Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world

From Kathri at aol.com Tue Apr 4 09:19:32 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:19:32 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - To arms! To arms! And names, too. Message-ID: <22.3ffcbbf.261b7014@aol.com> OK, gang, heads up. It's spring and I'm 60ish days from stepping down from this office, so you know what that means: Spring cleaning! Clean-up, catch-up time! Yes, once again you will be the victims of my good intentions and our success in solicting submissions. Requests for conflict checks will soon rain about your heads. The good part is: we can handle this stuff quickly and get it on to Laurel or back to the submitter without passing the ILoI or collecting gobs of commentary. Believe me, there's still plenty of stuff that can't be handled with a mere conflict check. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rayasmith at yahoo.com Tue Apr 4 15:32:51 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world] Message-ID: <20000404223251.7424.qmail@web1901.mail.yahoo.com> Haven't had time to check this site out yet, but it sounds like it might potentially be helpful. Enjoy! Andre --- thomas grimes wrote: > Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:57:14 -0500 > From: thomas grimes > Subject: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from > around the world] > To: rayasmith at yahoo.com > Reply-to: tagrimes at swbell.net > > ATTACHMENT part TEXT message/rfc822 > Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:20:15 -0500 > From: William H Grimes > Subject: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around > the world > To: Thomas Grimes > Reply-to: grimy_b at swbell.net > > http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/ >

<A HREF="http://leader.linkexchange.com/1/X1006515/clickle" TARGET="_top"><IMG SRC="http://leader.linkexchange.com/1/X1006515/showle?" ALIGN=BOTTOM WIDTH=468 HEIGHT=60 BORDER=0 VSPACE=0 HSPACE=0 ISMAP></A>

Index
This Site Features

To view the free coat of arms graphics click on the first letter of the surname of interest above, ignoring any prefix such as "Mc", "O", etc
Original material copyright
© Eddie Geoghegan
1998 - 2000.
The coat of arms graphics I create are copyright © Eddie Geoghegan and are subject to legal protection worldwide. You are free to display, copy and distribute them for non-commercial purposes, including website display (a link back to this site would would be nice). You are also free to use them for non-profit business purposes (for example, letterheads, society / clan / family stationary and the like) i.e. where the graphic is used for adornment and not as a sales inducement. They may also be used for events such as family occasions and clan gatherings and reproduced on related memorabilia provided that such items are sold on a non-profit basis. Specifically prohibited is reselling of the images or their reproduction for use on items for sale for profit (including prints, tee-shirts, badges, collectibles, etc.). Neither may the graphics be offered free of charge as an inducement to attract sales of other commercial products. If in doubt as to the legality of any proposed use please contact me. Commercial use of my graphics requires my written agreement and an appropriate fee and / or royalty payment.
Although the vast majority of armorial bearings are hundreds of years old and not subject to regulation, certain coats of arms, badges, crests etc. may also be subject separate copyright restrictions. For example the copyright of national, regional, municipal and organizational arms may lie with a government, local government, organization or other body. It is your responsibility to obey all national and international laws and regulations regarding the display of such graphics.

Over 1100 FREE graphics of coats of arms from Ireland and around the world. These graphics are arranged in alphabetical section indexed on the left of this page.
FREE preliminary reference search for coats of arms not featured on this site. More
Professional quality, full colour prints up to 11 x 16 inches, output on HP 2500C professional printer using premium quality photo paper. More
Coat of Arms graphic make up service. Bitmap graphics made to order. Suitable for screen display and even printing from your own system (though the print quality will be significantly lower than prints supplied by me). More
Full Coat of Arms search. I have over 200,000 blazons (heraldic text descriptions of coats of arms) covering most of Europe. More
Irish Family Name Histories are available for a number of prominent and not so prominent surnames. More
Beautiful Etched Glassware individually handcrafted by Doug Cowan of Northwest Creations using coat of arms templates designed by me. More
Bookstore in two sections The first covers Irish and non Irish family history, genealogy and so on. More The second relates directly to heraldry. More
A Gallery to display samples of the products I supply to order. More
Ye Olde Heraldic Shoppe where you may request searches, place orders and find out what I hope to be able to offer in the future. More
Articles relating to Proto-Heraldry in Early Christian Ireland, Heraldry in Ireland, Gaelic Irish Heraldry and Heraldic Practice, The Coats of Arms of Irish Septs, The "Meaning" of Coats of Arms, Clans and Chieftains in Ireland, Mac and O in Irish Surnames, The Distortion of Irish Surnames and Irish Personal Names. More
The customs and practice of heraldry (otherwise known as Heraldry 101). More
The Irish Language as I use it to display the Irish (Gaelic) version of surnames on coats of arms graphics. More
Testimonials, Help, Links and Awards. More
Need a search of the Irish Civil Records (births, marriages, deaths, wills, etc)? I recommend
Records Ireland based in Dublin!

Top of Page

News:

Visitors:
12 March 2000
I am back at my old location for reasons that make to to angry to mention.
1 March 2000
If you would like to vote for this site on "Paddy's 50 Fave" Irish Sites click here
23 January 2000
40 new coats of arms added to the site bringing the total to 1137
18 January, 2000, 2:40pm
I just watched, with great satisfaction, the hit counter roll over the 200,000 mark. Thank you to all the visitors, regular and occasional, who have made this site such a success. Also a special "thank you" to everyone who placed links to here on their own sites. Will we see 250,000 roll up before the end of the year?

===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Tue Apr 4 17:22:07 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene@mpan.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:22:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Known World Heraldic Symposium - PreRegistration Form Message-ID: It's Here! It's Here! (or rather, 'It's Online!' ). The PRE-REGISTRATION FORM for the Known World Heraldic Symposium to be held in Houston, Tx, last weekend in June, is now available online. The website is : www. peazy.com/KWHS.htm Dorm space is limited, but an overflow dorm may be available... so don't do the usual SCA thing, and wait till the last minute! (Or you may not be bunking in the 'Cool' dorm!) Send your REGISTRATIONS in SOON! If unable to download the MSWord doc file, please e-mail me. We still have TEACHER slots available. Please check website for list of current classes (updated weekly). Reminder! The 'PROCEEDINGS' book has a deadline of MAY 1st, please send your publications in soon. Very few articles have been received to date. AIRLINE suggestions: The website notes a special discount package with Continental Airlines, check it out. Also, you may wish to consider American Airline or Southwest Airlines (Texas preferred discount airline), both based in Dallas, with a quick turnaround to Houston. They may provide additional flight options. And, check out ticketing via the internet! Some direct airline sites are encouraging internet booking of flights by offering VERY discounted flights, but you must book EARLY! (more than 14 days advance). Remember, THIS EVENT IS FOR YOU, so only with your participation can it be a success! If questions or suggestions, please send E-MAIL DIRECTLY TO ME, not to the lists. Westgate is looking forward to having you as our guests this summer! HE Mistress Hillary Greenslade KWHS Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Tue Apr 4 23:11:20 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:11:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - armory books Message-ID: <38EAD908.E0F6844@flash.net> I was in the used book store today and found three copies of Brooke-Little's "An Heraldic Alphabet" and one copy of Fox-Davies' "A Complete Guide to Heraldry." If anyone would like one of these, email me privately at findbook at flash.net. --Perronnelle -- A gentleman is someone who is never unintentionally rude. --Oscar Wilde ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 5 08:39:31 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:39:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <38E3E297.28B730B0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <38EB5E33.4509@txcyber.com> Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so this is the first chance to look at this. When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble but here goes anyway. >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. These look to be clear of problems. >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of >five greater and five lesser points Sable. >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. These look to be clear of problems. >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for fieldless badges. "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" Anyone else care to venture into this. Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 08:49:41 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:49:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <38E3E297.28B730B0@earthlink.net> <38EB5E33.4509@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <38EB6095.59042BE@earthlink.net> Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. for better visual go to http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) HL Darius, Tressure Herald Doug Bell wrote: > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > this is the first chance to look at this. > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > but here goes anyway. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > fieldless badges. > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 5 09:15:43 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:15:43 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please (Huntsman Badge) Message-ID: <30.357d15e.261cc0af@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/2000 10:49:22 AM Central Daylight Time, dmmerlick at earthlink.net writes: > the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. But the part it obscures is the arrow shaft. To me, that makes the pheons look like a bordure (ingrailed? indented? scalloped?) rather than arrows. Either of the other two abide by the current rules, and look better to me. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 09:16:28 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:16:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BB@es05-hou.bmc.com> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two long skinny things in saltire is over used. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. for better visual go to http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) HL Darius, Tressure Herald Doug Bell wrote: > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > this is the first chance to look at this. > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > but here goes anyway. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > fieldless badges. > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 09:25:30 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world] Message-ID: <200004051625.LAA18191@serv1.jump.net> Please don't mail an entire Web page to the list! The URL alone, http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/ suffices. I went to the site. It's a well-done armorial: you get a page of mini-emblazons (one page per initial letter of a surname), and if you click on a mini, you go to a large version. A few of them link to external Web pages with further info. The problems I see are - Almost every coat is identified only by surname. In the English, and hence Irish, system, a coat of arms is originally borne by only one person, and his eldest son is the only one who inherits it undifferenced. Listing a coat with just a surname leads to the "bucket shop" fraud. In fact, looking further, he advertises a "full coat of arms search". He never says "I'll send you stuff about your family coat of arms", but rather things like "text list of coars of arms for the surname ... you specify". However, the uneducated reader will not know about the caveat above and will assume that "I'm a Murphy, therefore this is my coat of arms". - There is no supporting documentation: no names of known bearers, no dates, nada. Looking further, you can get reports with all the info he has ... for $6 and up. - A few have lousy art. Click under "N" and look at the O'Neill design, then go to the external page and see their better design. It has *some* initial use for starting research, but not that great a source. -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 09:31:11 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:31:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BB@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EB6A4F.C83E3FBC@earthlink.net> Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > for better visual go to > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > but here goes anyway. > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > fieldless badges. > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > ============================================================================ > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 09:42:36 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:42:36 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only possible conflict is: Richard of Mont Royal, the Short The following badge associated with this name was registered in June of 1973: (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are on the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:31 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > for better visual go to > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > but here goes anyway. > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > fieldless badges. > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > ============================================================================ > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:44:21 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:44:21 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35415@209.184.113.10> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I agree. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:44:35 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:44:35 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35073@209.184.113.10> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I agree. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:50:44 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35441@209.184.113.10> Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only possible conflict is: Richard of Mont Royal, the Short The following badge associated with this name was registered in June of 1973: (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. Ummm, doesn't that clear by 1 cd for fieldlessness and 1 cd for saltorel v. pheon? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 5 09:52:43 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:52:43 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <6e.1d88e7a.261cc95b@aol.com> I'm signing up for the Aelfwyn branch of telepathy, thanks, I prefer her idea: > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. (snip) "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 10:02:28 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:02:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EB71A4.61E1918@earthlink.net> Cool, I have added this one to the web page, Aelfwyn's suggestion will take a little longer. Heraldic Psychic Association meeting, you know when, you know where! :) Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. > > Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only > possible conflict is: > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > The following badge associated with this name was registered in > June of 1973: > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. > > And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are on > the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) > > --Francois ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 10:09:37 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:09:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.35415@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EB7350.AB8FF6BD@texas.net> Hang the hunting horn over the top point of the star, so that it would be hanging horizontally across the star. You'd lose no clarity, since those are both very distinctive shapes. The arrow or pheon, I'm less sure on; you can cross arrows behind the star or something like that. --Alisandre jodimc at texas.net wrote: > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that > has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. > > I agree. