added an argent label, and that cleared the problem. - -Aryanhwy - ------------------------------------------------ Sara L. Friedemann sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu - ------------------------------------------------ "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" --Yeats - ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From timothy_of_glastonbury at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 07:46:19 1999 From: timothy_of_glastonbury at yahoo.com (Timothy Rayburn) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: > Bars are fesswise, cartouches are palewise. I think billets are what > you > need to consider. And eggs. And taking into consideration all the > above, > both of these suggestions are clear. > Azure semy of cartouches argent. > Azure, a cartouche argent. > Very nice. Oh, and a person always has implied permission to conflict > with > himself/herself, so that's fine, too. > > - Teceangl Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. Timothy of Glastonbury >From his account that won't spam with HTML/MIME/etc garbage. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 25 08:47:37 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:47:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: Quite so, Anyanhwy. I had forgotten about plain tinctures not being registered or protected. However, the return was not for non-period style: anyone with _Simple Heraldry Cheerfully Illustrated_ can, if I remember aright, find the page whith the plain-tinctured shields and their bearers in Britain. For that matter, there's Brittany, "Ermine". Despite my infelicitous challange -- thank you Aryanhwy and Tecangl for the counter-examples -- field-only armory is not per se returned on NPS grounds, and I don't know of a time when it was. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Wed Aug 25 15:23:27 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:23:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: An Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200 would blazon in Anglo-Norman. You can borrow My copies of 'Early Blazon" and 'Eight Thirteenth-Century Rolls of Arms in French and Anglo-Norman Blazon" if you like. I can also loan you five of the Scottish Heraldry Society Rolls of Arms reprints (modern English translations). I opened Collins Roll (1296?) at random and found 3 field only arms in the first three pages, plus one with only a bordure. I will warn you that reading primary sources may disillusion you about SCA Heraldry. For example number 610, per chevron argent and ermine, Brianus Sandford. Timothy Rayburn wrote: > > > Bars... a fine, too. > > > > - Teceangl > > Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : > > In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish > (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be > determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple > rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, > including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. > > Timothy of Glastonbury > >From his account that won't spam with HTML/MIME/etc garbage. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Aug 25 16:39:16 1999 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:39:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: At 10:45 PM 8/24/99 -0500, Daniel wrote: >I don't have _Anglo-Norman Armory II_ to hand, but as best I recall >it's not particularly rare at all even in the earliest days. I took a quick look through A-N II and found a dozen or so devices connected with individuals that have strewn charges as their primaries. There were a very large number of semy fields, but most had an ordinary on them. Some examples: John Darcy, Argent semy of roses gules Robert Mortimer, Barry or and vert, semy-de-lis counterchanged Other interesting tidbits: Strewn items tended towards the simple and common (billety, bezanty, semy-de-lys, crusilly), but some were more complex, including several examples of nine or ten martlets that we might well call semy of martlets. The most interesting thing I noticed is that ordinaries with strewn charges were fairly common, not just the bordures we see a lot in the SCA but also fesses, pales, and chevronels (!). Based on this, I'd say that Timothy's proposed device (both versions) is certainly based on a period, although not common, practice. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 26 03:09:44 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: > > Azure semy of cartouches argent. > > Azure, a cartouche argent. > Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : > > In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish > (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be > determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple > rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, > including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. That early, it would most likely be billets. They were quite popular in the rolls which are found in Foster's, and a lovely simple charge. The simplicity and the semy both smack of excellent period style, BTW. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Sun Aug 29 15:52:16 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:52:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is an English version of Bahlow's "Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt"? If so, citation please. - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From aforsyth at uh.edu Mon Aug 30 07:08:30 1999 From: aforsyth at uh.edu (Amy Forsyth) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:08:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Sorry, There's only two editions listed in OCLC, both German (1965 and 1985). However, there is: Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 ISBN: 0924119357 It's supposed to have maps. It looks like Rice Univ. may have it. ~Addy At 05:52 PM 8/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know if there is an English version of Bahlow's "Deutschland >Geographiche Namenwelt"? If so, citation please. > >--Perronnelle > >-- >The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody >appreciates how difficult it was. > > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 30 08:53:53 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:53:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: > translated by Edda Gentry ... > Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, That's the Englished Bahlow. Thanks! DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Mon Aug 30 10:10:03 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:10:03 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Amy Forsyth wrote: > There's only two editions listed in OCLC, both German (1965 and 1985). > > However, there is: > > Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of > German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an > introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max > Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- > Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 > ISBN: 0924119357 Bahlow wrote more than one book. I'm looking for an English version of "Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt" not "Deutsches Namenlexikon" (which is reprinting in English in November). Thanks, - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From pcrandal at flash.net Mon Aug 30 15:47:54 1999 From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:47:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Amy Forsyth wrote: > However, there is: > > Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of > German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an > introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max > Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- > Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 > ISBN: 0924119357 Barnes & Noble has it: Dictionary of German Names Hans Bahlow Edda Gentry (Translator) Retail Price: $22.95 Our Price: $18.36 You Save: $4.59 (20%) Ships 3-5 weeks Format: Paperback ISBN: 0924119373 Publisher: Univ of Wisconsin Pr Pub. Date: April 1999 Edition Desc: 2ND REV ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 2 05:50:58 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - My Recent Arms Submission (fwd) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/31/99 12:09:51 AM Central Daylight Time, Daniel de Lincolia writes about Mistress Gunnora Hallakarva's device: > Can we maybe sic the nice heraldic artist on this one? Ummm.... Daniel, just which of our scant supply of overworked, under-appreciated heraldic artists do you consider "the nice" one? Seriously, this good peer has cause for complaint. Reading through her file reveals a saga worthy of the best skald. Lacking poetry, I will try to fill in with practicality. Yes, the College of Heralds can help get this device redrawn and resubmitted with as little trouble as possible to this admirably persistant submitter. I'm going to address the details of the resubmission with the lady privately. Mistress Gunnora, please give me a couple of days to contact you with specifics; I need to make some phone calls and work up a complete offer and schedule. Either Star or I will address her general suggestions, several of which are under consideration or in the process of implementation. Watch this space for future developments! In service to the heralds and submitters of Ansteorra, Kathri, Asterisk Herald In-kingdom Submissions Processing ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 2 21:24:40 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:24:40 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: I need to know whether you find the following device clear of conflict: Per fess gules and azure, a catamount passant and a kestrel maintaining a garb Or Response by August 20 1999 would be appreciated. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 3 00:47:08 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: > Per fess gules and azure, a catamount passant and a kestrel maintaining a > garb Or As per the online Ordinary on 8/2/99, it's clear. - - Teceangl - -- What lies at the bottom of the ocean and twitches? A nervous wreck. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From whitemage at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 3 01:17:12 1999 From: whitemage at worldnet.att.net (James Hanke) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:17:12 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It check out alright. Didn't found one thing that would conflict with it within the O and A. Ld Morgan MacAlpin - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It check out alright.  Didn't found one thing that would conflict with it within the O and A.

Ld Morgan MacAlpin - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Tue Aug 3 11:01:59 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:01:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Graveships Message-ID: I'm creating an names index from a book of period church court records. Talan is helping me with some of the entries. Here's one of his replies that I found interesting. So, how to create a branch type? :-) - --Perronnelle Brian M. Scott wrote: > > The graveship of Thorne for concealment of these fines > > > What is "Thorne"? > > According to the OED, in Yorkshire a graveship was a district, either > a subdivision of a large parish or a collection of several small > parishes, so called because it was at some point administered by a > grave or collection of graves. A grave was an administrative > official elected by the inhabitants of a township. It would seem > that here must be the name of the graveship, i.e., > essentially a place-name. (Ekwall confirms that there is a Thorne in > the West Riding.) > > Talan ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 4 09:32:50 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:32:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC Content-Type: text/plain Greetings all, I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I proceed. Device : Azure, a pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent and sable. (I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this right. The idea is three stars white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue field with a white pale.) Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable. The badge seems to good to be true, but by all examinations I can make I'm clear. The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's different from the other registered mullets due to the rules regarding the number of points. I would appreciate help with this, as I intend to register them within the month and would hate to look dumb and have my own arms come back in conflict. Timothy of Glastonbury - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict Check

Greetings = all,

I would really = appreciate it if someone would check the following two items (a device = and a badge) for conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them = clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed.

Device : Azure, a = pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent = and sable.
(I am not 100% = positive I've blazoned this right.  The idea is three stars = white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue field = with a white pale.)

Badge : (Fieldless) = A mullet sable.

The badge seems to = good to be true, but by all examinations I can make I'm clear.  = The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's = different from the other registered mullets due to the rules regarding = the number of points.

I would appreciate = help with this, as I intend to register them within the month and would = hate to look dumb and have my own arms come back in = conflict.

Timothy of = Glastonbury


- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From superboy at lsh.org Wed Aug 4 10:22:00 1999 From: superboy at lsh.org (R. Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:22:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following = two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can = and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict = Check

I would really = appreciate it if=20 someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) = for=20 conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them clear of = conflict, but=20 I want to be certain before I proceed.

 

- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From superboy at lsh.org Wed Aug 4 10:30:26 1999 From: superboy at lsh.org (R. Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:30:26 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guh. Please accept my apologies and my SINCERE HATRED OF OUTLOOK EXPRESS at = times. As I was trying to say: I am not a wizard of conflict checks (yet, anyway), but they both look = clear. I love the badge; you just don't see enough of that kind of = thing (which is why there don't seem to be any conflicts, I guess). As for the blazon of the device, hmm. I envision what you want. I look = forward to a more expert book herald telling us the right way (or that = might well be it). While I'm in the neighborhood, I'm in the same position as good Timothy; = I intend to register the following. The first one is slightly controversial, = perhaps, and I'd enjoy (er, is that the word?) commentary as well. Device: Grilled gules and Or, on a bend argent a garden rose azure slipped and = leaved proper. Badge: (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. (You see why I liked Timothy's proposed badge, hee.) Notice my assumptions: (1) that grillage will fly, despite being totally = and utterly unused in the SCA as far as I can tell. It is in the picdic = as I recall. I could of course go fretty but I like grillage. :) (2) = that garden rose is a CD from the heraldic rose of Tudor fame. Thoughts? Sorry for hijacking my response to you, Timothy. :) Tighearnach mac Morgain Shire of Mooneschadowe -----Original Message----- From: Rayburn, Timothy To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:34 AM Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check =20 =20 Greetings all,=20 I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following = two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can = and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed. Device : Azure, a pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets = counterchanged argent and sable. (I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this right. The idea is three = stars white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue = field with a white pale.) Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable.=20 The badge seems to good to be true, but by all examinations I can = make I'm clear. The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, = and it's different from the other registered mullets due to the rules = regarding the number of points. I would appreciate help with this, as I intend to register them = within the month and would hate to look dumb and have my own arms come = back in conflict. Timothy of Glastonbury=20 =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict = Check
Guh.
 
Please accept my apologies and my SINCERE HATRED OF = OUTLOOK=20 EXPRESS at times.
 
As I was trying to say:
 
I am not a wizard of conflict checks (yet, anyway), = but they=20 both look clear.  I love the badge; you just don't see enough of = that kind=20 of thing (which is why there don't seem to be any conflicts, I=20 guess).
 
As for the blazon of the device, hmm.  I = envision what=20 you want.  I look forward to a more expert book herald telling us = the right=20 way (or that might well be it).
 
While I'm in the neighborhood, I'm in the same = position as=20 good Timothy; I intend
to register the following.  The first one is = slightly=20 controversial, perhaps, and I'd
enjoy (er, is that the word?) commentary as = well.
 
Device:
Grilled gules and Or, on a bend argent a garden rose = azure=20 slipped and leaved proper.
 
Badge:
(Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved = proper=20 bendwise.
 
(You see why I liked Timothy's proposed badge,=20 hee.)
 
Notice my assumptions: (1) that grillage will fly, = despite=20 being totally and utterly unused in the SCA as far as I can tell.  = It is in=20 the picdic as I recall.  I could of course go fretty but I like = grillage.=20 :) (2) that garden rose is a CD from the heraldic
rose of Tudor fame.
 
Thoughts?  Sorry for hijacking my response to = you,=20 Timothy. :)
 
Tighearnach mac Morgain
Shire of Mooneschadowe
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Rayburn, Timothy <TRayburn at insurdata.com>
= To:=20 'heralds at ansteorra.org'=20 <heralds at Ansteorra.ORG>
Date:=20 Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:34 AM
Subject: ANSTHRLD = - -=20 Personal Conflict Check

Greetings = all,

I would really = appreciate it if=20 someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) = for=20 conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them clear of = conflict, but=20 I want to be certain before I proceed.

Device : Azure, a = pale argent and=20 in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent and=20 sable.
(I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this = right. =20 The idea is three stars white-black-white in a raised chevron = formation=20 across a blue field with a white pale.)

Badge : (Fieldless) A = mullet=20 sable.

The badge seems to = good to be true,=20 but by all examinations I can make I'm clear.  The automatic CD = for=20 Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's different from the other=20 registered mullets due to the rules regarding the number of=20 points.

I would appreciate = help with this,=20 as I intend to register them within the month and would hate to look = dumb=20 and have my own arms come back in conflict.

Timothy of = Glastonbury =


- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 11:42:30 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:42:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: Please turn off MIME and HTML copies of your messages -- please just send plain text. > Grilled gules and Or Not a well-formed blazon fragment. Grillage is a charge on a field (like a fret / fretty), so it'd have to be "Gules grillage Or" or "Or grillage gules". It has been registered only once, for the arms of Forestgate. I see no reason why it would not be registerable > (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. Since garden roses aren't period, can I convince you to go with a normal heraldic rose? Alys of the Midnight Rose, "Or, a rose slipped and leaved azure". 1 CD for fieldless. Garden roses are treated in the SCA as artistic variants of heraldic roses. Slipping and leaving is not a CD, although it is blazonable. I don't know that "bendwise" would apply to the rose, and I couldn't tell if a garden rose were rotated anyway. Conflict. I'm not sure what Johnathan [sic!] Crusadene Whitewolf's rose looks like in "Sable, a rose azure imbrued gules". It has drops of blood somehow, but it's not clear to me that it's a semy of gouts (which would be a CD) or just a few drops dangling from petals (which probably wouldn't be). > Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable. There is a precedent calling conflict between a four-pointed mullet and a compass star (because the little points are, well, little) so this might conflict with the Ansteorran Chronicler's badge, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points distilling gouttes". Barn and Kat and the then-chronicler gave permission for this to be released, but I didn't follow up on it. It'd open up some heraldic space if it were done. I don't currently have my mullet-difference research to hand; I'll get back to y'all on point-counting. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 11:57:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:57:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: I found my notes on mullet differences. In brief, I think "multi-pointed" means "more points than usual". Mullet and estoile-like critters are not substantially different, so neither X.2 nor X.4.j.ii applies to such differences. Quick summary of common cases: A == standard mullets B == standard estoiles C == multi-pointed mullets like suns and compass stars A & B, B & C, and A & C each have CDs from each other. Step away from those patterns and the CD tends to shatter. Cs don't have CDs from each other. A summary table from the precedents below [here snipped]: Mullet of 3 points: illegal of 4 points versus caltrop: no CD (identical) compass star: no CD (long rays in same places) mullet of 5 points: no CD of 5 points versus estoile: CD sun: CD mullet of 6 points: no CD mullet of 7 points: no CD mullet of 8 points: CD compass star: CD spur rowels versus estoiles: CD (pierced mullets) multipointed versus sun: no CD of 8 points versus sun: no CD mullet of 5 gtr & 5 lsr: no CD (10 pointed mullet) estoile: CD estoile of 7 rays: no CD compass star versus sun: no CD ("multi-pointed mullet") versus estoile: CD Estoile of 5 rays versus estoile of 8 rays: no CD of 6 rays versus sun: CD of 8 rays versus sun: no CD multipointed versus sun: no CD Comet == estoile with a tail, hence a variant estoile Since there's no CD for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor Leonard, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a goutte.". 1 CD for fieldless, but since hers is tinctureless you can't get any other tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD. Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed) mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12) On the other hand, one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD between a compass star and a mullet of four points was that neither is period, so maybe it would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's badge. Daniel "catch a falling star" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 4 12:20:06 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12 Content-Type: text/plain Daniel, Perhaps I simply do not understand what is meant by "distilling a goutte". I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete removal of would net me another CD. Would you mind explaining this? Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: tmcd at jump.net [SMTP:tmcd at jump.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:57 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check > Since there's no CD for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor > Leonard, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a > goutte.". 1 CD for fieldless, but since hers is tinctureless you > can't get any other tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD. > > Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between > mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed) > mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12) > > On the other hand, one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD > between a compass star and a mullet of four points was that neither is > period, so maybe it would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's > badge. > > Daniel "catch a falling star" de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check

Daniel,

Perhaps I simply do = not understand what is meant by "distilling a goutte".  = I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete removal of = would net me another CD.  Would you mind explaining = this?

Timothy

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   tmcd at jump.net [SMTP:tmcd at jump.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:57 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict = Check =20
    Since there's no CD = for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor
    Leonard, = "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a
    goutte.".  1 CD for fieldless, but since hers = is tinctureless you
    can't get any other = tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD.

        = Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between
        = mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed)
        = mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12)

    On the other hand, = one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD
    between a compass = star and a mullet of four points was that neither is
    period, so maybe it = would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's
    badge.

    Daniel "catch a = falling star" de Lincolia
    --
             &nb= sp;          *** NEW = PERSONAL ADDRESS ***
    Tim McDaniel is = tmcd at jump.net; if that fail,
        = tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts.
        = tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away.
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 12:47:12 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:47:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: Timothy wrote, > Perhaps I simply do not understand what is meant by "distilling a > goutte". I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete > removal of would net me another CD. Would you mind explaining this? "Distilling a gout" is with a drop dangling from some projection or otherwise on the edge. It thus counts as a maintained charge and worth no CD. That is a rather long-standing precedent. For more philosophy: it may be objected that if such a charge be simply moved inward, it would become a tertiary and worth a difference, even though it change not at all in size, color, et cetera. Nevertheless, there is (I gather) period evidence that maintained charges were not, well, maintained: that arms for the same person might or might not be shown with the maintained charge -- but I presume that such has not been shewn for tertiaries. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 14:37:21 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:37:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: [His personal mail copied to the list with permission. My reply will be in the next message.] From: "R. Smith" [...] >> Grilled gules and Or > >Not a well-formed blazon fragment. Grillage is a charge on a field >(like a fret / fretty), so it'd have to be "Gules grillage Or" or "Or >grillage gules". Yes, I knew better but had my brain half-engaged. Thanks. Gules grillage Or is indeed what I meant. >It has been registered only once, for the arms of Forestgate. I see >no reason why it would not be registerable Good, good. >> (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. > >Since garden roses aren't period, can I convince you to go with a >normal heraldic rose? Yes; you just did. :) >Alys of the Midnight Rose, "Or, a rose slipped and leaved azure". 1 >CD for fieldless. Garden roses are treated in the SCA as artistic >variants of heraldic roses. Slipping and leaving is not a CD, >although it is blazonable. I don't know that "bendwise" would apply >to the rose, and I couldn't tell if a garden rose were rotated >anyway. Conflict. > >I'm not sure what Johnathan [sic!] Crusadene Whitewolf's rose looks >like in "Sable, a rose azure imbrued gules". It has drops of blood >somehow, but it's not clear to me that it's a semy of gouts (which >would be a CD) or just a few drops dangling from petals (which >probably wouldn't be). My reworked ideas, and if you would take a moment to comment on them I would be extremely grateful (actually, I'm already quite grateful for your help): Device: Gules grillage Or, on a bend argent three roses purpure. Badge: (Fieldless) In bend three roses purpure. My lady quite insightfully asked how the heck you tell that they are in bend with no point of reference. My goal here is simply to get the suckers in a line, whereas "(Fieldless) Three roses purpure" would get me two and one, if I recall correctly. Any help for the hapless? Thanks already, Tighearnach mac Morgain Shire of Mooneschadowe ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 14:43:17 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:43:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: "R. Smith" wrote: ... > Device: > > Gules grillage Or, on a bend argent three roses purpure. I don't know that grillage was used in period. Fretty certainly was, even from an early date. Purpure was quite rare, only a little common in Iberia -- 8%, I think? Both of them are registerable, though. The primary charge is the grill. The bend overall is an overall charge. > Badge: > > (Fieldless) In bend three roses purpure. Insta-boing, I'm afraid. Fieldless badges cannot have disconnected charges. (A pawprint and an ermine spot count as connected, by the way.) If you redesign to have an overall charge on a fieldless badge, please be aware that it is allowed to be done only if the area of intersection is small, like a spear and a sword. Since overall charges on badges were very rare at best in period, I advise against it if possible. > My lady quite insightfully asked how the heck you tell that they are > in bend with no point of reference. You have as much of a frame of reference as any other piece of armory. If you were to display "Gules, a fess Or" on a roundel, lozenge, delf, or some such, you'd have the same problems, or lack of them. I bear "A mascle gules" as a badge; whatever I put it on defines top-and-down to distinguish it from "A delf voided gules". Daniel <> de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 5 18:14:46 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:14:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: (Sorry for the duplication, Tangwystyl, AElfwyn, et al.) Yes, it's stunt documentation (or stunt shootdown, I suspect). Yes, I would love a quick turnaround; if, as I suspect, the name is utterly unusable, I'd like to stop the write-in campaign ASAP. Indeed, I'm sorry for asking under such conditions. This came across the Ansteorran Southern Regional list just now. The vote he's referring to is a preference ballot for a southern regional name, probably to thereby become the frontrunner for a southern principality name if-and-when. "James Crouchet" wrote, on southern at Ansteorra.ORG at Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0500, with subject Late Entry: > Hello. Don Dor? here. > > A small group of Southerners, including me, were recently standing > around complaining that the suggested names for this region were > bad, twinky, un-period, and generally unacceptable. (Un-period?!? Grrrr! Arrrg! We cut it off at the 3-out-of-5-star periodness-rating level. One name is a period town in Italy!) > name that really seemed to work. It followed a period naming > practice, (which of course he didn't describe) > it avoided the compound noun twink (like "Lion's Liver"), actually > means something to the Southern Region AND connects us to Ansteorra. > It would even serve well as a name for a principality or kingdom, > should that ever be an issue. Noble heraldry would be easy to > design for this name. What's more, it is short, plain English and > easily pronounceable. ... > In particular, we got Baroness Mari's ok (which is important, > considering the name). > > What is the name? Lioness. Bjornsborg's "Lioness" tourney is past, That annual tourney is usually spelled "Lyonesse". It is a high-persona event. In it, Lyonesse is said to rise from the sea for a few days. The Baroness of Bjornsborg (in the center of the southern region) is called Lady Lyonesse for the duration and is the hostess. There is fighting at the barrier, I believe. I understand that there are plenty of examples of period people in tourneys pretending to be knights of the Round Table and other worthies (or Worthies), so this sounds like a fine period tourney notion to me. It is pronounced here as "LEE ahn ess" or "LEE ah ness" -- hard for me to tell. I assume they want the English word "Lioness". So: I gather that Lyonesse is a mythical sunken island somewhere off Britain, so an attempted registration of Lyonesse would therefore bounce by Admin Handbook III.A.6, Names of Significant Geographical Locations from Literary Sources. Is it at all likely that period people would have named a real place Lyonesse, Atlantis, or such? (Any other examples come to mind of lands believed lost by period people?) If "Lioness", I have the usual stunt request: can anyone think of a language + culture + time where that might be a place-name? Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 5 21:30:08 1999 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:30:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: Apologies, I haven't been keeping up, but what happened to "Levgorod" for the southern region, which I thought sounded rather cool (and like a place, not a species)? - --Alisandre, who's been off having babies and not paying much attention Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > (Sorry for the duplication, Tangwystyl, AElfwyn, et al.) > > Yes, it's stunt documentation (or stunt shootdown, I suspect). > Yes, I would love a quick turnaround; if, as I suspect, the name is > utterly unusable, I'd like to stop the write-in campaign ASAP. > Indeed, I'm sorry for asking under such conditions. > > This came across the Ansteorran Southern Regional list just now. The > vote he's referring to is a preference ballot for a southern regional > name, probably to thereby become the frontrunner for a southern > principality name if-and-when. > > "James Crouchet" wrote, on southern at Ansteorra.ORG at Thu, > 5 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0500, with subject Late Entry: > > Hello. Don Dor? here. > > > > A small group of Southerners, including me, were recently standing > > around complaining that the suggested names for this region were > > bad, twinky, un-period, and generally unacceptable. > > (Un-period?!? Grrrr! Arrrg! We cut it off at the 3-out-of-5-star > periodness-rating level. One name is a period town in Italy!) > > > name that really seemed to work. It followed a period naming > > practice, > > (which of course he didn't describe) > > > it avoided the compound noun twink (like "Lion's Liver"), actually > > means something to the Southern Region AND connects us to Ansteorra. > > It would even serve well as a name for a principality or kingdom, > > should that ever be an issue. Noble heraldry would be easy to > > design for this name. What's more, it is short, plain English and > > easily pronounceable. > ... > > In particular, we got Baroness Mari's ok (which is important, > > considering the name). > > > > What is the name? Lioness. Bjornsborg's "Lioness" tourney is past, > > That annual tourney is usually spelled "Lyonesse". It is a > high-persona event. In it, Lyonesse is said to rise from the sea for > a few days. The Baroness of Bjornsborg (in the center of the southern > region) is called Lady Lyonesse for the duration and is the hostess. > There is fighting at the barrier, I believe. I understand that there > are plenty of examples of period people in tourneys pretending to be > knights of the Round Table and other worthies (or Worthies), so this > sounds like a fine period tourney notion to me. It is pronounced here > as "LEE ahn ess" or "LEE ah ness" -- hard for me to tell. I assume > they want the English word "Lioness". > > So: I gather that Lyonesse is a mythical sunken island somewhere off > Britain, so an attempted registration of Lyonesse would therefore > bounce by Admin Handbook III.A.6, Names of Significant Geographical > Locations from Literary Sources. Is it at all likely that period > people would have named a real place Lyonesse, Atlantis, or such? > (Any other examples come to mind of lands believed lost by period > people?) > > If "Lioness", I have the usual stunt request: can anyone think of a > language + culture + time where that might be a place-name? > > Daniel de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 5 22:22:42 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: Alisandre wrote: << Apologies, I haven't been keeping up, but what happened to "Levgorod" for the southern region, which I thought sounded rather cool (and like a place, not a species)? >> I don't have a ballot to hand, but Levgorod was ranked as three stars on the registerability scale, so it should be on the ballot. As for species and lion parts: the only such choices were L{o:}wenfeld, L{o:}wenhaven, and L{o:}wenland in German, Levgorod, and Campoleone. None of those have body parts. > Alisandre, who's been off having babies Please get your priorities straight: SCA first. You should have done like a software company -- delay the ship date. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 12 20:03:35 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Seeking permission from Isobel Margaret de Forbeys Message-ID: Greetings unto the assembled heralds of the fair kingdom of Ansteorra. A friend of mine and fellow herald wishes to locate Isobel Margaret de Forbeys to request permission to conflict with her device. She is of your lands, would any know how to get ahold of her? I would be most appreciative if anyone who can help would email me, please. In service to heraldry throughout the Knowne World, - - Lady Teceangl Bach An Tir tierna at agora.rdrop.com - -- What lies at the bottom of the ocean and twitches? A nervous wreck. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Thu Aug 12 23:34:16 1999 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:34:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: Greetings. The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It discusses an organizational change of the college and extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September 27. In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do so. Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. Tired but happy they are mailed, Etienne Obelisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Fri Aug 13 04:37:34 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 99 06:37:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: Thanks for all your hard work! You do a great job every month and it is appricated. The Gazette always looks wonderful. - -Meredudd At 01:34 AM 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings. > >The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The >ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. > >Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It >discusses an organizational change of the college and heed!> extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September 27. > >In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette >online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work >allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do so. > >Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found >three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so >critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you >wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. > >Tired but happy they are mailed, >Etienne >Obelisk > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Fri Aug 13 12:20:13 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:20:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0 Content-Type: text/plain While I normally try not to "waste bandwith" with statements like this, I will this time. The entire staff of the College of Heralds works very hard to keep things moving smoothly to almost no applaud. To everyone who puts countless hours into the Gazette, the ELOI or any of the other publications/paperwork that keep this all going, Vivat! Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net] > Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 6:38 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Gazette > > Thanks for all your hard work! You do a great job every month and it is > appricated. The Gazette always looks wonderful. > > -Meredudd > > At 01:34 AM 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Greetings. > > > >The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The > >ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. > > > >Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It > >discusses an organizational change of the college and >heed!> extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September > 27. > > > >In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the > Gazette > >online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work > >allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do > so. > > > >Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found > >three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so > >critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you > >wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. > > > >Tired but happy they are mailed, > >Etienne > >Obelisk > > > > > >========================================================================= > === > >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Gazette

While I normally try = not to "waste bandwith" with statements like this, I will = this time.

The entire staff of = the College of Heralds works very hard to keep things moving smoothly = to almost no applaud.  To everyone who puts countless hours into = the Gazette, the ELOI or any of the other publications/paperwork that = keep this all going, Vivat!

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Friday, August 13, 1999 6:38 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Gazette

    Thanks for all your = hard work!  You do a great job every month and it is
    appricated.  = The Gazette always looks wonderful.