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran > star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines > of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears > to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." > > AElfwyn > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 10:16:11 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:16:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please In-Reply-To: <38EB71A4.61E1918@earthlink.net> References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000405121611.00dc158c@es01-aus.bmc.com> The only concern I had with a "hunting horn only" idea, as I told Francois on the phone, is regarding the similarity of hunting horns and the drinking horns that you see all over SCA events. We need to make sure this indicates Royal Huntsman instead of Royal Lush or some such... FYI: the reason Francois mentioned the possible conflict is that neither of us could remember what the heck a saltorel is... Does it have an outline that could conflict with a pheon, etc. Mari (otherwise, I like the hunting horn idea also.) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at healthaxis.com Wed Apr 5 10:20:54 2000 From: TRayburn at healthaxis.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:20:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34AFA@NRHCRE00> How about Fieldless, on a hunters horn Or a mullet of five/five sable surmounted by a pheon or. Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: Bordelon, Wendel [SMTP:Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:43 AM > To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. > > Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only > possible conflict is: > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > The following badge associated with this name was registered in > June of 1973: > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. > > And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are > on > the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:31 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > > Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two > mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? > > Darius > > "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has > always > > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring > of > > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the > two > > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star > in > a > > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > > > --Francois > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > > for better visual go to > > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > > but here goes anyway. > > > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of > five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > > fieldless badges. > > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > ========================================================================== > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > ========================================================================== > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/heralds-ansteorra.org/attachments/20000405/721531ad/attachment.html From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 10:38:46 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.35073@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EB7A26.7C667DB3@earthlink.net> OK I have Gifs of the Blackstar and hunters horn up now, I put bith a "hunters Horn" and a "Spiral Hunters Horn" up just in case. http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html Darius jodimc at texas.net wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that > has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. > > I agree. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran > star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines > of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears > to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." > > AElfwyn > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:06:57 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051906.OAA02003@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. Amen. Further, how many *other* danglies in Ansteorra have "a mullet of five greater and five lesser points" as the major element of the design? It's almost as boring as "Dragon's X" used in Midrealm awards, or "Griffin's X" in western areas, or "X Keep". > I dont think the ring of pheons will work > because of identifiablity. Amen. It looked like some sort of engrailed voided mullet. Further, I don't see how to blazon it. For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily the corners meeting. For the "two arrows in saltire" / "a sheaf of three arrows": that's overdone too. > Doesn't have to be fieldless. "Royal Huntsman" is an award, right? (Oughta be handled as a *job*, grumble grumble.) There are examples of positions held by a single person having fielded arms (the Marshal of the HRE with the (in)famous crossed swords, for example, or any number of bishophrics), but I think it really ought to be fieldless. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:17:45 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:17:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051917.OAA03133@serv1.jump.net> Darius suggested: > semy [of] pheons You don't mind, then, if the recipient of the award looks like an inmate in Her Majesty's prisons? I think the US has abandoned the striped prison garb (if ever we had it outside cartoons), but the UK may still use "semy of broadarrow [heads]" on theirs. I can't find anything about prison clothing. I only find http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/history/coveycrump/alpha/resource/b_content.htm , a fine Web page of Royal Navy slang, THE BROAD ARROW The Government mark formerly put on all solid material used in HM ships and dockyards to denote their Government ownership -similar to the Rogue's Yarn laid up in cordage. See ROGUE. The origin of the mark is obscure. Some say it was the seal of the Earls of Leicester who, in the days of Queen Elizabeth I, was responsible for all the Queen's stores. Others say it was the badge of Lord de l'isle, First Commissioner of the Ordnance at that time. An act of 1687 describes it as "His Majesty's Mark" (to be put on boundary houses in the Tower of London). An act of 1698 authorised penalties for persons found in possession of articles marked with this mark. There's a further problem: how does one put "semy of pheons" recognizably on a dangly that's maybe an inch in diameter? Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:22:55 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051922.OAA03827@serv1.jump.net> > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. ] Ummm, doesn't that clear by 1 cd for fieldlessness and 1 cd for ] saltorel v. pheon? 1 CD for fieldlessness. In general, two changes to a tertiary are needed to get a CD. However, X.4.j.ii says that "simple" cases can get a CD for just a substantial change of type of the tertiary. However, that requires (among other things) that the base charge be simple enough in outline to be voidable, and I don't know that an Ansteorran mullet is that simple. There's another possibility: that by "Star of David" they mean a Mogen David, a mullet of six points *voided and interlaced*, like on an Israeli flag. The problem is then: how do you fit anything "on" a Mogen David, when it doesn't have a solid interior to put anything on? I would also be somewhat surprised if there's not a "(Fieldless) On a sun sable a widget Or" already registered, but my initial check showed nothing. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:25:33 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:25:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051925.OAA04043@serv1.jump.net> Alisandre / Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Hang the hunting horn over the top point of the star Do you have any period examples of anything like that? I'd much prefer to suggest known period motifs; please don't suggest inventions without evidence. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 12:26:08 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:26:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004051906.OAA02003@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EB9350.D907832E@earthlink.net> The Royal Huntsman is the chosen title for the new Kingdom archery Champion to be chosen at Steppes Warlord, so not really an Award. and I will fess up to being the originator of the Mullet of Pheons (or is that five pheons in annulo sp? conjoined at base?) It was the artist in me over riding the herald. Happens more often than I will admit. Darius "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > "Royal Huntsman" is an award, right? (Oughta be handled as > a *job*, grumble grumble.) There are examples of positions > held by a single person having fielded arms (the Marshal of the HRE > with the (in)famous crossed swords, for example, or any number > of bishophrics), but I think it really ought to be fieldless. > > Daniel de Lincolia ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Wed Apr 5 12:23:39 2000 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:23:39 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily >>the corners meeting. ...five pheons in mullet... Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:31:07 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:31:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051931.OAA04647@serv1.jump.net> Mari / "Kathleen O'Brien" wrote: > the similarity of hunting horns and the drinking > horns that you see all over SCA events. Well, you can't drink from a picture of a hunting horn painted on a dangly ... A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. (Alas.) > neither of us could remember what the heck a saltorel is And to think you have them all over the place ... tsk, tsk. Saltorel: diminutive of a saltire. It's couped short of the edges of whatever it's on. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:33:21 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051933.OAA04847@serv1.jump.net> Timothy / "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > Fieldless, on a hunters horn Or a mullet of five/five sable > surmounted by a pheon or. If you mean "on a horn a mullet, on a mullet a pheon", that's an instaboing for too many layers. If you mean "a [n Ansteorran] mullet, overall a pheon", I'd expect that to be almost unrecognizable. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 13:52:10 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:52:10 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.49927@209.184.113.10> Quoth Daniel: >A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. ^^^^^^^^^ Been at the horn yourself, Daniel? >Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. >(Alas.) Still recovering from Godwyn? Or was it the kiss? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:01:44 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:01:44 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.50500@209.184.113.10> Saith the incredulous Master de Lincolia: >I would also be somewhat surprised if there's not a >"(Fieldless) >On a sun sable a widget Or" already registered, but my >initial check showed nothing. No, but what about this lovely if we wanted to drop the star: Nikolaj Zrogowacialy: (Tinctureless) A flat spiral horn of three turns reversed. Would a hunting horn be X.2 substantially changed? I'm a-doubtin' it. ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:36:47 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052136.QAA21472@serv1.jump.net> AElfwyn / jodimc at texas.net noted: > Quoth Daniel: >> A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. Lemme try that again. The hunting horn on the proposed badges page has a prominent strap, and it can be depicted as such. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:36:31 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C1@es05-hou.bmc.com> What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) --Francois -----Original Message----- From: jodimc at texas.net [mailto:jodimc at texas.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 3:52 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Quoth Daniel: >A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. ^^^^^^^^^ Been at the horn yourself, Daniel? >Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. >(Alas.) Still recovering from Godwyn? Or was it the kiss? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:40:30 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052140.QAA22473@serv1.jump.net> jodimc at texas.net / AElfwyn wrote: << No, but what about this lovely if we wanted to drop the star: Nikolaj Zrogowacialy: (Tinctureless) A flat spiral horn of three turns reversed. Would a hunting horn be X.2 substantially changed? I'm a-doubtin' it. >> I doubt it too, but it's not necessary to get X.2 to clear it. There's the fieldless / tinctureless automatic 1 CD bribe. "Tinctureless" means you can't get a tincture CD, but all the rest apply. You only need 1 more CD for type (or orientation or whatever) to clear them, and on visual or functional grounds you might get it for a three-turn horn versus a straightish one. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:37:44 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:37:44 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C2@es05-hou.bmc.com> how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily >>the corners meeting. ...five pheons in mullet... Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:41:28 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052141.QAA22806@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) How to distract a judge, technique #47: use the Bugs Bunny technique of an unexpected kiss on the smackers. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:40:51 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C4@es05-hou.bmc.com> did it work? -----Original Message----- From: tmcd at jump.net [mailto:tmcd at jump.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 4:41 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Francois wrote: > What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) How to distract a judge, technique #47: use the Bugs Bunny technique of an unexpected kiss on the smackers. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 14:47:46 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:47:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C2@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EBB482.4DA47232@earthlink.net> OK unfamiliar Blazon term, what does five Pheons in Bransle look like? "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts > >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily > >>the corners meeting. > > ...five pheons in mullet... > > Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:46:41 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:46:41 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.53198@209.184.113.10> --- Original Message --- "Bordelon, Wendel" Wrote on Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:51 -0500 ------------------ did it work? *massive chortle* Boy, did it. Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. AElfwyn, who remembers the moment fondly and with vast amusement, even if Daniel doesn't ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:53:58 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc@texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:53:58 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Daniel opined: "Tinctureless" means you can't get a tincture CD, but all the rest apply. You only need 1 more CD for type (or orientation or whatever) to clear them, and on visual or functional grounds you might get it for a three-turn horn versus a straightish one. Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. Aelfwynn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 15:01:29 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:01:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EBB7B9.20AA7E4A@earthlink.net> Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's Champion Archer" to me. Darius > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > Aelfwynn > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 15:19:50 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:19:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052219.RAA00554@serv1.jump.net> AElfwyn wrote: > Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five > minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn > or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. It was perhaps 10 seconds, which was probably a few seconds too long for maxiumum audience appreciation. Timing in comedy is everything. The misreading of later lines off the script definitely took too long. The initial stunning was because it was a guy suddenly kissing me on the lips during a performance. The continued stunning was because acting stunned was because I thought it would make the audience laugh. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 15:23:23 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:23:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > AElfwyn wrote: > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > Champion Archer" to me. No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. The king's champion is the guy in armor with a sword who rode the horse into the coronation banquet hall and upheld the king's claim. There's no period way to say "King's Champion Archer", except perhaps for the slightly-post-period Silver Arrow of S. Andrews: http://www.linksarchers.ndirect.co.uk/scottisharcher/pages/issue11/silver.htm I'd therefore rather emphasize something that *could* be period -- a huntsman with especial favour from the Crown. Daniel "The Order of John Peel?" de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:10:53 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:10:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052219.RAA00554@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBC7FD.E7C54759@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > AElfwyn wrote: > > Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five > > minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn > > or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. > > It was perhaps 10 seconds, Soooo, I exaggerate. > > The initial stunning was because it was a guy suddenly kissing me on > the lips during a performance. The continued stunning was because > acting stunned was because I thought it would make the audience laugh. > It certainly did me! AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:14:51 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:14:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBC8EB.290C12CA@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > > AElfwyn wrote: > > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > > > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > > Champion Archer" to me. > > No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable > and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the > stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. > Ooh, I *like*. Or per fess. Or Quarterly. I also like the idea of a hunting horn alone, in whatever colors, because you could do such cool things, like actually give the winner a hunting horn in the colors, or an enameled dangly in that shape, which gets to be a problem if there's a field or if it's too complicated. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:48:28 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:48:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EBD0CB.844DF300@texas.net> jodimc at texas.net wrote: > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. What about (wait for it......) (fieldless) an oliphant sable? (sorry, couldn't resist). Is there any difference between a hunting horn and any other type blowing-horn? --Alisandre ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:50:03 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:50:03 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBD12B.CC7BA8BF@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > > Champion Archer" to me. > > No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable > and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the > stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. Whyoncha have a sable horn bound, banded and strapped (or whatever) Or? --Alisandre ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 22:01:43 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:01:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C7@es05-hou.bmc.com> sorry for the delay in answer... I had to make a quick journey to Caid.... a bransle is a style of dance. War Bransle is a dance. Bransle usually have a circle of people holding hands. -Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 4:48 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please OK unfamiliar Blazon term, what does five Pheons in Bransle look like? "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts > >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily > >>the corners meeting. > > ...five pheons in mullet... > > Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From StephenMacthomas at aol.com Thu Apr 6 04:10:05 2000 From: StephenMacthomas at aol.com (StephenMacthomas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:10:05 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Field Heraldry at Crown Tournament Message-ID: Greetings unto all to whom these presents shall come from Lord Stephen Macthomas, coordinator of field heralds for Crown Tournament. I must apologize for any duplicate posts that you may or may not receive, but I am in need of volunteers to assist with heraldry at Crown Tournament during the weekend of April 14-16 in the Barony of Loch Soillier. Though I currently have a few volunteers already in place, more people make for less strain on the voice, and so I once again make the call for assistance. As coordinator of field heralds, I am responsible for not only the voice heraldry taking place on the list field, but also for the dissemination of announcements throughout the site. Lady Meliora, the event steward, has asked that I have two gentles in place for heralding the lists at the field, two for making announcements and one in charge of the Honor Board, as well as a handful of stand-by heralds available to step in when and where needed. There are certain requirements for the list heralds and the Honor Board attendant. The list heralds are required by Kingdom Law to have a current Combat Authorization Card for Non-Combat Participation, unless they are specifically invited onto the field by the marshal-in-charge. To alleviate any such special permissions during the event, I am asking that all those who would herald the list have a current authorization in hand and have prior list heraldry experience. Those tending to the Honor Board should have a certain competency with armory and blazon, so that the pairings for each round may be posted to the Board with the greatest expediency. If there is a certain aspect that you prefer to be involved with - list, announcements or the Honor Board - please let me know in advance so that I am sure to have everything covered before the event. If you wish to volunteer your service please let me know via e-mail at stephenmacthomas at aol.com. I am looking forward to working with all of you at Crown Tournament. In service to the Crown and Ansteorra, Lord Stephen ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 07:45:34 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:45:34 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406144534.97419.qmail@hotmail.com> >No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable >and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the >stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. I am new to the whole herald thing but what if there were arrows in the bell of the horn as if in a quiver, a kind of cornicopia of arrows. Cyniric acting herald of Glaslyn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 09:29:12 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:29:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004061629.LAA06196@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric, acting herald of Glaslyn / "Richard Culver" wrote: > I am new to the whole herald thing but what if there were arrows in the > bell of the horn as if in a quiver, a kind of cornicopia of arrows. I would worry a bit about damaging the horn with that! There are examples of conjoined badges in period and in the SCA. The SCA example I'm remembering was based on a period English example: it had something like "a fish head, issuant from its mouth a cubit arm sustaining something or another". If it's period and it's distinctive, I'm usually all for it. Unfortunately for this, a fish head can naturally and easily point upward. Also unfortunately, some people might think a bent arm (for ex.) issuing from a horn and holding an arrow looks weird. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:11:33 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:11:33 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406191133.53790.qmail@hotmail.com> >I would worry a bit about damaging the horn with that! Hey, it's just an idea! :Þ >There are examples of conjoined badges in period and in the SCA. >The SCA example I'm remembering was based on a period English example: >it had something like "a fish head, issuant from its mouth >a cubit arm sustaining something or another". If it's period and >it's distinctive, I'm usually all for it. Unfortunately for >this, a fish head can naturally and easily point upward. >Also unfortunately, some people might think a bent arm >(for ex.) issuing from a horn and holding an arrow looks weird. I suppose for the sake of clarification what kind of "hunting horn" do people see using, The french horn looking one, a cattle horn with a strap or some other horn? I was sick for a few days so I had a mass delete episode on my e-mail. How about the horn in Or with the sable mullet on the bell over two arrows (or a quiver for that matter) in saltaire sable? I am just grasping at ideas here. :) Cyniric ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 14:15:54 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:15:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004062115.QAA03001@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric / "Richard Culver" wrote: > How about the horn in Or with the sable mullet on the bell over two > arrows (or a quiver for that matter) in saltaire sable? I am just grasping > at ideas here. PUT THE IDEAS DOWN AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY Seriously, too many people in the SCA have two weapons in saltire, or two different widgets. ("Two unrelated widgets" is actually on Tadhg's armorial cliche list.) Sure, it's doable, but the kingdom motto is "Unicus et Singularis", Unique and Singular, so why not try to live up to it? (How's *that* for an argument?) Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 14:45:59 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:45:59 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406214600.74586.qmail@hotmail.com> >Seriously, too many people in the SCA have two weapons in >saltire, or two different widgets. ("Two unrelated widgets" >is actually on Tadhg's armorial cliche list.) Sure, it's doable, >but the kingdom motto is "Unicus et Singularis", Unique and Singular, >so why not try to live up to it? (How's *that* for an argument?) > >Daniel de Lincolia Agreed. I just figure if I have enough ideas, one of them may work (nevermind the 1000 bad ones I would go through). I would agree with, I believe it was, Darius there should be something there to indicate this person is an archer. If it is just a horn the person could be Kingdom Bugler for all anyone would know. Here is another idea (it does not help beating me, I might enjoy it): :) I may use non heraldic terms here just to get what I see across. fieldless, on an archery bow with string drawn sable an arrow shaft Or headed with the a mullet of five greater and lesser points sable all pointed to chief In case I did nt make any sense (Old English is easier the\an Heraldic). Essentially the drawn bow with the arrow of yellow with the Ansteorran star as its "head" pointing upwards as if shooting to the heavens. Cyniric ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 14:55:33 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:55:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004062155.QAA06631@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric / "Richard Culver" wrote: > fieldless, on an archery bow with string drawn sable an arrow shaft Or > headed with the a mullet of five greater and lesser points sable > all pointed to chief I'm afraid my reaction is still "SCA cliche". Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Thu Apr 6 15:21:18 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:21:18 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2CD@es05-hou.bmc.com> The web page that darius creates was sent to the Archery list. I put a quick summary of what we were discussing and why. I have not seen much feedback but what I did get was that the hunters horn sounded like a good idea. There have been no violent reactions from the archers (could be that I am still out of range of the arrows) One suggestion that was received was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. One of the best things about having a hunters horn as the badge is that the pass-along symbol of the Royal Huntsman. --Francois ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Agnarr at apex2000.net Thu Apr 6 15:39:59 2000 From: Agnarr at apex2000.net (HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:39:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <002a01bfa019$0b14c3c0$7787f9d0@Agnarr> Nope just that most of us are still in shock that this is happening (grin) HL Agnarr Premiere Archer and retiring herald of Crossrode Keep -----Original Message----- From: Bordelon, Wendel To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' Date: Thursday, April 06, 2000 5:17 PM Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge > >The web page that darius creates was sent to the Archery list. I put a >quick summary of what we were discussing and why. I have not seen much >feedback but what I did get was that the hunters horn sounded like a good >idea. There have been no violent reactions from the archers (could be that >I am still out of range of the arrows) One suggestion that was received >was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. > > >One of the best things about having a hunters horn as the badge is that the >pass-along symbol of the Royal Huntsman. > >--Francois >=========================================================================== = >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 16:20:11 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <200004062320.SAA13490@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > One suggestion that was received > was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. Some heraldic fru-fru (a technical term, of course; these are highly-trained stunt heralds on a closed list field) gets blazoned even when worth no difference, but some gets stripped by Laurel (e.g., "a fleur-de-lys florencee", "armed and langued"). Some registered examples: 6/95, Andreas Tillman von Severin: "a hunting horn ... gules stringed azure" 5/87, Anna Georgievna of Kiev: "garnished". 8/87, Arthur Lacey: "banded". 5/92, Baldred Elphinstone of Torwood: "stringed and banded". 2/82, Diego Mundox: "unstrung". 2/87, Garth ap Collin: "three h.h. in annulo sable, bowed Or". 9/83, Karl Silverhorn: "stringed and lipped". 7/86, Landolf Witkowski: "garnished" and "stringed" in sep. tinct. There are a few more examples of "stringed" not cited. I'd say we have some choice of terms and a decent case to ask Laurel to keep such heraldic fru-fru (don't try this term at home). Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Thu Apr 6 20:01:42 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:01:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) References: <200004062155.QAA06631@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38ED4F96.EB0B245B@earthlink.net> Their Majesties have stated their preference is: (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a Mullet of five greater and five lesser points Being as i am not necessarily the best at This any help doing one more conflict check on it would be appreciated. Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Thu Apr 6 20:06:41 2000 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:06:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) In-Reply-To: <38ED4F96.EB0B245B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: What is the tincture of the Mullet. If sable, we have color on color. Caelin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-heralds at ansteorra.org [mailto:owner-heralds at ansteorra.org]On > Behalf Of Darius and Monica > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:02 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) > > > Their Majesties have stated their preference is: > > (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a > Mullet of five greater and five lesser points > > Being as I am not necessarily the best at This any help doing one more > conflict check on it would be appreciated. > > Darius > ================================================================== > ========== > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing > list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 7 07:59:36 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:59:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) Message-ID: <200004071459.JAA03197@serv1.jump.net> Darius wrote: > Their Majesties have stated their preference is: > > (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a > Mullet of five greater and five lesser points [Daniel begins banging his head on the desk] So much for "Unicus et Singularis". So much for not specifying heraldic fru-fru. (Rule-of-thumb complexity count of 5 on a fieldless badge. Sigh.) Out of curiosity, what choices were they presented, and by whom? Keeping in mind that there's a school of thought that Star Principal Herald ought to be their primary heraldic advisor and kept up-to-date on all dealings with the royals? > Being as I am not necessarily the best at This ... Caelin on Andrede / "Richard Threlkeld" wrote: ] What is the tincture of the Mullet. If sable, we have color ] on color. Just a Side Note: SCA blazons capitalizes only the first word, the word "Fieldless", the tincture "Or", and any proper names. (English text capitalizes only the first word of a sentence, the pronoun "I", most acronyms, proper names, et cetera.) The blazon as given is not usable as-is. As Caelin noted, there's no tincture given for the mullet. I'll bet 20 dollars to anyone's 5 cents that the Crown wants it specifically sable; any takers? Second, the mullet cannot be "on" arrows. "On" means it's a tertiary charge, a charge lying entirely upon another charge. You can't fit anything on the shaft. Conceivably, you might charge an arrow on its head or fletching, but there's but one mullet and three arrows with separate heads and tails. [Fieldless] A sheaf of arrows gules fletched and barbed Or, overall a mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable. Close to but clear of Dragonsspine, Kirk of Wendarrow, Kuji Ka Onimusashi, Robyn McLaren, and several others. There are 71 pieces of armory with three arrows, most of them in a sheaf. I have a group meeting in 4 minutes, so I can't check now. Anyone checking a raw e-Armorial should check for "ARROW:3"; the keywords after that vary too much to search for. Daniel de Lincolia, distempered -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Fri Apr 7 07:08:18 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:08:18 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question Message-ID: <200004071516.KAA11623@blackstar.ansteorra.org> I'm attempting to help out one of our shire members finally (I thought) submit her name, device, and badge. Apparently there was some attempt at the past to submit them through another group, but that didn't happen or something, and she just got her paperwork back recently. According to the wonderful index, however, some stuff had apparently been submitted back in '96. Her name (Sl?ine an Mac- T?re) was returned in Kingdom 5/96, her badge returned, and her device pended. Alas, I have '95 gazettes, and '97 gazettes, but no '96 gazettes to look at to find out a) why, and b) what exactly it was that was returned/pended. Since this was well over 2 years ago, she knows she'll have to pay again to resubmit everything. How should I submit this? I'm not sure if what she is intending to submit now is identical to what failed in the past (I don't *think* so, except for her name), or if it's all different, or what. I haven't yet seen her name documentation. -Emma de Fetherstan Shire of Mooneschadowe -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 08:37:07 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:37:07 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? Message-ID: <6e.1e5997e.261f5aa3@aol.com> I have the following sentence on a submission form: Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names, p 145 shows Frensell = Frenzel and lists Frenezel Rosenstengel dated to 1320. My question is whether the 1320 reference is for "Frenezel" or "Frenczel" -- I believe it has the "e" but I want to make sure. Kathri, Asterisk (who *really* wishes they would hurry up and reprint that book!) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Fri Apr 7 08:40:39 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:40:39 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question In-Reply-To: <200004071516.KAA11623@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000407104039.00ddebe0@es01-aus.bmc.com> >According to the wonderful index, however, some stuff had >apparently been submitted back in '96. Her name (Sl?ine an Mac- >T?re) was returned in Kingdom 5/96, her badge returned, and her >device pended. Alas, I have '95 gazettes, and '97 gazettes, but no >'96 gazettes to look at to find out a) why, and b) what exactly it >was that was returned/pended. The Bordure set of Gazettes is at home. I can look it up for you this weekend if no one posts the info before then. >Since this was well over 2 years ago, she knows she'll have to pay >again to resubmit everything. How should I submit this? I'm not >sure if what she is intending to submit now is identical to what >failed in the past (I don't *think* so, except for her name), or if it's >all different, or what. I haven't yet seen her name documentation. It needs to go in as a Resubmitted Name. Note that the original name and the date it was returned. That way, if the new name is completely different, Asterisk can find the correct file folder for her. In any case, the pended device will need to be put on new forms. So it may just be easier to draw up the device she wants now on a new form. Then submit it as a "Resubmitted device" noting that she had a device pended at kingdom (and the date of the pend) and this new form is to replace the pended device. That way it doesn't matter what the old device looked like and she should get what she wants now. Mari ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 09:45:06 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:45:06 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2000 10:17:59 AM Central Daylight Time, jds-emma at operamail.com writes: > a) why, and b) what exactly it > was that was returned/pended. This is summarized from the Gazettes: Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked "no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle ages" which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: Black, Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p 519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to 1513. Device: Argent a bend sinister between a wolf's head couped contourny gules and three trefoils vert. Pended at Kingdom for submission of acceptable name. This was the final blazon at kingdom. There was no real problem with the device, except that we needed an acceptable name before we could send it to Laurel. There is no copy of her device form in the file, but it would be on old forms that we couldn't use now. I'd advise you to check it for conflicts again before drawing it on the current forms. (If you like, you could post a request to the Ansteorran heralds list; they have been very helpful to me about conflict checks. And they're much better at it than I am!) Badge: Proposed blazon - Or, a wolf couchant gules head to sinister bearing in its mouth a sword reversed bendwise with dexter paw raised over the point, a collar fracted, the rear legs crossed with the dexter paw draped over the back and the tail nowed and erect. Returned for unblazonable position. The Gazette states "Submitter is encouraged to register a heraldic beast in a heraldic position, then use artistic license for any other details." To the CoH, this looked like an attempt to register a knotwork beast in the style of Celtic illumination, and that's not heraldry. It's artwork, but it's not heraldic art. She's more likely to succeed with, for instance, "Or a wolf couchant regardant gules [bearing in its mouth a sword reversed bendwise]." Then she can put the feet anywhere she wants once it's registered, but the copy that goes to Laurel would need to be a standard "wolf couchant" with feet flat on the ground beneath it. And of course, check for conflict before bothering to put it on forms. I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern and diligence on behalf of your submitters. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Fri Apr 7 10:36:58 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:36:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the >names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. > >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of >dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle ages" >which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: Black, >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to >1513. Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine construction" precedent. If I remember correctly, is a feminine name. Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'. So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine patronymic byname. In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally. And since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form is not registerable. There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), whether to change the particle to or , etc. >I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern >and diligence on behalf of your submitters. I'd like to thank you as well. It's so helpful to the submitters when someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission. Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something registered that she likes. Mari, Bordure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Fri Apr 7 11:28:37 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:28:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> References: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> Message-ID: <200004071937.OAA15952@blackstar.ansteorra.org> > There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are > registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, > language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what > direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an > Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to > 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), > whether to change the particle to or , etc. Thanks to both you and Kathri for help with this. I don't know (yet) what form she plans to register -- I'll get that from her Tuesday. I can guarantee she wants the "Sl[a']ine", but am not sure of the rest. The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Also, her original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find references the tail at all). -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 14:08:38 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:08:38 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <3c.27171de.261fa856@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2000 2:37:59 PM Central Daylight Time, jds-emma at operamail.com writes: > The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules > maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work > on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Either will work, if the badge is clear of conflict. Experts, what say you? > Also, her > original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be > explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find > references the tail at all). No, don't blazon it. The position of the tail isn't part of the definition of 'couchant' and it varies. Some are curled up over the back, some are "erect," some are wrapped around the beast, some are below the beast, and there are quite a few that go under the back of the body and then back up between the hind leg and the side to wave merrily in the air. It's not usually blazoned. Out of the first 200 examples in the O&A, the tail was blazoned only 7 times. And in most of those cases, something Rather Odd was happening -- by which I mean something besides what I've listed above! Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 9 11:54:41 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? In-Reply-To: <6e.1e5997e.261f5aa3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2000 Kathri at aol.com wrote: > I have the following sentence on a submission form: > > Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names, p 145 shows Frensell = Frenzel and lists > Frenezel Rosenstengel dated to 1320. > > My question is whether the 1320 reference is for "Frenezel" or > "Frenczel" -- I believe it has the "e" but I want to make sure. Here's what Bahlow has, verbatim: Frensel = Frenzel. ... Frenzel (UGer.-Sil.) = Franz, see this. Frenczel Rosenstengel, Brsl. 1328. Cf. Bahlow SN, p. 58. and back on p. 143 s.n. Franz: Franz, Frantz: after St. Francis of Assisi (died 1220), see Bahlow VN, p. 34. Nickns. Fr{a"}nzel, Frenz(e)l (UGer., also Sil.), also Sil. Franzke (with Slav. k-suffix). LGer. patrs. Frantzen, Franssen (L.Rhine). But Frentz(en), Frenssen (Holstein) means Lafrenz = Laurentius [Laurence]! Fr{a"}nznick means Nikolaus Franz. Dan. de Linc. (AN.) -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Sun Apr 9 13:45:06 2000 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee Cavett) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) References: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38F0EBD2.DCD3EFE2@texas.net> If I recall correctly, Slaine was trying to submit "mac-tire" as a byname not a patronymic, and had found something somewhere that indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf. Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that much. Donal Kathleen O'Brien wrote: > > >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the > >names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked > >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. > > > >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't > >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of > >dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from > >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle > ages" > >which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists > >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, > >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: > Black, > >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p > >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to > >1513. > > Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of > the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine > construction" precedent. > > If I remember correctly, is a feminine name. > > Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic t-saoir> as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'. > > So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine > patronymic byname. In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or > Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally. And > since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form is > not registerable. > > There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are > registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, > language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what > direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an > Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to > 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), > whether to change the particle to or , etc. > > >I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern > >and diligence on behalf of your submitters. > > I'd like to thank you as well. It's so helpful to the submitters when > someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission. > Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something > registered that she likes. > > Mari, Bordure > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. -- "All kings is mostly rapscallions." Mark Twain (1835-1910) - The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn "?, is r?mh?r ? neart mar fhathach; ach is r?dhroch ? a us?id mar fhathach..." (O, it is excellent to have a giant's strength, but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant...) William Shakespeare (translated to the Irish - every once in a while even the Sassenachs come up with a good line) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 10 01:30:08 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <200004071937.OAA15952@blackstar.ansteorra.org> from Jennifer Smith at "Apr 7, 2000 01:28:37 pm" Message-ID: <200004100830.BAA17292@agora.rdrop.com> > The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules > maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work > on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Also, her > original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be > explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find > references the tail at all). Fieldless. Not for style problems, but to clear conflict. "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper" is in conflict with James the Fox - July of 1971: Or, a fox rampant guardant gules. Only one CD for posture change. However, if you remove the field you have the second, and clearing, CD. Nothing else would seem to conflict with "A wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper" as a fieldless badge. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 10 06:40:22 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:40:22 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <76.2d4de21.262333c6@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/2000 3:36:50 PM Central Daylight Time, catsden at texas.net writes: > the submitter had found something somewhere that > indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf. True. From the documentation: _A Pronouncing and Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language_, Malcolm MacLennan (University Press, Aberdeen, 1979, photolithographic reproduction of the first edition, 1925, published by John Grant, Edinburgh), p 610 shows: wolf, s. madadh-allahd; mac-tire; faol Also _Book of Irish Names_, Coghlan, R et al, (Sterling Pub Co, NY,NY, 1989) p 127 in chapter "Root Words" shows: Mac-tire (macteera), a wolf; *micteera, victeera* (Kathri is back now---) Coghlan is no longer allowed as a name source (due to proven inaccuracy and unreliability), and a dictionary definition does not prove that a word was ever used as a name. So the existing documentation doesn't work. I think the submitter should be advised to document the name she wants any way she can, without worrying about meaning, and register the arms she wants if they don't conflict. If she believes they are canting arms, that's fine, especially if they really are. Either way, the College of Heralds will have done its job. > Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that > much. Me, too! I don't remember this much about submissions that went through last month! Never mind 1996! Kathri, * ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 10 07:10:16 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:10:16 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? Message-ID: In a message dated 4/9/2000 1:57:01 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net writes: > Here's what Bahlow has, verbatim: Thanks, Daniel, and to Magnus for the private post, as well. This reference has been checked. Kathri, * ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Apr 10 21:52:59 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:52:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Herald authorization Message-ID: This is from Sir Kief, reprinted with permission. I thank him for his sane and convenient policy. Even though I don't set foot on the list field, and I have no authorization card, I still plan to be cautious near the field, as fighters do occasionally come to the ropes. I plan to keep an eye on the combat constantly -- as a field herald, I have to anyway, to see when there is victory -- and I think anyone, authorized or no, ought to do the same when in reach of the list field. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:09:19 CDT From: Kief av Kiersted To: tmcd at jump.net Subject: Re: Fwd: Herald authorization Heilsa Good my Brother Daniel...! You did ask: >>Please clear something up for me. Does a herald have to have >>an authorization card, even if he never steps on the list field >>and makes all calls from outside? >> >>DdL If the herald never enters the field then they do not have to have an Authorization Card. The AC is necessary for those folks that put themselves "in harm's way"...even in a manner that would practically never bring them into combat range. Entering the field of combat or the melee field on "official" business entertains a slight risk of injury even between bouts or, in the case of melee, between battles. The AC insures that (hopefully) the herald, waterbearer, et cetera has been informed of when they can enter the field and what the basic marshal's commands are all about. I do hope that this explains my position on the AC for many of our non-contact participants. Wæs Þu Hæl kinsman...! Kief - EM Ansteorra "Better the Hammer than the nail..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From ly_juliana at hotmail.com Tue Apr 11 19:34:30 2000 From: ly_juliana at hotmail.com (Dianna Fowler) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:34:30 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - World Geography Class Message-ID: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> Please excuse me, my daughter needs to talk with someone that has immigrated from the former USSR. This is for a freshman world geography class project. Thank you for your time, Juliana Foulare mka Dianna Fowler Ravensfort Ansteorra ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Tue Apr 11 21:56:17 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:56:17 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question References: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Good evening to all, I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) Also, I am trying to submit my name as Rufus Guthrie. The persona would be lowland Scots Late 14th Century. Would Rufus be to early? I can find a source saying William II was nicknamed Rufus approx. 1118. Is there too much of a gap here? Thanks for the help, Rufus, at least for now!!! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 11 21:33:39 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> from Kendall Johnson at "Apr 11, 2000 09:56:17 pm" Message-ID: <200004120433.VAA09908@agora.rdrop.com> > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per Saltire sable > and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) Spelling is fine, you only need to capitalize the first word in the blazon (SCA standard is that only Or gets the capital letter), and we'll need a tincture for that cross before it can be checked. > Also, I am trying to submit my name as Rufus Guthrie. The persona would be > lowland Scots Late 14th Century. Would Rufus be to early? I can find a > source saying William II was nicknamed Rufus approx. 1118. Is there too much > of a gap here? Lowland?? Cool! Guthrie is great. Black's _The Surnames of Scotland_ has a large entry on the name, dating it first from 1299, through the middle ages after that, and giving quite a few alternative spellings throughout. No worries on that, the spelling "Guthrie" is dated 1299, 1348, 1388, the spelling "Guthre" is found in 1464 and 1473, and back to "Gutherie" in 1624. Your chosen spelling should be very acceptible for the late 14th century (see 1388 dating above). Rufus, unfortunately, is a problem. It seems to have been used exclusively as a nickname before the 19th c. You could then be Rufus Guthrie, but Rufus won't fly as a medieval personal name. Allow me to suggest the article "13th & 14th Century Scottish Names" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/symonFreser/scottish14/ as a place to peruse dated Scottish names which would make good personal names. Here's what the Academy of Saint Gabriel had to say on : was originally a Latin byname meaning 'red(-haired)'; it survived as a rare surname at least into the 19th century. [3] We have no evidence that it was used as a given name much before the 19th century [4]. Therefore, we cannot recommend that your friend uses as a given name, no matter what his hair color is. [3] Bardsley, Charles, _A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames_ (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1980); s.n. Rufus. [4] Dunkling, Leslie and William Gosling, _The New American Dictionary of First Names_ (New York: Signet Books, 1983); s.n. Rufus. Of course, a man with a very common personal name, like Ihon (John) or William or Thomas, would most likely be known by his nickname more than his given name for the same reasons that modern men named John or Robert often have nicknames. So the name "William Rufus Guthrie" is not only a fine Scottish Lowlands name for the late 14th century, it's also one which would result in the bearer being called Rufus to difference him from all those other Williams out there. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Tue Apr 11 22:04:50 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:04:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Rufus Guthrie References: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Message-ID: <38F403F2.6260@txcyber.com> Greetings Rufus in the far West of our kingdom in the fair shire of Adlersruhe. William the Conquerer was succeeded by his son William called Rufus. He was an very unusual king. Rufus is found in Scotland as a last name but it probably wasn't used as a first name historically. That having been said it can be used as a first or given name in the SCA because of the saints by that name. If you want it, it is registerable, if not 100% historically accurate. From Laurels Letters February 1994 LoAR under Middle Kingdom acceptances "Rufus of Stamford. Name and device. Per pale argent and sable, two cedar trees counterchanged on a chief wavy Or three arrowheads inverted sable, and a base azure. As noted in the 1990 registration of Rufus Barbarossa, a Rufus of Capua was honored as a martyr in the Sarum calendar and several 15th century monastic calendars. Rufus would thus appear to be an acceptable given name." Morlet, Marie-Therese. Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de L'Ancienne Gaule du VI au XII Siecle. Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique: Paris, 1972. Volume 2 page 99 under Rufus dates the name to 541-549 AD. Book of Saints by Benedictine monks of St. Augustine Abbey, Ramsgate, 6th ed., A. & C. Black Ltd. London, 1989. There are several saints named Rufus among these: Rufus of Metz 400 AD Rufus of Capua 295 AD Rufus of Avignon 200 AD Rufus of Rome 90 AD As for Guthrie Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland, page 333 under Guthrie gives Adam de Guthrie from 1348. So much for Rufus Guthrie. Per saltire sable and ermine, a cross bottony. What color is the cross? I am guessing Or because of the field contrast and argent would get lost in the ermine field. A cross bottony must also be checked against a cross crosslet among others. A cross as a sole primary charge can be very nasty to check and clear of conflict. There is only one per saltire sable and ermine registered as a field. yours in service Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Tue Apr 11 21:11:32 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per > Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) A cross bottony *what*? We need a tincture for the cross. Just to be sure, you might want to describe it in plain English. To be sure of what's been said so far, "per saltire" is a division of the field that looks like (set a fixed-width font if necessary): \ / X / \ The top and bottom slices are black, and the side slices are ermine (white background containing black ermine spots). Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Wed Apr 12 08:00:31 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:00:31 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question References: Message-ID: <001b01bfa48f$d9a7e1c0$d264fea9@vulcan> sorry, forgot about the cross. It would be counter charged over all. thanks again, Rufus ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per > > Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) > > A cross bottony *what*? We need a tincture for the cross. > > Just to be sure, you might want to describe it in plain English. To > be sure of what's been said so far, "per saltire" is a division of the > field that looks like (set a fixed-width font if necessary): > > \ / > X > / \ > > The top and bottom slices are black, and the side slices are ermine > (white background containing black ermine spots). > > Daniel de Lincolia > -- > Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; > if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. > "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- > thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 12 09:19:54 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:19:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question Message-ID: <200004121619.LAA19153@serv1.jump.net> Rufus / "Kendall Johnson" rote: > the cross. It would be counter charged over all. "Counterchanged", not "countercharged". In the past, and I think sometimes in real-world armory, "overall" has had at least two meanings, including the meaning you intend. Currently in the SCA, it means solely "a charge partially overlying another charge and partially directly on the field". Since there is only one charge in this design, there can be no overall charges. Final blazon: Per saltire sable and ermine, a cross bottony counterchanged. I have one other armorial style note: some people who have gone for ermine have regretted it the first time they went to paint, embroider, or otherwise realize the design. One person, coloring N copies of his submission form, said "I repent me of my sin of ermine", and changed the submission on the spot. You might want to consider this factor. > Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; > if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. > "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- > thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) And with unquoted line breaks too. Unfortunately, you're not alone in the club. When replying to a message, please use your mail composing editor (delete key, select-block-and-delete, whatever) to trim the quoted text to the minimum necessary to establish the context of your reply. Note that I quoted only one line of yours, because that's all I needed. Also, please put replies *after* the quote, because it makes more sense that way. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 12 10:52:16 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:52:16 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: Heraldry submissions (Another typo.) Message-ID: In a message dated 4/11/2000 5:39:37 PM Central Daylight Time, debell at txcyber.com writes: > From ILOI 0300 currently under commentary > 17) Ricardo Estaban de Salamanca new name. > The name is Esteban in Elsbeth's article on Spanish names > which I have in front of me as well as in Melcon'a book. > > If this is a typo (snip) It's a typo. The forms and documentation all have Esteban with an "e" in the middle. Correction will be documented in the April Gazette (if Aelfwyn is kind) and in the AICC. (I got it right on his device in the April Gazette!) Kathri * * I think I need to make a typing test part of the application for this job. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Doug Bell Subject: Heraldry submissions Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:39:43 -0500 Size: 1646 Url: /pipermail/heralds-ansteorra.org/attachments/20000412/55dbe84e/attachment.mht From rayasmith at yahoo.com Wed Apr 12 15:41:16 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check Message-ID: <20000412224116.20872.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian_Smith at Dell.com wrote: > From: Brian_Smith at Dell.com > To: rayasmith at yahoo.com > Subject: RE: BG - Tuesday Night Heraldic > Consultation > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:45:26 -0500 > > Ray, > > I consulted with, you I believe, last night on a > badge. It was Fieldless on > bend a lion's jambe (aka paw, leg) argent erased. I > have gone to the SCA > hearldy web site and attempted to search all of > their forms for "lion's > paw", and the other two names, but I didnt come up > with any hits. Usually > I'ld be happy with that but I'm not sure that I'm > searching correctly. Can > you either search for conflicts on this badge or > better yet suggest which > form and what sentax to use in the search? > > Thanks, > Don Brian Cameron > Can anyone conflict-check this badge for me, as I still have spotty and limited access to the net and don't have time to check this at the library, pretty please? Thank you - Andre de Chartres ===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 12 17:03:13 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:03:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check Message-ID: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Andre / Ray Smith wrote: > RE: BG - Tuesday Night Heraldic Oh, dear. Did that go on anyway, with all the rain? I assumed it was going to be called off! > Don Brian Cameron / Brian_Smith at Dell.com wrote: > > Fieldless on bend a lion's jambe (aka paw, leg) argent erased. ... Problem (as is usual when someone isn't completely familiar with armory; better in such cases to describe it in plain English). Is it a jambe on a bend? If so, the blazon says the jambe and the bend are the same tincture, so the leg would disappear (and the badge would be returned). Is it a jambe bendwise in some way? > > to the SCA hearldy web site and attempted to search all of their > > forms for "lion's paw", and the other two names, but I didnt come > > up with any hits. The categories start with "LEG AND FOOT-BEAST" in the internal coding. However, the primary charge here is the bend couped, if there is a bend at all. (You can't have a plain bend on a fieldless badge: there's no edge of the shield to end the ordinary.) In such a case, the leg is a tertiary and will at most contribute 1 CD. A thingy on a bend couped is not any period style badge I've seen. Does the client want just a lion's jambe in some orientation and tincture? That would be fine style, and they could display it on any tincture they liked. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Apr 12 18:49:02 2000 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:49:02 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check In-Reply-To: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000412204902.006aaef0@admin.stedwards.edu> At 07:03 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does the client want just a lion's jambe in some orientation and >tincture? That would be fine style, and they could display it on any >tincture they liked. He wants (Fieldless) A lion's jambe erased bendwise argent. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Apr 12 19:03:34 2000 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:03:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000412204902.006aaef0@admin.stedwards.edu> References: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000412210334.006a37f8@admin.stedwards.edu> At 08:49 PM 4/12/00 -0500, I wrote: >He wants (Fieldless) A lion's jambe erased bendwise argent. I don't see any conflicts. There aren't all that many items under Leg--Beast in the Ordinary. The closest two are: Berhtrad Athalbrand von Strassburg (Fieldless) A lion's gambe bendwise erased argent, sustaining by the blade a sword bendwise sinister sable 1 CD for fieldless vs. fieldless; 1 for adding sustained charge Elsa de Lyon Azure, a lion's jambe erased bendwise shackled and chained with a broken chain within a bordure embattled argent 1 CD for fieldless vs. fielded; 1 for adding bordure Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Wed Apr 12 19:35:10 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:35:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - name documentation fun - Sla'ine Message-ID: <200004130300.WAA19965@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Okay, I've had a chance to talk with Sla'ine about her name. She'd started paperwork after "an Mac-Tire" bounced to try "Sla'ine the Wolf". She did find a reference to an Irish family that in late period used the surname "Fox", with the chief of the family using "The Fox", due to some ancestor in the 11th century who became known as "an Sionnach (the fox)". This does not look to me to be great documentation for this type of name, but I'm sort of at a loss as to where to go next. I believe she will accept either Sla'ine the Wolf or Sla'ine . -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 12 23:39:19 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:39:19 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - name documentation fun - Sla'ine References: <200004130300.WAA19965@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <38F56B97.42D@txcyber.com> Sla'ine ingen (Patronymic) mac tire might just work. It is all Gaelic and mac tire meaning son of the land (wolf) may be able to be used as a descriptive byname refering to the father or for the grandfather. Some Patronymics for the fathers name that refer to wolves. Conall - strong as a wolf Conamail - wolflike Congal - fierce as a wolf Conma'el - wolf warrior If you wanted to leave Gaelic there are Slanina MacTyre or Slanina le Wulf (Wolf) Mari has been working with Gaelic lately so get her opinion on this. Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 13 20:12:53 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:12:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - OT: Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus Message-ID: This is completely off-topic for any heraldic list. I am a *bad*, *bad* man. Mistress Jaelle will be punishing me momentarily. http://www.guerilla.u-net.com/mp/fz.htm is a Web page for Guerilla Films. One thing they are offering is "Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus", two MP episodes that were filmed for German television in 1971 and 1972. The first one is in German ("What English scripts? I was told you all speak German.") with English subtitles. The second is in English. Some skits are from the series, some later were done at the Hollywood Bowl, some are unique. 'Graham Chapman said of the programmes: "It was probably a stage further than any of the BBC TV shows in terms of absurdity and peculiar starts, and it lacked any sort of thread to keep the audience sane."' '"The happiest event since the invention of brain surgery." -- Pisso the Alcoholic Dog' It is available by mail order only, in VHS NTSC (US and anywhere civilized) and VHS PAL (anywhere civilised). With Visa, MasterCard, JCB, or Switch, it's #10.99 with free air-mail shipping and handling. At current exchange rates, that's US$17.50. (It's $28 by cheque.) That Web page again: http://www.guerilla.u-net.com/mp/fz.htm Daniel "yah dee buckety, rum ping kadoo, ni ni ni, yaaoooo!" de Lincolia (Note: I am well aware of the original meaning of "momentarily" and that the US is excluded from both.) -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Fri Apr 14 07:29:09 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:29:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - A new Star in the future Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C304@es05-hou.bmc.com> Unto the members of the Ansteorran College of Heralds does Francois la Flamme, Star Prinipal Herald, for a short time more, sends heartfelt greetings! Their Royal Magesties informed the applicants and myself of Their choice. Honorable Lord Borek will be the next Star. The transfer of office will be done at Crown Tournement. I have enjoyed leading such a fine group but am looking forward to the release from office. Thank you all for your help in during my term in office. Without your hard work , I would not have looked so good. Thank you. --Francois, Star/sable roundel ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From morganson at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 08:10:12 2000 From: morganson at hotmail.com (Jerry Dreifuerst) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:10:12 GMT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list Message-ID: <20000414151012.89670.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings Heralds of Ansteorra, Othar here. I recently took on the duties of Herald for Stargate. Griffin ap Rhys (of past posting as Robert de Mohun) has been helping me organize and handle the reams of paper and volumes of books that come with the office. Your helpful hints and comments will be very welcome. Yours in service, Centurion Othar Morganson Othar Morganson, of the Barony of the Stargate, in the Kingdom of Ansteorra, may be reached at: morganson at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Fri Apr 14 11:02:11 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:02:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list References: <20000414151012.89670.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38F75D23.1DF8@txcyber.com> Othar Remember the most useful book for heralds is the SCA Pic Dic. Herald's tables should always have trays of food to lure unsuspecting members of the populace into range of the attack heralds. Best of luck to ye Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From culn97 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 14 13:56:17 2000 From: culn97 at yahoo.com (Rod Jackson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list Message-ID: <20000414205617.8414.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com> Othar, Chocolate makes real good bait!! Cullinn --- Doug Bell wrote: > Othar > > Remember the most useful book for heralds is the SCA > Pic Dic. > > Herald's tables should always have trays of food to > lure > unsuspecting members of the populace into range of > the > attack heralds. > > Best of luck to ye > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to > perform mailing list tasks. > ===== Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Mon Apr 17 13:03:19 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:03:19 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge Message-ID: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Can someone help me conflict check this, and/or tell me if there's anything that needs to be changed? Fieldless, on a lozenge dovetailed purpure an equal-armed celtic cross couped plain argent. (May be a bit wordy -- it's the thingy on the bottles in http://www.generich.com/elfsea/GulfWar00/caelin-gw00-41.jpg) -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Mon Apr 17 14:37:08 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:37:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge References: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <38FB8404.3F3@txcyber.com> A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. The device would become Purpure, an equal armed Celtic cross argent. LoAR May 1996 Returns - DRACHENWALD Ragna Kolgrimsdotti [(Fieldless) On an oval azure a horseshoe argent] "If a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge: such a design is interpretable as a display of arms, with the tertiary as a primary. For instance, we don't permit [Fieldless] On a lozenge argent a fleur-de-lys gules: since the lozenge is a medium for heraldic display, this looks like a display of Argent a fleur-de-lys gules. 1) Purpure, an equal armed Celtic cross argent. Gormflait Suiban ni Cuallachta January of 1973: Gyronny Or and azure, a Celtic cross argent, fimbriated sable. I think the field and fimbriation would give this 2 CDs since the fimbriation is treated as another cross on the first one. 2) It could have an argent field. The argent field looks to conflict with George Emerson True March of 1988 (via the East): "Argent, on a lozenge palewise throughout purpure, a winged lion rampant guardant to sinister, wings elevated and addorsed, argent." There should be a CD for type for the dovetailing but I am not sure about a CD for throughout. 3) If could have an Or field. The Or field looks to be clear of conflict. If you like one of the three alternatives here grab Daniel or Gwenllian and get one of them to do another conflict check. Yours in service Magnus von L?beck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Apr 17 15:09:31 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:09:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge Message-ID: <200004172209.RAA18245@serv1.jump.net> Magnus / Doug Bell wrote: > A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. A charged *plain* lozenge. Note the precedent quote: "If a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge". I don't see how a "lozenge dovetailed", the instant case, could possibly be considered a "medium for heraldic display". Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Mon Apr 17 15:08:57 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:08:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge In-Reply-To: <38FB8404.3F3@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <200004172214.RAA07158@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Magnus von L?beck wrote: > A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. > The device would become Purpure, an equal armed Celtic > cross argent. > LoAR May 1996 > Returns - DRACHENWALD Ragna Kolgrimsdotti > [(Fieldless) On an oval azure a horseshoe argent] "If > a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, > it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge: such a > design is interpretable as a display of arms, with the > tertiary as a primary. For instance, we don't permit > [Fieldless] On a lozenge argent a fleur-de-lys gules: > since the lozenge is a medium for heraldic display, > this looks like a display of Argent a fleur-de-lys gules. A plain lozenge would be obvious, yes, as would a roundel or an oval, etc, but a lozenge dovetailed? That was where I was most unclear. It doesn't look to *me* like a medium for heraldic display, but that's why I'm asking. :) > 2) It could have an argent field. > The argent field looks to conflict with George Emerson > True March of 1988 (via the East): > "Argent, on a lozenge palewise throughout purpure, a > winged lion rampant guardant to sinister, wings elevated > and addorsed, argent." > There should be a CD for type for the dovetailing > but I am not sure about a CD for throughout. Of the suggested alternates, this is the best one. -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 17 20:10:52 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge In-Reply-To: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> from Jennifer Smith at "Apr 17, 2000 03:03:19 pm" Message-ID: <200004180310.UAA11705@agora.rdrop.com> > Fieldless, on a lozenge dovetailed purpure an equal-armed celtic > cross couped plain argent. Stick the fieldless designation into brackets. Consider it a scribal standard, not part of the blazon. All right, by putting a complex line on the lozenge you remove the appearance of a shape for heraldic display, and can therefore have a lozenge as a fieldless badge. I give you this registration from February 1999: Kenric Bjarnarson (Fieldless) On a lozenge ploye, two pheons in pale conjoined at the base throughout Or. The blazon looks fine, since the cross is most definitely couped to follow the edges of the lozenge. No consideration of conflict, but the client might wish to know about this one: Brenna Lowri o Ruthin - January of 1990 (via Meridies): (Fieldless) On a lozenge engrailed Or, an equal-armed Celtic cross azure. I wouldn't even consider a visual confusion on this, though, with the totally different colours and line treatment. It's just my policy to inform clients about similar stuff which is already registered. This is quite clear. Makes a great wine label, too. :) - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cahira_of_bonwicke at yahoo.com Mon Apr 17 23:02:33 2000 From: cahira_of_bonwicke at yahoo.com (Cahira) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... Message-ID: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings! I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my barony is trying to document her name, and I don't know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything you can give me would be wonderful and greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cahira of Bonwicke __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 17 23:34:03 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... In-Reply-To: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> from Cahira at "Apr 17, 2000 11:02:33 pm" Message-ID: <200004180634.XAA27450@agora.rdrop.com> > I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know > almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my > barony is trying to document her name, and I don't > know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina > and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything > you can give me would be wonderful and greatly > appreciated. Start at the Academy of Saint Gabriel Library: http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/ or The Medieval Names archive: http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/ I found in the article "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html which is linked to both the above pages. and are in the article "Flemish Names from Bruges, 1400-1600" at http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/ And is in "Sixteenth Century Norman Names" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/cateline/norman16.html Caterina is also found in the Italian women's names listings on those pages. It's also found in the article "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/talan/reaney/ Remember that many English names are rooted in Normandy, so that's a good reference to check for French names, too. You're doing great. I got up in front of my shire and said, "I don't really know much yet, but I know where to get help." They made me their herald. Now I'm helping other people. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 19 05:28:21 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:28:21 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <7a.41ac14b.262f0065@aol.com> Please let me know if this device conflicts with anything: Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. Thanks, Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at healthaxis.com Wed Apr 19 05:40:25 2000 From: TRayburn at healthaxis.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:40:25 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34B51@NRHCRE00> Precedent Question : I know that Fleur-de-lys are stylized Lilies. Do they conflict check against them? If they conflict check against, are lillies subject to Fleur-de-lys precedents? If they are subject to such, then this would run afoul of the reservation of 3 or more gold fleur-de-lys being reserved for France, right? Timothy -----Original Message----- From: Kathri at aol.com [SMTP:Kathri at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 7:28 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Please let me know if this device conflicts with anything: Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. Thanks, Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 19 08:18:52 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <200004191518.KAA18977@serv1.jump.net> I haven't checked precedents, but I would not expect a natural lily and a fleur-de-lys to conflict. I believe that, despite the name, the origins of the FDL are somewhat obscure. However, if there was no CD, then they'd pretty much be considered artistic variants, and the prohibition of France would indeed apply. That was an excellent point to bring up and good thinking. Daniel "broad*arrow*, broad*arrow*, broad*arrow*" de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 19 10:48:32 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:48:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fleur-de-lys References: <200004191518.KAA18977@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38FDF170.1AA8@txcyber.com> As Daniel often suggests the Pic Dic was consulted. The Lily and Fleur-de-lys are separate charges in period so they are heraldically different. That certainly eliminates lots of items to check. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 19 11:10:54 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:10:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) References: <7a.41ac14b.262f0065@aol.com> Message-ID: <38FDF6AE.56AC@txcyber.com> Kathri Aelfraed Hawkmoon December of 1987 (via Atenveldt): Argent, on a bend sinister, doubly cotised, azure a hawk rising, wings displayed and inverted, and an increscent moon, both palewise, argent. Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. There is a CD for changes to the tertiaries on the bend and should be a CD for double vs single cotising for addition of a secondary. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 19 11:29:00 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <200004191829.NAA02974@serv1.jump.net> Magnus / Doug Bell wrote: > and should be a CD for double vs single cotising for > addition of a secondary. To be more precise, for changing the number of an existing group of secondaries (X.4.f). Daniel de L -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Wed Apr 19 12:45:00 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:45:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... References: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38FE0CBC.4CAC97E9@flash.net> Cahira wrote: > I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know > almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my > barony is trying to document her name, and I don't > know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina > and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything > you can give me would be wonderful and greatly > appreciated. Generally speaking, French feminine names end in -e and not -a. Modern French uses "C" for the "K" sound, but Teceangl was able to supply several examples beginning with "K" so you should be all set. Nothing in Dauzat's "Noms de Personne" that's close. Lots of other "Catherine" variants. --Perronnelle -- A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 20 01:09:57 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) In-Reply-To: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34B51@NRHCRE00> from "Rayburn, Timothy" at "Apr 19, 2000 07:40:25 am" Message-ID: <200004200809.BAA20951@agora.rdrop.com> > I know that Fleur-de-lys are stylized Lilies. Do they conflict check > against them? > > If they conflict check against, are lillies subject to Fleur-de-lys > precedents? > > If they are subject to such, then this would run afoul of the reservation of > 3 or more gold fleur-de-lys being reserved for France, right? Thanks for the call, Timothy. Unlike Daniel, I did go check precedents. :P I found this back in Bambi's stuff, nothing since: [One commenter] has shown there was apparently a difference noted by heralds in period between the stylized fleur-de-lys and the natural lily flower since the arms of Eton College contain both used in a cadency context. Under the new rules this is enough to determine that a difference of type may be granted, assuming no real possibility of confusion. (LoAR 17 Jun 90, p. 4) So no worries there. No problem of conflict (bends and bends sinister are X.2. different), but I thought you might want to know about this one: Rowan le Beau - March of 1998 (via AEthelmearc): Argent, on a bend cotised azure a lily palewise Or between two others argent. It's my personal policy to notify clients of such things as exact outline and mirror-imaging, even though it has nothing to do with conflict. (Keeps 'em from coming back to me and saying, "I just saw my EXACT device only in different colours! Why didn't you TELL me???") It's clear. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 11:10:13 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Katarina References: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38FF4805.68BB@txcyber.com> Some additional arguments for Katarina Medieval German Given Names from Silesia Women's Names by Talan Gwynek http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowFem.html under Katherine Katharina 1348 Katerina 1350 Morlet, Marie-Therese. Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de L'Ancienne Gaule du VI au XII Siecle. Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique: Paris, 1972. Volume 2 page 32 under Catherina dates the name to 1113, Caterina to 1113 and Katherina to the 12th century. De Felice, Emidio. dizionario dei nomi italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori: Milan, 1986. Page 102 under Caterina lists Catarina as a variant. Withycombe page 186 under Katharine gives Katharina and Katerina as Latin forms. Katharina (the Latin) looks to be the closest that could be used with a French name even French forms favor the C over the K. Catarina could also be used with a French name. You could try an argument for the spelling Katarina based on this information. Magnus von L?beck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 15:05:49 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs Message-ID: <38FF7F3D.6789@txcyber.com> Daniel commented on the problems with using a fur on a cloth display. To make life easier with semys and furs when they are going on a shield make an cardboard outline template of the fur spot or charge. Then you can spray paint with the right color as many as you need on the shield. The same outline template can be used with fabric paint on banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so many devices. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Thu Apr 20 15:18:42 2000 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:18:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs In-Reply-To: <38FF7F3D.6789@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> > banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed > more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so > many devices. I agree with everything Magnus said, but this. Folks seem to think it's hard to register simple devices. Luckily for us, that's not true. I've got three armorial submissions going up from my Barony: "Vert, three bendlets enhanced argent," "Per saltire gules and azure," and "[Fieldless] A lion rampant vert." All three have been conflict checked and are clear, and not one of them uses furs. -Aryanhwy (who used ermine on her device because she liked it--and because it plays on my badge.) "Purpure, a bordure ermine" "[Fieldless] An ermine statant purpure." -- Sara L. Friedemann * http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann -- "He knew his life was incomplete for he had yet to suffer." Strawbs, _Hero & Heroine_ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 15:26:29 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:26:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs References: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> Message-ID: <38FF8415.2E13@txcyber.com> What came to mind with furs was using cats, dragons, and saltires in simple devices. They have been registered to death in the SCA. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rayasmith at yahoo.com Thu Apr 20 15:39:37 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Client's follow-up to submission - help? Message-ID: <20000420223937.25581.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings all. I have had a request from one of my fellow Bryn Gwladians to find out what (if anything) befell her name submission. I checked the SCA Laurel's page and the Ansteorra page and found that the name "Celestria Monelyght le Dragon" was in the ILoI July '99 issue (item #7, I believe?), accepted at Kingdom September '99, and in the Ansteorran Gazette October '99. The kingdom page has it listed as in progress. Is there any way to find out if this has been accepted (or rejected) sometime this year at Laurel (the most recent back issue of the thing at Laurel was December '99), or is this the best I can do at this time? Andre de Chartres, Bryn Gwlad ===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Thu Apr 20 15:55:35 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:55:35 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Client's follow-up to submission - help? In-Reply-To: <20000420223937.25581.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000420175535.00f132d4@es01-aus.bmc.com> >Is there any way to find out if this has been accepted >(or rejected) sometime this year at Laurel (the most >recent back issue of the thing at Laurel was December >'99), or is this the best I can do at this time? In the January 2000 LoAR, Under Acceptances (for Ansteorra) is listed: Celestria Monelyght le Dragon. Name. So her name passed. I don't know when the LoARs will be up on the Laurel page. I have Jan & Feb in .rtf and WordPerfect formats and can forward them to you. Just let me know which format you prefer. The March and April LoARs are not out yet. (And I don't think I've received the Feb LoAR in hardcopy yet - just in electronic form.) Mari, Bordure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Thu Apr 20 21:11:08 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:11:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs References: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> Message-ID: <38FFD4DB.6211B5C6@texas.net> Sara L Friedemann wrote: > > banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed > > more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so > > many devices. > > I agree with everything Magnus said, but this. I must agree. This is right up there with the people who say that all the possible combinations of notes have been used up, so there will be no more new simple melodies. It ain't so. --Alisandre "still humming" Oliphant ...someone else who's heard of the Strawbs? wow ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Fri Apr 21 11:36:06 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:36:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette Message-ID: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Okay, they're in the mail. I had them ready for labeling and mailing a week ago, but was beset by migraine. Seems that holders of this office have to be migraneurs--ah, which reminds me, guys, I'm only *acting* Obelisk--get those cards and letters in the mail--and we will consider those not afflicted by the headache menace. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Sat Apr 22 13:05:07 2000 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:05:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette In-Reply-To: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> References: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Message-ID: >Seems that holders of this office >have to be migraneurs--... >AElfwyn I don't recall listing that as a requirement... ;-) Glad to hear you're better though. Etienne ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Sat Apr 22 17:38:43 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:38:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette References: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Message-ID: <39024612.F221B4C2@flash.net> "Darin K. Herndon" wrote: > > >Seems that holders of this office > >have to be migraneurs--... > >AElfwyn > > I don't recall listing that as a requirement... ;-) > Glad to hear you're better though. > > Etienne I get migraines, but I refuse to apply for Obelisk. I'm taking some time off. :-) --Perronnelle -- A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 24 06:59:57 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:59:57 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette Message-ID: In a message dated 4/22/2000 7:41:23 PM Central Daylight Time, charlene at flash.net writes: > > >Seems that holders of this office > > >have to be migraneurs--... > > >AElfwyn I didn't get migraines while I was Obelisk, although the Gazette was sometimes a headache all unto itself. Migraines must be one of the many things Etienne added. Kathri, ex-Obelisk, almost ex-Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cbackus at enid.com Mon Apr 24 13:48:36 2000 From: cbackus at enid.com (Chris Backus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:48:36 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: Message-ID: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Mon Apr 24 12:00:01 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:00:01 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Message-ID: <390499B1.98D10256@earthlink.net> which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? Darius Chris Backus wrote: > > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cbackus at enid.com Mon Apr 24 14:14:34 2000 From: cbackus at enid.com (Chris Backus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:14:34 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> <390499B1.98D10256@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001501bfae32$18553b60$3e4721d0@cbackus> Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. Hawkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Darius and Monica To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? > Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Mon Apr 24 12:19:25 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:19:25 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Message-ID: <39049E3C.6DCD3183@texas.net> Pretty clearly nobody, especially the Achievements links. --Alisandre Chris Backus wrote: > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 12:21:57 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:21:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C331@es05-hou.bmc.com> At the moment, that would be me. The heraldic web page job is open for applications but in the mean time..... --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 3:49 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 12:23:23 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:23:23 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C332@es05-hou.bmc.com> You would of course ask about those specifically... well.... those have been a problem.. It would probably be better to just ask your question.... --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 4:15 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. Hawkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Darius and Monica To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? > Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Mon Apr 24 15:39:10 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene@mpan.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:39:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - KWHS - 60days Message-ID: It is now **60days** and counting till Knowne World Heraldic (and Scribal) Symposium, set in Houston, TX on June 23-25th, this summer, at Rice University campus. Please, get those pre-registrations in the mail, in order to reserve dorm space! One or two teachers are still needed for each of the 5 tracks (Armory, Onomastics, Administration, Calligraphy and Illumination). Please contact the autocrat or fill out the teacher registration on website. The Proceedings book deadline has been extended to May 27th, but no later. Only two articles have been received to date. If you intend to submit articles or artwork, please contact the editor to reserve space. Feel free to forward this missive as needed. For questions, please e-mail me directly. Check out the website for weekly updated teacher list, at: See you this summer! Mst. Hillary Greenslade, Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 19:41:21 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage In-Reply-To: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C332@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> I've finished putting the backlog of 1999 and 2000 LoIs into HTML and have forwarded them to Francois. They should be up on the server soon. I have them in Word97 format and can email them if anyone needs them sooner than that. Next I'll HTML the LoCs and RtCs. FYI, I was told by the Virtual Scribe in September not to give him any more HTML documents until after the new server was in place. That's why these documents haven't been kept up to date over the last few months. That should now be resolved. Mari At 02:23 PM 4/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >You would of course ask about those specifically... well.... those have >been a problem.. > >It would probably be better to just ask your question.... > >--Francois > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] >Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 4:15 PM >Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > > >Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. > >Hawkins ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Mon Apr 24 21:56:27 2000 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:56:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - More Ansteorran heraldry webpage In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> Message-ID: Well speaking from the "I used to be in office but have unfinished work" limbo... Check out http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/gazette/index.html I just updated the site and have several past Gazettes posted in PDF format. Please note that compressed copies for download will follow. If you choose to open a file and view online, be aware; some of those files are about 1 megabyte in size. Send comments to our Acting Obelisk (ducked that one didn't I AElfwyn ;-)). Oh, and I will make the site match the standard background and text color later. Etienne ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Tue Apr 25 14:12:30 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:12:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C33F@es05-hou.bmc.com> Greetings one and all! Applications are being taken for the officer to maintain the COH web page. Also, I have put the "new" COH Web page in place. There are still some links that are not active and it still points to the same stuff the old page does. The updates for the information will happen over the next couple of weeks. If you want to help, let me know. If you want to look at the old page it can be accessed at http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/oldpage.html --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 2:19 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Pretty clearly nobody, especially the Achievements links. --Alisandre Chris Backus wrote: > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Wed Apr 26 15:03:52 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene@mpan.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:03:52 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Reservations at KWHS Message-ID: OK Gang! I need to get some info from you all. I am not sending this e-mail out to the Knowne World, as I am only looking for an estimate. For Knowne World Heraldic Symposium, Westgate will be required to 'guarantee' a number of the dorm rooms at Rice U., in a week or so, and I have not been swamped with pre-registrations (only 7 so far). So wanted to get an idea of how many of you are *planning seriously* to attend, how many will be staying in the dorms with linens, and how many meals you will buy. Please let me know following, so I can plan accordingly. Think of this as a mini-registration (non-binding). Thanks, Hillary Greenslade (PS. if you have already sent reservation, don't need to respond.) Sample: KNOWNE WORLD HERALDIC SYMPOSIUM SCA Name/branch: Hillary Greenslade/Westgate Dorms: Fri yes Sat yes linens rental: yes Meals: Frid (dinner) yes Sat (Bkfst) no Sat (lunch) yes Sat (dinner) yes Sun(Bkfst) no Sun(lunch) yes ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Fitzmorgan at cs.com Wed Apr 26 21:21:33 2000 From: Fitzmorgan at cs.com (Fitzmorgan@cs.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:21:33 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - A bit of Ansteorran History Message-ID: <28.4d370cc.26391a4d@cs.com> Greetings from Robert Fitzmorgan Acting Herald of Northkeep I've had an interesting evening. Lord Etienne de St. Amaranth and I were transfering the files of the Heralds office and were looking through them to see what was what when we dropped through a hole into history. We found a notebook full of reports from the Ansteorran College of Heralds from Principality days through the first years of our kingdom. As I write I am looking at a report from the first meeting of the C of H of the Kingdom of Ansteorra, held at the Coronation of Oueen Willow. In this meeting they acccept the submitted arms for the "Kingdom/King of Ansteorra" as well as the arms for the Barony of Bryn Gwlad and the SHIRE of Namron. They also rejected the name of Nord aus das Strom, now known as Northkeep. This was followed by a discussion of the state of heraldry in the kingdom. At the meeting held at the second crown tourney they accept the badges for many of the awards of our Kingdom as well as arms for the Queen. In this meeting they also register arms for some who would rise to promanance in our kingdoms history. Such as: Tivar Moondragon. Sif Ironhand and Burke Kyriell MacDonald. I found an Order of Precedence from 22 February 1978 and an update to it that isn't dated but lists the following: THEGN TO ANSTEORRA Erasimierz Waspanieski 4 March 78 Clare RosMuire St. John 4 March 78 Tessa of the Gardens 4 March 78 Simon of Amber, called Mountaingate 4 March 78 Andeleon du Axegarth 4 March 78 Gwylym y Fferill-o-Caer Lleuad 4 March 78 Balthazar of Endor 5 March 78 S'Utcha ta Nuit, Neb, Meri en Heh, aka Lord Michael of the Valar Protectorate of Ragnarok 5 March 78 I've never heard of the Thegns of Ansteorra before. What was it? I've heard of a few of these people but most of these names are new to me. Who were they and what did they do to deserve this honor? Can anyone tell me anything about the "ORDER OF DUCT TAPE DERVISHES"? I'd really like to hear some stories from the early days of our kingdom. Can anyone tell me if Star Principal and the kingdom historian still have copies of these files? I've only begun to look through these files myself but there seemes to be a lot of history here. Robert Fitzmorgan Barony of Northkeep ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From nweders at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 27 06:47:00 2000 From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (N.D. Wederstrandt) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:47:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - V1 #404 - Thegns In-Reply-To: <200004270500.AAA14115@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:21:33 EDT >From: Fitzmorgan at cs.com I found an Order of Precedence from 22 February 1978 and an update to it >that isn't dated but lists the following: > >THEGN TO ANSTEORRA > >Erasimierz Waspanieski 4 March 78 >Clare RosMuire St. John 4 March 78 >Tessa of the Gardens 4 March 78 >Simon of Amber, called Mountaingate 4 March 78 >Andeleon du Axegarth 4 March 78 >Gwylym y Fferill-o-Caer Lleuad 4 March 78 >Balthazar of Endor 5 March 78 >S'Utcha ta Nuit, Neb, Meri en Heh, aka Lord Michael of the Valar >Protectorate of Ragnarok 5 March 78 > > I've never heard of the Thegns of Ansteorra before. What was it? I've >heard of a few of these people but most of these names are new to me. Who >were they and what did they do to deserve this honor? Clare here with a few notes about Thegns... The full title was Ring Thegns of Ansteorra and the award was based on the Anglo-Saxonish tradition of bestowing Armrings to people from the Crown. The insignia for the award was a ring about 4 in across that people chose to disply worked into their belt.. It was given by the Prince an dPrncess to people who had given them support. similar to the King's Gauntlet an dthe Queen's Glove. Ansteorra was given an Anglo-Saxonish type persona if that makes sense. I'm not sure which persons you'd like information on but I'm happy to provide you with anything you have questions... Order of the Duct Tape Dervishes was given mostly as a humourous award... The insignia was a wad of duct tape suspended from a cord of duct tape. It had something to do with fighting.... > I'd really like to hear some stories from the early days of our kingdom. If you ask I can give you stories... some based on heraldry. But like old people if you want something specific I can try to respond by specifics. If not you get tired old ones..... (grin) Clare RosMuire St. John who has been lurking awhile... ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Thu Apr 27 12:59:43 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene@mpan.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:59:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Prizes for KWHS Message-ID: We need prizes for the games at Knowne World Heraldic Symposium! If you have anything to contribute (think books, heraldic or scribal supplies, SCA goodies in general), then please track me down and pass these items along. I am planning to be at the following event schedule. (Sorry, this is mostly in the southern areas of kingdom..oh well). 4/29 Assembly of the Contrade Stargate 5/13 Loch Soillier Guardian Loch Soillier 5/20 Day at the Forum Raven's Fort 5/27 Steppes Warlord (Sat only) Steppes 6/3 Midsummer Fair Gates Edge 6/10 Kingdom Warlord (maybe) Bordermarch 6/17 Kings College Stonebridge Keep ** 6/24 Knowne World Heraldic (duh!) Westgate Else, pass them along to any other Stargater that will pass the prizes along to me...Kathri, Francois, Othar, Baron Michael Silverhands, etc.... Thanks, Hillary Greenslade KWHS Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 28 10:23:40 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:23:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: armory check In-Reply-To: <000901bfb0a8$611c4460$0201a8c6@eirik> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Eirik asked me for a conflict check for > Per pale dovetailed azure and or a decresent argent and a mullet of > 5 points azure. It's perfectly fine to send such requests to the Ansteorran Heralds list, or SCA Heralds. I'm sending this to Anst. Her. to liven it up. Mullets are of 5 points by default. It doesn't hurt to specify it just to be sure, but it'll get stripped before going up. The SCA standard blazon is Per pale dovetailed azure and or, a decrescent argent and a mullet azure. Search strategy: It's an uncommon field. I looked in Field division - Per pale - Azure - and or There's only one "dovetailed" with "per pale", Edward d'Orleans, and he's clear (type and number). (I searched the page in Netscape via ctrl-F, for "dove".) I happened to discuss dovetailed and other complex lines of division on SCA Heralds recently, so I had a chart. I also searched some precedents. Dovetailed gets no CD from raguly, embattled, or embattled variants like "bretessed" (or I presume "counter-embattled"). Bu no "per pale" raguly or embattled either. Thus, against any registered coat anywhere in the Ordinary, we get 1 CD for the field. Thus, anything else has to be heraldically identical. That makes searching MUCH easier. In particular, I can look either at crescents or mullets, but don't have to check both. I went to Mullet - Uncharged - 1 - Azure Any charging, change of number, or change of tincture would get us the second CD needed to clear it, so this is the only category I had to check. I then used Netscape ctrl-F to look for "cres", because I can't think of anything that looks like a crescent that wouldn't have "cres" in the spelling. Only 5 items matched, no conflicts. Come to think of it, mullets can have complicated conflicts too. Some mullets get no CD from others. From a previous chart, Mullet of 3 points: illegal of 4 points versus caltrop: no CD (identical) compass star: no CD (long rays in same places) mullet of 5 pnoints: no CD of 5 points versus estoile: CD sun: CD mullet of 6 points: no CD mullet of 7 points: no CD mullet of 8 points: CD compass star: CD et cetera. However, the Ordinary category doesn't distinguish by number of points. Even "Compass star" says simply "see Mullet". So we picked up all cases. However, just to be surely paranoid, I popped over to Crescent - 1 - Argent - Decrescent (120 items) and searched for "mull". About 20 coats with both. No prob that I saw. Looks clear all around. Style comments: cliched Typical SCA. (At least the mullet isn't within and conjoined to the decrescent -- more TSCA, but at least then there's a chance of conflict with the Turkish and Singaporian flags.) - "Dovetailed" is a post-period invention. The only reason it's registerable is because it's specifically listed in the Rules for Submission as an example of non-period items that have nevertheless been registered for long enough in the SCA that Laurel has ruled them SCA-compatible. I'd normally suggest just "embattled" (that has the virtue of not having to be conflict-checked, and at least there were rare cases in period), but the rest of the design is so TSCA that I'd rather ask the client whether they would be amenable to a complete redesign. - "Per pale " is, in some cases, a hack to avoid "appearance of marshalling". That appearance is exacerbated by - "Per pale" between two different charges, especially in two different tinctures. Cliche. - Decrescent. Crescents, "U", were common in period. Decrescents and increscents were very rare at best. Mind you, a mullet is a common period charge, whether of 5 or 6 points. Often they were "pierced", with a little hole in the center -- an artistic treatment called a "spur rowel", but not worth a CD. Crescents, as I pointed out, are great. Lots of fine period style designs could be made with them both. A field semy of mullets, a crescent. A field semy of crescents, a mullet. A crescent charged with a mullet; "three crescents each charged with a spur rowel" I can date to about 1300. "A crescent and on a chief two spur-rowels" -- another design I can date to about 1300. HOWEVER. I should make it clear that the client's design appears registerable. Furthermore, the client has to live with the final results of whatever they register -- *I* don't have to deal with it but once, to conflict-check it. The ideas in the previous paragraph are just SUGGESTIONS in case the client is amenable. If the client has their heart set on Their Design, so be it. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 07:40:45 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:40:45 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000428144046.44446.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings! I was hoping I could get some help since I am very new to the heraldry (I am still "acting" as it is). The populace of the canton of Glaslyn voted on and accepted by majority a new design for a device which they would like to replace the current one. First, the history on this decision. Glaslyn has been around since the early '80's and has died and revived many times since. At the present moment, it has a good strong core and is faring better than ever (we are even finally losing our incipient status soon). While the populace did not mind the name, they felt the current device was something to which they feel close nor did they want fly it any longer. After a few drawings were made, we had our vote and a new one was picked. I know I should contact our baronial herald for the device, but, more on a kingdom level, what must be done for us to change our device? In other words, are there any specific procedures I must follow in doing this? Any help is appreciated. Godspeed, Cyniric Cyniwarding, hyrnboda Glaslynes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Mohun1066 at aol.com Fri Apr 28 08:50:06 2000 From: Mohun1066 at aol.com (Mohun1066@aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:50:06 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - ATTN: Viking Exhibition Message-ID: <61.31469f6.263b0d2e@aol.com> There is a Viking exhibition at the Smithsonian now which will be touring the country. It will be coming to the Houston Museum of Natural History, July 13, 2001 to Oct. 11, 2001. I know it is a bit early to prepare, but thought I would pass it along. Website-http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/ Griffin ap Rhys (not a Viking but I am sure my persona would have been terrified of them). ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 28 10:21:55 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <200004281721.MAA01504@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric Cyniwarding / "Richard Culver" wrote: > The populace of the canton of Glaslyn voted on and accepted by > majority a new design for a device which they would like to replace > the current one. I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. Did they consult with experienced heralds before getting designs? Mind you, I'm not saying anything about Glaslyn in particular. I don't know anything about Glaslyn (except that it's a canton of the Steppes, and I have a vague memory of consulting about something last Warlord). It's just that SCA groups are some of the worst perpetrators of cliches and non-period-but- registerable things. A single submitter you may be able to convince to go with better style. Once a group decides that their design "sings" and "resonates", it's like trying to convince musk oxen. As a general call to all: before working on group names or arms, please consult with experienced heralds who may be able to advise on period style and registerability before the group settles on the SCA standard of wretchedness. > I know I should contact our baronial herald for the device, In the sense that he (Erc, I think?) is your boss so you have to report to him on heraldic activity, but there's no *requirement* to get him to sign off on anything. > but, more on a kingdom level, what must be done for us to change our > device? In other words, are there any specific procedures I must > follow in doing this? Kingdom isn't involved with this either, any more than any other device change. Step 0: reply to this note and give us a blazon or plain-English description of the arms. We can comment on style issues, maybe find a conflict, et cetera. Step 1: go to the Free Trumpet Press West webpage at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/ftpw/ and order paper copies of SCA Rules for Submissions, Admin. Handbook, Alt. Titles List, Glossary (item FT-43B), for a mere $6. Get a notebook binder ready for when it arrives, so you can answer rules questions wherever you take it. Step 2: While you're waiting for the order to arrive, bookmark and go to http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/regs.html , the Web page that links to the HTML versions of the RfS, AH, Alternate Titles, and CoA Glossary. Step 3: go to the Admin Handbook. Read it once all the way thru, but I didn't retain much any of the times I've done it, so I expect you won't either. That's just to give you an idea of what's in there, so when such a question arises, the back of your mind may tickle you and hint that this is the place to look. In general but with exceptions, the Admin Handbook tells you how to proceed on various things, and the RfS tells you about the registerable style of any particular item. Step 4: Go back to the Admin Handbook, and re-read with more attention II (Registerable Items) D (Tinctured Armory) 2 (Branch Arms): gotta have at least one laurel wreath IV (General Procedures for Submissions) C (Completed Paperwork) 5 (Evidence of Support) "Submissions involving the name or arms of an active branch must include evidence of support for the action on the part of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least three-quarters of the other local officers. In the case of branches with ruling nobles, such petitions must also include a statement of support from the ruling noble. ... Branch badge(s), order or award names, and other Branch names (such as names for guilds, Herald's Titles in the case of Kingdom, etc.) do not require support at the Laurel level. Kingdom may require it if they so desire, for their internal procedures." (Note: it's a really good idea to get the canton's approval for any badges or guild names -- a canton can't have awards or orders -- regardless of whether it's required or not.) As to how to demonstrate group approval: I don't think you should go the officers-only route; this is something to get everyone in on. Get a sheet of paper with lines for signatures. Put at the top something like "We, the undersigned, are members of the populace of the Canton of Glaslyn. We support the change of the canton arms to be [blazon], as emblazoned in the margin." Get someone to draw a line drawing of the proposed arms on the sheet, with enough detail that everyone knows what they're approving, but with enough room for enough signatures. Copy this master sheet a few times (just to provide enough lines for everyone), and color in the line drawings so people know the colors too. Don't get the boilerplate on each page be *too* big. Kingdom and Laurel are completely unimpressed by fancy calligraphy or large words, especially if that means there's only room for two signatures per page and hence a 15-page petition. Double-sided copying is your friend. Might as well have the seneschal or herald certify that it's indeed a majority of the populace. I can't think of a good way to word it right now, because the Admin Handbook leaves "populace" undefined and it's lunchtime. As for your barony. I think Laurel would not say that a canton has a "ruling noble" or not. The *barony* has a ruling noble. The *canton* is itself a branch just like any other branch. Corpora just says kingdoms can allow other local group types. Kingdom law ( http://www.ansteorra.org/publications/law/kingdom_law.html ) says that a canton is "under the protection of a Barony" and "Branches under the protection of a Barony or Province shall report both to the designated Kingdom level superior and to the protecting branches [sic] officers". That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. Especially, a new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more than $10,000 in their treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) Especially because I bet the barony won't particularly *care* about this. The canton herald and/or seneschal should go to the next baronial meeting (some Tuesday night at La Madeleine, right?), and report. Predicted skeleton dialog: Glaslyn: We're planning to change the Glaslyn coat of arms. This is the design we've approved by vote. Someone: Have the heralds looked it over? Glaslyn: Yes. They say it's registerable. Everyone: Sounds good. Glaslyn: Can we get Your Excellencies to sign the petition of support? [flourish the petition and a pen.] Baron and baroness: Sure. Glad to. (You *do* carry at least one pen wherever you go? I docked people one point each at the Court From Hell competition because they didn't.) The sheet may be the one with the seneschal/herald's certification of a majority. You might glitz it up with signature spaces labelled "Baron, Lord, and Protector of the Canton" and "Baroness, Lady, and