    -Meredudd

    At 01:34 AM = 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote:
    >Greetings.
    >
    >The August = Gazette mailed tonight.  This is much later than usual.  = The
    >ILoI is also = much bigger than usual, 8 pages.
    >
    >Please read the = letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives.  It
    >discusses an = organizational change of the college and <commenters pay
    >heed!> = extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September = 27.
    >
    >In the past, = for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette
    >online so that = people can begin commenting earlier.  If time at work
    >allows, I will = do this for this weekend.  I will announce, here, if I do = so.
    >
    >Also, since I = have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found
    >three flaws in = the roster published this month.  Because the roster is so
    >critical, I = will publish another with corrections in September.  If you
    >wish to add = last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20.
    >
    >Tired but happy = they are mailed,
    >Etienne
    >Obelisk
    >
    >
    >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >Go to = http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.
    >
    >

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to = http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Aug 15 13:57:01 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:57:01 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Seeking permission from Isobel Margaret de Forbeys Message-ID: In a message dated 8/12/99 10:04:12 PM Central Daylight Time, tierna at agora.rdrop.com writes: > She is of your lands, > would any know how to get ahold of her? I have her file in front of me and will answer privately. Kathri, Asterisk Herald and Keeper of the Kingdom Files (who is so pleased when one is really where it's supposed to be!) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Tue Aug 17 22:48:37 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:48:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: I was reflecting on my summer of repeated attacks of real life, and realized that I really should be prepared in case something were to happen and someone needed to come in and take over. Although I have a drop-dead deputy (Hi, Alisandre), she managed to have a real life attack concurrent to my own. So, in a fit of...well, you figure it out, and tell me...something, I drafted the following, which I am going to put on an envelope taped to the boxes, with the legend OPEN IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. Did I leave anything out? AElfwyn ************************************ Since you are reading this, I am heraldically dead. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take over as acting baronial herald. Some things you should know: 1) Send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name and address of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. Look for the binder with the most recent editions of the Ansteorran Gazette; they all have dates on the spine. 2) While you've got the Ansteorran Gazette out (AG for short), look at the list of names on the back. This will tell you all the essential info for sending stuff in; who to send it to, how many copies, how much $$ to send, etc. The only missing info is how to make out the check (and it must be from the baronial account, get checks from the reeve): Kingdom of Ansteorra--SCA, Inc. 3) All of the forms are found in the small, black, beat-up filing box that is missing the handle on top. (Hey, that's how it looked when I got it.) All of the instructions for filling out the forms are on the back. All the current files with things to be submitted, appealed, etc. are in that same small file. 4) All of the rest of the things you need to know are contained in the books and binders (wait, some of them are mine...guess you can't take it with you) that fill the remaining five bins. Commit them to memory. (Wait! that was humor!) 5) If you have email access, subscribe to SCAHRLDS and ANSTHRLDS as soon as possible. Instructions are on the web at The folks on these lists are great and will give you help whenever you ask. Their collective years of experience probably are in the 1000 year range. God have mercy on your soul (and mine, while we're at it!). AElfwyn aet Gyrwum ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Aug 18 06:40:59 1999 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:40:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: AElfwyn, That should just about scare them off :-) No, that looks very good. The one thing I would ask is that step "0" should be contact the regional herald and not wait for to send a monthly report. We really do like to know as soon as changes happen. - --Francois - -----Original Message----- From: Jodi McMaster [mailto:jmcmaste at accd.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:49 AM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency I was reflecting on my summer of repeated attacks of real life, and realized that I really should be prepared in case something were to happen and someone needed to come in and take over. Although I have a drop-dead deputy (Hi, Alisandre), she managed to have a real life attack concurrent to my own. So, in a fit of...well, you figure it out, and tell me...something, I drafted the following, which I am going to put on an envelope taped to the boxes, with the legend OPEN IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. Did I leave anything out? AElfwyn ************************************ Since you are reading this, I am heraldically dead. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take over as acting baronial herald. Some things you should know: 1) Send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name and address of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. Look for the binder with the most recent editions of the Ansteorran Gazette; they all have dates on the spine. 2) While you've got the Ansteorran Gazette out (AG for short), look at the list of names on the back. This will tell you all the essential info for sending stuff in; who to send it to, how many copies, how much $$ to send, etc. The only missing info is how to make out the check (and it must be from the baronial account, get checks from the reeve): Kingdom of Ansteorra--SCA, Inc. 3) All of the forms are found in the small, black, beat-up filing box that is missing the handle on top. (Hey, that's how it looked when I got it.) All of the instructions for filling out the forms are on the back. All the current files with things to be submitted, appealed, etc. are in that same small file. 4) All of the rest of the things you need to know are contained in the books and binders (wait, some of them are mine...guess you can't take it with you) that fill the remaining five bins. Commit them to memory. (Wait! that was humor!) 5) If you have email access, subscribe to SCAHRLDS and ANSTHRLDS as soon as possible. Instructions are on the web at The folks on these lists are great and will give you help whenever you ask. Their collective years of experience probably are in the 1000 year range. God have mercy on your soul (and mine, while we're at it!). AElfwyn aet Gyrwum ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 07:12:59 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:12:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: Bordelon, Wendel wrote: > >The > one thing I would ask is that step "0" should be contact the regional herald > and not wait for to send a monthly report. Okay. I rewrote the paragraph as follows: Some things you should know: 1) You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. Call this officer ASAP and then write a catch-up report to mail as follow-up. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name, address, and phone number of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 08:29:02 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:29:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: AElfwyn planned for death by writing: > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. No, not necessarily (suppose you collapse on the 9th?), and that's not the point. The regional wants to know about any change ASAP, with as much warning as possible, regardless of report schedules. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 10:31:48 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:31:48 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > > AElfwyn planned for death by writing: > > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. > > No, not necessarily (suppose you collapse on the 9th?) *snicker* Yeah, someone's gonna notice by then. , and that's not > the point. The regional wants to know about any change ASAP, with as > much warning as possible, regardless of report schedules. > Oh, I understood that--guess I didn't get that across--I was just trying (okay, just trying) to do so in a humorous vein. Aelfuyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 10:59:09 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:59:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of submissions Message-ID: Can somebody review with me how to figure out where a particular submission is once it has been sent to Kingdom? Thanks, AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Wed Aug 18 12:18:57 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:18:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of submissions Message-ID: Jodi McMaster wrote: > Can somebody review with me how to figure out where a particular > submission is once it has been sent to Kingdom? > > Thanks, > AElfwyn If it's been in the AG, I can look it up on the list I maintain. If it hasn't been in the AG yet, you can contact Asterisk to verify that she has received it. You can also post it to the list; there are a few people here that keep track of submissions. - --Perronnelle - -- Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 12:52:50 1999 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:52:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 13:28:29 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:28:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C Content-Type: text/plain Ah, Darius, thank you for posting this here, it reminded me that you asked me for that input. In my opinion a branch herald should be able to, without a book in front of him, associate real world colors (blue, green, gold, white) with tincture names for a device, including basic furs. They should be able to draw a bend, a bend sinister, a chief, a bordure, a base, a fess and a pale. They should be able to know what the Ordinary and Armorial are and what they are used for. They should be able to give a basic flow of court. They should understand the different award levels (related to above). They should be able to identify, on sight, any Kingdom award. Given an OP they should be able to tell which awards a person has (with the possible exception of Baronial Service Orders which I still have to look up). And they should be able to name at least 2 other heralds in their region who they could inquire to if they had a question. Some might say this is a little bit rough for branch heralds (I openly admit I was wracking my brains for what appeared on the PE test when I took it), but if we are going to put in Heralds mostly at the Baronial+ levels now then they should be fairly qualified individuals. And there is absolutely nothing here that I couldn't take a brand new person to the Society and teach them in an afternoon. They may not have it commited to memory right away (depends on the individual) but they could be presented with the information and given handouts to be 'ready' by these qualifications within just a short time if they were interested. Timothy of Glastonbury "Var??? Vair??? Viar?? Vair! Yeah, that's it." Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:53 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > In service > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ah, Darius, thank = you for posting this here, it reminded me that you asked me for that = input.

In my opinion a = branch herald should be able to, without a book in front of him, = associate real world colors (blue, green, gold, white) with tincture = names for a device, including basic furs.

They should be able = to draw a bend, a bend sinister, a chief, a bordure, a base, a fess and = a pale.

They should be able = to know what the Ordinary and Armorial are and what they are used = for.

They should be able = to give a basic flow of court.

They should = understand the different award levels (related to above).

They should be able = to identify, on sight, any Kingdom award.

Given an OP they = should be able to tell which awards a person has (with the possible = exception of Baronial Service Orders which I still have to look = up).

And they should be = able to name at least 2 other heralds in their region who they could = inquire to if they had a question.

Some might say this = is a little bit rough for branch heralds (I openly admit I was wracking = my brains for what appeared on the PE test when I took it), but if we = are going to put in Heralds mostly at the Baronial+ levels now then = they should be fairly qualified individuals.  And there is = absolutely nothing here that I couldn't take a brand new person to the = Society and teach them in an afternoon.  They may not have it = commited to memory right away (depends on the individual) but they = could be presented with the information and given handouts to be = 'ready' by these qualifications within just a short time if they were = interested.

Timothy of = Glastonbury
"Var??? = Vair??? Viar?? Vair! Yeah, that's it."
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Darius and Monica = [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:53 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this = forum:

    "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

    In service
    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://= lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 13:10:59 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:10:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Darius and Monica wrote: > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > 1) How to get help: people and written sources; 2) How the CoH is structured; 3) How to extract necessary info from the AG; 4) How to start the submissions process; 5) How to organize baronial files--what do you need to keep, etc.; 6) How to prepare the forms 7) Basic name documentation and basic heraldry. Me, have opinions? Nah. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From marsha.greene at mpan.com Wed Aug 18 13:36:17 1999 From: marsha.greene at mpan.com (marsha.greene at mpan.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:17 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities that happen during the branch events: * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament events. * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their branch. Hillary Greenslade lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure =========================================================================== = Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Wed Aug 18 13:36:06 1999 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Darius wrote: >"What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" The short answer is......what it takes to perform the duties of their office. By taking this point of view, you first determine what is required of them, then make a list of the knowledge that is needed to perform those duties. Now as to what duties are required for branch heralds...well that can vary from kingdom to kingdom. For one point of view, I invite you to look at the article I have written, entitled: DUTIES OF A LOCAL HERALD. It is located at: http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Duties.htm Hope this helps somewhat. In Service to Crown, Kingdom and Society, Modar Neznanich 8th Baron of Forgotten Sea Saker Herald Emeritus Kingdom of Calontir =-=-=-=-=-= Some interesting SCA websites: Heraldry http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Heraldry.htm Heraldic Myths (Info to clear up misconceptions about SCA heraldry) http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Myths.htm Persona Research http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Persona1.htm Timeline http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Timeline.htm Medieval Games http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Games.htm Clothing/Garb http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Briana3.htm Medieval Cooking http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Jadwiga2.htm Thrown Weapons http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Thrown.htm Medieval Weapons http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Weapons.htm Medieval Armour http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Armour.htm Mongol History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Mongol.htm Knights Templar http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Sidon.htm Archery http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Welsh.htm Russian History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Russian.htm Tudor History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Tudor.htm Scottish History (Clan Menzies) http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Scots.htm Leathercraft http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Leather.htm Italian Renaissance History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Italian.htm Medieval Fishing http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Fishing.htm Medieval Furniture http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Furniture.htm Woodworking http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Woodwork.htm Embroidery http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Embroid.htm Joan of Arc http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/JoA.htm Spices http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Spices.htm Medieval Vampire Lore http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Vampires.htm ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 14:05:51 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: The branch warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no? If so, I'd probably argue that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be hoped for, may not be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic training program in each barony to prepare folks to take over. In our barony, we've had lots of times where folks have had to simply take over and exigent circumstances existed where they could not get with someone in person to make sure they could demonstrate that they could do things with a book closed or do field heraldry. OJT occurred after the warranting--I'm an example of that process. Further, most of us are more inclined to one area of heraldry over another anyway. As a result, I strongly advocate emphasis on knowing how to get help, how to find out how to do things, how to use the forms, how to get organized, etc. over already having mastered certain aspects, and I think the old way of open book testing was a good way of demonstrating that. Otherwise the learning curve can be too long to fill posts and submissions and other bits can be left in the vacuum. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 14:17:27 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:17:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE Content-Type: text/plain Hmm.... This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two exams? There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities > that > happen during the branch events: > * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament > events. > * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their > branch. > Hillary Greenslade > > > > > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > In service > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > = > = > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Hmm....

This just came to = me.  Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or = have) the PE exam as well.  So I ask the 50 billion dollar = question : Why have two exams?

There may be wisdom = in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on = it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

Timothy

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   marsha.greene at mpan.com = [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good ideas.   I might add some activities = that
    happen during the = branch events:
    *   Be = able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament
    events.
    *   Be = able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at = their
    branch.
    Hillary = Greenslade




    lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we need to know?




    As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this = forum:

    "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

    In service
    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    =3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.






    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 14:21:04 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:21:04 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C Content-Type: text/plain > -----Original Message----- > From: Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:06 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > The branch warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no? If so, > I'd probably argue that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be > hoped for, may not be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic > training program in each barony to prepare folks to take over. > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. Second to that should be seeing to it that your duties in the position are done. Yes, I mean that, because if you at least train your replacement well then when you're booted by your regional for not filing reports there's a good choice to replace you. > AElfwyn > Timothy of Glastonbury - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:06 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    The branch = warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no?  If = so,
    I'd probably argue = that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be
    hoped for, may not = be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic
    training program in = each barony to prepare folks to take over. 

    [Tim = Rayburn]  Training someone to be your replacement should be the = primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children.  = Second to that should be seeing to it that your duties in the position = are done.  Yes, I mean that, because if you at least train your = replacement well then when you're booted by your regional for not = filing reports there's a good choice to replace you.

    AElfwyn

    Timothy of = Glastonbury

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From the_one_true_roy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 14:43:21 1999 From: the_one_true_roy at yahoo.com (Roy Heath) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > The branch pursuivant needs to know, at a bare minimum, how to deal with the administrative requirements of the office, and how to organize heraldic activities for the local group. It's nice if the local officer actually has an interest in the science of heraldry, but not necessary. If they can fill out the paperwork, stay on top of the reporting, and ensure that heraldic activities are being handled properly in their group; then we should thank our lucky stars. Let's examine the local job a little more closely: What do the local groups need? Most of the populace simply needs someone who can help them prepare their submission forms and send them to kingdom correctly. Most groups don't have a good heraldic library, so it isn't fair to expect them to do a lot of consultation. Just make sure that the money goes to the local treasurer and the checkf for the submissions goes to kingdom with the right number of forms and photocopies. For events, there is a need for heralds to make announcements and to organize court if it is to be held; but there is no requirement that these jobs be done by the local. I and many other heralds enjoy doing court, but some folks don't. As long as the local makes certain that it is organized, it doesn't matter who does it. Arguments can certainly be raised that there are other valid duties for the local office, but these are the only ones without which our stated requrements are not met. Sincerely, Erc _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 14:39:24 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:39:24 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: AHHHH! Now to another matter at hand. First: The format of the rewriten class will not be lecture then have a test. It will be a teaching session/workshop where in the instructor will go over the information and work with those taking the class to fillout a worksheet, which will remain with the person as sort of a crib note. so when they are acting as a branch officer, should the occaision arise that they need the information, they will be able to look back to that worksheet and either have the info on hand or know who to call. This class will not only be for Baronial officers. though branches below baronial level will soon no longer be required to have a herald, I feel that many will chose to maintain the position on their roster. So the class will also be for warrenting those officers as well. Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions right now. NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a little different. Darius >Hmm.... > >This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work >(or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : >Why have two exams? > >There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different >levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch >herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) > >Timothy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities > > that > > happen during the branch events: > > * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament > > events. > > * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their > > branch. > > Hillary Greenslade > > > > > > > > > > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > > > > > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > > question to this forum: > > > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > > > In service > > Darius, Ld Tressure > > > > >========================================================================== > > = > > = > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list >tasks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >========================================================================== > > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list >tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Wed Aug 18 14:50:14 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:50:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?Not a bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic warrant would require. But we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of information very well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure that the basic information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the warrant applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant applicant does not have to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two tests again. Caelin -----Original Message----- From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn, Timothy Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG' Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Hmm.... This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two exams? There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) Timothy -----Original Message----- From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities that happen during the branch events: * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament events. * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their branch. Hillary Greenslade lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure =========================================================================== = Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?
Not a=20 bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic = warrant=20
would=20 require. But we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of=20 information
very=20 well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure = that the=20
basic=20 information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the = warrant=20
applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must = know, but=20 the warrant applicant does not
have=20 to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two = tests=20 again.
 
Caelin
-----Original Message-----
From: = owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG=20 [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn,=20 Timothy
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 = PM
To:=20 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG'
Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we = need to=20 know?

Hmm....

This just came to = me.  Darius I=20 know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as=20 well.  So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two=20 exams?

There may be wisdom in = creating just=20 one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on = if the=20 person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

Timothy

    -----Original Message----- =
    From:   marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] =
    Sent:   = Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:        = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? =

    Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good=20 ideas.   I might add some activities that
    happen during the branch = events:=20
    *   Be = able to organize=20 and run field heraldry for branch tournament
    events.
    *   Be able to organize and be the court herald = for courts=20 held at their
    branch.
    Hillary=20 Greenslade




    lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we=20 need to know?




    As we begin to = rewrite the branch=20 warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this forum:

    "What does a branch = herald _need_=20 to know?"

    In service =
    Darius, Ld Tressure =

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
    =3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing=20 list tasks.






    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=20
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing=20 list tasks.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 15:12:07 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:12:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While seperating the exam into a required area and an extended area = does basiclly create two exams again, there is something else that is done = with this : It gives the new herald a look at what would be expected to = become an PaL (Pursuivant at Large). This might encourage them to come back and = try again once they learned some more. I know that for instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a juggernaut of a beast that people studied for years to master. When I finally did get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, relatively speaking, simple the exam was. Hardly something you'd study = for years at. Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this could = encourage people. But I could be wrong, Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Threlkeld [SMTP:rjt2 at airmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:50 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >=20 > Not a bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more = than a > basic warrant=20 > would require. But we would expect either of them to know certain = pieces > of information=20 > very well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not > ensure that the=20 > basic information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas = which > the warrant=20 > applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant > applicant does not=20 > have to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically = have > two tests again. > =A0 > Caelin >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn, Timothy > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM > To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG' > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > =09 > =09 >=20 > Hmm....=20 >=20 > This just came to me.=A0 Darius I know you have plans in the works = to > re-work (or have) the PE exam as well.=A0 So I ask the 50 billion = dollar > question : Why have two exams? >=20 > There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring > different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying = to be > a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) >=20 > Timothy=20 >=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From:=A0=A0 marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]=20 > Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM=20 > To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 heralds at Ansteorra.ORG=20 > Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?=20 >=20 > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas.=A0=A0 I might add some > activities that=20 > happen during the branch events:=20 > *=A0=A0 Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch = tournament >=20 > events.=20 > *=A0=A0 Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held = at > their=20 > branch.=20 > Hillary Greenslade=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a=20 > question to this forum:=20 >=20 > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?"=20 >=20 > In service=20 > Darius, Ld Tressure=20 >=20 > =09 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =3D=20 > =3D=20 > Go to to perform mailing > list tasks.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =09 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =3D=3D=20 > Go to to perform mailing > list tasks.=20 >=20 - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

While seperating the = exam into a required area and an extended area does basiclly create two = exams again, there is something else that is done with this : It gives = the new herald a look at what would be expected to become an PaL = (Pursuivant at Large).  This might encourage them to come back and = try again once they learned some more.

I know that for = instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a juggernaut of a = beast that people studied for years to master.  When I finally did = get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, relatively = speaking, simple the exam was.  Hardly something you'd study for = years at.  Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this could = encourage people.

But I could be = wrong,

Timothy of = Glastonbury


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Richard Threlkeld = [SMTP:rjt2 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:50 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Not a bad idea. It = is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic = warrant=20
    would require. But = we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of = information=20
    very well. So a 75% = score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure that the =
    basic information = was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the = warrant=20
    applicant *must* = know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant applicant does = not=20
    have to know (whew! = I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two tests = again.
    =A0
    Caelin

      -----Original = Message-----
      From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of = Rayburn, Timothy
      Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM
      To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG'
      Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

      Hmm....

      This just came to = me.=A0 Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) = the PE exam as well.=A0 So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why = have two exams?

      There may be wisdom = in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on = it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

      Timothy

      -----Original = Message-----
      From:=A0=A0 marsha.greene at mpan.com = [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]
      Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
      To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
      Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

      Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good ideas.=A0=A0 I might add some activities that
      happen during = the branch events:
      *=A0=A0 Be able = to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament
      events.
      *=A0=A0 Be able = to organize and be the court herald for courts held at = their
      branch.
      Hillary = Greenslade




      lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we need to know? =




      As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
      question to this = forum:

      "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

      In = service
      Darius, Ld = Tressure

      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
      =3D
      Go to = <http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html> to perform mailing = list tasks.






      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
      Go to = <http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html> to perform mailing = list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 15:40:10 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:40:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not attend any of the available sessions to be trained. AElfwyn, eyewitness ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:44:07 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of > how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently > involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions > right now. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.... > NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday > morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few > days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant > ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a > little different. Since in period the title Pursuivant Extraordinary applied to officers of arms who did what (if I understand correctly) Pursuivants-at-Large are intended to do, is there some substantial reason why the title wasn't just transferred over? Or is this another case of "Let's do it the SCA way" without much reference to period practice? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:41:18 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of > how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently > involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions > right now. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.... > NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday > morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few > days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant > ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a > little different. Since in period the title Pursuivant Extraordinary applied to officers of arms who did what (if I understand correctly) Pursuivants-at-Large are intended to do, is there some substantial reason why the title wasn't just transferred over? Or is this another case of "Let's do it the SCA way" without much reference to period practice? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 15:52:42 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:52:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206 Content-Type: text/plain Ah, well this is true. This goes to the arguement that Heralds need a PR firm working for them. I know when I was first told that Heralds spent their time pouring over books to document names, I was not jumping to signup. Likewise I know some people who when they get told that the Herald has to be willing to stand up in front of lots of people and project (not yell, not scream) information they decide they're not interested. Being able to show that a 'Heralds job' is very diverse and we have experts in certain areas who are not experts in all of it is important, I feel. Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:40 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > > > > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, > I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that > you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor > baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone > will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not > attend any of the available sessions to be trained. > > AElfwyn, eyewitness > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ah, well this is = true.  This goes to the arguement that Heralds need a PR firm = working for them.  I know when I was first told that Heralds spent = their time pouring over books to document names, I was not jumping to = signup.  Likewise I know some people who when they get told that = the Herald has to be willing to stand up in front of lots of people and = project (not yell, not scream) information they decide they're not = interested.  Being able to show that a 'Heralds job'  is very = diverse and we have experts in certain areas who are not experts in all = of it is important, I feel.

Timothy of = Glastonbury

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:40 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    > Rayburn, = Timothy wrote:
    >      [Tim Rayburn]  = Training someone to be your replacement should be
    >      the primary job of = any officer, Herald or Minister of Children.
    > 

    Granted.  But = you need someone who wants to train for it.  As you know,
    I'm trying to down = here.  But takers are slim.  All I'm saying is that
    you have to take = into consideration the realities of heraldically poor
    baronies, and = there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone
    will take over = who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did = not
    attend any of the = available sessions to be trained.

    AElfwyn, = eyewitness
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 15:51:15 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:51:15 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Donald Riney wrote: >As the duties of a PaL are and will be in > many significant ways different from a branch officer, the systems must > needs be a little different. > As I understand it, that's going to require far more autonomy and mastery of the subject, so I would think that this would be where the higher demonstration of ability would be required--perhaps with what is analogous to a certificate in a community college (oddly enough, I'm working on such a thing in real life). The Branch Warranting test is an entry level thing--like an SAT or GED of heraldry. You want them to eventually get a degree, the PaL designation. In order to encourage them to develop mastery across the curriculum, you have it broken down into segments and tested appropriately: for voice heraldry, a candidate requests and is observed in court and field by the appropriate members of the educational branch and given a certificate for mastering that. For Book Heraldry, participation and evaluation of the candidate by appropriate members of the heraldic community during one of the mass consultations. Since they've already taken the GED, we should be able to assume they have certain basic skills. Maybe an advanced conflict-checking test as a capstone. Just flinging out ideas, AElfwyn, who isn't as wed to her own ideas here as in the branch warranting ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Wed Aug 18 16:00:41 1999 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:00:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, > I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that > you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor > baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone > will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not > attend any of the available sessions to be trained. In my previous Shire, I had much the same situation. I had about eight deputies--but only three that lived in the Shire. Two moved away, one dropped out, and now that I've moved, my Shire will quickly be facing suspension because they don'thave a herald. I wish that training my replacement could have been my primary job, but as the deputies that were the most interested in getting trained lived one on the other end of my principality and one in another kingdom, neither were really in a position to take over my office. - -Aryanhwy merch Catmael Herald-At-Large, Midrealm (gosh, is that a weird feeling after being Falcon's Keep Pursuivant for three and a half years!!!) - ------------------------------------------------ Sara L. Friedemann sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu - ------------------------------------------------ "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" --Yeats - ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From shauna at 2a.net Wed Aug 18 16:19:28 1999 From: shauna at 2a.net (Shauna) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:19:28 -0600 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. May I interject here? Thanks. Please, could we use some other word? Last year (almost exactly), then Golden Wing's wife got very ill very suddenly. She died quite unexpectedly two weeks before Crown (she was autocrat) and the day before their son's third birthday. He stepped down as Golden Wing almost immediately. She was also Seneschal of their group. As a result, I have been on a one-person (mostly) campaign to change the common wording to 'emergency deputy'. Their are _lots_ of reasons why an office changes hands suddenly. Thanks for letting me vent. Mistress Shauna of Carrick Point Golden Wing Principal Herald for Artemisia shauna at 2a.net gwherald at hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Wed Aug 18 17:23:32 1999 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee & Sosha) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:23:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: (snip) > I know that for instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a > juggernaut of a beast that people studied for years to master. When I > finally did get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, > relatively speaking, simple the exam was. Hardly something you'd > study for years at. Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this > could encourage people. When I asked Da'ud to write up a new PE exam, it was with ulterior motives. The idea was to create a simple exam that anyone with a basic (to my way of thinking) knowledge of armory and a smattering of Ansteorran protocol could pass. This would, I thought, not only encourage those who might be interested in heraldry in all its facets to learn a bit more about heraldry, but also give the CoH a list of those displaying such interest, with an eye toward encouraging it. (Sort of the opposite of requiring gun registration for non-criminals.) The rumors of horrid beastliness came, I believe, mostly from people who took the test without following the advice given to would-be takers: know at least the very basics, go read Fox-Davies or something similarly beginnerlike, and pay attention at a couple of courts. Since I know of at least one knight who took it cold and passed easily with almost no previous experience, I can't say it was all that difficult. If the information is forthcoming, I too would be interested to know the reason of the change from PE to PaL. Not only is PE period, the style is still used mundanely today for various representative functions (i.e., Ambassador Extraordinary). I realize from my previous look around that several other kingdoms use it as an indication of lesser skill or apprenticeship, putting it between Coronet and full-fledged Pursuivant. But "they did it that way in (other Kingdom)" has seldom been reason to change our own traditions. Quite the opposite, in fact. :) Donal O Dochartaigh ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 17:52:07 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:52:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > "Pursuivants at Large" ... "Pusuivant Extrodinary" Since "extraordinary" in this sense is "Employed or sent upon an unusual or special service; as, an ambassador extraordinary.", and Da'ud or Tadhg informed me once that that he considered it an antonym to "officer in ordinary", "a prelate [or other officer?] exercising original jurisdiction over a specified territory or group", I don't think the semantic difference between the two terms is large. Daniel "here, have a nit" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 18:05:00 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:05:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Oh, a procedural nit on PE / PaL / Roving Attack Heralds / whatever: any existing warrants / designations of such should be explicitly voided en masse before the new ones start to be created. Amra in the Steppes has told me that he enjoys having a permanent warrant as PaL / PE / I forget what, and other people may have them as well. Hey, I *said* it was a nit! Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 18 19:43:34 1999 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:43:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > Oh, a procedural nit on PE / PaL / Roving Attack Heralds / whatever: > any existing warrants / designations of such should be explicitly > voided en masse before the new ones start to be created. Amra in the > Steppes has told me that he enjoys having a permanent warrant as PaL / > PE / I forget what, and other people may have them as well. Okay, I will jump in with a question. Eons ago, when Aureliane was Star, her criteria for Pursuivant involved competency in three of four areas of heraldry (voice, court, "book," or heraldic artistry). There was a written test for PE (which was then a rank below P), and she did a one-on-one oral exam, if you will, for the rank of pursuivant. Okay, she grilled me over a weekend or so sometime in 1986, and told me I'd made pursuivant (at large). Being Aureliane, she never got around to putting it in writing, so my letter of rank was signed by Adelicia in 1987. So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. > Hey, I *said* it was a nit! I know, I know, but now it's crawling on me! - --Alisandre "daring to disagree with Daniel" Oliphant ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Wed Aug 18 20:16:32 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:16:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > First: The format of the rewriten class will not be lecture then have a > test. It will be a teaching session/workshop where in the instructor will go > over the information and work with those taking the class to fillout a > worksheet, which will remain with the person as sort of a crib note. so when > they are acting as a branch officer, should the occaision arise that they > need the information, they will be able to look back to that worksheet and > either have the info on hand or know who to call. This class will not only > be for Baronial officers. though branches below baronial level will soon no > longer be required to have a herald, I feel that many will chose to maintain > the position on their roster. So the class will also be for warrenting those > officers as well. > Very basic starting information should be basic submission process and requirements, basic event heraldry organization, contact information for regional officer and Asterisk Herald. If you teach the process of getting a submission to Asterisk and have them contact the regional herald or Asterisk for research assistance that would cover getting the submission in. I would have a basic heraldry handout that the person taking the class could take with them for reference. It can take quite a while to learn the basic rules for submission and know them well enough to quote from memory. Also, if you teach the basic information of what the Event Herald is responsible for and who to contact for assistance in organizing the heraldry for the event; I think that most regional heralds will know or be able to arrange for help at the event. Not everyone is going to want to be the court herald or to do field heraldry. Most new heralds will have some trouble remembering the rules for submissions, much less how court is to be run. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 20:28:31 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that level. *spocks an eyebrow* Oh? Subject to Society laws (e.g., Corpora, Board rulings, et cetera) and kingdom law (e.g., law proper, officer handbooks), a kingdom principal herald can structure the kingdom College of Heralds as he liseth and give people such offices, titles, and ranks as he will. The only things that really can't be nuked at will are SCA awards; those require heroic measures. P-a-L can't be viewed as an SCA award, because - - it wasn't called an award or order - - it wasn't given in court at a newsletter event (Corpora) - - only a landed type can give awards (Corpora) Since Star didn't have the power to give awards, it can't be an award. It has to be an honorific, an office, a rank, et cetera. If he says "*poof* you're not a Pursuivant-At-Large in the Ansteorran College of Heralds any more", then *poof*. > > Hey, I *said* it was a nit! > I know, I know, but now it's crawling on me! The *egg* of a louse is crawling on you? Oh, buggerit. I just remembered the Corpora provision that ossifers have to be paid members of SCA Inc. A California 501(c)3 Not-For- Profit Corporation Accept No Substitutes. That means authorizers have to bother to check membership cards and membership expiration dates. May I suggest that the rank of PaL / PE / Attack Pursuivants be decoupled from that, but if you're not a Paid Member Of SCA Inc. you just can't do anything officer-like? That is, you're as free as anyone else in the kingdom to spout off on what you think heraldry is, suggest to people who they should consult for more info, advise them on how to fill out forms -- but not accept forms, money, or otherwise act on behalf of the Ansteorran College of Heralds, until you get your new Paid Member Card (TM)? And have that activity count towards renewal? Daniel "moderately pro-Society but moderately rabid anti-SCA Inc." de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 05:46:22 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Darius and Monica wrote: > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" 1. How to spell "warrant". Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 05:57:53 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > "Pursuivants at Large" ... "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > > Since "extraordinary" in this sense is "Employed or sent upon an > unusual or special service; as, an ambassador extraordinary.", and > Da'ud or Tadhg informed me once that that he considered it an antonym > to "officer in ordinary", "a prelate [or other officer?] exercising > original jurisdiction over a specified territory or group", I don't > think the semantic difference between the two terms is large. > > Daniel "here, have a nit" de Lincolia I'll see your nit, and raise you one. "Extraordinary" means an officer outside of the regular establishment for such officers. The use in "Ambassador Extraordinary" is an historic relic of a time when it wasn't normal to keep embassies in other folk's territories; each embassy was sent for a special purpose. In modern Britain, "[Officer] Extraordinary" is usually somebody given a title because of some special expertise or sometimes merely because they need extra help; that's the major rationale behind our use of "Herald Extraordinary" titles for people who have been Star. In this case, since (if I understand it correctly) "Pursuivants at Large" won't have any title other than that, they are functionally Pursuivants Extraordinary, and I see no obvious reason not to call them that. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 06:03:26 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim > this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at > large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that > level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; > it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. That's a very good point, which I don't recall ever having been made explicit before. Is "Pursuivant" an office? Or is it a certification of a level of expertise? I'd be prepared to argue that in Period "Herald" was invariably an office, while "Pursuivant" was like "Apprentice", something that could indicate a formal position but that could also indicate merely pursuit of knowledge in a certain field. I suggest that it would be of significant value to settle this point prior to doing anything else. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 06:10:07 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:10:07 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: OK I believe both Daniel and Alessander bring up good points, First there is not a lot of semantic difference between the two titles. Two those who were given the rank of Pursuivant at large befor the last test came out should keep their privlege. as much for their knowlege as thier service to the college. this is one of the reasons to change the term we are actively using. Now, "What does a branch officer _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 06:14:24 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Now, "What does a branch officer _need_ to know?" Let's work backward from requirements to specifications, says the software engineer. (1) What does a branch officer *need* to *do*? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer *needs* to know. (2) What is a branch officer expected to do *beyond* the bare minimum required to hold the office? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer *ought* to know above what he *needs* to know. (3) What would we like to see a branch officer be able to do? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer ought to be aiming for. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Thu Aug 19 07:04:14 1999 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:04:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: I seemed to have caused a bit of a stir. Attempting to use "Pursuiviant At Large" as the label for those who are "certified", "identified" and any other "-ied" indicating a more than basic knowledge of heraldry and that are willing and are able to support heraldic activities in the Kingdom does not appear to have avoided the problem. My original reason for not using PE was that it has been given as a rank in the college over the years and does not expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I am not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there a better designator? - --Francois, Star - -----Original Message----- From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [mailto:tiomoid at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:03 AM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? - --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim > this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at > large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that > level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; > it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. That's a very good point, which I don't recall ever having been made explicit before. Is "Pursuivant" an office? Or is it a certification of a level of expertise? I'd be prepared to argue that in Period "Herald" was invariably an office, while "Pursuivant" was like "Apprentice", something that could indicate a formal position but that could also indicate merely pursuit of knowledge in a certain field. I suggest that it would be of significant value to settle this point prior to doing anything else. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Thu Aug 19 11:11:06 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:11:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I > wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I am > not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there a > better designator? > > --Francois, Star How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate region). Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 11:40:48 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Eirik wrote: > > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to > > expire I wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be > > a good choice. I am not so sure that it is a great choice. What > > do people think? Is there a better designator? > > > > --Francois, Star > > How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert > appropriate region). How about "Assistant Regional Herald"? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 13:34:42 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:34:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E Content-Type: text/plain How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse Pursuivant (Central Regional Herald). This both distinguishes them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and does not SCA-ize them into 'At-Large's. Further it has the added bonus of making it clear whenever the title is used which area, roughly, they are from. I like this idea, Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Eirik [SMTP:eirik at n-link.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire > I > > wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I > am > > not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there > a > > better designator? > > > > --Francois, Star > > How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate > region). > > Eirik > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

How about they are = titled, by region, as Extrodinary.

For example, a = non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central region would be = Eclipse Extraordinary.  His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse = Pursuivant (Central Regional Herald).  This both distinguishes = them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and does not SCA-ize them into = 'At-Large's.  Further it has the added bonus of making it clear = whenever the title is used which area, roughly, they are = from.

I like this = idea,

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant
-----Original Message-----

    From:   Eirik [SMTP:eirik at n-link.com]
    Sent:   Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    > expire. Since I = wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I
    > wanted to use = something else.  P at large seemed to be a good choice.  = I
    am
    > not so sure = that it is a great choice.  What do people think?  Is there = a
    > better = designator?
    >
    > --Francois, = Star

    How about deputy = herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate
    region).

    Eirik

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 14:08:20 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an office title. There is only one Eclipse. > His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse Pursuivant (Central > Regional Herald). Um? I thought Eclipse was Eclipse Herald? Or have we reverted to the Silly Old Practice of varying the rank to suit the officeholder rather than pegging it to the office? > This both distinguishes them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and > does not SCA-ize them into 'At-Large's. Further it has the added > bonus of making it clear whenever the title is used which area, > roughly, they are from. > > I like this idea, I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Thu Aug 19 14:29:10 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 16:29:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: Greetings, We are working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who has help us so far) and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me if the current favorite has conflicts. The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. It seems in my faded heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of required charges. Is this true or did I dream it. Thanks for the help. (P.S. The talk is now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever get off the ground. Somebody shoot me now!!! :) ) Thanks, Mere Shirden ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 14:39:53 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at their event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 14:45:36 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:45:36 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E Content-Type: text/plain Quoth the RfS: 3. Required Charges Transparent - Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory. As such, given the last sentence, if you are comparing official Society Armory (your groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the laurel wreath DOES COUNT. Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:29 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's > > Greetings, > We are working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who > has help us so far) and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me > if > the current favorite has conflicts. The preposed blazon is: Or in pale > three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I > checked the on line ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two > registered devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. It seems > in my faded heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of > required charges. Is this true or did I dream it. Thanks for the help. > (P.S. The talk is now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever > get off the ground. Somebody shoot me now!!! :) ) > > Thanks, > Mere > Shirden > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's

Quoth the = RfS:
3. Required Charges Transparent - = Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may = consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges = were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in = complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like = the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a = laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not = conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or = three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for = difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add = to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official = Society armory with any other armory.
<end = Quote>

As such, given the = last sentence, if you are comparing official Society Armory (your = groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the laurel = wreath DOES COUNT.

Timothy of = Glastonbury


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:29 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's

    Greetings,
            We are = working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who
    has help us so = far)  and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me = if
    the current = favorite has conflicts.  The preposed blazon is: Or in pale
    three escallops = inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or.  I
    checked the on line = ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two
    registered devices = unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath.  It seems
    in my faded = heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of
    required = charges.  Is this true or did I dream it.  Thanks for the = help.
    (P.S. The talk is = now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever
    get off the = ground.  Somebody shoot me now!!! :) )

    Thanks,
    Mere
    Shirden    

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Thu Aug 19 14:49:18 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 16:49:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: Yeah!!! Maybe were on to something now. Thanks! Mere [Snip] >As such, given the last sentence, if you are comparing official Society >Armory (your groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the >laurel wreath DOES COUNT. > >Timothy of Glastonbury ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 16:34:35 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:34:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Tadhg won at "Spot the Hidden Assumption". Mine, in this case, where I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of being. On the other hand, can it be said that the modified titles "Pursuivant Extraordinary" and "Pursuivant-at-Large" are job titles? This is clearer in the PE case, as "Extraordinary" implies a job specifically, one outside the line structure. As for the suggestions relating to "deputy regional herald" et al ... Personally, I'd prefer to use a period title in a way close to the period meaning, than a modern-looking descriptive title that I find boring. Further, a PE/PaL would not be a deputy of any particular regional, right? We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius is available; any others? We also have some kingdom order names we can use. Garter King of Arms is associated with the Order of the Garter; ditto Toisson D'Or (I'm pretty sure I misspled that: "Golden Fleece") doubtless did in Burgundy. (Ideally, such a named herald would have any special duties for that order, like calling up candidates for receiving those awards, but that could become a zoo at Steppes Twelfth Night. "Is Star of Merit Pursuivant here? Here's your two, and get the insignia from Anna. HEY, WHITE SCARF! OVER HERE! We've been looking for you!") For that matter, it's even possible loot the baronies. Maybe *unwise*, but I'm brainstorming now. Tell them that their baronial service order is now their branch herald's title, on the Garter model, and pounce on their old baronial title. The Steppes herald would be Oak Pursuivant, and Oakenwald might be offered to any PE/PaL that has a connection to Steppes. All in all, I think plain PE/PaL is the best. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 19 18:13:04 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a > laurel wreath or. What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? I was going to second-guess your conflict check (nothing personal, I'm like that, it's an obsession) but can't parse the blazon. The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. X.3. says that if you're counting two devices, each with the _same_ restricted charge (laurel wreath, crown, etc.) as primary charge, you can get X.1. or X.2. difference for secondary charges and pretend the laurel wreath or crown or whatever isn't there. That's it. And it should only be invoked if the armory cannot be cleared using any other rules. If you can get the CDs from X.4. or clear it by X.1. or X.2., pretend X.3. never existed - you don't need it. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 18:36:47 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Teceangl wrote: > The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. That's the easy way to go -- it hardly ever matters. > X.3. says that if you're counting two devices, each with the _same_ > restricted charge (laurel wreath, crown, etc.) as primary charge, > you can get X.1. or X.2. difference for secondary charges and > pretend the laurel wreath or crown or whatever isn't there. Um, no. To quote again: 3. Required Charges Transparent - Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, "Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules" would not conflict with "Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules". Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory. It does not say that the required charge is the primary, much less the same charge on each. The example given doesn't have any required charges as primary. It does not say you can get X.1. It says Difference of Primary Charges only, which is X.2. Basically, X.3 ought to be a subclause of X.2's infro paragraph. Well, actually, the whole Napoleonic notion of "required charges" should be tossed into the trash. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 18:50:44 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:50:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Debra Poole wrote: > The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on a > bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line > ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered > devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. I agree with Alanna: the proposed blazon is indecipherable. Also, please tell us who owns the two items you suspect of conflict, and what their blazons are. They may be clear by some other rule, or we may be able to apply X.3, or ... Basically, the mor information, the better. I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a little too generic. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:18:01 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - -- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador > Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This > fictional > person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not > have a > standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE > currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who > does > not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry > at their > event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald > couldn't make > the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title > Ambassador/Eclipse. No, we have an rank Ambassador/Herald. You mistake the correspondence. In the phrase "Duke of Norfolk", "Duke" is the rank and "Norfolk" the title. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:59:53 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > Tadhg won at "Spot the Hidden Assumption". Mine, in this case, where > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of > being. Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were both. > On the other hand, can it be said that the modified titles > "Pursuivant Extraordinary" and "Pursuivant-at-Large" are job titles? Say rather "functional positions". "Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job type, "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. > This is clearer in the PE case, as "Extraordinary" implies a job > specifically, one outside the line structure. Which can have a title or not, depending on how it is handled. > As for the suggestions relating to "deputy regional herald" et al > ... Personally, I'd prefer to use a period title in a way close to > the period meaning, than a modern-looking descriptive title that I > find boring. (Me, too, but you see how far that gets.) I wasn't aware that "Pursuivant at Large" is a period title; on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby be tainted for our purposes. (Once we figure out what those purposes are....) > Further, a PE/PaL would not be a deputy of any particular > regional, right? Dunno. (Who does?) Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more > heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius > is available; any others? That's what I would do, but it depends on how Lord Star wants to handle it. I registered a lot of titles when I was Star for *precisely* that purpose (among others). Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 21:37:04 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:37:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Hanaper ("Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle" ) wrote: > > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of > > being. > > Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were both. Since I got active here late in Dathi's tenure, I only recall seeing it as a job title. > "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. Ah. A name has to go with it, then; nobody in period would have written "Know ye that I John Blow Pursuivant Extraordinary", but rather "John Blow Windsor PE", "Thistle Herald", whatever. > on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant > Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the > SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby be > tainted for our purposes. I say hand the baggage over to the bomb squad -- let them take it to a deserted field and blow it up harmlessly. "We are not bound by our past mistakes" and "We can do better" [I presume]. We're winning against "-ocrat" and even against "autocrat"; "charter" (versus "scroll") isn't entirely hopeless; et cetera. "Pursuivant Extraordinary", to my relatively-new eyes, is rare enough in Ansteorra that we can do "the right thing" ... when we discover what it is ... or at least a righter thing. (By the way: the SCA College of Arms no longer does "Lord / Lady ". Unlike Lord Lyon, none of our heralds get to try miscreants, or get people charged with treason if they diss us while we're wearing a tabard, or anything cool like that. Since that change, territorial names are now registerable as titles.) > Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, > righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? That's what I was figuring. That's what I'd like to do. (I suppose if we followed the medieval pattern of friars, we'd need the approval of the local bishop^Wregional herald to preach in their territory. Let's not.) > Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? Well, if they had a fixed jurisdiction, wouldn't they be in ordinary? Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 05:56:25 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 05:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state > > > of being. > > > > Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were > > both. > > Since I got active here late in Dathi's tenure, I only recall seeing > it as a job title. (Oh, I'm sorry -- am I showing my age again?) > > "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. > > Ah. A name has to go with it, then; nobody in period would have > written "Know ye that I John Blow Pursuivant Extraordinary", but > rather "John Blow Windsor PE", "Thistle Herald", whatever. Precisely. > > on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant > > Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the > > SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby > > be tainted for our purposes. > > I say hand the baggage over to the bomb squad -- let them take it to > a deserted field and blow it up harmlessly. "We are not bound by our > past mistakes" and "We can do better" [I presume]. Well, *I* feel that way, and apparently *you* feel that way, but a lot of people (a lot of *very significant people*) don't feel that way. (Can we take them out into the same field and blow them up too? Please?) > We're winning > against "-ocrat" and even against "autocrat"; "charter" (versus > "scroll") isn't entirely hopeless; et cetera. "Pursuivant > Extraordinary", to my relatively-new eyes, is rare enough in > Ansteorra that we can do "the right thing" ... when we discover > what it is ... or at least a righter thing. Ah'm fur it.... > (By the way: the SCA College of Arms no longer does "Lord / Lady > ". Unlike Lord Lyon, none of our heralds get to try > miscreants, or get people charged with treason if they diss us while > we're wearing a tabard, or anything cool like that. Since that > change, territorial names are now registerable as titles.) *sigh* I rather liked that usage. Oh, well. I hope nobody is too terribly offended if I still use it...? > > Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, > > righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? > > That's what I was figuring. That's what I'd like to do. Oh, well, if we're doing what we'd LIKE to do -- I have a little list.... > > Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > > Well, if they had a fixed jurisdiction, wouldn't they be in ordinary? And I see nothing wrong with that. Where the need arises, let's establish a deputy regional herald (or two, or three), and check some of the unused titles out of the arsenal for that purpose. Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:12:05 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:12:05 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a group could just be a pursuivant. >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at >their >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:12:20 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:12:20 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a group could just be a pursuivant. Darius >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at >their >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Fri Aug 20 07:29:46 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:29:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834 Content-Type: text/plain Ok... how about this one : For those who have been granted their title for life by the College let us check them out, or register for them, a permanant name from the Heraldic Job Title List. This would then notablly distinguish Gladesong Pursuivant Extraordinary, for instance, from Timothy of Glastonbury PE. It brings enough of a distinction from warrant expiring PEs, I would think, that there wouldn't be a problem. Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald Riney [SMTP:dariusobells at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:12 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers > will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to > a > group could just be a pursuivant. > > Darius > > >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" > >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" > >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador > >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This > fictional > >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have > a > >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE > >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does > >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at > >their > >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't > make > >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title > >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been > >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds > >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald > >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your > >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical > >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I > think. > > > > > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > > > >========================================================================= > === > >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ok... how about this = one :

For those who have = been granted their title for life by the College let us check them out, = or register for them, a permanant name from the Heraldic Job Title = List.  This would then notablly distinguish Gladesong Pursuivant = Extraordinary, for instance, from Timothy of Glastonbury PE.  It = brings enough of a distinction from warrant expiring PEs, I would = think, that there wouldn't be a problem.

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Donald Riney = [SMTP:dariusobells at hotmail.com]
    Sent:   Friday, August 20, 1999 8:12 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Would there be any = problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping =
    the = "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all = branch officers will
    be identified by = their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example
    Lindenwood = Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a =
    group could just be = a pursuivant.

    Darius

    >From: = "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com>
    >Reply-To: = heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    >To: = "'Heralds Mailing List'" <heralds at Ansteorra.ORG>
    >Subject: RE: = ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?
    >Date: Thu, 19 = Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500
    >
    > > = - -----Original Message-----
    > > = From:       Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle = [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com]
    > > = Sent:       Thursday, August 19, 1999 = 4:08 PM
    > > = To:heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    > > = Subject:    RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?
    > >
    > > --- = "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com> = wrote:
    > >
    > > > How = about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary.
    > >
    > > = "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary.
    > >
    > > > For = example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central
    > > > = region would be Eclipse Extraordinary.
    > >
    > > No, = because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and = "Eclipse" is an
    > > office = title. There is only one Eclipse.
    > >
    >       [Tim = Rayburn]  But let us take the example of Ambassador
    >Extraordinary = you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier.  This = fictional
    >person would be = sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a
    >standing = Ambassador.  How is this different from a trained herald = (PE
    >currently) = being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does
    >not have a = Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at
    >their
    >event, or to = run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make
    >the = event?  We have a specific event, and we have an office = title
    >Ambassador/Eclipse.  While I realize that to = this point Eclipse has been
    >just one = person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds
    >have been = mostly paper-pushers.  What is wrong with having Eclipse = Herald
    >being able to = assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your
    >argument = Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical
    >Canton.  I = am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think.
    >
    >
    >
    > > I dislike = it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy = Eclipse
    > > = Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the = disadvantages.
    > >
    > >
    > > Tadhg, = Hanaper
    > >
    >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.


    _________________________________________________________= ______
    Get Free Email and = Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Fri Aug 20 08:25:02 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: >> Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a >> laurel wreath or. >What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops >both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember >to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie >along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). Caelin >- Teceangl ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Fri Aug 20 08:38:32 1999 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:38:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: >What's a "bend rising"? >Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, > "bend rising". It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). IIRC, there is no difference given between a "bend rising" and a bend because the bend rising was just a depiction of a bend on a curved shield. Keep it in mind when doing conflict checking. Modar ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 09:04:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:04:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". No. "Bend enarched". It's an artistic detail not worth a CD. "Rising" means that it has wings, always elevated and addorsed I think, and its body is angled so it looks like it's taking off. You can't have a winged ordinary -- sorry! Daniel "Foster's: Australian for 'beer', British for 'heraldry'" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From werisman at mail.utexas.edu Fri Aug 20 10:34:56 1999 From: werisman at mail.utexas.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:34:56 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: At 11:37 PM 8/19/99 -0500, Daniel wrote: >We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more >heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius >is available; any others? Actually, there aren't that many available. I went through all the titles at the Westgate symposium (with help from Tadhg and Da'ud) and discovered that, after you eliminate branch titles, current office titles, and personal titles of former Stars, there are only a handful left. We've used Armillary and Arbalest and several others (including Actuarius and Orle) are associated with offices that are currently vacant but may well be used again in the not too distant future. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 12:10:54 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: - --- tmcd at jump.net wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Debra Poole wrote: > > The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on > > a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line > > ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered > > devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. > > I agree with Alanna: the proposed blazon is indecipherable. I've seen the design in question, and I think it certifiably NPS. The "bend rising" is what I would call a bend enhanced to sinister; it looks very unbalanced with the three escallops in pale. I don't know where the term "bend rising" came from, but I suspect it was some place dark and dim that we don't want to go.... > I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a > little too generic. Pedant. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 13:38:07 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:38:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: >> I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a >> little too generic. > Pedant. True, but not in this case. There have been recent complains about subject lines saying just "Name help" or "Device help". DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 13:39:42 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: Gwenllian wrote: > several others (including Actuarius and Orle) > are associated with offices that are currently vacant but may well be used > again in the not too distant future. I got the impression somewhere that period heraldic titles were not associated with any particular job, and neither are they in modern times. This is just a dim impression; does anyone have data? DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 14:53:27 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: DdL wrote: > that period heraldic titles were not associated with any > particular job I should clarify that as "unless it was as a king of arms of a college of heralds, or if the title went with that of an order name". DdL (suddenly thought of Garter) - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 17:19:57 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". > Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch > officers will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For > example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not > attached to a > group could just be a pursuivant. That certainly does no damage to the historical paradigm. "Pursuivant" implies that the person is not an heraldic expert, still learning, but has a minimal amount of knowledge -- and that about descibes the sort of people who would be put in that situation. Works for me.... Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Fri Aug 20 19:17:57 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:17:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > Dunno. (Who does?) Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", > doing good, righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? Or do they > cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > > > We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more > > heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius > > is available; any others? > > That's what I would do, but it depends on how Lord Star wants to handle > it. I registered a lot of titles when I was Star for *precisely* that > purpose (among others). >From what I've read in the Gazette it would be reasonable to conclude that the PE/PaLs would be available as a resource to the regional and baronial heralds where they live. I would also conclude that a PE that live in Middleford (for this assume we don't have a herald) would be available to assist the regional herald with heraldic business in Middleford and surrounding groups. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Fri Aug 20 19:19:08 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:19:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a > group could just be a pursuivant. > Sounds like a good idea. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Aug 21 10:48:34 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:48:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: branch qualifications, heralds errant Message-ID: Just got had a chance to catch back up on the list, and I have a few quick comments about this thread. The requirements for a branch herald should be those qualifications that make having a herald better than leaving the office empty. Otherwise we are hurting ourselves. Among nice to know is pronunciation. This can be as never-ending as names research, but making the effort before tourney or court is a huge boost to the tourney/court and to the respect of the CoH. Re: looting titles. they are registered to the branches. Knowingly using a title registered to someone else without their permission is on a level with using an emblazon registered to someone else. Some kingdoms use a Chirurgeons guild instead of an officer structure. Would this work here? at least for the roving heralds? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sat Aug 21 11:25:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:25:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: branch qualifications, heralds errant Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Amy & Bill Morris wrote: > Re: looting titles. they are registered to the branches. Well, here's a place where rules and perception conflict. The only beings that can register new heraldic titles are the Society itself (for Laurel and Laurel staff) and kingdoms (for everyone else). [1] For example, the e-Armorial has Callisto Pursuivant|8708L|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Candelaio Pursuivant|9510X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of| Oakenwald Pursuivant|8104L|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Nautilus Pursuivant|9009X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Nordsteorra Herald|9201X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of| et cetera. The fourth field holds the owner name. [2] I suspect that substituting baronial order titles for baronial heralds' titles would cause less fuss [3], heraldic title fu being of less general interest. I don't know, however, and I don't think we ought to try and find out. [1] I was careful to say "new heraldic titles". A recent change was to allow heraldic titles to be registered to people, formalizing the previous practice where titles were registered for the exclusive use of the person. The process is that either Laurel or a kingdom has to register the title, and then transfer it. As with any transfer, it has to go on an LoI, with letters from the donor giving the title and a letter from the donee accepting it, and if one requirement is missed the transfer fails. (E.g. 12/94 LoAR: East, Kingdom of the. Transfer of heraldic titles to the Kingdom of Drachenwald. Albion Herald Aurochs Pursuivant Broken Wain Herald Edelweiss Herald Post Horn Pursuivant Schwarzdrachen Herald As no letter accepting the transfer of these titles has been received from Drachenwald, we are unable to make such transfer. ) [2] In a similar disconnect between popular perception and rules, I think most people would be surprised to learn that SCA Inc. could by law suck dry their local branch treasury, and I hope they would be upset, viewing that as the local branch's money. It is not sufficiently appreciated that, because there is one corporation and all bank accounts are "SCA Inc.--", SCA Inc. actually owns all the money in branch bank accounts. (This becomes clearer with financial reports -- it's why local treasurers have to be prompt about their financial reports, because kingdoms have to add up all the figures for *their* reports, which the SCA Inc. Treasurer has to add up to do the corporate tax return!) [3] "We've replaced their baronial pursuivant's title with new Folger Pursuivant. Let's see if they notice!" Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Sat Aug 21 12:16:16 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of a submission Message-ID: The one I'm trying to track is ILoI 0399, Cathlin Sommerfield, resubmitted badge. Anyone know where it is in the pipeline? AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:31:03 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > I got the impression somewhere that period heraldic titles were > not associated with any particular job, and neither are they in > modern times. This is just a dim impression; does anyone have data? Certainly they weren't as closely bound to specific functions as they are in the SCA, but they still had regular duties. There isn't a lot of data on the heraldic establishments of countries outside of the British Isles, that I've seen, but it seems plain that titled officers of arms served the nobles from whom they received their offices, and did the sort of things that officers of arms do. Bear in mind that we do orders of magnitude more registrations and tourneys than they did (which is why they had the time to do more in each case than we can do). Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:38:51 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Eirik wrote: > From what I've read in the Gazette it would be reasonable to conclude > that the PE/PaLs would be available as a resource to the regional and > baronial heralds where they live. "But that trick never works...." At least it hasn't in the past -- the only people who will draw on such a resource are people who really don't need it. I'd like to see them be fairly proactive; perhaps we could run our own version of Heraldic Visitations, desending upon some poor unsuspecting branch and heraldizing them out of a years growth. > I would also conclude that a PE that live in Middleford (for this > assume we don't have a herald) would be available to assist the > regional herald with heraldic business in Middleford and surrounding > groups. Uh, in that case, why isn't this person the group's officer of arms? If s/he has the time to help out the regional, s/he's got the time to do the local job. Heraldry begins at home. Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Sun Aug 22 16:24:58 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:24:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Uh, in that case, why isn't this person the group's officer of arms? If > s/he has the time to help out the regional, s/he's got the time to do > the local job. Heraldry begins at home. > Could be the same reason Chirurgeons at Large do not serve as a branch chirurgeons. This is hypothetical anyway. Also there may be several qualified PE/PaLs in a branch, one of which is the branch herald. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 00:38:52 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: I said: > > The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. Daniel said: > That's the easy way to go -- it hardly ever matters. Then I screwed up and misintrepreted X.3. by relating it to X.1 and X.2. Daniel fixed it: > It does not say you can get X.1. It says Difference of Primary > Charges only, which is X.2. He's right, of course. And remember, try everything else first unless you're completey certain you understand X.3. (Heck, do it anyway. It's good practice. :) - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 00:42:30 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > >> Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a > >> laurel wreath or. > > >What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops > >both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember > >to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie > >along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? > > Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". > It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). So we're to wondering about the rest of the blazon, then. Part is "Or" for the field, part is "three escallops inverted" and part is "on a bend enarched sable a laurel wreath Or". Clear enough, but since you put "in pale" so early in the blazon I'm not certain if you have three escallops inverted (*must* they be inverted? 80% of the registered escallops are upside-down and I'm personally tired of looking at so much gas-station-sign heraldry in the SCA) in pale down the field, or somehow arranged above the bend (which is weird, but possible). How, please, are the escallops arranged on the field? - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Mon Aug 23 07:29:58 1999 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:29:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Ok, we have discussed what branch officers need to know. We have discussed the name we will call our heralds that are not attached to the branches. I would now raise another question: As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? Darius, Ld Tressure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 07:51:49 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:51:49 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610 Content-Type: text/plain There are several areas that can be used for teaching : * Classes are very important. Classes on all sorts of subjects, including but not in any way limited to, conflict-checking, basic name research, field heraldry, basic OP understanding, Precedence Awareness, Court Heraldry traditions, etc. * Community. This has worked very well in Elfsea which has developed quite a thriving Heraldic Community under Darius as Nautilus. The feeling of community amoung heralds, having commentary meetings open and inviting and welcome to simple conversation and humerous comments. * Student/Teacher relationships. Some people just work well together. Encouraging these people to teach each other their expertise in a less than formal classroom area works very well. * Critique. Teaching and encouraging people to be open to critiquing (in a good way) what each other are doing. This also gives the chance to deliver the greatest tool to get someone to Herald again : Encouragment and Thanks, privately one on one. > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 9:30 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... > > Ok, we have discussed what branch officers need to know. We have > discussed the name we will call our heralds that are not attached to the > branches. I would now raise another question: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will > soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to > participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready > and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we > will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a > hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? > > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - what about...

There are several = areas that can be used for teaching :

  • Classes are = very important.  Classes on all sorts of subjects, including but = not in any way limited to, conflict-checking, basic name research, = field heraldry, basic OP understanding, Precedence Awareness, Court = Heraldry traditions, etc.
  • Community.  = This has worked very well in Elfsea which has developed quite a = thriving Heraldic Community under Darius as Nautilus.  The feeling = of community amoung heralds, having commentary meetings open and = inviting and welcome to simple conversation and humerous = comments.
  • Student/Teacher = relationships.   Some people just work well together.  = Encouraging these people to teach each other their expertise in a less = than formal classroom area works very well.
  • Critique.  = Teaching and encouraging people to be open to critiquing (in a good = way) what each other are doing.  This also gives the chance to = deliver the greatest tool to get someone to Herald again : Encouragment = and Thanks, privately one on one.


    • -----Original Message-----
    From:   Darius and Monica = [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net]
    Sent:   Monday, August 23, 1999 9:30 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - what about...

    Ok, we have = discussed what branch officers need to know. We have
    discussed the name = we will call our heralds that are not attached to the
    branches. I would = now raise another question:
    As we set into = place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will
    soon have fewer = branch officers, how should we encourage new people to
    participate in = heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready
    and armed to be a = pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we
    will need new blood = in the college. People who want to learn and lend a
    hand. How do we = teach them what they need to know?

    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 09:04:05 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: - --- Darius and Monica wrote: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that > will soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new > people to participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who > appear ready and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have > many who are not. we will need new blood in the college. People who > want to learn and lend a hand. How do we teach them what they need > to know? Historically, we (and by this I mean the entire SCA) have depended on people picking stuff up on their own. Oh, we hold occasional classes and every now and then a symposium, but mostly we hand them a list of books and say, "Go to it." I have always disliked this method. Heraldry is like the scribal arts: It's not just a case of a period "interest" that people can follow as the spirit moves them -- we need trained people to function as officers in that field. So we need to be far more proactive than we've been in the past. We need to encourage people to use armory everywhere. This might include giving additional prizes in arts competitions/demonstrations for projects that use armory well. We need to hold demonstrations to show people how heraldry can enrich their lives. There are books out there with luscious illustrations of good armory; let's get these and show them around. We need to compile introductory materials designed to transmit elementary heraldic knowledge as painlessly as possible. We've been hammering these out on an ad-hoc basis over the last twenty years, but we need to (a) ask people what they find hard or confusing about armory, (b) find out what seems to be working and what doesn't, and (c) come up with a supply of materials that we can use to lead people from Know Nothing to Useful Commentor by comfortable stages. We need to promote films that do heraldry well, such as Branagh's "Henry V" and "A Man For All Seasons". We need to dump on movies that do heraldry badly, like "Ivanhoe". We need to encourage authenticity at every turn, because Authenticity Is Our Friend -- we want people to pick authentic names and good period-style armory. We need to set up systems so that forms and reports, while still doing everything they need to do, are as unburdensome as possible. We need to run training so that prospective officers of arms won't get stage fright when doing court and field heraldry. That includes devising formulae that all are happy with and them making everybody memorize and use them. Spontaneity is fine in its place, but people work better within a framework of well-known, comfortable ritual. (This also means stepping on people who want change just for the sake of change. If a change isn't NECESSARY, it's BAD.) Strong letter follows.... Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 15:40:14 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:40:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: Hello again, In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. The blazon is : Azure, a semy of mullets argent. This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) and is very visually distinctive. My search shows NO entries within the O&A that use a semy of mullets, of any color, as the Primary. Very popular seems to be a bordure semy of mullets, but not the field. The only entries in the O&A with SEMY and MULLET are as follows : Bruinnech Longstrider The following device associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via the East): Azure, a drop spindle argent and a bordure argent semy of mullets of six points azure. Denise MacMhathain The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1985 (via Atenveldt): Argent, semy of decrescents vert, a spider tergiant sable charged with a mullet argent. James FitzGarth The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1985 (via the Middle): Vert, semy of buttercups Or, a griffin segreant, and on a chief argent, three mullets azure. Joscelyn FitzHarry of Gillyflower The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of 1980 and converted to device and reblazoned in April of 1984 (via Caid): Per fess arched azure, mulletty argent, and gules, semy of apples, a sun in his splendour Or between the horns of an increscent moon argent. Kyneburh Boithuile The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1999 (via Atlantia): Per bend argent and azure, a mullet of eight points counterchanged, a bordure sable semy of quatrefoils argent. Marie du Puy The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1994 (via Calontir): Argent, a sea-horse azure within a bordure sable, semy of mullets of four points argent. Olwen ferch Rhys of Aberdovey The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1994 (via the East): Vert, semy of roses argent, a horse salient and on a chief Or three mullets of six points vert. Reya nam Beanntan The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1985 (via the East): Per pale argent and sable, semy of crescents, within a bordure charged with three mullets of eight points, all counterchanged. Robert Runewald The following device associated with this name was registered in February of 1998 (via Atlantia): Per pale azure and Or, semy of arrows inverted, a crab, on a bordure six mullets all counterchanged. Sternfeld, Barony of The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 1989 (via the Middle): Gules, a mullet within and conjoined to five mullets in annulo, the whole within and conjoined to a bordure Or, semy of mullets of four points azure. Talena of Western Seas The following device associated with this name was registered in December of 1989 (via Caid): Sable, a mullet within the horns of a decrescent argent, all within a bordure argent, semy of leaves vert. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Mon Aug 23 16:02:53 1999 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:02:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: At 05:40 PM 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hello again, > >In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again >with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if >you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. > >The blazon is : > >Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > >This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) >and is very visually distinctive. I found the devices listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Or". I'm wondering if Liriel's is a conflict since it is only the addition of the fox. And under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is: Seitse Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in November of 1973: Vert, mulletty pierced argent. Which would conflict with "Azure, mulletty argent", right? I really wish we could search on "mulletty". By the way, I like the device. Looks way cool. Hopefully someone with better armory skills than mine can offer suggestions on how to clear any conflicts. Maybe a simple field division with "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the other? Mari - ----------------------------------------------- Sternfeld, Barony of The following device associated with this name was registered in July of 1983 (via the Middle): Azure, mulletty of four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath vert. Liriel Correll of Tuatha Keep The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 1988 (via Calontir): Azure, mulletty, a fox salient Or. James Darkstar The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 1983 (via Atenveldt): Azure, mulletty, on a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base throughout sable. Madeleine la Reveuse Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in February of 1980: Azure, mullety Or, a tower argent within a bordure Or. Mariah Stern The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1988 (via the Middle): Azure, mullety Or, in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or. Ioannes Nikaias The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1981 (via Atlantia): Azure, mullety of eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book argent bound sable and in base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps respectant Or. Richard of Castle North The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1990 (via Caid): Azure, mullety of four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister argent. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Mon Aug 23 16:05:12 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:05:12 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will > soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to > participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready > and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we > will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a > hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? > Okay, I agree with most of what's been said; however, I believe if you want to teach more people that a basic heraldry class should be taught in each region at least once a year. Almost every other office is requiring the regional officers to teach a class on the basics to run the office in their region. Some are requiring the classes to be taught at least once a quarter. I think that we should have a regional symposium in each region at least once a year. Also the Book of the Herald should be redone and made as simple as possible. I know the knowledge is out there, it just seems like no one has gotten the knowledge together and presented it as often as possible. I don't mean to say that anyone isn't doing the job or has done a bad job. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 16:13:20 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:13:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2 Content-Type: text/plain *grumbles moving back to the O&A* I completely forgot about mullety as a descriptive word. Checking it again folks, sorry. Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen O'Brien [SMTP:kobrien at bmc.com] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets > > At 05:40 PM 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello again, > > > >In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance > again > >with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course > if > >you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as > well. > > > >The blazon is : > > > >Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > > >This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block > print) > >and is very visually distinctive. > > I found the devices listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under > "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Or". I'm wondering if Liriel's is a > conflict since it is only the addition of the fox. > > And under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is: > Seitse > Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were > registered in November of 1973: > Vert, mulletty pierced argent. > > Which would conflict with "Azure, mulletty argent", right? > > I really wish we could search on "mulletty". By the way, I like the > device. Looks way cool. Hopefully someone with better armory skills than > mine can offer suggestions on how to clear any conflicts. Maybe a simple > field division with "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the > other? > > Mari > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Sternfeld, Barony of > The following device associated with this name was registered in July of > 1983 (via the Middle): > Azure, mulletty of four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath > vert. > > Liriel Correll of Tuatha Keep > The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of > 1988 (via Calontir): > Azure, mulletty, a fox salient Or. > > James Darkstar > The following device associated with this name was registered in March of > 1983 (via Atenveldt): > Azure, mulletty, on a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base > throughout sable. > > Madeleine la Reveuse > Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were > registered in February of 1980: > Azure, mullety Or, a tower argent within a bordure Or. > > Mariah Stern > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of > 1988 (via the Middle): > Azure, mullety Or, in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or. > > Ioannes Nikaias > The following device associated with this name was registered in January > of > 1981 (via Atlantia): > Azure, mullety of eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book > argent > bound sable and in base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps > respectant Or. > > Richard of Castle North > The following device associated with this name was registered in October > of > 1990 (via Caid): > Azure, mullety of four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister > argent. > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets

*grumbles moving = back to the O&A*

I completely forgot = about mullety as a descriptive word.

Checking it again = folks, sorry.

Timothy

-----Original Message-----
From:   Kathleen O'Brien [SMTP:kobrien at bmc.com]
Sent:   Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 PM
To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Semy of = Mullets

At 05:40 PM = 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello = again,
>
>In my eternal = search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again
>with conflict = checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if
>you see some = sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well.
>
>The blazon is = :
>
>Azure, a semy = of mullets argent.
>
>This device has = a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print)
>and is very = visually distinctive.

I found the devices = listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under
"Mullet - = Uncharged - 4 or more - Or".  I'm wondering if Liriel's is = a
conflict since it = is only the addition of the fox.

And under = "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is:
Seitse
Either the name or = the following device associated it (or both) were
registered in = November of 1973:
Vert, mulletty = pierced argent.

Which would conflict = with "Azure, mulletty argent", right?  

I really wish we = could search on "mulletty".  By the way, I like = the
device.  Looks = way cool.  Hopefully someone with better armory skills than
mine can offer = suggestions on how to clear any conflicts.  Maybe a simple
field division with = "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the = other?

Mari

-----------------------------------------------

Sternfeld, Barony = of
The following = device associated with this name was registered in July of
1983 (via the = Middle):
Azure, mulletty of = four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath vert.

Liriel Correll of = Tuatha Keep
The following badge = associated with this name was registered in August of
1988 (via = Calontir):
Azure, mulletty, a = fox salient Or.

James = Darkstar
The following = device associated with this name was registered in March of
1983 (via = Atenveldt):
Azure, mulletty, on = a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base
throughout = sable.

Madeleine la = Reveuse
Either the name or = the following device associated it (or both) were
registered in = February of 1980:
Azure, mullety Or, = a tower argent within a bordure Or.

Mariah Stern
The following = device associated with this name was registered in May of
1988 (via the = Middle):
Azure, mullety Or, = in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or.

Ioannes = Nikaias
The following = device associated with this name was registered in January of
1981 (via = Atlantia):
Azure, mullety of = eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book argent
bound sable and in = base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps
respectant = Or.

Richard of Castle = North
The following = device associated with this name was registered in October of
1990 (via = Caid):
Azure, mullety of = four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister argent.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:12:50 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. I'm a bit surprised nobody's noticed Somalia, "Azure, a mullet argent" (9/95). One CD for number. "Semy" is a group of charges, which means it gets all the CDs a charge group can get. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:15:03 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:15:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: By the way, there's a slight error in the proposed blazon > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. It should be Azure semy of mullets argent. (commas are almost always optional in blazons, but I don't recall seeing them after a tincture and before "semy"). Alternately, since mullets have their own special semy-word, you could do Azure mullety argent. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:16:11 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:16:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Eirik wrote: > Also the Book of the Herald should be redone Sorry. That's a retirement project for former Star Principal Heralds. Daniel "at which point they Pass Beyond The Rim" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 23 18:55:47 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:55:47 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: Clarification of submissions in August Gazette Message-ID: - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have received extra information from the branch herald in Brad Leah about two submissions from that branch that are in ILoI0899. For the use of commenters I forward the following: > For Hans Faust, The culture and time is German in the early 1500s > For Monica de la Cueva, it is Spanish 1500s. I guess I should have > mentioned something about her having the name of a Saint stemming from the > custom of Catholics being named after Saints. Please pass this on to any commenters who are not on the list. With thanks for your help, Kathri Asterisk kathri at aol.com - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BSmif76308 at aol.com From: BSmif76308 at aol.com Full-name: BSmif76308 Message-ID: <34b0f06f.24f326ea at aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:36:26 EDT Subject: Clarification To: Kathri at aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Greetings from the humble shire of Brad Leah, I was looking at the August Gazette and I saw where I forget to specify Language/Culture on two entries. For Hans Faust, The culture and time is German in the early 1500s For Monica de la Cueva, it is Spanish 1500s. I guess I should have mentioned something about her having the name of a Saint stemming from the custom of Catholics being named a Saints. If you have any other questions please let me know. Hans Faunst Herald of Brad Leah mka Brent Smith - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Mon Aug 23 15:20:09 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:20:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of a submission Message-ID: Jodi McMaster wrote: > The one I'm trying to track is ILoI 0399, Cathlin Sommerfield, > resubmitted badge. Anyone know where it is in the pipeline? As per the June 1999 AG, it passed kingdom and is on its way to Laurel. - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 19:52:24 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > I'm a bit surprised nobody's noticed Somalia, "Azure, a mullet argent" > (9/95). One CD for number. > > "Semy" is a group of charges, which means it gets all the CDs a charge > group can get. What I'm surprised is that no one has mentioned X.2. Most of the examples of mullety armory have had a completely different primary charge. I reiterate: X.1. Addition of Primary Charges - Armory does not conflict with any protected armory that adds or removes the primary charge group. Most cadency systems did not involve addition or deletion of the primary charge group, so this automatically creates an independent design. For example, Argent, two mullets gules does not conflict with Argent, a pale between two mullets gules, and Vert, a lion rampant Or and a chief indented argent does not conflict with Vert, a chief indented argent. So what you need to check for is *any* number of mullets as the primary charge. As Daniel noted above, Somalia is only one CD from the proposal. And yes, you betcha semy is a primary charge group when it's the only charges on the field. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Steafanmac at aol.com Mon Aug 23 21:47:54 1999 From: Steafanmac at aol.com (Steafanmac at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:47:54 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check? Message-ID: Greetings all! Could I bother the College for a conflict check on the following blazons, please? 1) Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated argent between three towers argent masoned sable. 2) Azure platy. (With sincere apologies to Timothy of Glastonbury for the similarity.) 3) Quarterly sable and gules, a sea-horse argent. 4) Per fess argent and sable, a demi-horse issuant from the line of division sable. 5) (Fieldless) A griffin segreant azure. Best I can tell, all five are clear, but I'm still new at conflict checking with any accuracy. Any comment is appreciated. Thanks in advance for the help! In your service, Lord Stephen Macthomas Gate's Edge ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 00:07:44 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check? Message-ID: > 1) Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated argent between three towers > argent masoned sable. Against Grigorii Elisseyevich - December of 1995 (via Meridies): Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated between three mascles, a bordure argent. I see one CD for type change to secondaries, one CD for removal of the bordure. Possible CD for addition of field treatment to the towers but I cannot remember if rowers count like walls and therefore don't get difference for stonework representations (masoning). Clear either way. Nothing else comes even close. > 2) Azure platy. (With sincere apologies to Timothy of Glastonbury for the > similarity.) Clear. Cool. > 3) Quarterly sable and gules, a sea-horse argent. Against Eilonwy Andereth - August of 1979: Azure, a sea unicorn rampant reguardant argent. I think only one CD for the field tincture. I know regardant isn't worth any difference, and would very much hesitate to give difference between a sea-unicorn and a sea-horse. Conflict. > 4) Per fess argent and sable, a demi-horse issuant from the line of division > sable. Against No Mountain, Shire of - May of 1988 (via Calontir): Per fess embattled argent and vert, in chief a demi-horse rampant sable. One CD only for change to field. Conflict. > 5) (Fieldless) A griffin segreant azure. Against Brendan McEwen - December of 1996 (via Ansteorra): Per fess argent and gules, a griffin segreant azure. Only one CD for removal of field. Conflict. Sorry about all the bad news. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Tue Aug 24 10:41:31 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:41:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College Message-ID: Greetings! As most of you know, I am Timothy of Glastonbury, a deputy herald in the Barony of Elfsea. Elfsea will be holding it's Baronial College on January 22, 2000. I would like to use this College as an opportunity to hold a variety of classes on Heraldry within the Society. I was hoping that some of you fine folks on this list might wish to come and hold classes, especially with KWHS just a few short months later (you can dry run your classes :). I would be particularly interested in some basic classes in Conflict Checking, Period Arms, Ansteorran Awards 101, etc. I would also like to give the opportunity to run more 'advanced' classes. I have almost unlimited class space (I've prepared the Steward for up to 14 classes already), and have space for two hour classes etc. If you've never been to one of Elfsea's Baronial Colleges, they are usually held at the University of Texas at Arlington, in classrooms with power, tables, seating, and white/blackboards. If you would be interested, please reply to me. Ld. Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Tue Aug 24 11:03:45 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:03:45 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College Message-ID: Not really about the subject, but I would like to mention two things. (1) I met your brother at American Eurocopter Sunday night. I was just back from the Hawkwood Faire in tights and all. He recognized the garb and mentioned your name! Talk about coincidences. (2) The talk about not using HTML is primarily to you. In fact, yours is the only email I have seen on the lists that is in HTML. Unfortunately, a fair number of our people do not have email systems which will handle HTML properly. Oh, well. And thanks for doing the good work on the Baronial College! Caelin ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Tue Aug 24 11:16:30 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:16:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Inspired? Cartouche... Message-ID: Alright, I was inspired by Azure plattey, and since someone else has 'dibs' on it, I went looking for something other than mullets (insanely popular) that would look good to me. I found cartouches, which have all of 27 registered items that even include them. So ... How about the following badge and device combination? Device : Azure semy of cartouche argent. Badge : Azure a cartouche argent. The badge would conflict with the device, but otherwise appears clear (I've said that before though). The device is, again, clear as far as I can tell. Now, the only question I have outstanding is ... doesn't a cartouche look a lot like a bar? (just rounded ends). Is there a precedent out there about these conflicting or such? Timothy "I really think my brains engaged today" of Glastonbury ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Tue Aug 24 11:19:31 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:19:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College - oops Message-ID: Sorry, that was meant to be private. > Not really about the subject, but I would like to mention two things. Caelin ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 15:26:19 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Inspired? Cartouche... Message-ID: > Device : Azure semy of cartouche argent. > Badge : Azure a cartouche argent. > > The badge would conflict with the device, but otherwise appears clear (I've > said that before though). The device is, again, clear as far as I can tell. > > Now, the only question I have outstanding is ... doesn't a cartouche look a > lot like a bar? (just rounded ends). Is there a precedent out there about > these conflicting or such? Bars are fesswise, cartouches are palewise. I think billets are what you need to consider. And eggs. And taking into consideration all the above, both of these suggestions are clear. Azure semy of cartouches argent. Azure, a cartouche argent. Very nice. Oh, and a person always has implied permission to conflict with himself/herself, so that's fine, too. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Tue Aug 24 19:58:13 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:58:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: I've seen this before... Since the semy is a field treatment and not a true charge, this is period but rather rare (France ancient, Brittany, de Ferrers, Albret, etc.) Most, but not all, examples are territorial arms, not personal. Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for "not compatible with period practice." In the past most of the plain arms submissions were simply bounced for conflict with mundane heraldry. this avoided long involved technical discussions about how to conflict chargless devices. The other option was to ask for two differences. The most straight-forward interpretation of the rules would be to consider the mullety as the primary charge. Actually I like this. If you want help with period examples, see me. (Mableth). Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > > Hello again, > > In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again > with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if > you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. > > The blazon is : > > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) > and is very visually distinctive. > > My search shows NO entries within the O&A that use a semy of mullets, of any > color, as the Primary. Very popular seems to be a bordure semy of mullets, > but not the field. The only entries in the O&A with SEMY and MULLET are as > follows : > > Bruinnech Longstrider > The following device associated with this name was registered in September > of 1995 (via the East): > Azure, a drop spindle argent and a bordure argent semy of mullets of six > points azure. > > Denise MacMhathain > The following device associated with this name was registered in April of > 1985 (via Atenveldt): > Argent, semy of decrescents vert, a spider tergiant sable charged with a > mullet argent. > > James FitzGarth > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1985 > (via the Middle): > Vert, semy of buttercups Or, a griffin segreant, and on a chief argent, > three mullets azure. > > Joscelyn FitzHarry of Gillyflower > The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of > 1980 and converted to device and reblazoned in April of 1984 (via Caid): > Per fess arched azure, mulletty argent, and gules, semy of apples, a sun in > his splendour Or between the horns of an increscent moon argent. > > Kyneburh Boithuile > The following device associated with this name was registered in April of > 1999 (via Atlantia): > Per bend argent and azure, a mullet of eight points counterchanged, a > bordure sable semy of quatrefoils argent. > > Marie du Puy > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1994 > (via Calontir): > Argent, a sea-horse azure within a bordure sable, semy of mullets of four > points argent. > > Olwen ferch Rhys of Aberdovey > The following device associated with this name was registered in January of > 1994 (via the East): > Vert, semy of roses argent, a horse salient and on a chief Or three mullets > of six points vert. > > Reya nam Beanntan > The following device associated with this name was registered in October of > 1985 (via the East): > Per pale argent and sable, semy of crescents, within a bordure charged with > three mullets of eight points, all counterchanged. > > Robert Runewald > The following device associated with this name was registered in February of > 1998 (via Atlantia): > Per pale azure and Or, semy of arrows inverted, a crab, on a bordure six > mullets all counterchanged. > > Sternfeld, Barony of > The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of > 1989 (via the Middle): > Gules, a mullet within and conjoined to five mullets in annulo, the whole > within and conjoined to a bordure Or, semy of mullets of four points azure. > > Talena of Western Seas > The following device associated with this name was registered in December of > 1989 (via Caid): > Sable, a mullet within the horns of a decrescent argent, all within a > bordure argent, semy of leaves vert. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Tue Aug 24 20:45:54 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:45:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: mableth? / Amy & Bill Morris writeth something that beginneth in wrongness, proceedeth in its wrongness nigh all the length of its writing, and cometh to rightness only at its ending, whereat it is nigh wholly wrong. Sorry -- I was checking something in the KJV Deuteronomy and the style rubbed off on me. (Son of a gun -- sodomy *is* forbidden in there!) > Since the semy is a field treatment and not a true charge, In the SCA, this is false, as I wrote in a previous message. To quote the SCA CoA Glossary of Terms, Field Treatment. ... Field treatments do not include the ermined furs or strewn charges. ... Semy. An adjective meaning that something is strewn with identical charges. (It is from the French sem{e'}, the past participle of the verb semer 'to strew'.) A field Azure semy-de-lys Or is blue with a pattern of gold fleurs-de-lys on it. A bordure vert semy of rowels argent is green and is charged with several (at least five and usually eight) white rowels evenly spaced around it. The charges so used are called strewn charges. When placed directly on the field, strewn charges are considered a separate charge group from any other charges. Strewn charges may be considered the primary charge group if there are no other charge groups present or if the only other charge groups present are peripheral charge groups. When placed on another charge, strewn charges are considered a tertiary charge group. Strewn charges are not considered a field treatment. Ermine spots in an ermined tincture are not considered strewn charges; they are considered part of a separate tincture. See also: Ermined Tinctures, Field Treatment, Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group, Tertiary Charge Group. Outside the SCA, I'm not sure they use the concept of "field treatment". Rouland? > this is period but rather rare (France ancient, Brittany, de > Ferrers, Albret, etc.) I don't have _Anglo-Norman Armory II_ to hand, but as best I recall it's not particularly rare at all even in the earliest days. Semy of crosses [crosslet], -de-lys, and of mullets are the examples I remember. > Most, but not all, examples are territorial arms, not personal. How would you tell whether the arms of a landed lord are "territorial" or "personal"? I had not previously considered that there might be differences in armorial style between landed folk and non-landed folk in the same land in the same time, but that was an oversight on my part. Nevertheless, given the general tendency to ape one's betters in the Middle Ages, I'd be moderately surprised to see significant differences. What evidence do you have concerning this subject? > Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for > "not compatible with period practice." Please cite one Laurel return since 1990 that would not have been boinged had there been a charge. I suspect that there have been none such since Karina, but I've not looked at Baldwin, Wilhelm, or Alison LoARs to know how they worked. > In the past most of the plain arms submissions were simply bounced for > conflict with mundane heraldry. this avoided long involved technical > discussions about how to conflict chargless devices. The other option > was to ask for two differences. Since the new rules from around 1990, there have been no technical discussions about how to conflict-check field-only armory (except for some unfortunate laxness in the current wording). 2 CDs apply to field-only armory just like any other armory, as does RfS X.1. RfS X.4.a.ii originally covered field-only armory, and now covers field-primary (field-only, with at most one of an enumerated set of uncharged peripheral charges). X.4.a.ii gives extra CDs in field-primary cases. That was, in fact, how my current arms were conflict-checked and passed: "Per chevron embattled argent and azure", 9/94. Since the Modest Proposal in 12/94, there have been fewer conflict calls versus simple non-SCA armory. The current X.4.a.ii has improved conflict-checking substantially for field-primary armory. I had to do several pages of charts based on 17 or so categories of Papworth's. > The most straight-forward interpretation of the rules would be to > consider the mullety as the primary charge. (That would contradict your initial statement that it was a field treatment; a field treatment is part of the tincture and hence not a charge.) As noted in the Glossary quote, and as noted in a Bruce precedent quoted in a previous message (Alanna? I don't recall), that's indeed the interpretation under the rules. > Actually I like this. I agree with this sentiment. Pity about the conflict. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Tue Aug 24 21:29:20 1999 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee & Sosha) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:29:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Talk to me at Stargate Baronial. I will be turning over a rough draft to Francois then. Donal "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > Eirik wrote: > > Also the Book of the Herald should be redone > > Sorry. That's a retirement project for former Star Principal Heralds. > > Daniel "at which point they Pass Beyond The Rim" de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Wed Aug 25 07:05:24 1999 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:05:24 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > > Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for > > "not compatible with period practice." > > Please cite one Laurel return since 1990 that would not have been > boinged had there been a charge. I suspect that there have been none > such since Karina, but I've not looked at Baldwin, Wilhelm, or Alison > LoARs to know how they worked. I can cite one fairly recent, via An Tir: Gules ermined Or. Laurel ruled that that was a plain tincture, and we don't register plain tinctures. The client added an argent label, and that cleared the problem. - -Aryanhwy - ------------------------------------------------ Sara L. Friedemann sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu - ------------------------------------------------ "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" --Yeats - ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From timothy_of_glastonbury at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 07:46:19 1999 From: timothy_of_glastonbury at yahoo.com (Timothy Rayburn) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: > Bars are fesswise, cartouches are palewise. I think billets are what > you > need to consider. And eggs. And taking into consideration all the > above, > both of these suggestions are clear. > Azure semy of cartouches argent. > Azure, a cartouche argent. > Very nice. Oh, and a person always has implied permission to conflict > with > himself/herself, so that's fine, too. > > - Teceangl Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. Timothy of Glastonbury >From his account that won't spam with HTML/MIME/etc garbage. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 25 08:47:37 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:47:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: Quite so, Anyanhwy. I had forgotten about plain tinctures not being registered or protected. However, the return was not for non-period style: anyone with _Simple Heraldry Cheerfully Illustrated_ can, if I remember aright, find the page whith the plain-tinctured shields and their bearers in Britain. For that matter, there's Brittany, "Ermine". Despite my infelicitous challange -- thank you Aryanhwy and Tecangl for the counter-examples -- field-only armory is not per se returned on NPS grounds, and I don't know of a time when it was. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Wed Aug 25 15:23:27 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:23:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: An Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200 would blazon in Anglo-Norman. You can borrow My copies of 'Early Blazon" and 'Eight Thirteenth-Century Rolls of Arms in French and Anglo-Norman Blazon" if you like. I can also loan you five of the Scottish Heraldry Society Rolls of Arms reprints (modern English translations). I opened Collins Roll (1296?) at random and found 3 field only arms in the first three pages, plus one with only a bordure. I will warn you that reading primary sources may disillusion you about SCA Heraldry. For example number 610, per chevron argent and ermine, Brianus Sandford. Timothy Rayburn wrote: > > > Bars... a fine, too. > > > > - Teceangl > > Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : > > In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish > (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be > determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple > rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, > including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. > > Timothy of Glastonbury > >From his account that won't spam with HTML/MIME/etc garbage. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Aug 25 16:39:16 1999 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:39:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: At 10:45 PM 8/24/99 -0500, Daniel wrote: >I don't have _Anglo-Norman Armory II_ to hand, but as best I recall >it's not particularly rare at all even in the earliest days. I took a quick look through A-N II and found a dozen or so devices connected with individuals that have strewn charges as their primaries. There were a very large number of semy fields, but most had an ordinary on them. Some examples: John Darcy, Argent semy of roses gules Robert Mortimer, Barry or and vert, semy-de-lis counterchanged Other interesting tidbits: Strewn items tended towards the simple and common (billety, bezanty, semy-de-lys, crusilly), but some were more complex, including several examples of nine or ten martlets that we might well call semy of martlets. The most interesting thing I noticed is that ordinaries with strewn charges were fairly common, not just the bordures we see a lot in the SCA but also fesses, pales, and chevronels (!). Based on this, I'd say that Timothy's proposed device (both versions) is certainly based on a period, although not common, practice. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 26 03:09:44 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: > > Azure semy of cartouches argent. > > Azure, a cartouche argent. > Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : > > In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish > (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be > determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple > rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, > including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. That early, it would most likely be billets. They were quite popular in the rolls which are found in Foster's, and a lovely simple charge. The simplicity and the semy both smack of excellent period style, BTW. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Sun Aug 29 15:52:16 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:52:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is an English version of Bahlow's "Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt"? If so, citation please. - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From aforsyth at uh.edu Mon Aug 30 07:08:30 1999 From: aforsyth at uh.edu (Amy Forsyth) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:08:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Sorry, There's only two editions listed in OCLC, both German (1965 and 1985). However, there is: Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 ISBN: 0924119357 It's supposed to have maps. It looks like Rice Univ. may have it. ~Addy At 05:52 PM 8/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know if there is an English version of Bahlow's "Deutschland >Geographiche Namenwelt"? If so, citation please. > >--Perronnelle > >-- >The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody >appreciates how difficult it was. > > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 30 08:53:53 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:53:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: > translated by Edda Gentry ... > Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, That's the Englished Bahlow. Thanks! DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Mon Aug 30 10:10:03 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:10:03 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Amy Forsyth wrote: > There's only two editions listed in OCLC, both German (1965 and 1985). > > However, there is: > > Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of > German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an > introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max > Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- > Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 > ISBN: 0924119357 Bahlow wrote more than one book. I'm looking for an English version of "Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt" not "Deutsches Namenlexikon" (which is reprinting in English in November). Thanks, - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From pcrandal at flash.net Mon Aug 30 15:47:54 1999 From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:47:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Amy Forsyth wrote: > However, there is: > > Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of > German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an > introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max > Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- > Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 > ISBN: 0924119357 Barnes & Noble has it: Dictionary of German Names Hans Bahlow Edda Gentry (Translator) Retail Price: $22.95 Our Price: $18.36 You Save: $4.59 (20%) Ships 3-5 weeks Format: Paperback ISBN: 0924119373 Publisher: Univ of Wisconsin Pr Pub. Date: April 1999 Edition Desc: 2ND REV ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 2 05:50:58 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - My Recent Arms Submission (fwd) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/31/99 12:09:51 AM Central Daylight Time, Daniel de Lincolia writes about Mistress Gunnora Hallakarva's device: > Can we maybe sic the nice heraldic artist on this one? Ummm.... Daniel, just which of our scant supply of overworked, under-appreciated heraldic artists do you consider "the nice" one? Seriously, this good peer has cause for complaint. Reading through her file reveals a saga worthy of the best skald. Lacking poetry, I will try to fill in with practicality. Yes, the College of Heralds can help get this device redrawn and resubmitted with as little trouble as possible to this admirably persistant submitter. I'm going to address the details of the resubmission with the lady privately. Mistress Gunnora, please give me a couple of days to contact you with specifics; I need to make some phone calls and work up a complete offer and schedule. Either Star or I will address her general suggestions, several of which are under consideration or in the process of implementation. Watch this space for future developments! In service to the heralds and submitters of Ansteorra, Kathri, Asterisk Herald In-kingdom Submissions Processing ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 2 21:24:40 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:24:40 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: I need to know whether you find the following device clear of conflict: Per fess gules and azure, a catamount passant and a kestrel maintaining a garb Or Response by August 20 1999 would be appreciated. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 3 00:47:08 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: > Per fess gules and azure, a catamount passant and a kestrel maintaining a > garb Or As per the online Ordinary on 8/2/99, it's clear. - - Teceangl - -- What lies at the bottom of the ocean and twitches? A nervous wreck. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From whitemage at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 3 01:17:12 1999 From: whitemage at worldnet.att.net (James Hanke) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:17:12 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check, please. Message-ID: - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It check out alright. Didn't found one thing that would conflict with it within the O and A. Ld Morgan MacAlpin - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It check out alright.  Didn't found one thing that would conflict with it within the O and A.

Ld Morgan MacAlpin - --------------232466CFF65651D499B878DF-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Tue Aug 3 11:01:59 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:01:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Graveships Message-ID: I'm creating an names index from a book of period church court records. Talan is helping me with some of the entries. Here's one of his replies that I found interesting. So, how to create a branch type? :-) - --Perronnelle Brian M. Scott wrote: > > The graveship of Thorne for concealment of these fines > > > What is "Thorne"? > > According to the OED, in Yorkshire a graveship was a district, either > a subdivision of a large parish or a collection of several small > parishes, so called because it was at some point administered by a > grave or collection of graves. A grave was an administrative > official elected by the inhabitants of a township. It would seem > that here must be the name of the graveship, i.e., > essentially a place-name. (Ekwall confirms that there is a Thorne in > the West Riding.) > > Talan ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 4 09:32:50 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:32:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC Content-Type: text/plain Greetings all, I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I proceed. Device : Azure, a pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent and sable. (I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this right. The idea is three stars white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue field with a white pale.) Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable. The badge seems to good to be true, but by all examinations I can make I'm clear. The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's different from the other registered mullets due to the rules regarding the number of points. I would appreciate help with this, as I intend to register them within the month and would hate to look dumb and have my own arms come back in conflict. Timothy of Glastonbury - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict Check

Greetings = all,

I would really = appreciate it if someone would check the following two items (a device = and a badge) for conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them = clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed.

Device : Azure, a = pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent = and sable.
(I am not 100% = positive I've blazoned this right.  The idea is three stars = white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue field = with a white pale.)

Badge : (Fieldless) = A mullet sable.

The badge seems to = good to be true, but by all examinations I can make I'm clear.  = The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's = different from the other registered mullets due to the rules regarding = the number of points.

I would appreciate = help with this, as I intend to register them within the month and would = hate to look dumb and have my own arms come back in = conflict.

Timothy of = Glastonbury


- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDE96.C9B41CBC-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From superboy at lsh.org Wed Aug 4 10:22:00 1999 From: superboy at lsh.org (R. Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:22:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following = two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can = and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict = Check

I would really = appreciate it if=20 someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) = for=20 conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them clear of = conflict, but=20 I want to be certain before I proceed.

 

- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEDE73.F3EC2F60-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From superboy at lsh.org Wed Aug 4 10:30:26 1999 From: superboy at lsh.org (R. Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:30:26 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guh. Please accept my apologies and my SINCERE HATRED OF OUTLOOK EXPRESS at = times. As I was trying to say: I am not a wizard of conflict checks (yet, anyway), but they both look = clear. I love the badge; you just don't see enough of that kind of = thing (which is why there don't seem to be any conflicts, I guess). As for the blazon of the device, hmm. I envision what you want. I look = forward to a more expert book herald telling us the right way (or that = might well be it). While I'm in the neighborhood, I'm in the same position as good Timothy; = I intend to register the following. The first one is slightly controversial, = perhaps, and I'd enjoy (er, is that the word?) commentary as well. Device: Grilled gules and Or, on a bend argent a garden rose azure slipped and = leaved proper. Badge: (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. (You see why I liked Timothy's proposed badge, hee.) Notice my assumptions: (1) that grillage will fly, despite being totally = and utterly unused in the SCA as far as I can tell. It is in the picdic = as I recall. I could of course go fretty but I like grillage. :) (2) = that garden rose is a CD from the heraldic rose of Tudor fame. Thoughts? Sorry for hijacking my response to you, Timothy. :) Tighearnach mac Morgain Shire of Mooneschadowe -----Original Message----- From: Rayburn, Timothy To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:34 AM Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check =20 =20 Greetings all,=20 I would really appreciate it if someone would check the following = two items (a device and a badge) for conflicts. I have done what I can = and find them clear of conflict, but I want to be certain before I = proceed. Device : Azure, a pale argent and in chevron enhanced three mullets = counterchanged argent and sable. (I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this right. The idea is three = stars white-black-white in a raised chevron formation across a blue = field with a white pale.) Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable.=20 The badge seems to good to be true, but by all examinations I can = make I'm clear. The automatic CD for Fieldless is the reason it works, = and it's different from the other registered mullets due to the rules = regarding the number of points. I would appreciate help with this, as I intend to register them = within the month and would hate to look dumb and have my own arms come = back in conflict. Timothy of Glastonbury=20 =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal Conflict = Check
Guh.
 
Please accept my apologies and my SINCERE HATRED OF = OUTLOOK=20 EXPRESS at times.
 
As I was trying to say:
 
I am not a wizard of conflict checks (yet, anyway), = but they=20 both look clear.  I love the badge; you just don't see enough of = that kind=20 of thing (which is why there don't seem to be any conflicts, I=20 guess).
 
As for the blazon of the device, hmm.  I = envision what=20 you want.  I look forward to a more expert book herald telling us = the right=20 way (or that might well be it).
 
While I'm in the neighborhood, I'm in the same = position as=20 good Timothy; I intend
to register the following.  The first one is = slightly=20 controversial, perhaps, and I'd
enjoy (er, is that the word?) commentary as = well.
 
Device:
Grilled gules and Or, on a bend argent a garden rose = azure=20 slipped and leaved proper.
 
Badge:
(Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved = proper=20 bendwise.
 
(You see why I liked Timothy's proposed badge,=20 hee.)
 
Notice my assumptions: (1) that grillage will fly, = despite=20 being totally and utterly unused in the SCA as far as I can tell.  = It is in=20 the picdic as I recall.  I could of course go fretty but I like = grillage.=20 :) (2) that garden rose is a CD from the heraldic
rose of Tudor fame.
 
Thoughts?  Sorry for hijacking my response to = you,=20 Timothy. :)
 
Tighearnach mac Morgain
Shire of Mooneschadowe
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Rayburn, Timothy <TRayburn at insurdata.com>
= To:=20 'heralds at ansteorra.org'=20 <heralds at Ansteorra.ORG>
Date:=20 Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:34 AM
Subject: ANSTHRLD = - -=20 Personal Conflict Check

Greetings = all,

I would really = appreciate it if=20 someone would check the following two items (a device and a badge) = for=20 conflicts.  I have done what I can and find them clear of = conflict, but=20 I want to be certain before I proceed.

Device : Azure, a = pale argent and=20 in chevron enhanced three mullets counterchanged argent and=20 sable.
(I am not 100% positive I've blazoned this = right. =20 The idea is three stars white-black-white in a raised chevron = formation=20 across a blue field with a white pale.)

Badge : (Fieldless) A = mullet=20 sable.

The badge seems to = good to be true,=20 but by all examinations I can make I'm clear.  The automatic CD = for=20 Fieldless is the reason it works, and it's different from the other=20 registered mullets due to the rules regarding the number of=20 points.

I would appreciate = help with this,=20 as I intend to register them within the month and would hate to look = dumb=20 and have my own arms come back in conflict.

Timothy of = Glastonbury =


- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BEDE75.212D2820-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 11:42:30 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:42:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: Please turn off MIME and HTML copies of your messages -- please just send plain text. > Grilled gules and Or Not a well-formed blazon fragment. Grillage is a charge on a field (like a fret / fretty), so it'd have to be "Gules grillage Or" or "Or grillage gules". It has been registered only once, for the arms of Forestgate. I see no reason why it would not be registerable > (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. Since garden roses aren't period, can I convince you to go with a normal heraldic rose? Alys of the Midnight Rose, "Or, a rose slipped and leaved azure". 1 CD for fieldless. Garden roses are treated in the SCA as artistic variants of heraldic roses. Slipping and leaving is not a CD, although it is blazonable. I don't know that "bendwise" would apply to the rose, and I couldn't tell if a garden rose were rotated anyway. Conflict. I'm not sure what Johnathan [sic!] Crusadene Whitewolf's rose looks like in "Sable, a rose azure imbrued gules". It has drops of blood somehow, but it's not clear to me that it's a semy of gouts (which would be a CD) or just a few drops dangling from petals (which probably wouldn't be). > Badge : (Fieldless) A mullet sable. There is a precedent calling conflict between a four-pointed mullet and a compass star (because the little points are, well, little) so this might conflict with the Ansteorran Chronicler's badge, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points distilling gouttes". Barn and Kat and the then-chronicler gave permission for this to be released, but I didn't follow up on it. It'd open up some heraldic space if it were done. I don't currently have my mullet-difference research to hand; I'll get back to y'all on point-counting. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 11:57:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:57:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: I found my notes on mullet differences. In brief, I think "multi-pointed" means "more points than usual". Mullet and estoile-like critters are not substantially different, so neither X.2 nor X.4.j.ii applies to such differences. Quick summary of common cases: A == standard mullets B == standard estoiles C == multi-pointed mullets like suns and compass stars A & B, B & C, and A & C each have CDs from each other. Step away from those patterns and the CD tends to shatter. Cs don't have CDs from each other. A summary table from the precedents below [here snipped]: Mullet of 3 points: illegal of 4 points versus caltrop: no CD (identical) compass star: no CD (long rays in same places) mullet of 5 points: no CD of 5 points versus estoile: CD sun: CD mullet of 6 points: no CD mullet of 7 points: no CD mullet of 8 points: CD compass star: CD spur rowels versus estoiles: CD (pierced mullets) multipointed versus sun: no CD of 8 points versus sun: no CD mullet of 5 gtr & 5 lsr: no CD (10 pointed mullet) estoile: CD estoile of 7 rays: no CD compass star versus sun: no CD ("multi-pointed mullet") versus estoile: CD Estoile of 5 rays versus estoile of 8 rays: no CD of 6 rays versus sun: CD of 8 rays versus sun: no CD multipointed versus sun: no CD Comet == estoile with a tail, hence a variant estoile Since there's no CD for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor Leonard, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a goutte.". 1 CD for fieldless, but since hers is tinctureless you can't get any other tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD. Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed) mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12) On the other hand, one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD between a compass star and a mullet of four points was that neither is period, so maybe it would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's badge. Daniel "catch a falling star" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 4 12:20:06 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12 Content-Type: text/plain Daniel, Perhaps I simply do not understand what is meant by "distilling a goutte". I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete removal of would net me another CD. Would you mind explaining this? Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: tmcd at jump.net [SMTP:tmcd at jump.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:57 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check > Since there's no CD for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor > Leonard, "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a > goutte.". 1 CD for fieldless, but since hers is tinctureless you > can't get any other tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD. > > Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between > mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed) > mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12) > > On the other hand, one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD > between a compass star and a mullet of four points was that neither is > period, so maybe it would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's > badge. > > Daniel "catch a falling star" de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check

Daniel,

Perhaps I simply do = not understand what is meant by "distilling a goutte".  = I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete removal of = would net me another CD.  Would you mind explaining = this?

Timothy

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   tmcd at jump.net [SMTP:tmcd at jump.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:57 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict = Check =20
    Since there's no CD = for 4 versus 5 points, you hit the dreaded Eleanor
    Leonard, = "(Tinctureless) A mullet of four points distilling a
    goutte.".  1 CD for fieldless, but since hers = is tinctureless you
    can't get any other = tincture CD, and the goutte is not worth a CD.

        = Current precedent does not grant a CD for the difference between
        = mullets of four points and the default (five-pointed)
        = mullet. (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR November 1994, p. 12)

    On the other hand, = one part of the reasoning for not giving a CD
    between a compass = star and a mullet of four points was that neither is
    period, so maybe it = would be clear of the Ansteorran chronicler's
    badge.

    Daniel "catch a = falling star" de Lincolia
    --
             &nb= sp;          *** NEW = PERSONAL ADDRESS ***
    Tim McDaniel is = tmcd at jump.net; if that fail,
        = tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts.
        = tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away.
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEDEAE.1C378E12-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 12:47:12 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:47:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: Timothy wrote, > Perhaps I simply do not understand what is meant by "distilling a > goutte". I took this to be a Tertiary charge, which the complete > removal of would net me another CD. Would you mind explaining this? "Distilling a gout" is with a drop dangling from some projection or otherwise on the edge. It thus counts as a maintained charge and worth no CD. That is a rather long-standing precedent. For more philosophy: it may be objected that if such a charge be simply moved inward, it would become a tertiary and worth a difference, even though it change not at all in size, color, et cetera. Nevertheless, there is (I gather) period evidence that maintained charges were not, well, maintained: that arms for the same person might or might not be shown with the maintained charge -- but I presume that such has not been shewn for tertiaries. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 14:37:21 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:37:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: [His personal mail copied to the list with permission. My reply will be in the next message.] From: "R. Smith" [...] >> Grilled gules and Or > >Not a well-formed blazon fragment. Grillage is a charge on a field >(like a fret / fretty), so it'd have to be "Gules grillage Or" or "Or >grillage gules". Yes, I knew better but had my brain half-engaged. Thanks. Gules grillage Or is indeed what I meant. >It has been registered only once, for the arms of Forestgate. I see >no reason why it would not be registerable Good, good. >> (Fieldless) A garden rose azure slipped and leaved proper bendwise. > >Since garden roses aren't period, can I convince you to go with a >normal heraldic rose? Yes; you just did. :) >Alys of the Midnight Rose, "Or, a rose slipped and leaved azure". 1 >CD for fieldless. Garden roses are treated in the SCA as artistic >variants of heraldic roses. Slipping and leaving is not a CD, >although it is blazonable. I don't know that "bendwise" would apply >to the rose, and I couldn't tell if a garden rose were rotated >anyway. Conflict. > >I'm not sure what Johnathan [sic!] Crusadene Whitewolf's rose looks >like in "Sable, a rose azure imbrued gules". It has drops of blood >somehow, but it's not clear to me that it's a semy of gouts (which >would be a CD) or just a few drops dangling from petals (which >probably wouldn't be). My reworked ideas, and if you would take a moment to comment on them I would be extremely grateful (actually, I'm already quite grateful for your help): Device: Gules grillage Or, on a bend argent three roses purpure. Badge: (Fieldless) In bend three roses purpure. My lady quite insightfully asked how the heck you tell that they are in bend with no point of reference. My goal here is simply to get the suckers in a line, whereas "(Fieldless) Three roses purpure" would get me two and one, if I recall correctly. Any help for the hapless? Thanks already, Tighearnach mac Morgain Shire of Mooneschadowe ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 4 14:43:17 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:43:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Personal Conflict Check Message-ID: "R. Smith" wrote: ... > Device: > > Gules grillage Or, on a bend argent three roses purpure. I don't know that grillage was used in period. Fretty certainly was, even from an early date. Purpure was quite rare, only a little common in Iberia -- 8%, I think? Both of them are registerable, though. The primary charge is the grill. The bend overall is an overall charge. > Badge: > > (Fieldless) In bend three roses purpure. Insta-boing, I'm afraid. Fieldless badges cannot have disconnected charges. (A pawprint and an ermine spot count as connected, by the way.) If you redesign to have an overall charge on a fieldless badge, please be aware that it is allowed to be done only if the area of intersection is small, like a spear and a sword. Since overall charges on badges were very rare at best in period, I advise against it if possible. > My lady quite insightfully asked how the heck you tell that they are > in bend with no point of reference. You have as much of a frame of reference as any other piece of armory. If you were to display "Gules, a fess Or" on a roundel, lozenge, delf, or some such, you'd have the same problems, or lack of them. I bear "A mascle gules" as a badge; whatever I put it on defines top-and-down to distinguish it from "A delf voided gules". Daniel <> de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 5 18:14:46 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:14:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: (Sorry for the duplication, Tangwystyl, AElfwyn, et al.) Yes, it's stunt documentation (or stunt shootdown, I suspect). Yes, I would love a quick turnaround; if, as I suspect, the name is utterly unusable, I'd like to stop the write-in campaign ASAP. Indeed, I'm sorry for asking under such conditions. This came across the Ansteorran Southern Regional list just now. The vote he's referring to is a preference ballot for a southern regional name, probably to thereby become the frontrunner for a southern principality name if-and-when. "James Crouchet" wrote, on southern at Ansteorra.ORG at Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0500, with subject Late Entry: > Hello. Don Dor? here. > > A small group of Southerners, including me, were recently standing > around complaining that the suggested names for this region were > bad, twinky, un-period, and generally unacceptable. (Un-period?!? Grrrr! Arrrg! We cut it off at the 3-out-of-5-star periodness-rating level. One name is a period town in Italy!) > name that really seemed to work. It followed a period naming > practice, (which of course he didn't describe) > it avoided the compound noun twink (like "Lion's Liver"), actually > means something to the Southern Region AND connects us to Ansteorra. > It would even serve well as a name for a principality or kingdom, > should that ever be an issue. Noble heraldry would be easy to > design for this name. What's more, it is short, plain English and > easily pronounceable. ... > In particular, we got Baroness Mari's ok (which is important, > considering the name). > > What is the name? Lioness. Bjornsborg's "Lioness" tourney is past, That annual tourney is usually spelled "Lyonesse". It is a high-persona event. In it, Lyonesse is said to rise from the sea for a few days. The Baroness of Bjornsborg (in the center of the southern region) is called Lady Lyonesse for the duration and is the hostess. There is fighting at the barrier, I believe. I understand that there are plenty of examples of period people in tourneys pretending to be knights of the Round Table and other worthies (or Worthies), so this sounds like a fine period tourney notion to me. It is pronounced here as "LEE ahn ess" or "LEE ah ness" -- hard for me to tell. I assume they want the English word "Lioness". So: I gather that Lyonesse is a mythical sunken island somewhere off Britain, so an attempted registration of Lyonesse would therefore bounce by Admin Handbook III.A.6, Names of Significant Geographical Locations from Literary Sources. Is it at all likely that period people would have named a real place Lyonesse, Atlantis, or such? (Any other examples come to mind of lands believed lost by period people?) If "Lioness", I have the usual stunt request: can anyone think of a language + culture + time where that might be a place-name? Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 5 21:30:08 1999 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:30:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: Apologies, I haven't been keeping up, but what happened to "Levgorod" for the southern region, which I thought sounded rather cool (and like a place, not a species)? - --Alisandre, who's been off having babies and not paying much attention Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > (Sorry for the duplication, Tangwystyl, AElfwyn, et al.) > > Yes, it's stunt documentation (or stunt shootdown, I suspect). > Yes, I would love a quick turnaround; if, as I suspect, the name is > utterly unusable, I'd like to stop the write-in campaign ASAP. > Indeed, I'm sorry for asking under such conditions. > > This came across the Ansteorran Southern Regional list just now. The > vote he's referring to is a preference ballot for a southern regional > name, probably to thereby become the frontrunner for a southern > principality name if-and-when. > > "James Crouchet" wrote, on southern at Ansteorra.ORG at Thu, > 5 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0500, with subject Late Entry: > > Hello. Don Dor? here. > > > > A small group of Southerners, including me, were recently standing > > around complaining that the suggested names for this region were > > bad, twinky, un-period, and generally unacceptable. > > (Un-period?!? Grrrr! Arrrg! We cut it off at the 3-out-of-5-star > periodness-rating level. One name is a period town in Italy!) > > > name that really seemed to work. It followed a period naming > > practice, > > (which of course he didn't describe) > > > it avoided the compound noun twink (like "Lion's Liver"), actually > > means something to the Southern Region AND connects us to Ansteorra. > > It would even serve well as a name for a principality or kingdom, > > should that ever be an issue. Noble heraldry would be easy to > > design for this name. What's more, it is short, plain English and > > easily pronounceable. > ... > > In particular, we got Baroness Mari's ok (which is important, > > considering the name). > > > > What is the name? Lioness. Bjornsborg's "Lioness" tourney is past, > > That annual tourney is usually spelled "Lyonesse". It is a > high-persona event. In it, Lyonesse is said to rise from the sea for > a few days. The Baroness of Bjornsborg (in the center of the southern > region) is called Lady Lyonesse for the duration and is the hostess. > There is fighting at the barrier, I believe. I understand that there > are plenty of examples of period people in tourneys pretending to be > knights of the Round Table and other worthies (or Worthies), so this > sounds like a fine period tourney notion to me. It is pronounced here > as "LEE ahn ess" or "LEE ah ness" -- hard for me to tell. I assume > they want the English word "Lioness". > > So: I gather that Lyonesse is a mythical sunken island somewhere off > Britain, so an attempted registration of Lyonesse would therefore > bounce by Admin Handbook III.A.6, Names of Significant Geographical > Locations from Literary Sources. Is it at all likely that period > people would have named a real place Lyonesse, Atlantis, or such? > (Any other examples come to mind of lands believed lost by period > people?) > > If "Lioness", I have the usual stunt request: can anyone think of a > language + culture + time where that might be a place-name? > > Daniel de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 5 22:22:42 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - "Lioness" Message-ID: Alisandre wrote: << Apologies, I haven't been keeping up, but what happened to "Levgorod" for the southern region, which I thought sounded rather cool (and like a place, not a species)? >> I don't have a ballot to hand, but Levgorod was ranked as three stars on the registerability scale, so it should be on the ballot. As for species and lion parts: the only such choices were L{o:}wenfeld, L{o:}wenhaven, and L{o:}wenland in German, Levgorod, and Campoleone. None of those have body parts. > Alisandre, who's been off having babies Please get your priorities straight: SCA first. You should have done like a software company -- delay the ship date. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 12 20:03:35 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Seeking permission from Isobel Margaret de Forbeys Message-ID: Greetings unto the assembled heralds of the fair kingdom of Ansteorra. A friend of mine and fellow herald wishes to locate Isobel Margaret de Forbeys to request permission to conflict with her device. She is of your lands, would any know how to get ahold of her? I would be most appreciative if anyone who can help would email me, please. In service to heraldry throughout the Knowne World, - - Lady Teceangl Bach An Tir tierna at agora.rdrop.com - -- What lies at the bottom of the ocean and twitches? A nervous wreck. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Thu Aug 12 23:34:16 1999 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:34:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: Greetings. The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It discusses an organizational change of the college and extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September 27. In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do so. Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. Tired but happy they are mailed, Etienne Obelisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Fri Aug 13 04:37:34 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 99 06:37:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: Thanks for all your hard work! You do a great job every month and it is appricated. The Gazette always looks wonderful. - -Meredudd At 01:34 AM 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings. > >The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The >ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. > >Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It >discusses an organizational change of the college and heed!> extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September 27. > >In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette >online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work >allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do so. > >Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found >three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so >critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you >wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. > >Tired but happy they are mailed, >Etienne >Obelisk > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Fri Aug 13 12:20:13 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:20:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Gazette Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0 Content-Type: text/plain While I normally try not to "waste bandwith" with statements like this, I will this time. The entire staff of the College of Heralds works very hard to keep things moving smoothly to almost no applaud. To everyone who puts countless hours into the Gazette, the ELOI or any of the other publications/paperwork that keep this all going, Vivat! Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net] > Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 6:38 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Gazette > > Thanks for all your hard work! You do a great job every month and it is > appricated. The Gazette always looks wonderful. > > -Meredudd > > At 01:34 AM 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Greetings. > > > >The August Gazette mailed tonight. This is much later than usual. The > >ILoI is also much bigger than usual, 8 pages. > > > >Please read the letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives. It > >discusses an organizational change of the college and >heed!> extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September > 27. > > > >In the past, for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the > Gazette > >online so that people can begin commenting earlier. If time at work > >allows, I will do this for this weekend. I will announce, here, if I do > so. > > > >Also, since I have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found > >three flaws in the roster published this month. Because the roster is so > >critical, I will publish another with corrections in September. If you > >wish to add last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20. > > > >Tired but happy they are mailed, > >Etienne > >Obelisk > > > > > >========================================================================= > === > >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Gazette

While I normally try = not to "waste bandwith" with statements like this, I will = this time.

The entire staff of = the College of Heralds works very hard to keep things moving smoothly = to almost no applaud.  To everyone who puts countless hours into = the Gazette, the ELOI or any of the other publications/paperwork that = keep this all going, Vivat!

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Friday, August 13, 1999 6:38 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Gazette

    Thanks for all your = hard work!  You do a great job every month and it is
    appricated.  = The Gazette always looks wonderful.

    -Meredudd

    At 01:34 AM = 8/13/1999 -0500, you wrote:
    >Greetings.
    >
    >The August = Gazette mailed tonight.  This is much later than usual.  = The
    >ILoI is also = much bigger than usual, 8 pages.
    >
    >Please read the = letter from Star Principal when your Gazette arrives.  It
    >discusses an = organizational change of the college and <commenters pay
    >heed!> = extends the deadline for commentary on this Gazette to September = 27.
    >
    >In the past, = for a really late Gazette, I have posted a PDF of the Gazette
    >online so that = people can begin commenting earlier.  If time at work
    >allows, I will = do this for this weekend.  I will announce, here, if I do = so.
    >
    >Also, since I = have copied the Gazette and mailed it, I have already found
    >three flaws in = the roster published this month.  Because the roster is so
    >critical, I = will publish another with corrections in September.  If you
    >wish to add = last minute changes, please have them to me by August 20.
    >
    >Tired but happy = they are mailed,
    >Etienne
    >Obelisk
    >
    >
    >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >Go to = http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.
    >
    >

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to = http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE5C0.A0E44AB0-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Aug 15 13:57:01 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:57:01 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Seeking permission from Isobel Margaret de Forbeys Message-ID: In a message dated 8/12/99 10:04:12 PM Central Daylight Time, tierna at agora.rdrop.com writes: > She is of your lands, > would any know how to get ahold of her? I have her file in front of me and will answer privately. Kathri, Asterisk Herald and Keeper of the Kingdom Files (who is so pleased when one is really where it's supposed to be!) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Tue Aug 17 22:48:37 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:48:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: I was reflecting on my summer of repeated attacks of real life, and realized that I really should be prepared in case something were to happen and someone needed to come in and take over. Although I have a drop-dead deputy (Hi, Alisandre), she managed to have a real life attack concurrent to my own. So, in a fit of...well, you figure it out, and tell me...something, I drafted the following, which I am going to put on an envelope taped to the boxes, with the legend OPEN IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. Did I leave anything out? AElfwyn ************************************ Since you are reading this, I am heraldically dead. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take over as acting baronial herald. Some things you should know: 1) Send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name and address of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. Look for the binder with the most recent editions of the Ansteorran Gazette; they all have dates on the spine. 2) While you've got the Ansteorran Gazette out (AG for short), look at the list of names on the back. This will tell you all the essential info for sending stuff in; who to send it to, how many copies, how much $$ to send, etc. The only missing info is how to make out the check (and it must be from the baronial account, get checks from the reeve): Kingdom of Ansteorra--SCA, Inc. 3) All of the forms are found in the small, black, beat-up filing box that is missing the handle on top. (Hey, that's how it looked when I got it.) All of the instructions for filling out the forms are on the back. All the current files with things to be submitted, appealed, etc. are in that same small file. 4) All of the rest of the things you need to know are contained in the books and binders (wait, some of them are mine...guess you can't take it with you) that fill the remaining five bins. Commit them to memory. (Wait! that was humor!) 5) If you have email access, subscribe to SCAHRLDS and ANSTHRLDS as soon as possible. Instructions are on the web at The folks on these lists are great and will give you help whenever you ask. Their collective years of experience probably are in the 1000 year range. God have mercy on your soul (and mine, while we're at it!). AElfwyn aet Gyrwum ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Aug 18 06:40:59 1999 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:40:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: AElfwyn, That should just about scare them off :-) No, that looks very good. The one thing I would ask is that step "0" should be contact the regional herald and not wait for to send a monthly report. We really do like to know as soon as changes happen. - --Francois - -----Original Message----- From: Jodi McMaster [mailto:jmcmaste at accd.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:49 AM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency I was reflecting on my summer of repeated attacks of real life, and realized that I really should be prepared in case something were to happen and someone needed to come in and take over. Although I have a drop-dead deputy (Hi, Alisandre), she managed to have a real life attack concurrent to my own. So, in a fit of...well, you figure it out, and tell me...something, I drafted the following, which I am going to put on an envelope taped to the boxes, with the legend OPEN IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. Did I leave anything out? AElfwyn ************************************ Since you are reading this, I am heraldically dead. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take over as acting baronial herald. Some things you should know: 1) Send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name and address of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. Look for the binder with the most recent editions of the Ansteorran Gazette; they all have dates on the spine. 2) While you've got the Ansteorran Gazette out (AG for short), look at the list of names on the back. This will tell you all the essential info for sending stuff in; who to send it to, how many copies, how much $$ to send, etc. The only missing info is how to make out the check (and it must be from the baronial account, get checks from the reeve): Kingdom of Ansteorra--SCA, Inc. 3) All of the forms are found in the small, black, beat-up filing box that is missing the handle on top. (Hey, that's how it looked when I got it.) All of the instructions for filling out the forms are on the back. All the current files with things to be submitted, appealed, etc. are in that same small file. 4) All of the rest of the things you need to know are contained in the books and binders (wait, some of them are mine...guess you can't take it with you) that fill the remaining five bins. Commit them to memory. (Wait! that was humor!) 5) If you have email access, subscribe to SCAHRLDS and ANSTHRLDS as soon as possible. Instructions are on the web at The folks on these lists are great and will give you help whenever you ask. Their collective years of experience probably are in the 1000 year range. God have mercy on your soul (and mine, while we're at it!). AElfwyn aet Gyrwum ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 07:12:59 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:12:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: Bordelon, Wendel wrote: > >The > one thing I would ask is that step "0" should be contact the regional herald > and not wait for to send a monthly report. Okay. I rewrote the paragraph as follows: Some things you should know: 1) You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. Call this officer ASAP and then write a catch-up report to mail as follow-up. Send a copy to the seneschal; if you can't find my old reports, ask the seneschal for a copy of one. The title for the regional herald is Twilight Herald; the name, address, and phone number of the current holder of the office is listed quarterly in the Ansteorran Gazette. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 08:29:02 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:29:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: AElfwyn planned for death by writing: > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. No, not necessarily (suppose you collapse on the 9th?), and that's not the point. The regional wants to know about any change ASAP, with as much warning as possible, regardless of report schedules. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 10:31:48 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:31:48 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > > AElfwyn planned for death by writing: > > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. > > No, not necessarily (suppose you collapse on the 9th?) *snicker* Yeah, someone's gonna notice by then. , and that's not > the point. The regional wants to know about any change ASAP, with as > much warning as possible, regardless of report schedules. > Oh, I understood that--guess I didn't get that across--I was just trying (okay, just trying) to do so in a humorous vein. Aelfuyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 10:59:09 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:59:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of submissions Message-ID: Can somebody review with me how to figure out where a particular submission is once it has been sent to Kingdom? Thanks, AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Wed Aug 18 12:18:57 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:18:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of submissions Message-ID: Jodi McMaster wrote: > Can somebody review with me how to figure out where a particular > submission is once it has been sent to Kingdom? > > Thanks, > AElfwyn If it's been in the AG, I can look it up on the list I maintain. If it hasn't been in the AG yet, you can contact Asterisk to verify that she has received it. You can also post it to the list; there are a few people here that keep track of submissions. - --Perronnelle - -- Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 12:52:50 1999 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:52:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 13:28:29 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:28:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C Content-Type: text/plain Ah, Darius, thank you for posting this here, it reminded me that you asked me for that input. In my opinion a branch herald should be able to, without a book in front of him, associate real world colors (blue, green, gold, white) with tincture names for a device, including basic furs. They should be able to draw a bend, a bend sinister, a chief, a bordure, a base, a fess and a pale. They should be able to know what the Ordinary and Armorial are and what they are used for. They should be able to give a basic flow of court. They should understand the different award levels (related to above). They should be able to identify, on sight, any Kingdom award. Given an OP they should be able to tell which awards a person has (with the possible exception of Baronial Service Orders which I still have to look up). And they should be able to name at least 2 other heralds in their region who they could inquire to if they had a question. Some might say this is a little bit rough for branch heralds (I openly admit I was wracking my brains for what appeared on the PE test when I took it), but if we are going to put in Heralds mostly at the Baronial+ levels now then they should be fairly qualified individuals. And there is absolutely nothing here that I couldn't take a brand new person to the Society and teach them in an afternoon. They may not have it commited to memory right away (depends on the individual) but they could be presented with the information and given handouts to be 'ready' by these qualifications within just a short time if they were interested. Timothy of Glastonbury "Var??? Vair??? Viar?? Vair! Yeah, that's it." Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:53 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > In service > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ah, Darius, thank = you for posting this here, it reminded me that you asked me for that = input.

In my opinion a = branch herald should be able to, without a book in front of him, = associate real world colors (blue, green, gold, white) with tincture = names for a device, including basic furs.

They should be able = to draw a bend, a bend sinister, a chief, a bordure, a base, a fess and = a pale.

They should be able = to know what the Ordinary and Armorial are and what they are used = for.

They should be able = to give a basic flow of court.

They should = understand the different award levels (related to above).

They should be able = to identify, on sight, any Kingdom award.

Given an OP they = should be able to tell which awards a person has (with the possible = exception of Baronial Service Orders which I still have to look = up).

And they should be = able to name at least 2 other heralds in their region who they could = inquire to if they had a question.

Some might say this = is a little bit rough for branch heralds (I openly admit I was wracking = my brains for what appeared on the PE test when I took it), but if we = are going to put in Heralds mostly at the Baronial+ levels now then = they should be fairly qualified individuals.  And there is = absolutely nothing here that I couldn't take a brand new person to the = Society and teach them in an afternoon.  They may not have it = commited to memory right away (depends on the individual) but they = could be presented with the information and given handouts to be = 'ready' by these qualifications within just a short time if they were = interested.

Timothy of = Glastonbury
"Var??? = Vair??? Viar?? Vair! Yeah, that's it."
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Darius and Monica = [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:53 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this = forum:

    "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

    In service
    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://= lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list = tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9B7.F436477C-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 13:10:59 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:10:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Darius and Monica wrote: > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > 1) How to get help: people and written sources; 2) How the CoH is structured; 3) How to extract necessary info from the AG; 4) How to start the submissions process; 5) How to organize baronial files--what do you need to keep, etc.; 6) How to prepare the forms 7) Basic name documentation and basic heraldry. Me, have opinions? Nah. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From marsha.greene at mpan.com Wed Aug 18 13:36:17 1999 From: marsha.greene at mpan.com (marsha.greene at mpan.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:17 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities that happen during the branch events: * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament events. * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their branch. Hillary Greenslade lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure =========================================================================== = Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Wed Aug 18 13:36:06 1999 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Darius wrote: >"What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" The short answer is......what it takes to perform the duties of their office. By taking this point of view, you first determine what is required of them, then make a list of the knowledge that is needed to perform those duties. Now as to what duties are required for branch heralds...well that can vary from kingdom to kingdom. For one point of view, I invite you to look at the article I have written, entitled: DUTIES OF A LOCAL HERALD. It is located at: http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Duties.htm Hope this helps somewhat. In Service to Crown, Kingdom and Society, Modar Neznanich 8th Baron of Forgotten Sea Saker Herald Emeritus Kingdom of Calontir =-=-=-=-=-= Some interesting SCA websites: Heraldry http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Heraldry.htm Heraldic Myths (Info to clear up misconceptions about SCA heraldry) http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Myths.htm Persona Research http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Persona1.htm Timeline http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Timeline.htm Medieval Games http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Games.htm Clothing/Garb http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Briana3.htm Medieval Cooking http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Jadwiga2.htm Thrown Weapons http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Thrown.htm Medieval Weapons http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Weapons.htm Medieval Armour http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Armour.htm Mongol History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Mongol.htm Knights Templar http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Sidon.htm Archery http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Welsh.htm Russian History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Russian.htm Tudor History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Tudor.htm Scottish History (Clan Menzies) http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Scots.htm Leathercraft http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Leather.htm Italian Renaissance History http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Italian.htm Medieval Fishing http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Fishing.htm Medieval Furniture http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Furniture.htm Woodworking http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Woodwork.htm Embroidery http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Embroid.htm Joan of Arc http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/JoA.htm Spices http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Spices.htm Medieval Vampire Lore http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Vampires.htm ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 14:05:51 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: The branch warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no? If so, I'd probably argue that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be hoped for, may not be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic training program in each barony to prepare folks to take over. In our barony, we've had lots of times where folks have had to simply take over and exigent circumstances existed where they could not get with someone in person to make sure they could demonstrate that they could do things with a book closed or do field heraldry. OJT occurred after the warranting--I'm an example of that process. Further, most of us are more inclined to one area of heraldry over another anyway. As a result, I strongly advocate emphasis on knowing how to get help, how to find out how to do things, how to use the forms, how to get organized, etc. over already having mastered certain aspects, and I think the old way of open book testing was a good way of demonstrating that. Otherwise the learning curve can be too long to fill posts and submissions and other bits can be left in the vacuum. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 14:17:27 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:17:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE Content-Type: text/plain Hmm.... This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two exams? There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities > that > happen during the branch events: > * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament > events. > * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their > branch. > Hillary Greenslade > > > > > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > In service > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > = > = > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Hmm....

This just came to = me.  Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or = have) the PE exam as well.  So I ask the 50 billion dollar = question : Why have two exams?

There may be wisdom = in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on = it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

Timothy

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   marsha.greene at mpan.com = [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good ideas.   I might add some activities = that
    happen during the = branch events:
    *   Be = able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament
    events.
    *   Be = able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at = their
    branch.
    Hillary = Greenslade




    lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we need to know?




    As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this = forum:

    "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

    In service
    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    =3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.






    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BE.CB2520FE-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 14:21:04 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:21:04 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C Content-Type: text/plain > -----Original Message----- > From: Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:06 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > The branch warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no? If so, > I'd probably argue that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be > hoped for, may not be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic > training program in each barony to prepare folks to take over. > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. Second to that should be seeing to it that your duties in the position are done. Yes, I mean that, because if you at least train your replacement well then when you're booted by your regional for not filing reports there's a good choice to replace you. > AElfwyn > Timothy of Glastonbury - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:06 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    The branch = warranting test is for baronial heralds to take, no?  If = so,
    I'd probably argue = that some of the suggestions advanced, while to be
    hoped for, may not = be possible unless you can ensure an ongoing heraldic
    training program in = each barony to prepare folks to take over. 

    [Tim = Rayburn]  Training someone to be your replacement should be the = primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children.  = Second to that should be seeing to it that your duties in the position = are done.  Yes, I mean that, because if you at least train your = replacement well then when you're booted by your regional for not = filing reports there's a good choice to replace you.

    AElfwyn

    Timothy of = Glastonbury

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9BF.4D1C710C-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From the_one_true_roy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 14:43:21 1999 From: the_one_true_roy at yahoo.com (Roy Heath) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > The branch pursuivant needs to know, at a bare minimum, how to deal with the administrative requirements of the office, and how to organize heraldic activities for the local group. It's nice if the local officer actually has an interest in the science of heraldry, but not necessary. If they can fill out the paperwork, stay on top of the reporting, and ensure that heraldic activities are being handled properly in their group; then we should thank our lucky stars. Let's examine the local job a little more closely: What do the local groups need? Most of the populace simply needs someone who can help them prepare their submission forms and send them to kingdom correctly. Most groups don't have a good heraldic library, so it isn't fair to expect them to do a lot of consultation. Just make sure that the money goes to the local treasurer and the checkf for the submissions goes to kingdom with the right number of forms and photocopies. For events, there is a need for heralds to make announcements and to organize court if it is to be held; but there is no requirement that these jobs be done by the local. I and many other heralds enjoy doing court, but some folks don't. As long as the local makes certain that it is organized, it doesn't matter who does it. Arguments can certainly be raised that there are other valid duties for the local office, but these are the only ones without which our stated requrements are not met. Sincerely, Erc _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 14:39:24 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:39:24 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: AHHHH! Now to another matter at hand. First: The format of the rewriten class will not be lecture then have a test. It will be a teaching session/workshop where in the instructor will go over the information and work with those taking the class to fillout a worksheet, which will remain with the person as sort of a crib note. so when they are acting as a branch officer, should the occaision arise that they need the information, they will be able to look back to that worksheet and either have the info on hand or know who to call. This class will not only be for Baronial officers. though branches below baronial level will soon no longer be required to have a herald, I feel that many will chose to maintain the position on their roster. So the class will also be for warrenting those officers as well. Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions right now. NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a little different. Darius >Hmm.... > >This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work >(or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : >Why have two exams? > >There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different >levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch >herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) > >Timothy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities > > that > > happen during the branch events: > > * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament > > events. > > * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their > > branch. > > Hillary Greenslade > > > > > > > > > > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > > > > > > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > > question to this forum: > > > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" > > > > In service > > Darius, Ld Tressure > > > > >========================================================================== > > = > > = > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list >tasks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >========================================================================== > > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list >tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Wed Aug 18 14:50:14 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:50:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?Not a bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic warrant would require. But we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of information very well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure that the basic information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the warrant applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant applicant does not have to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two tests again. Caelin -----Original Message----- From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn, Timothy Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG' Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Hmm.... This just came to me. Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as well. So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two exams? There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) Timothy -----Original Message----- From: marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas. I might add some activities that happen during the branch events: * Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament events. * Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held at their branch. Hillary Greenslade lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a question to this forum: "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure =========================================================================== = Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?
Not a=20 bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic = warrant=20
would=20 require. But we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of=20 information
very=20 well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure = that the=20
basic=20 information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the = warrant=20
applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must = know, but=20 the warrant applicant does not
have=20 to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two = tests=20 again.
 
Caelin
-----Original Message-----
From: = owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG=20 [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn,=20 Timothy
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 = PM
To:=20 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG'
Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we = need to=20 know?

Hmm....

This just came to = me.  Darius I=20 know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) the PE exam as=20 well.  So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why have two=20 exams?

There may be wisdom in = creating just=20 one exam, but requiring different levels of score on it depending on = if the=20 person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

Timothy

    -----Original Message----- =
    From:   marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com] =
    Sent:   = Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:        = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? =

    Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good=20 ideas.   I might add some activities that
    happen during the branch = events:=20
    *   Be = able to organize=20 and run field heraldry for branch tournament
    events.
    *   Be able to organize and be the court herald = for courts=20 held at their
    branch.
    Hillary=20 Greenslade




    lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we=20 need to know?




    As we begin to = rewrite the branch=20 warenting class, I would pose a
    question to this forum:

    "What does a branch = herald _need_=20 to know?"

    In service =
    Darius, Ld Tressure =

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
    =3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing=20 list tasks.






    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=20
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing=20 list tasks.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE999.BE24E670-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 15:12:07 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:12:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While seperating the exam into a required area and an extended area = does basiclly create two exams again, there is something else that is done = with this : It gives the new herald a look at what would be expected to = become an PaL (Pursuivant at Large). This might encourage them to come back and = try again once they learned some more. I know that for instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a juggernaut of a beast that people studied for years to master. When I finally did get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, relatively speaking, simple the exam was. Hardly something you'd study = for years at. Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this could = encourage people. But I could be wrong, Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Threlkeld [SMTP:rjt2 at airmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:50 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >=20 > Not a bad idea. It is true that we would expect a PE to know more = than a > basic warrant=20 > would require. But we would expect either of them to know certain = pieces > of information=20 > very well. So a 75% score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not > ensure that the=20 > basic information was known. Once you segregate the data into areas = which > the warrant=20 > applicant *must* know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant > applicant does not=20 > have to know (whew! I complicated that sentence) then we basically = have > two tests again. > =A0 > Caelin >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of Rayburn, Timothy > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM > To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG' > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > =09 > =09 >=20 > Hmm....=20 >=20 > This just came to me.=A0 Darius I know you have plans in the works = to > re-work (or have) the PE exam as well.=A0 So I ask the 50 billion = dollar > question : Why have two exams? >=20 > There may be wisdom in creating just one exam, but requiring > different levels of score on it depending on if the person is trying = to be > a Branch herald or PE (Herald-At-Large) >=20 > Timothy=20 >=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From:=A0=A0 marsha.greene at mpan.com [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]=20 > Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM=20 > To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 heralds at Ansteorra.ORG=20 > Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?=20 >=20 > Timothy and AElfwyn had some good ideas.=A0=A0 I might add some > activities that=20 > happen during the branch events:=20 > *=A0=A0 Be able to organize and run field heraldry for branch = tournament >=20 > events.=20 > *=A0=A0 Be able to organize and be the court herald for courts held = at > their=20 > branch.=20 > Hillary Greenslade=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > lSubject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a=20 > question to this forum:=20 >=20 > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?"=20 >=20 > In service=20 > Darius, Ld Tressure=20 >=20 > =09 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =3D=20 > =3D=20 > Go to to perform mailing > list tasks.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =09 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =3D=3D=20 > Go to to perform mailing > list tasks.=20 >=20 - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

While seperating the = exam into a required area and an extended area does basiclly create two = exams again, there is something else that is done with this : It gives = the new herald a look at what would be expected to become an PaL = (Pursuivant at Large).  This might encourage them to come back and = try again once they learned some more.

I know that for = instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a juggernaut of a = beast that people studied for years to master.  When I finally did = get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, relatively = speaking, simple the exam was.  Hardly something you'd study for = years at.  Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this could = encourage people.

But I could be = wrong,

Timothy of = Glastonbury


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Richard Threlkeld = [SMTP:rjt2 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:50 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Not a bad idea. It = is true that we would expect a PE to know more than a basic = warrant=20
    would require. But = we would expect either of them to know certain pieces of = information=20
    very well. So a 75% = score for warranting with a 95% for PE would not ensure that the =
    basic information = was known. Once you segregate the data into areas which the = warrant=20
    applicant *must* = know and stuff the PE must know, but the warrant applicant does = not=20
    have to know (whew! = I complicated that sentence) then we basically have two tests = again.
    =A0
    Caelin

      -----Original = Message-----
      From: owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG [mailto:owner-heralds at Ansteorra.ORG]On Behalf Of = Rayburn, Timothy
      Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:17 PM
      To: 'heralds at Ansteorra.ORG'
      Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

      Hmm....

      This just came to = me.=A0 Darius I know you have plans in the works to re-work (or have) = the PE exam as well.=A0 So I ask the 50 billion dollar question : Why = have two exams?

      There may be wisdom = in creating just one exam, but requiring different levels of score on = it depending on if the person is trying to be a Branch herald or PE = (Herald-At-Large)

      Timothy

      -----Original = Message-----
      From:=A0=A0 marsha.greene at mpan.com = [SMTP:marsha.greene at mpan.com]
      Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:36 PM
      To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
      Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

      Timothy and AElfwyn = had some good ideas.=A0=A0 I might add some activities that
      happen during = the branch events:
      *=A0=A0 Be able = to organize and run field heraldry for branch tournament
      events.
      *=A0=A0 Be able = to organize and be the court herald for courts held at = their
      branch.
      Hillary = Greenslade




      lSubject: ANSTHRLD - = What do we need to know? =




      As we begin to = rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a
      question to this = forum:

      "What does a = branch herald _need_ to know?"

      In = service
      Darius, Ld = Tressure

      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
      =3D
      Go to = <http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html> to perform mailing = list tasks.






      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
      Go to = <http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html> to perform mailing = list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9C6.6EA700EC-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 15:40:10 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:40:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not attend any of the available sessions to be trained. AElfwyn, eyewitness ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:44:07 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of > how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently > involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions > right now. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.... > NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday > morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few > days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant > ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a > little different. Since in period the title Pursuivant Extraordinary applied to officers of arms who did what (if I understand correctly) Pursuivants-at-Large are intended to do, is there some substantial reason why the title wasn't just transferred over? Or is this another case of "Let's do it the SCA way" without much reference to period practice? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:41:18 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Second: to the topic of "Pursuivants at Large" (PaL). the issue of > how to train and warrent PaL's is an ongoing discusion currently > involving Ld Star and Myself. Star is chewing on some suggestions > right now. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.... > NOTE: the absence of the title "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > This is intentional, and based on a deceision made at redtape sunday > morning during a meeting of attending heralds. More info in a few > days. As the duties of a PaL are and will be in many significant > ways different from a branch officer, the systems must needs be a > little different. Since in period the title Pursuivant Extraordinary applied to officers of arms who did what (if I understand correctly) Pursuivants-at-Large are intended to do, is there some substantial reason why the title wasn't just transferred over? Or is this another case of "Let's do it the SCA way" without much reference to period practice? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Wed Aug 18 15:52:42 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:52:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206 Content-Type: text/plain Ah, well this is true. This goes to the arguement that Heralds need a PR firm working for them. I know when I was first told that Heralds spent their time pouring over books to document names, I was not jumping to signup. Likewise I know some people who when they get told that the Herald has to be willing to stand up in front of lots of people and project (not yell, not scream) information they decide they're not interested. Being able to show that a 'Heralds job' is very diverse and we have experts in certain areas who are not experts in all of it is important, I feel. Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:40 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > > > > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, > I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that > you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor > baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone > will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not > attend any of the available sessions to be trained. > > AElfwyn, eyewitness > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ah, well this is = true.  This goes to the arguement that Heralds need a PR firm = working for them.  I know when I was first told that Heralds spent = their time pouring over books to document names, I was not jumping to = signup.  Likewise I know some people who when they get told that = the Herald has to be willing to stand up in front of lots of people and = project (not yell, not scream) information they decide they're not = interested.  Being able to show that a 'Heralds job'  is very = diverse and we have experts in certain areas who are not experts in all = of it is important, I feel.

Timothy of = Glastonbury

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jodi McMaster [SMTP:jmcmaste at accd.edu]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:40 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    > Rayburn, = Timothy wrote:
    >      [Tim Rayburn]  = Training someone to be your replacement should be
    >      the primary job of = any officer, Herald or Minister of Children.
    > 

    Granted.  But = you need someone who wants to train for it.  As you know,
    I'm trying to down = here.  But takers are slim.  All I'm saying is that
    you have to take = into consideration the realities of heraldically poor
    baronies, and = there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone
    will take over = who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did = not
    attend any of the = available sessions to be trained.

    AElfwyn, = eyewitness
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEE9CC.1A553206-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Wed Aug 18 15:51:15 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:51:15 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Donald Riney wrote: >As the duties of a PaL are and will be in > many significant ways different from a branch officer, the systems must > needs be a little different. > As I understand it, that's going to require far more autonomy and mastery of the subject, so I would think that this would be where the higher demonstration of ability would be required--perhaps with what is analogous to a certificate in a community college (oddly enough, I'm working on such a thing in real life). The Branch Warranting test is an entry level thing--like an SAT or GED of heraldry. You want them to eventually get a degree, the PaL designation. In order to encourage them to develop mastery across the curriculum, you have it broken down into segments and tested appropriately: for voice heraldry, a candidate requests and is observed in court and field by the appropriate members of the educational branch and given a certificate for mastering that. For Book Heraldry, participation and evaluation of the candidate by appropriate members of the heraldic community during one of the mass consultations. Since they've already taken the GED, we should be able to assume they have certain basic skills. Maybe an advanced conflict-checking test as a capstone. Just flinging out ideas, AElfwyn, who isn't as wed to her own ideas here as in the branch warranting ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Wed Aug 18 16:00:41 1999 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:00:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > [Tim Rayburn] Training someone to be your replacement should be > > the primary job of any officer, Herald or Minister of Children. > > Granted. But you need someone who wants to train for it. As you know, > I'm trying to down here. But takers are slim. All I'm saying is that > you have to take into consideration the realities of heraldically poor > baronies, and there's a good chance that once my warrant's up, someone > will take over who's doing it because "somebody had to," and who did not > attend any of the available sessions to be trained. In my previous Shire, I had much the same situation. I had about eight deputies--but only three that lived in the Shire. Two moved away, one dropped out, and now that I've moved, my Shire will quickly be facing suspension because they don'thave a herald. I wish that training my replacement could have been my primary job, but as the deputies that were the most interested in getting trained lived one on the other end of my principality and one in another kingdom, neither were really in a position to take over my office. - -Aryanhwy merch Catmael Herald-At-Large, Midrealm (gosh, is that a weird feeling after being Falcon's Keep Pursuivant for three and a half years!!!) - ------------------------------------------------ Sara L. Friedemann sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu - ------------------------------------------------ "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" --Yeats - ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From shauna at 2a.net Wed Aug 18 16:19:28 1999 From: shauna at 2a.net (Shauna) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:19:28 -0600 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Open in Case of Emergency Message-ID: > You'll need to send a monthly report to the Southern Regional Herald > by the 8th of the month. Since I'm dead, IT'S GOTTA BE OVERDUE. May I interject here? Thanks. Please, could we use some other word? Last year (almost exactly), then Golden Wing's wife got very ill very suddenly. She died quite unexpectedly two weeks before Crown (she was autocrat) and the day before their son's third birthday. He stepped down as Golden Wing almost immediately. She was also Seneschal of their group. As a result, I have been on a one-person (mostly) campaign to change the common wording to 'emergency deputy'. Their are _lots_ of reasons why an office changes hands suddenly. Thanks for letting me vent. Mistress Shauna of Carrick Point Golden Wing Principal Herald for Artemisia shauna at 2a.net gwherald at hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Wed Aug 18 17:23:32 1999 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee & Sosha) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:23:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: (snip) > I know that for instance I had heard rumors that the PE exam was a > juggernaut of a beast that people studied for years to master. When I > finally did get a look at the exam recently, I was suprised at how, > relatively speaking, simple the exam was. Hardly something you'd > study for years at. Even if it is one exam only in name, I think this > could encourage people. When I asked Da'ud to write up a new PE exam, it was with ulterior motives. The idea was to create a simple exam that anyone with a basic (to my way of thinking) knowledge of armory and a smattering of Ansteorran protocol could pass. This would, I thought, not only encourage those who might be interested in heraldry in all its facets to learn a bit more about heraldry, but also give the CoH a list of those displaying such interest, with an eye toward encouraging it. (Sort of the opposite of requiring gun registration for non-criminals.) The rumors of horrid beastliness came, I believe, mostly from people who took the test without following the advice given to would-be takers: know at least the very basics, go read Fox-Davies or something similarly beginnerlike, and pay attention at a couple of courts. Since I know of at least one knight who took it cold and passed easily with almost no previous experience, I can't say it was all that difficult. If the information is forthcoming, I too would be interested to know the reason of the change from PE to PaL. Not only is PE period, the style is still used mundanely today for various representative functions (i.e., Ambassador Extraordinary). I realize from my previous look around that several other kingdoms use it as an indication of lesser skill or apprenticeship, putting it between Coronet and full-fledged Pursuivant. But "they did it that way in (other Kingdom)" has seldom been reason to change our own traditions. Quite the opposite, in fact. :) Donal O Dochartaigh ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 17:52:07 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:52:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > "Pursuivants at Large" ... "Pusuivant Extrodinary" Since "extraordinary" in this sense is "Employed or sent upon an unusual or special service; as, an ambassador extraordinary.", and Da'ud or Tadhg informed me once that that he considered it an antonym to "officer in ordinary", "a prelate [or other officer?] exercising original jurisdiction over a specified territory or group", I don't think the semantic difference between the two terms is large. Daniel "here, have a nit" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 18:05:00 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:05:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Oh, a procedural nit on PE / PaL / Roving Attack Heralds / whatever: any existing warrants / designations of such should be explicitly voided en masse before the new ones start to be created. Amra in the Steppes has told me that he enjoys having a permanent warrant as PaL / PE / I forget what, and other people may have them as well. Hey, I *said* it was a nit! Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 18 19:43:34 1999 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:43:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > Oh, a procedural nit on PE / PaL / Roving Attack Heralds / whatever: > any existing warrants / designations of such should be explicitly > voided en masse before the new ones start to be created. Amra in the > Steppes has told me that he enjoys having a permanent warrant as PaL / > PE / I forget what, and other people may have them as well. Okay, I will jump in with a question. Eons ago, when Aureliane was Star, her criteria for Pursuivant involved competency in three of four areas of heraldry (voice, court, "book," or heraldic artistry). There was a written test for PE (which was then a rank below P), and she did a one-on-one oral exam, if you will, for the rank of pursuivant. Okay, she grilled me over a weekend or so sometime in 1986, and told me I'd made pursuivant (at large). Being Aureliane, she never got around to putting it in writing, so my letter of rank was signed by Adelicia in 1987. So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. > Hey, I *said* it was a nit! I know, I know, but now it's crawling on me! - --Alisandre "daring to disagree with Daniel" Oliphant ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Wed Aug 18 20:16:32 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:16:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > First: The format of the rewriten class will not be lecture then have a > test. It will be a teaching session/workshop where in the instructor will go > over the information and work with those taking the class to fillout a > worksheet, which will remain with the person as sort of a crib note. so when > they are acting as a branch officer, should the occaision arise that they > need the information, they will be able to look back to that worksheet and > either have the info on hand or know who to call. This class will not only > be for Baronial officers. though branches below baronial level will soon no > longer be required to have a herald, I feel that many will chose to maintain > the position on their roster. So the class will also be for warrenting those > officers as well. > Very basic starting information should be basic submission process and requirements, basic event heraldry organization, contact information for regional officer and Asterisk Herald. If you teach the process of getting a submission to Asterisk and have them contact the regional herald or Asterisk for research assistance that would cover getting the submission in. I would have a basic heraldry handout that the person taking the class could take with them for reference. It can take quite a while to learn the basic rules for submission and know them well enough to quote from memory. Also, if you teach the basic information of what the Event Herald is responsible for and who to contact for assistance in organizing the heraldry for the event; I think that most regional heralds will know or be able to arrange for help at the event. Not everyone is going to want to be the court herald or to do field heraldry. Most new heralds will have some trouble remembering the rules for submissions, much less how court is to be run. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 18 20:28:31 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that level. *spocks an eyebrow* Oh? Subject to Society laws (e.g., Corpora, Board rulings, et cetera) and kingdom law (e.g., law proper, officer handbooks), a kingdom principal herald can structure the kingdom College of Heralds as he liseth and give people such offices, titles, and ranks as he will. The only things that really can't be nuked at will are SCA awards; those require heroic measures. P-a-L can't be viewed as an SCA award, because - - it wasn't called an award or order - - it wasn't given in court at a newsletter event (Corpora) - - only a landed type can give awards (Corpora) Since Star didn't have the power to give awards, it can't be an award. It has to be an honorific, an office, a rank, et cetera. If he says "*poof* you're not a Pursuivant-At-Large in the Ansteorran College of Heralds any more", then *poof*. > > Hey, I *said* it was a nit! > I know, I know, but now it's crawling on me! The *egg* of a louse is crawling on you? Oh, buggerit. I just remembered the Corpora provision that ossifers have to be paid members of SCA Inc. A California 501(c)3 Not-For- Profit Corporation Accept No Substitutes. That means authorizers have to bother to check membership cards and membership expiration dates. May I suggest that the rank of PaL / PE / Attack Pursuivants be decoupled from that, but if you're not a Paid Member Of SCA Inc. you just can't do anything officer-like? That is, you're as free as anyone else in the kingdom to spout off on what you think heraldry is, suggest to people who they should consult for more info, advise them on how to fill out forms -- but not accept forms, money, or otherwise act on behalf of the Ansteorran College of Heralds, until you get your new Paid Member Card (TM)? And have that activity count towards renewal? Daniel "moderately pro-Society but moderately rabid anti-SCA Inc." de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 05:46:22 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Darius and Monica wrote: > As we begin to rewrite the branch warenting class, I would pose a > question to this forum: > > "What does a branch herald _need_ to know?" 1. How to spell "warrant". Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 05:57:53 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > "Pursuivants at Large" ... "Pusuivant Extrodinary" > > Since "extraordinary" in this sense is "Employed or sent upon an > unusual or special service; as, an ambassador extraordinary.", and > Da'ud or Tadhg informed me once that that he considered it an antonym > to "officer in ordinary", "a prelate [or other officer?] exercising > original jurisdiction over a specified territory or group", I don't > think the semantic difference between the two terms is large. > > Daniel "here, have a nit" de Lincolia I'll see your nit, and raise you one. "Extraordinary" means an officer outside of the regular establishment for such officers. The use in "Ambassador Extraordinary" is an historic relic of a time when it wasn't normal to keep embassies in other folk's territories; each embassy was sent for a special purpose. In modern Britain, "[Officer] Extraordinary" is usually somebody given a title because of some special expertise or sometimes merely because they need extra help; that's the major rationale behind our use of "Herald Extraordinary" titles for people who have been Star. In this case, since (if I understand it correctly) "Pursuivants at Large" won't have any title other than that, they are functionally Pursuivants Extraordinary, and I see no obvious reason not to call them that. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 06:03:26 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim > this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at > large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that > level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; > it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. That's a very good point, which I don't recall ever having been made explicit before. Is "Pursuivant" an office? Or is it a certification of a level of expertise? I'd be prepared to argue that in Period "Herald" was invariably an office, while "Pursuivant" was like "Apprentice", something that could indicate a formal position but that could also indicate merely pursuit of knowledge in a certain field. I suggest that it would be of significant value to settle this point prior to doing anything else. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 06:10:07 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:10:07 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: OK I believe both Daniel and Alessander bring up good points, First there is not a lot of semantic difference between the two titles. Two those who were given the rank of Pursuivant at large befor the last test came out should keep their privlege. as much for their knowlege as thier service to the college. this is one of the reasons to change the term we are actively using. Now, "What does a branch officer _need_ to know?" In service Darius, Ld Tressure _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 06:14:24 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Now, "What does a branch officer _need_ to know?" Let's work backward from requirements to specifications, says the software engineer. (1) What does a branch officer *need* to *do*? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer *needs* to know. (2) What is a branch officer expected to do *beyond* the bare minimum required to hold the office? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer *ought* to know above what he *needs* to know. (3) What would we like to see a branch officer be able to do? Delineating that will tell us what a branch officer ought to be aiming for. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Thu Aug 19 07:04:14 1999 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:04:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: I seemed to have caused a bit of a stir. Attempting to use "Pursuiviant At Large" as the label for those who are "certified", "identified" and any other "-ied" indicating a more than basic knowledge of heraldry and that are willing and are able to support heraldic activities in the Kingdom does not appear to have avoided the problem. My original reason for not using PE was that it has been given as a rank in the college over the years and does not expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I am not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there a better designator? - --Francois, Star - -----Original Message----- From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [mailto:tiomoid at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:03 AM To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? - --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > So my question is, would I have to recertify, as it were, to claim > this rank? I believe that even inactive, I'm still a pursuivant at > large. I'm not sure you can unmake someone once they win to that > level. The rank is not a license to practice which can be revoked; > it's a level of knowledge which cannot be unachieved. That's a very good point, which I don't recall ever having been made explicit before. Is "Pursuivant" an office? Or is it a certification of a level of expertise? I'd be prepared to argue that in Period "Herald" was invariably an office, while "Pursuivant" was like "Apprentice", something that could indicate a formal position but that could also indicate merely pursuit of knowledge in a certain field. I suggest that it would be of significant value to settle this point prior to doing anything else. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Thu Aug 19 11:11:06 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:11:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I > wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I am > not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there a > better designator? > > --Francois, Star How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate region). Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 11:40:48 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Eirik wrote: > > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to > > expire I wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be > > a good choice. I am not so sure that it is a great choice. What > > do people think? Is there a better designator? > > > > --Francois, Star > > How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert > appropriate region). How about "Assistant Regional Herald"? Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 13:34:42 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:34:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E Content-Type: text/plain How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse Pursuivant (Central Regional Herald). This both distinguishes them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and does not SCA-ize them into 'At-Large's. Further it has the added bonus of making it clear whenever the title is used which area, roughly, they are from. I like this idea, Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Eirik [SMTP:eirik at n-link.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > expire. Since I wanted a certification that has the potential to expire > I > > wanted to use something else. P at large seemed to be a good choice. I > am > > not so sure that it is a great choice. What do people think? Is there > a > > better designator? > > > > --Francois, Star > > How about deputy herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate > region). > > Eirik > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

How about they are = titled, by region, as Extrodinary.

For example, a = non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central region would be = Eclipse Extraordinary.  His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse = Pursuivant (Central Regional Herald).  This both distinguishes = them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and does not SCA-ize them into = 'At-Large's.  Further it has the added bonus of making it clear = whenever the title is used which area, roughly, they are = from.

I like this = idea,

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant
-----Original Message-----

    From:   Eirik [SMTP:eirik at n-link.com]
    Sent:   Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    > expire. Since I = wanted a certification that has the potential to expire I
    > wanted to use = something else.  P at large seemed to be a good choice.  = I
    am
    > not so sure = that it is a great choice.  What do people think?  Is there = a
    > better = designator?
    >
    > --Francois, = Star

    How about deputy = herald at large or deputy herald for (insert appropriate
    region).

    Eirik

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA81.FD71AC9E-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 14:08:20 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an office title. There is only one Eclipse. > His higher up would be, logically, Eclipse Pursuivant (Central > Regional Herald). Um? I thought Eclipse was Eclipse Herald? Or have we reverted to the Silly Old Practice of varying the rank to suit the officeholder rather than pegging it to the office? > This both distinguishes them from Pursuivant Extraordinaries, and > does not SCA-ize them into 'At-Large's. Further it has the added > bonus of making it clear whenever the title is used which area, > roughly, they are from. > > I like this idea, I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Thu Aug 19 14:29:10 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 16:29:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: Greetings, We are working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who has help us so far) and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me if the current favorite has conflicts. The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. It seems in my faded heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of required charges. Is this true or did I dream it. Thanks for the help. (P.S. The talk is now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever get off the ground. Somebody shoot me now!!! :) ) Thanks, Mere Shirden ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 14:39:53 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at their event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Thu Aug 19 14:45:36 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:45:36 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E Content-Type: text/plain Quoth the RfS: 3. Required Charges Transparent - Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory. As such, given the last sentence, if you are comparing official Society Armory (your groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the laurel wreath DOES COUNT. Timothy of Glastonbury > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:29 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's > > Greetings, > We are working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who > has help us so far) and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me > if > the current favorite has conflicts. The preposed blazon is: Or in pale > three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I > checked the on line ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two > registered devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. It seems > in my faded heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of > required charges. Is this true or did I dream it. Thanks for the help. > (P.S. The talk is now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever > get off the ground. Somebody shoot me now!!! :) ) > > Thanks, > Mere > Shirden > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's

Quoth the = RfS:
3. Required Charges Transparent - = Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may = consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges = were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in = complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like = the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a = laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not = conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or = three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for = difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add = to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official = Society armory with any other armory.
<end = Quote>

As such, given the = last sentence, if you are comparing official Society Armory (your = groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the laurel = wreath DOES COUNT.

Timothy of = Glastonbury


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Debra Poole [SMTP:dpoole1 at airmail.net]
    Sent:   Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:29 PM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's

    Greetings,
            We are = working on our device for our group (thanks to everyone who
    has help us so = far)  and I have a question on cd's that will help tell me = if
    the current = favorite has conflicts.  The preposed blazon is: Or in pale
    three escallops = inverted and on a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or.  I
    checked the on line = ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two
    registered devices = unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath.  It seems
    in my faded = heraldric memory that cd's are NOT granted for the addition of
    required = charges.  Is this true or did I dream it.  Thanks for the = help.
    (P.S. The talk is = now of making me acting herald of this group if we ever
    get off the = ground.  Somebody shoot me now!!! :) )

    Thanks,
    Mere
    Shirden    

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEA8B.E4A7318E-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dpoole1 at airmail.net Thu Aug 19 14:49:18 1999 From: dpoole1 at airmail.net (Debra Poole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 16:49:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: Yeah!!! Maybe were on to something now. Thanks! Mere [Snip] >As such, given the last sentence, if you are comparing official Society >Armory (your groups arms) and someones registered arms (other armory) the >laurel wreath DOES COUNT. > >Timothy of Glastonbury ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 16:34:35 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:34:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Tadhg won at "Spot the Hidden Assumption". Mine, in this case, where I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of being. On the other hand, can it be said that the modified titles "Pursuivant Extraordinary" and "Pursuivant-at-Large" are job titles? This is clearer in the PE case, as "Extraordinary" implies a job specifically, one outside the line structure. As for the suggestions relating to "deputy regional herald" et al ... Personally, I'd prefer to use a period title in a way close to the period meaning, than a modern-looking descriptive title that I find boring. Further, a PE/PaL would not be a deputy of any particular regional, right? We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius is available; any others? We also have some kingdom order names we can use. Garter King of Arms is associated with the Order of the Garter; ditto Toisson D'Or (I'm pretty sure I misspled that: "Golden Fleece") doubtless did in Burgundy. (Ideally, such a named herald would have any special duties for that order, like calling up candidates for receiving those awards, but that could become a zoo at Steppes Twelfth Night. "Is Star of Merit Pursuivant here? Here's your two, and get the insignia from Anna. HEY, WHITE SCARF! OVER HERE! We've been looking for you!") For that matter, it's even possible loot the baronies. Maybe *unwise*, but I'm brainstorming now. Tell them that their baronial service order is now their branch herald's title, on the Garter model, and pounce on their old baronial title. The Steppes herald would be Oak Pursuivant, and Oakenwald might be offered to any PE/PaL that has a connection to Steppes. All in all, I think plain PE/PaL is the best. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 19 18:13:04 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a > laurel wreath or. What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? I was going to second-guess your conflict check (nothing personal, I'm like that, it's an obsession) but can't parse the blazon. The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. X.3. says that if you're counting two devices, each with the _same_ restricted charge (laurel wreath, crown, etc.) as primary charge, you can get X.1. or X.2. difference for secondary charges and pretend the laurel wreath or crown or whatever isn't there. That's it. And it should only be invoked if the armory cannot be cleared using any other rules. If you can get the CDs from X.4. or clear it by X.1. or X.2., pretend X.3. never existed - you don't need it. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 18:36:47 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Teceangl wrote: > The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. That's the easy way to go -- it hardly ever matters. > X.3. says that if you're counting two devices, each with the _same_ > restricted charge (laurel wreath, crown, etc.) as primary charge, > you can get X.1. or X.2. difference for secondary charges and > pretend the laurel wreath or crown or whatever isn't there. Um, no. To quote again: 3. Required Charges Transparent - Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, "Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules" would not conflict with "Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules". Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory. It does not say that the required charge is the primary, much less the same charge on each. The example given doesn't have any required charges as primary. It does not say you can get X.1. It says Difference of Primary Charges only, which is X.2. Basically, X.3 ought to be a subclause of X.2's infro paragraph. Well, actually, the whole Napoleonic notion of "required charges" should be tossed into the trash. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 18:50:44 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:50:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Debra Poole wrote: > The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on a > bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line > ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered > devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. I agree with Alanna: the proposed blazon is indecipherable. Also, please tell us who owns the two items you suspect of conflict, and what their blazons are. They may be clear by some other rule, or we may be able to apply X.3, or ... Basically, the mor information, the better. I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a little too generic. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:18:01 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - -- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador > Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This > fictional > person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not > have a > standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE > currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who > does > not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry > at their > event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald > couldn't make > the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title > Ambassador/Eclipse. No, we have an rank Ambassador/Herald. You mistake the correspondence. In the phrase "Duke of Norfolk", "Duke" is the rank and "Norfolk" the title. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:59:53 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > Tadhg won at "Spot the Hidden Assumption". Mine, in this case, where > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of > being. Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were both. > On the other hand, can it be said that the modified titles > "Pursuivant Extraordinary" and "Pursuivant-at-Large" are job titles? Say rather "functional positions". "Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job type, "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. > This is clearer in the PE case, as "Extraordinary" implies a job > specifically, one outside the line structure. Which can have a title or not, depending on how it is handled. > As for the suggestions relating to "deputy regional herald" et al > ... Personally, I'd prefer to use a period title in a way close to > the period meaning, than a modern-looking descriptive title that I > find boring. (Me, too, but you see how far that gets.) I wasn't aware that "Pursuivant at Large" is a period title; on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby be tainted for our purposes. (Once we figure out what those purposes are....) > Further, a PE/PaL would not be a deputy of any particular > regional, right? Dunno. (Who does?) Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more > heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius > is available; any others? That's what I would do, but it depends on how Lord Star wants to handle it. I registered a lot of titles when I was Star for *precisely* that purpose (among others). Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Aug 19 21:37:04 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:37:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Hanaper ("Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle" ) wrote: > > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state of > > being. > > Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were both. Since I got active here late in Dathi's tenure, I only recall seeing it as a job title. > "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. Ah. A name has to go with it, then; nobody in period would have written "Know ye that I John Blow Pursuivant Extraordinary", but rather "John Blow Windsor PE", "Thistle Herald", whatever. > on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant > Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the > SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby be > tainted for our purposes. I say hand the baggage over to the bomb squad -- let them take it to a deserted field and blow it up harmlessly. "We are not bound by our past mistakes" and "We can do better" [I presume]. We're winning against "-ocrat" and even against "autocrat"; "charter" (versus "scroll") isn't entirely hopeless; et cetera. "Pursuivant Extraordinary", to my relatively-new eyes, is rare enough in Ansteorra that we can do "the right thing" ... when we discover what it is ... or at least a righter thing. (By the way: the SCA College of Arms no longer does "Lord / Lady ". Unlike Lord Lyon, none of our heralds get to try miscreants, or get people charged with treason if they diss us while we're wearing a tabard, or anything cool like that. Since that change, territorial names are now registerable as titles.) > Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, > righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? That's what I was figuring. That's what I'd like to do. (I suppose if we followed the medieval pattern of friars, we'd need the approval of the local bishop^Wregional herald to preach in their territory. Let's not.) > Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? Well, if they had a fixed jurisdiction, wouldn't they be in ordinary? Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 05:56:25 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 05:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I assumed that "pursuivant" was a job title rather than a state > > > of being. > > > > Well, it's not your fault -- we've been using it as if it were > > both. > > Since I got active here late in Dathi's tenure, I only recall seeing > it as a job title. (Oh, I'm sorry -- am I showing my age again?) > > "Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary" is a job title. > > Ah. A name has to go with it, then; nobody in period would have > written "Know ye that I John Blow Pursuivant Extraordinary", but > rather "John Blow Windsor PE", "Thistle Herald", whatever. Precisely. > > on the other hand, Lord Star has a good point that "Pursuivant > > Extraordinary" has a lot of connotative historical baggage in the > > SCA in general and in Ansteorra in particular, and it may thereby > > be tainted for our purposes. > > I say hand the baggage over to the bomb squad -- let them take it to > a deserted field and blow it up harmlessly. "We are not bound by our > past mistakes" and "We can do better" [I presume]. Well, *I* feel that way, and apparently *you* feel that way, but a lot of people (a lot of *very significant people*) don't feel that way. (Can we take them out into the same field and blow them up too? Please?) > We're winning > against "-ocrat" and even against "autocrat"; "charter" (versus > "scroll") isn't entirely hopeless; et cetera. "Pursuivant > Extraordinary", to my relatively-new eyes, is rare enough in > Ansteorra that we can do "the right thing" ... when we discover > what it is ... or at least a righter thing. Ah'm fur it.... > (By the way: the SCA College of Arms no longer does "Lord / Lady > ". Unlike Lord Lyon, none of our heralds get to try > miscreants, or get people charged with treason if they diss us while > we're wearing a tabard, or anything cool like that. Since that > change, territorial names are now registerable as titles.) *sigh* I rather liked that usage. Oh, well. I hope nobody is too terribly offended if I still use it...? > > Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", doing good, > > righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? > > That's what I was figuring. That's what I'd like to do. Oh, well, if we're doing what we'd LIKE to do -- I have a little list.... > > Or do they cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > > Well, if they had a fixed jurisdiction, wouldn't they be in ordinary? And I see nothing wrong with that. Where the need arises, let's establish a deputy regional herald (or two, or three), and check some of the unused titles out of the arsenal for that purpose. Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:12:05 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:12:05 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a group could just be a pursuivant. >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at >their >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dariusobells at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:12:20 1999 From: dariusobells at hotmail.com (Donald Riney) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:12:20 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a group could just be a pursuivant. Darius >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This fictional >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at >their >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think. > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Fri Aug 20 07:29:46 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:29:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834 Content-Type: text/plain Ok... how about this one : For those who have been granted their title for life by the College let us check them out, or register for them, a permanant name from the Heraldic Job Title List. This would then notablly distinguish Gladesong Pursuivant Extraordinary, for instance, from Timothy of Glastonbury PE. It brings enough of a distinction from warrant expiring PEs, I would think, that there wouldn't be a problem. Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald Riney [SMTP:dariusobells at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:12 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers > will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to > a > group could just be a pursuivant. > > Darius > > >From: "Rayburn, Timothy" > >Reply-To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > >To: "'Heralds Mailing List'" > >Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:08 PM > > > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > > > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? > > > > > > --- "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > > > > > > > How about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary. > > > > > > "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary. > > > > > > > For example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central > > > > region would be Eclipse Extraordinary. > > > > > > No, because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and "Eclipse" is an > > > office title. There is only one Eclipse. > > > > > [Tim Rayburn] But let us take the example of Ambassador > >Extraordinary you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier. This > fictional > >person would be sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have > a > >standing Ambassador. How is this different from a trained herald (PE > >currently) being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does > >not have a Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at > >their > >event, or to run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't > make > >the event? We have a specific event, and we have an office title > >Ambassador/Eclipse. While I realize that to this point Eclipse has been > >just one person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds > >have been mostly paper-pushers. What is wrong with having Eclipse Herald > >being able to assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your > >argument Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical > >Canton. I am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I > think. > > > > > > > > > I dislike it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy Eclipse > > > Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the disadvantages. > > > > > > > > > Tadhg, Hanaper > > > > >========================================================================= > === > >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?

Ok... how about this = one :

For those who have = been granted their title for life by the College let us check them out, = or register for them, a permanant name from the Heraldic Job Title = List.  This would then notablly distinguish Gladesong Pursuivant = Extraordinary, for instance, from Timothy of Glastonbury PE.  It = brings enough of a distinction from warrant expiring PEs, I would = think, that there wouldn't be a problem.

Timothy of = Glastonbury
Deputy to Nautilus = Pursuivant


    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Donald Riney = [SMTP:dariusobells at hotmail.com]
    Sent:   Friday, August 20, 1999 8:12 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?

    Would there be any = problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping =
    the = "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all = branch officers will
    be identified by = their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example
    Lindenwood = Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a =
    group could just be = a pursuivant.

    Darius

    >From: = "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com>
    >Reply-To: = heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    >To: = "'Heralds Mailing List'" <heralds at Ansteorra.ORG>
    >Subject: RE: = ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know?
    >Date: Thu, 19 = Aug 1999 16:39:53 -0500
    >
    > > = - -----Original Message-----
    > > = From:       Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle = [SMTP:tiomoid at yahoo.com]
    > > = Sent:       Thursday, August 19, 1999 = 4:08 PM
    > > = To:heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    > > = Subject:    RE: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to = know?
    > >
    > > --- = "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com> = wrote:
    > >
    > > > How = about they are titled, by region, as Extrodinary.
    > >
    > > = "Extrodinary"? Oh, Extraordinary.
    > >
    > > > For = example, a non-Branch herald who has shown skill in the central
    > > > = region would be Eclipse Extraordinary.
    > >
    > > No, = because "extraordinary" applies to a rank, and = "Eclipse" is an
    > > office = title. There is only one Eclipse.
    > >
    >       [Tim = Rayburn]  But let us take the example of Ambassador
    >Extraordinary = you gave in support of Extraordinary earlier.  This = fictional
    >person would be = sent on a specific mission to a place that does not have a
    >standing = Ambassador.  How is this different from a trained herald = (PE
    >currently) = being sent, or requested by, a group such as a Canton who does
    >not have a = Herald to assist with Submissions, or the Field Heraldry at
    >their
    >event, or to = run a Baronial Court because the Baronial Herald couldn't make
    >the = event?  We have a specific event, and we have an office = title
    >Ambassador/Eclipse.  While I realize that to = this point Eclipse has been
    >just one = person, that is because in no small part, that Regional Heralds
    >have been = mostly paper-pushers.  What is wrong with having Eclipse = Herald
    >being able to = assign an Eclipse Extraordinary, or perhaps better by your
    >argument = Eclipse Pursuivant Extraordinary, to assist our hypothetical
    >Canton.  I = am not saying this is perfect, but it has real promise I think.
    >
    >
    >
    > > I dislike = it intensely. "Assistant Eclipse Herald" or "Deputy = Eclipse
    > > = Herald" would have the same benefits and none of the = disadvantages.
    > >
    > >
    > > Tadhg, = Hanaper
    > >
    >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.


    _________________________________________________________= ______
    Get Free Email and = Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEB18.2C713834-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Fri Aug 20 08:25:02 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: >> Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a >> laurel wreath or. >What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops >both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember >to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie >along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). Caelin >- Teceangl ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Fri Aug 20 08:38:32 1999 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:38:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: >What's a "bend rising"? >Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, > "bend rising". It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). IIRC, there is no difference given between a "bend rising" and a bend because the bend rising was just a depiction of a bend on a curved shield. Keep it in mind when doing conflict checking. Modar ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 09:04:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:04:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". No. "Bend enarched". It's an artistic detail not worth a CD. "Rising" means that it has wings, always elevated and addorsed I think, and its body is angled so it looks like it's taking off. You can't have a winged ordinary -- sorry! Daniel "Foster's: Australian for 'beer', British for 'heraldry'" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From werisman at mail.utexas.edu Fri Aug 20 10:34:56 1999 From: werisman at mail.utexas.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:34:56 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: At 11:37 PM 8/19/99 -0500, Daniel wrote: >We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more >heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius >is available; any others? Actually, there aren't that many available. I went through all the titles at the Westgate symposium (with help from Tadhg and Da'ud) and discovered that, after you eliminate branch titles, current office titles, and personal titles of former Stars, there are only a handful left. We've used Armillary and Arbalest and several others (including Actuarius and Orle) are associated with offices that are currently vacant but may well be used again in the not too distant future. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 12:10:54 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: - --- tmcd at jump.net wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Debra Poole wrote: > > The preposed blazon is: Or in pale three escallops inverted and on > > a bend rising sable a laurel wreath or. I checked the on line > > ordaniary and found that it will conflict with two registered > > devices unless we receive a cd for the laurel wreath. > > I agree with Alanna: the proposed blazon is indecipherable. I've seen the design in question, and I think it certifiably NPS. The "bend rising" is what I would call a bend enhanced to sinister; it looks very unbalanced with the three escallops in pale. I don't know where the term "bend rising" came from, but I suspect it was some place dark and dim that we don't want to go.... > I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a > little too generic. Pedant. Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 13:38:07 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:38:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Laurel wreath rules (was Question on CD's) Message-ID: >> I am taking the liberty of changing the Subject line. It was a >> little too generic. > Pedant. True, but not in this case. There have been recent complains about subject lines saying just "Name help" or "Device help". DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 13:39:42 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: Gwenllian wrote: > several others (including Actuarius and Orle) > are associated with offices that are currently vacant but may well be used > again in the not too distant future. I got the impression somewhere that period heraldic titles were not associated with any particular job, and neither are they in modern times. This is just a dim impression; does anyone have data? DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Aug 20 14:53:27 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: DdL wrote: > that period heraldic titles were not associated with any > particular job I should clarify that as "unless it was as a king of arms of a college of heralds, or if the title went with that of an order name". DdL (suddenly thought of Garter) - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 17:19:57 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Donald Riney wrote: > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". > Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch > officers will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For > example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not > attached to a > group could just be a pursuivant. That certainly does no damage to the historical paradigm. "Pursuivant" implies that the person is not an heraldic expert, still learning, but has a minimal amount of knowledge -- and that about descibes the sort of people who would be put in that situation. Works for me.... Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Fri Aug 20 19:17:57 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:17:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > > Dunno. (Who does?) Do PE/PaLs wander the Earth like Kane in "Kung Fu", > doing good, righting wrongs, and expunging ugly armory? Or do they > cover a particular territory's groups-sans-pursuivants? > > > We could also revive named titles in abeyance. We've registered more > > heraldic titles than most kingdoms; we can recycle. I know Actuarius > > is available; any others? > > That's what I would do, but it depends on how Lord Star wants to handle > it. I registered a lot of titles when I was Star for *precisely* that > purpose (among others). >From what I've read in the Gazette it would be reasonable to conclude that the PE/PaLs would be available as a resource to the regional and baronial heralds where they live. I would also conclude that a PE that live in Middleford (for this assume we don't have a herald) would be available to assist the regional herald with heraldic business in Middleford and surrounding groups. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Fri Aug 20 19:19:08 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:19:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Would there be any problem with just calling them "Pursuivants". Skipping > the "extraordinary" or "at large" altogether? After all branch officers will > be identified by their branch name or branch heraldic title. For example > Lindenwood Pursuivant or Nautilus Pursuivant, where as one not attached to a > group could just be a pursuivant. > Sounds like a good idea. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Aug 21 10:48:34 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:48:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: branch qualifications, heralds errant Message-ID: Just got had a chance to catch back up on the list, and I have a few quick comments about this thread. The requirements for a branch herald should be those qualifications that make having a herald better than leaving the office empty. Otherwise we are hurting ourselves. Among nice to know is pronunciation. This can be as never-ending as names research, but making the effort before tourney or court is a huge boost to the tourney/court and to the respect of the CoH. Re: looting titles. they are registered to the branches. Knowingly using a title registered to someone else without their permission is on a level with using an emblazon registered to someone else. Some kingdoms use a Chirurgeons guild instead of an officer structure. Would this work here? at least for the roving heralds? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sat Aug 21 11:25:20 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:25:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: branch qualifications, heralds errant Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Amy & Bill Morris wrote: > Re: looting titles. they are registered to the branches. Well, here's a place where rules and perception conflict. The only beings that can register new heraldic titles are the Society itself (for Laurel and Laurel staff) and kingdoms (for everyone else). [1] For example, the e-Armorial has Callisto Pursuivant|8708L|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Candelaio Pursuivant|9510X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of| Oakenwald Pursuivant|8104L|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Nautilus Pursuivant|9009X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of|(re-registered 9211X) Nordsteorra Herald|9201X|t|Ansteorra, Kingdom of| et cetera. The fourth field holds the owner name. [2] I suspect that substituting baronial order titles for baronial heralds' titles would cause less fuss [3], heraldic title fu being of less general interest. I don't know, however, and I don't think we ought to try and find out. [1] I was careful to say "new heraldic titles". A recent change was to allow heraldic titles to be registered to people, formalizing the previous practice where titles were registered for the exclusive use of the person. The process is that either Laurel or a kingdom has to register the title, and then transfer it. As with any transfer, it has to go on an LoI, with letters from the donor giving the title and a letter from the donee accepting it, and if one requirement is missed the transfer fails. (E.g. 12/94 LoAR: East, Kingdom of the. Transfer of heraldic titles to the Kingdom of Drachenwald. Albion Herald Aurochs Pursuivant Broken Wain Herald Edelweiss Herald Post Horn Pursuivant Schwarzdrachen Herald As no letter accepting the transfer of these titles has been received from Drachenwald, we are unable to make such transfer. ) [2] In a similar disconnect between popular perception and rules, I think most people would be surprised to learn that SCA Inc. could by law suck dry their local branch treasury, and I hope they would be upset, viewing that as the local branch's money. It is not sufficiently appreciated that, because there is one corporation and all bank accounts are "SCA Inc.--", SCA Inc. actually owns all the money in branch bank accounts. (This becomes clearer with financial reports -- it's why local treasurers have to be prompt about their financial reports, because kingdoms have to add up all the figures for *their* reports, which the SCA Inc. Treasurer has to add up to do the corporate tax return!) [3] "We've replaced their baronial pursuivant's title with new Folger Pursuivant. Let's see if they notice!" Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work addresses are tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com. tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jmcmaste at accd.edu Sat Aug 21 12:16:16 1999 From: jmcmaste at accd.edu (Jodi McMaster) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of a submission Message-ID: The one I'm trying to track is ILoI 0399, Cathlin Sommerfield, resubmitted badge. Anyone know where it is in the pipeline? AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:31:03 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: heralds V1 #249 Message-ID: - --- "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > I got the impression somewhere that period heraldic titles were > not associated with any particular job, and neither are they in > modern times. This is just a dim impression; does anyone have data? Certainly they weren't as closely bound to specific functions as they are in the SCA, but they still had regular duties. There isn't a lot of data on the heraldic establishments of countries outside of the British Isles, that I've seen, but it seems plain that titled officers of arms served the nobles from whom they received their offices, and did the sort of things that officers of arms do. Bear in mind that we do orders of magnitude more registrations and tourneys than they did (which is why they had the time to do more in each case than we can do). Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:38:51 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: - --- Eirik wrote: > From what I've read in the Gazette it would be reasonable to conclude > that the PE/PaLs would be available as a resource to the regional and > baronial heralds where they live. "But that trick never works...." At least it hasn't in the past -- the only people who will draw on such a resource are people who really don't need it. I'd like to see them be fairly proactive; perhaps we could run our own version of Heraldic Visitations, desending upon some poor unsuspecting branch and heraldizing them out of a years growth. > I would also conclude that a PE that live in Middleford (for this > assume we don't have a herald) would be available to assist the > regional herald with heraldic business in Middleford and surrounding > groups. Uh, in that case, why isn't this person the group's officer of arms? If s/he has the time to help out the regional, s/he's got the time to do the local job. Heraldry begins at home. Tadhg, Hanaper === Tiomoid M. of Angle JD MBA No, I do not suffer fools gladly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Sun Aug 22 16:24:58 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:24:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - What do we need to know? Message-ID: > Uh, in that case, why isn't this person the group's officer of arms? If > s/he has the time to help out the regional, s/he's got the time to do > the local job. Heraldry begins at home. > Could be the same reason Chirurgeons at Large do not serve as a branch chirurgeons. This is hypothetical anyway. Also there may be several qualified PE/PaLs in a branch, one of which is the branch herald. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 00:38:52 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: I said: > > The laurel wreath always counts. Period. Always. Daniel said: > That's the easy way to go -- it hardly ever matters. Then I screwed up and misintrepreted X.3. by relating it to X.1 and X.2. Daniel fixed it: > It does not say you can get X.1. It says Difference of Primary > Charges only, which is X.2. He's right, of course. And remember, try everything else first unless you're completey certain you understand X.3. (Heck, do it anyway. It's good practice. :) - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 00:42:30 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Question on CD's Message-ID: > >> Or, in pale three escallops inverted and on a bend rising sable a > >> laurel wreath or. > > >What's a "bend rising"? And how are you handing the bend and escallops > >both in the middle of the shield? Is the bend overall? Did you remember > >to point the top of the laurel wreath at dexter chief as it should lie > >along the bend, not palewise unless blazoned so? > > Fosters shows many examples of something that is, I think, "bend rising". > It is a bend on a curve usually convex (rising). So we're to wondering about the rest of the blazon, then. Part is "Or" for the field, part is "three escallops inverted" and part is "on a bend enarched sable a laurel wreath Or". Clear enough, but since you put "in pale" so early in the blazon I'm not certain if you have three escallops inverted (*must* they be inverted? 80% of the registered escallops are upside-down and I'm personally tired of looking at so much gas-station-sign heraldry in the SCA) in pale down the field, or somehow arranged above the bend (which is weird, but possible). How, please, are the escallops arranged on the field? - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Mon Aug 23 07:29:58 1999 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:29:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Ok, we have discussed what branch officers need to know. We have discussed the name we will call our heralds that are not attached to the branches. I would now raise another question: As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? Darius, Ld Tressure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 07:51:49 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:51:49 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610 Content-Type: text/plain There are several areas that can be used for teaching : * Classes are very important. Classes on all sorts of subjects, including but not in any way limited to, conflict-checking, basic name research, field heraldry, basic OP understanding, Precedence Awareness, Court Heraldry traditions, etc. * Community. This has worked very well in Elfsea which has developed quite a thriving Heraldic Community under Darius as Nautilus. The feeling of community amoung heralds, having commentary meetings open and inviting and welcome to simple conversation and humerous comments. * Student/Teacher relationships. Some people just work well together. Encouraging these people to teach each other their expertise in a less than formal classroom area works very well. * Critique. Teaching and encouraging people to be open to critiquing (in a good way) what each other are doing. This also gives the chance to deliver the greatest tool to get someone to Herald again : Encouragment and Thanks, privately one on one. > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 9:30 AM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... > > Ok, we have discussed what branch officers need to know. We have > discussed the name we will call our heralds that are not attached to the > branches. I would now raise another question: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will > soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to > participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready > and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we > will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a > hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? > > Darius, Ld Tressure > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - what about...

There are several = areas that can be used for teaching :

  • Classes are = very important.  Classes on all sorts of subjects, including but = not in any way limited to, conflict-checking, basic name research, = field heraldry, basic OP understanding, Precedence Awareness, Court = Heraldry traditions, etc.
  • Community.  = This has worked very well in Elfsea which has developed quite a = thriving Heraldic Community under Darius as Nautilus.  The feeling = of community amoung heralds, having commentary meetings open and = inviting and welcome to simple conversation and humerous = comments.
  • Student/Teacher = relationships.   Some people just work well together.  = Encouraging these people to teach each other their expertise in a less = than formal classroom area works very well.
  • Critique.  = Teaching and encouraging people to be open to critiquing (in a good = way) what each other are doing.  This also gives the chance to = deliver the greatest tool to get someone to Herald again : Encouragment = and Thanks, privately one on one.


    • -----Original Message-----
    From:   Darius and Monica = [SMTP:dmmerlick at earthlink.net]
    Sent:   Monday, August 23, 1999 9:30 AM
    To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
    Subject:       = ANSTHRLD - what about...

    Ok, we have = discussed what branch officers need to know. We have
    discussed the name = we will call our heralds that are not attached to the
    branches. I would = now raise another question:
    As we set into = place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will
    soon have fewer = branch officers, how should we encourage new people to
    participate in = heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready
    and armed to be a = pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we
    will need new blood = in the college. People who want to learn and lend a
    hand. How do we = teach them what they need to know?

    Darius, Ld = Tressure

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEED76.D4DED610-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tiomoid at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 09:04:05 1999 From: tiomoid at yahoo.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: - --- Darius and Monica wrote: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that > will soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new > people to participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who > appear ready and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have > many who are not. we will need new blood in the college. People who > want to learn and lend a hand. How do we teach them what they need > to know? Historically, we (and by this I mean the entire SCA) have depended on people picking stuff up on their own. Oh, we hold occasional classes and every now and then a symposium, but mostly we hand them a list of books and say, "Go to it." I have always disliked this method. Heraldry is like the scribal arts: It's not just a case of a period "interest" that people can follow as the spirit moves them -- we need trained people to function as officers in that field. So we need to be far more proactive than we've been in the past. We need to encourage people to use armory everywhere. This might include giving additional prizes in arts competitions/demonstrations for projects that use armory well. We need to hold demonstrations to show people how heraldry can enrich their lives. There are books out there with luscious illustrations of good armory; let's get these and show them around. We need to compile introductory materials designed to transmit elementary heraldic knowledge as painlessly as possible. We've been hammering these out on an ad-hoc basis over the last twenty years, but we need to (a) ask people what they find hard or confusing about armory, (b) find out what seems to be working and what doesn't, and (c) come up with a supply of materials that we can use to lead people from Know Nothing to Useful Commentor by comfortable stages. We need to promote films that do heraldry well, such as Branagh's "Henry V" and "A Man For All Seasons". We need to dump on movies that do heraldry badly, like "Ivanhoe". We need to encourage authenticity at every turn, because Authenticity Is Our Friend -- we want people to pick authentic names and good period-style armory. We need to set up systems so that forms and reports, while still doing everything they need to do, are as unburdensome as possible. We need to run training so that prospective officers of arms won't get stage fright when doing court and field heraldry. That includes devising formulae that all are happy with and them making everybody memorize and use them. Spontaneity is fine in its place, but people work better within a framework of well-known, comfortable ritual. (This also means stepping on people who want change just for the sake of change. If a change isn't NECESSARY, it's BAD.) Strong letter follows.... Tadhg, Hanaper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 15:40:14 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:40:14 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: Hello again, In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. The blazon is : Azure, a semy of mullets argent. This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) and is very visually distinctive. My search shows NO entries within the O&A that use a semy of mullets, of any color, as the Primary. Very popular seems to be a bordure semy of mullets, but not the field. The only entries in the O&A with SEMY and MULLET are as follows : Bruinnech Longstrider The following device associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via the East): Azure, a drop spindle argent and a bordure argent semy of mullets of six points azure. Denise MacMhathain The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1985 (via Atenveldt): Argent, semy of decrescents vert, a spider tergiant sable charged with a mullet argent. James FitzGarth The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1985 (via the Middle): Vert, semy of buttercups Or, a griffin segreant, and on a chief argent, three mullets azure. Joscelyn FitzHarry of Gillyflower The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of 1980 and converted to device and reblazoned in April of 1984 (via Caid): Per fess arched azure, mulletty argent, and gules, semy of apples, a sun in his splendour Or between the horns of an increscent moon argent. Kyneburh Boithuile The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1999 (via Atlantia): Per bend argent and azure, a mullet of eight points counterchanged, a bordure sable semy of quatrefoils argent. Marie du Puy The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1994 (via Calontir): Argent, a sea-horse azure within a bordure sable, semy of mullets of four points argent. Olwen ferch Rhys of Aberdovey The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1994 (via the East): Vert, semy of roses argent, a horse salient and on a chief Or three mullets of six points vert. Reya nam Beanntan The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1985 (via the East): Per pale argent and sable, semy of crescents, within a bordure charged with three mullets of eight points, all counterchanged. Robert Runewald The following device associated with this name was registered in February of 1998 (via Atlantia): Per pale azure and Or, semy of arrows inverted, a crab, on a bordure six mullets all counterchanged. Sternfeld, Barony of The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 1989 (via the Middle): Gules, a mullet within and conjoined to five mullets in annulo, the whole within and conjoined to a bordure Or, semy of mullets of four points azure. Talena of Western Seas The following device associated with this name was registered in December of 1989 (via Caid): Sable, a mullet within the horns of a decrescent argent, all within a bordure argent, semy of leaves vert. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Mon Aug 23 16:02:53 1999 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:02:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: At 05:40 PM 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hello again, > >In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again >with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if >you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. > >The blazon is : > >Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > >This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) >and is very visually distinctive. I found the devices listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Or". I'm wondering if Liriel's is a conflict since it is only the addition of the fox. And under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is: Seitse Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in November of 1973: Vert, mulletty pierced argent. Which would conflict with "Azure, mulletty argent", right? I really wish we could search on "mulletty". By the way, I like the device. Looks way cool. Hopefully someone with better armory skills than mine can offer suggestions on how to clear any conflicts. Maybe a simple field division with "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the other? Mari - ----------------------------------------------- Sternfeld, Barony of The following device associated with this name was registered in July of 1983 (via the Middle): Azure, mulletty of four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath vert. Liriel Correll of Tuatha Keep The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 1988 (via Calontir): Azure, mulletty, a fox salient Or. James Darkstar The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 1983 (via Atenveldt): Azure, mulletty, on a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base throughout sable. Madeleine la Reveuse Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in February of 1980: Azure, mullety Or, a tower argent within a bordure Or. Mariah Stern The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1988 (via the Middle): Azure, mullety Or, in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or. Ioannes Nikaias The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1981 (via Atlantia): Azure, mullety of eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book argent bound sable and in base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps respectant Or. Richard of Castle North The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1990 (via Caid): Azure, mullety of four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister argent. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From eirik at n-link.com Mon Aug 23 16:05:12 1999 From: eirik at n-link.com (Eirik) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:05:12 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: > As we set into place the systems to support heraldry in areas that will > soon have fewer branch officers, how should we encourage new people to > participate in heraldry? Certainly there will be some who appear ready > and armed to be a pursuivant, but we will also have many who are not. we > will need new blood in the college. People who want to learn and lend a > hand. How do we teach them what they need to know? > Okay, I agree with most of what's been said; however, I believe if you want to teach more people that a basic heraldry class should be taught in each region at least once a year. Almost every other office is requiring the regional officers to teach a class on the basics to run the office in their region. Some are requiring the classes to be taught at least once a quarter. I think that we should have a regional symposium in each region at least once a year. Also the Book of the Herald should be redone and made as simple as possible. I know the knowledge is out there, it just seems like no one has gotten the knowledge together and presented it as often as possible. I don't mean to say that anyone isn't doing the job or has done a bad job. Eirik ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Mon Aug 23 16:13:20 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:13:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2 Content-Type: text/plain *grumbles moving back to the O&A* I completely forgot about mullety as a descriptive word. Checking it again folks, sorry. Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen O'Brien [SMTP:kobrien at bmc.com] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 PM > To: heralds at Ansteorra.ORG > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets > > At 05:40 PM 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello again, > > > >In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance > again > >with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course > if > >you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as > well. > > > >The blazon is : > > > >Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > > >This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block > print) > >and is very visually distinctive. > > I found the devices listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under > "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Or". I'm wondering if Liriel's is a > conflict since it is only the addition of the fox. > > And under "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is: > Seitse > Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were > registered in November of 1973: > Vert, mulletty pierced argent. > > Which would conflict with "Azure, mulletty argent", right? > > I really wish we could search on "mulletty". By the way, I like the > device. Looks way cool. Hopefully someone with better armory skills than > mine can offer suggestions on how to clear any conflicts. Maybe a simple > field division with "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the > other? > > Mari > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Sternfeld, Barony of > The following device associated with this name was registered in July of > 1983 (via the Middle): > Azure, mulletty of four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath > vert. > > Liriel Correll of Tuatha Keep > The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of > 1988 (via Calontir): > Azure, mulletty, a fox salient Or. > > James Darkstar > The following device associated with this name was registered in March of > 1983 (via Atenveldt): > Azure, mulletty, on a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base > throughout sable. > > Madeleine la Reveuse > Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were > registered in February of 1980: > Azure, mullety Or, a tower argent within a bordure Or. > > Mariah Stern > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of > 1988 (via the Middle): > Azure, mullety Or, in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or. > > Ioannes Nikaias > The following device associated with this name was registered in January > of > 1981 (via Atlantia): > Azure, mullety of eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book > argent > bound sable and in base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps > respectant Or. > > Richard of Castle North > The following device associated with this name was registered in October > of > 1990 (via Caid): > Azure, mullety of four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister > argent. > > > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets

*grumbles moving = back to the O&A*

I completely forgot = about mullety as a descriptive word.

Checking it again = folks, sorry.

Timothy

-----Original Message-----
From:   Kathleen O'Brien [SMTP:kobrien at bmc.com]
Sent:   Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 PM
To:     heralds at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject:       = Re: ANSTHRLD - Semy of = Mullets

At 05:40 PM = 8/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello = again,
>
>In my eternal = search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again
>with conflict = checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if
>you see some = sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well.
>
>The blazon is = :
>
>Azure, a semy = of mullets argent.
>
>This device has = a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print)
>and is very = visually distinctive.

I found the devices = listed below my .sig in the online ordinary under
"Mullet - = Uncharged - 4 or more - Or".  I'm wondering if Liriel's is = a
conflict since it = is only the addition of the fox.

And under = "Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Argent", there is:
Seitse
Either the name or = the following device associated it (or both) were
registered in = November of 1973:
Vert, mulletty = pierced argent.

Which would conflict = with "Azure, mulletty argent", right?  

I really wish we = could search on "mulletty".  By the way, I like = the
device.  Looks = way cool.  Hopefully someone with better armory skills than
mine can offer = suggestions on how to clear any conflicts.  Maybe a simple
field division with = "azure mulletty Or" as one field and "Or" as the = other?

Mari

-----------------------------------------------

Sternfeld, Barony = of
The following = device associated with this name was registered in July of
1983 (via the = Middle):
Azure, mulletty of = four points, on a bend cotissed Or a laurel wreath vert.

Liriel Correll of = Tuatha Keep
The following badge = associated with this name was registered in August of
1988 (via = Calontir):
Azure, mulletty, a = fox salient Or.

James = Darkstar
The following = device associated with this name was registered in March of
1983 (via = Atenveldt):
Azure, mulletty, on = a pile throughout Or a compass star elongated to base
throughout = sable.

Madeleine la = Reveuse
Either the name or = the following device associated it (or both) were
registered in = February of 1980:
Azure, mullety Or, = a tower argent within a bordure Or.

Mariah Stern
The following = device associated with this name was registered in May of
1988 (via the = Middle):
Azure, mullety Or, = in pale a rainbow proper and a bath tub Or.

Ioannes = Nikaias
The following = device associated with this name was registered in January of
1981 (via = Atlantia):
Azure, mullety of = eight points Or, in chief on a bezant an open book argent
bound sable and in = base a flame proper between in fess two Greek oil lamps
respectant = Or.

Richard of Castle = North
The following = device associated with this name was registered in October of
1990 (via = Caid):
Azure, mullety of = four points Or, a pithon displayed, head to sinister argent.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform = mailing list tasks.

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEEDBC.E5258FD2-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:12:50 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. I'm a bit surprised nobody's noticed Somalia, "Azure, a mullet argent" (9/95). One CD for number. "Semy" is a group of charges, which means it gets all the CDs a charge group can get. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:15:03 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:15:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: By the way, there's a slight error in the proposed blazon > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. It should be Azure semy of mullets argent. (commas are almost always optional in blazons, but I don't recall seeing them after a tincture and before "semy"). Alternately, since mullets have their own special semy-word, you could do Azure mullety argent. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 23 16:16:11 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:16:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Eirik wrote: > Also the Book of the Herald should be redone Sorry. That's a retirement project for former Star Principal Heralds. Daniel "at which point they Pass Beyond The Rim" de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Aug 23 18:55:47 1999 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:55:47 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: Clarification of submissions in August Gazette Message-ID: - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have received extra information from the branch herald in Brad Leah about two submissions from that branch that are in ILoI0899. For the use of commenters I forward the following: > For Hans Faust, The culture and time is German in the early 1500s > For Monica de la Cueva, it is Spanish 1500s. I guess I should have > mentioned something about her having the name of a Saint stemming from the > custom of Catholics being named after Saints. Please pass this on to any commenters who are not on the list. With thanks for your help, Kathri Asterisk kathri at aol.com - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BSmif76308 at aol.com From: BSmif76308 at aol.com Full-name: BSmif76308 Message-ID: <34b0f06f.24f326ea at aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:36:26 EDT Subject: Clarification To: Kathri at aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Greetings from the humble shire of Brad Leah, I was looking at the August Gazette and I saw where I forget to specify Language/Culture on two entries. For Hans Faust, The culture and time is German in the early 1500s For Monica de la Cueva, it is Spanish 1500s. I guess I should have mentioned something about her having the name of a Saint stemming from the custom of Catholics being named a Saints. If you have any other questions please let me know. Hans Faunst Herald of Brad Leah mka Brent Smith - --part1_bfa56c93.24f355a3_boundary-- ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Mon Aug 23 15:20:09 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:20:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Status of a submission Message-ID: Jodi McMaster wrote: > The one I'm trying to track is ILoI 0399, Cathlin Sommerfield, > resubmitted badge. Anyone know where it is in the pipeline? As per the June 1999 AG, it passed kingdom and is on its way to Laurel. - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 23 19:52:24 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > I'm a bit surprised nobody's noticed Somalia, "Azure, a mullet argent" > (9/95). One CD for number. > > "Semy" is a group of charges, which means it gets all the CDs a charge > group can get. What I'm surprised is that no one has mentioned X.2. Most of the examples of mullety armory have had a completely different primary charge. I reiterate: X.1. Addition of Primary Charges - Armory does not conflict with any protected armory that adds or removes the primary charge group. Most cadency systems did not involve addition or deletion of the primary charge group, so this automatically creates an independent design. For example, Argent, two mullets gules does not conflict with Argent, a pale between two mullets gules, and Vert, a lion rampant Or and a chief indented argent does not conflict with Vert, a chief indented argent. So what you need to check for is *any* number of mullets as the primary charge. As Daniel noted above, Somalia is only one CD from the proposal. And yes, you betcha semy is a primary charge group when it's the only charges on the field. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Steafanmac at aol.com Mon Aug 23 21:47:54 1999 From: Steafanmac at aol.com (Steafanmac at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:47:54 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check? Message-ID: Greetings all! Could I bother the College for a conflict check on the following blazons, please? 1) Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated argent between three towers argent masoned sable. 2) Azure platy. (With sincere apologies to Timothy of Glastonbury for the similarity.) 3) Quarterly sable and gules, a sea-horse argent. 4) Per fess argent and sable, a demi-horse issuant from the line of division sable. 5) (Fieldless) A griffin segreant azure. Best I can tell, all five are clear, but I'm still new at conflict checking with any accuracy. Any comment is appreciated. Thanks in advance for the help! In your service, Lord Stephen Macthomas Gate's Edge ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 00:07:44 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check? Message-ID: > 1) Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated argent between three towers > argent masoned sable. Against Grigorii Elisseyevich - December of 1995 (via Meridies): Azure, a pall inverted sable fimbriated between three mascles, a bordure argent. I see one CD for type change to secondaries, one CD for removal of the bordure. Possible CD for addition of field treatment to the towers but I cannot remember if rowers count like walls and therefore don't get difference for stonework representations (masoning). Clear either way. Nothing else comes even close. > 2) Azure platy. (With sincere apologies to Timothy of Glastonbury for the > similarity.) Clear. Cool. > 3) Quarterly sable and gules, a sea-horse argent. Against Eilonwy Andereth - August of 1979: Azure, a sea unicorn rampant reguardant argent. I think only one CD for the field tincture. I know regardant isn't worth any difference, and would very much hesitate to give difference between a sea-unicorn and a sea-horse. Conflict. > 4) Per fess argent and sable, a demi-horse issuant from the line of division > sable. Against No Mountain, Shire of - May of 1988 (via Calontir): Per fess embattled argent and vert, in chief a demi-horse rampant sable. One CD only for change to field. Conflict. > 5) (Fieldless) A griffin segreant azure. Against Brendan McEwen - December of 1996 (via Ansteorra): Per fess argent and gules, a griffin segreant azure. Only one CD for removal of field. Conflict. Sorry about all the bad news. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Tue Aug 24 10:41:31 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:41:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College Message-ID: Greetings! As most of you know, I am Timothy of Glastonbury, a deputy herald in the Barony of Elfsea. Elfsea will be holding it's Baronial College on January 22, 2000. I would like to use this College as an opportunity to hold a variety of classes on Heraldry within the Society. I was hoping that some of you fine folks on this list might wish to come and hold classes, especially with KWHS just a few short months later (you can dry run your classes :). I would be particularly interested in some basic classes in Conflict Checking, Period Arms, Ansteorran Awards 101, etc. I would also like to give the opportunity to run more 'advanced' classes. I have almost unlimited class space (I've prepared the Steward for up to 14 classes already), and have space for two hour classes etc. If you've never been to one of Elfsea's Baronial Colleges, they are usually held at the University of Texas at Arlington, in classrooms with power, tables, seating, and white/blackboards. If you would be interested, please reply to me. Ld. Timothy of Glastonbury Deputy to Nautilus Pursuivant ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Tue Aug 24 11:03:45 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:03:45 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College Message-ID: Not really about the subject, but I would like to mention two things. (1) I met your brother at American Eurocopter Sunday night. I was just back from the Hawkwood Faire in tights and all. He recognized the garb and mentioned your name! Talk about coincidences. (2) The talk about not using HTML is primarily to you. In fact, yours is the only email I have seen on the lists that is in HTML. Unfortunately, a fair number of our people do not have email systems which will handle HTML properly. Oh, well. And thanks for doing the good work on the Baronial College! Caelin ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at insurdata.com Tue Aug 24 11:16:30 1999 From: TRayburn at insurdata.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:16:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Inspired? Cartouche... Message-ID: Alright, I was inspired by Azure plattey, and since someone else has 'dibs' on it, I went looking for something other than mullets (insanely popular) that would look good to me. I found cartouches, which have all of 27 registered items that even include them. So ... How about the following badge and device combination? Device : Azure semy of cartouche argent. Badge : Azure a cartouche argent. The badge would conflict with the device, but otherwise appears clear (I've said that before though). The device is, again, clear as far as I can tell. Now, the only question I have outstanding is ... doesn't a cartouche look a lot like a bar? (just rounded ends). Is there a precedent out there about these conflicting or such? Timothy "I really think my brains engaged today" of Glastonbury ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Tue Aug 24 11:19:31 1999 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:19:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Elfsea Baronial College - oops Message-ID: Sorry, that was meant to be private. > Not really about the subject, but I would like to mention two things. Caelin ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 15:26:19 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Inspired? Cartouche... Message-ID: > Device : Azure semy of cartouche argent. > Badge : Azure a cartouche argent. > > The badge would conflict with the device, but otherwise appears clear (I've > said that before though). The device is, again, clear as far as I can tell. > > Now, the only question I have outstanding is ... doesn't a cartouche look a > lot like a bar? (just rounded ends). Is there a precedent out there about > these conflicting or such? Bars are fesswise, cartouches are palewise. I think billets are what you need to consider. And eggs. And taking into consideration all the above, both of these suggestions are clear. Azure semy of cartouches argent. Azure, a cartouche argent. Very nice. Oh, and a person always has implied permission to conflict with himself/herself, so that's fine, too. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Tue Aug 24 19:58:13 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:58:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: I've seen this before... Since the semy is a field treatment and not a true charge, this is period but rather rare (France ancient, Brittany, de Ferrers, Albret, etc.) Most, but not all, examples are territorial arms, not personal. Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for "not compatible with period practice." In the past most of the plain arms submissions were simply bounced for conflict with mundane heraldry. this avoided long involved technical discussions about how to conflict chargless devices. The other option was to ask for two differences. The most straight-forward interpretation of the rules would be to consider the mullety as the primary charge. Actually I like this. If you want help with period examples, see me. (Mableth). Rayburn, Timothy wrote: > > Hello again, > > In my eternal search to find arms that I like I'd ask your assistance again > with conflict checking (I've done as best as I can on it.) and of course if > you see some sort of insta-boing situation, let me know about that as well. > > The blazon is : > > Azure, a semy of mullets argent. > > This device has a really high garbability ratio (can anyone say block print) > and is very visually distinctive. > > My search shows NO entries within the O&A that use a semy of mullets, of any > color, as the Primary. Very popular seems to be a bordure semy of mullets, > but not the field. The only entries in the O&A with SEMY and MULLET are as > follows : > > Bruinnech Longstrider > The following device associated with this name was registered in September > of 1995 (via the East): > Azure, a drop spindle argent and a bordure argent semy of mullets of six > points azure. > > Denise MacMhathain > The following device associated with this name was registered in April of > 1985 (via Atenveldt): > Argent, semy of decrescents vert, a spider tergiant sable charged with a > mullet argent. > > James FitzGarth > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1985 > (via the Middle): > Vert, semy of buttercups Or, a griffin segreant, and on a chief argent, > three mullets azure. > > Joscelyn FitzHarry of Gillyflower > The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of > 1980 and converted to device and reblazoned in April of 1984 (via Caid): > Per fess arched azure, mulletty argent, and gules, semy of apples, a sun in > his splendour Or between the horns of an increscent moon argent. > > Kyneburh Boithuile > The following device associated with this name was registered in April of > 1999 (via Atlantia): > Per bend argent and azure, a mullet of eight points counterchanged, a > bordure sable semy of quatrefoils argent. > > Marie du Puy > The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1994 > (via Calontir): > Argent, a sea-horse azure within a bordure sable, semy of mullets of four > points argent. > > Olwen ferch Rhys of Aberdovey > The following device associated with this name was registered in January of > 1994 (via the East): > Vert, semy of roses argent, a horse salient and on a chief Or three mullets > of six points vert. > > Reya nam Beanntan > The following device associated with this name was registered in October of > 1985 (via the East): > Per pale argent and sable, semy of crescents, within a bordure charged with > three mullets of eight points, all counterchanged. > > Robert Runewald > The following device associated with this name was registered in February of > 1998 (via Atlantia): > Per pale azure and Or, semy of arrows inverted, a crab, on a bordure six > mullets all counterchanged. > > Sternfeld, Barony of > The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of > 1989 (via the Middle): > Gules, a mullet within and conjoined to five mullets in annulo, the whole > within and conjoined to a bordure Or, semy of mullets of four points azure. > > Talena of Western Seas > The following device associated with this name was registered in December of > 1989 (via Caid): > Sable, a mullet within the horns of a decrescent argent, all within a > bordure argent, semy of leaves vert. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Tue Aug 24 20:45:54 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:45:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: mableth? / Amy & Bill Morris writeth something that beginneth in wrongness, proceedeth in its wrongness nigh all the length of its writing, and cometh to rightness only at its ending, whereat it is nigh wholly wrong. Sorry -- I was checking something in the KJV Deuteronomy and the style rubbed off on me. (Son of a gun -- sodomy *is* forbidden in there!) > Since the semy is a field treatment and not a true charge, In the SCA, this is false, as I wrote in a previous message. To quote the SCA CoA Glossary of Terms, Field Treatment. ... Field treatments do not include the ermined furs or strewn charges. ... Semy. An adjective meaning that something is strewn with identical charges. (It is from the French sem{e'}, the past participle of the verb semer 'to strew'.) A field Azure semy-de-lys Or is blue with a pattern of gold fleurs-de-lys on it. A bordure vert semy of rowels argent is green and is charged with several (at least five and usually eight) white rowels evenly spaced around it. The charges so used are called strewn charges. When placed directly on the field, strewn charges are considered a separate charge group from any other charges. Strewn charges may be considered the primary charge group if there are no other charge groups present or if the only other charge groups present are peripheral charge groups. When placed on another charge, strewn charges are considered a tertiary charge group. Strewn charges are not considered a field treatment. Ermine spots in an ermined tincture are not considered strewn charges; they are considered part of a separate tincture. See also: Ermined Tinctures, Field Treatment, Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group, Tertiary Charge Group. Outside the SCA, I'm not sure they use the concept of "field treatment". Rouland? > this is period but rather rare (France ancient, Brittany, de > Ferrers, Albret, etc.) I don't have _Anglo-Norman Armory II_ to hand, but as best I recall it's not particularly rare at all even in the earliest days. Semy of crosses [crosslet], -de-lys, and of mullets are the examples I remember. > Most, but not all, examples are territorial arms, not personal. How would you tell whether the arms of a landed lord are "territorial" or "personal"? I had not previously considered that there might be differences in armorial style between landed folk and non-landed folk in the same land in the same time, but that was an oversight on my part. Nevertheless, given the general tendency to ape one's betters in the Middle Ages, I'd be moderately surprised to see significant differences. What evidence do you have concerning this subject? > Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for > "not compatible with period practice." Please cite one Laurel return since 1990 that would not have been boinged had there been a charge. I suspect that there have been none such since Karina, but I've not looked at Baldwin, Wilhelm, or Alison LoARs to know how they worked. > In the past most of the plain arms submissions were simply bounced for > conflict with mundane heraldry. this avoided long involved technical > discussions about how to conflict chargless devices. The other option > was to ask for two differences. Since the new rules from around 1990, there have been no technical discussions about how to conflict-check field-only armory (except for some unfortunate laxness in the current wording). 2 CDs apply to field-only armory just like any other armory, as does RfS X.1. RfS X.4.a.ii originally covered field-only armory, and now covers field-primary (field-only, with at most one of an enumerated set of uncharged peripheral charges). X.4.a.ii gives extra CDs in field-primary cases. That was, in fact, how my current arms were conflict-checked and passed: "Per chevron embattled argent and azure", 9/94. Since the Modest Proposal in 12/94, there have been fewer conflict calls versus simple non-SCA armory. The current X.4.a.ii has improved conflict-checking substantially for field-primary armory. I had to do several pages of charts based on 17 or so categories of Papworth's. > The most straight-forward interpretation of the rules would be to > consider the mullety as the primary charge. (That would contradict your initial statement that it was a field treatment; a field treatment is part of the tincture and hence not a charge.) As noted in the Glossary quote, and as noted in a Bruce precedent quoted in a previous message (Alanna? I don't recall), that's indeed the interpretation under the rules. > Actually I like this. I agree with this sentiment. Pity about the conflict. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Tue Aug 24 21:29:20 1999 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee & Sosha) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:29:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - what about... Message-ID: Talk to me at Stargate Baronial. I will be turning over a rough draft to Francois then. Donal "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > Eirik wrote: > > Also the Book of the Herald should be redone > > Sorry. That's a retirement project for former Star Principal Heralds. > > Daniel "at which point they Pass Beyond The Rim" de Lincolia > -- > *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** > Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, > tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. > tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Wed Aug 25 07:05:24 1999 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:05:24 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: > > Despite this chargeless blazons have in the past been 'boinged' for > > "not compatible with period practice." > > Please cite one Laurel return since 1990 that would not have been > boinged had there been a charge. I suspect that there have been none > such since Karina, but I've not looked at Baldwin, Wilhelm, or Alison > LoARs to know how they worked. I can cite one fairly recent, via An Tir: Gules ermined Or. Laurel ruled that that was a plain tincture, and we don't register plain tinctures. The client added an argent label, and that cleared the problem. - -Aryanhwy - ------------------------------------------------ Sara L. Friedemann sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu - ------------------------------------------------ "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" --Yeats - ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From timothy_of_glastonbury at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 07:46:19 1999 From: timothy_of_glastonbury at yahoo.com (Timothy Rayburn) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: > Bars are fesswise, cartouches are palewise. I think billets are what > you > need to consider. And eggs. And taking into consideration all the > above, > both of these suggestions are clear. > Azure semy of cartouches argent. > Azure, a cartouche argent. > Very nice. Oh, and a person always has implied permission to conflict > with > himself/herself, so that's fine, too. > > - Teceangl Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. Timothy of Glastonbury >From his account that won't spam with HTML/MIME/etc garbage. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Aug 25 08:47:37 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:47:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: Quite so, Anyanhwy. I had forgotten about plain tinctures not being registered or protected. However, the return was not for non-period style: anyone with _Simple Heraldry Cheerfully Illustrated_ can, if I remember aright, find the page whith the plain-tinctured shields and their bearers in Britain. For that matter, there's Brittany, "Ermine". Despite my infelicitous challange -- thank you Aryanhwy and Tecangl for the counter-examples -- field-only armory is not per se returned on NPS grounds, and I don't know of a time when it was. Daniel de Lincolia - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Wed Aug 25 15:23:27 1999 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy & Bill Morris) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:23:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: An Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200 would blazon in Anglo-Norman. You can borrow My copies of 'Early Blazon" and 'Eight Thirteenth-Century Rolls of Arms in French and Anglo-Norman Blazon" if you like. I can also loan you five of the Scottish Heraldry Society Rolls of Arms reprints (modern English translations). I opened Collins Roll (1296?) at random and found 3 field only arms in the first three pages, plus one with only a bordure. I will warn you that reading primary sources may disillusion you about SCA Heraldry. For example number 610, per chevron argent and ermine, Brianus Sandford. Timothy Rayburn wrote: > > > Bars... a fine, too. > > > > - Teceangl > > Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : > > In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish > (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be > determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple > rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, > including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. > > Timothy of Glastonbury > >From his account that won't spam with HTML/MIME/etc garbage. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Aug 25 16:39:16 1999 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:39:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Semy of Mullets Message-ID: At 10:45 PM 8/24/99 -0500, Daniel wrote: >I don't have _Anglo-Norman Armory II_ to hand, but as best I recall >it's not particularly rare at all even in the earliest days. I took a quick look through A-N II and found a dozen or so devices connected with individuals that have strewn charges as their primaries. There were a very large number of semy fields, but most had an ordinary on them. Some examples: John Darcy, Argent semy of roses gules Robert Mortimer, Barry or and vert, semy-de-lis counterchanged Other interesting tidbits: Strewn items tended towards the simple and common (billety, bezanty, semy-de-lys, crusilly), but some were more complex, including several examples of nine or ten martlets that we might well call semy of martlets. The most interesting thing I noticed is that ordinaries with strewn charges were fairly common, not just the bordures we see a lot in the SCA but also fesses, pales, and chevronels (!). Based on this, I'd say that Timothy's proposed device (both versions) is certainly based on a period, although not common, practice. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 26 03:09:44 1999 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Period Style? (was Inspired? Cartouche) Message-ID: > > Azure semy of cartouches argent. > > Azure, a cartouche argent. > Ok, it's clear, I'm happy ... so now I'll ask a more loaded question : > > In periodness for an Englishman from Glastonbury circa 1200ish > (sometime after Richard's death, still in John's reign, year to be > determined), how do this stack up? I tried to follow the 'simple > rules' laid out in an article I read about working for period arms, > including the short blazon and such, how did I do? Don't be kind. That early, it would most likely be billets. They were quite popular in the rolls which are found in Foster's, and a lovely simple charge. The simplicity and the semy both smack of excellent period style, BTW. - - Teceangl - -- - Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. - ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Sun Aug 29 15:52:16 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:52:16 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is an English version of Bahlow's "Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt"? If so, citation please. - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From aforsyth at uh.edu Mon Aug 30 07:08:30 1999 From: aforsyth at uh.edu (Amy Forsyth) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:08:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Sorry, There's only two editions listed in OCLC, both German (1965 and 1985). However, there is: Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 ISBN: 0924119357 It's supposed to have maps. It looks like Rice Univ. may have it. ~Addy At 05:52 PM 8/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know if there is an English version of Bahlow's "Deutschland >Geographiche Namenwelt"? If so, citation please. > >--Perronnelle > >-- >The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody >appreciates how difficult it was. > > > >============================================================================ >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Aug 30 08:53:53 1999 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:53:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: > translated by Edda Gentry ... > Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, That's the Englished Bahlow. Thanks! DdL - -- *** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS *** Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com are my work accounts. tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Mon Aug 30 10:10:03 1999 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:10:03 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Amy Forsyth wrote: > There's only two editions listed in OCLC, both German (1965 and 1985). > > However, there is: > > Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of > German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an > introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max > Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- > Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 > ISBN: 0924119357 Bahlow wrote more than one book. I'm looking for an English version of "Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt" not "Deutsches Namenlexikon" (which is reprinting in English in November). Thanks, - --Perronnelle - -- The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From pcrandal at flash.net Mon Aug 30 15:47:54 1999 From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:47:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Bahlow in English? Message-ID: Amy Forsyth wrote: > However, there is: > > Bahlow, Hans, 1900- Deutsches Namenlexikon. English Dictionary of > German names / by Hans Bahlow; translated by Edda Gentry; with an > introduction by Henry Geitz; Henry Geitz, editor. Madison, WI : Max > Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin- > Madison, 1993. DLC OCLC: 30349526 > ISBN: 0924119357 Barnes & Noble has it: Dictionary of German Names Hans Bahlow Edda Gentry (Translator) Retail Price: $22.95 Our Price: $18.36 You Save: $4.59 (20%) Ships 3-5 weeks Format: Paperback ISBN: 0924119373 Publisher: Univ of Wisconsin Pr Pub. Date: April 1999 Edition Desc: 2ND REV ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks.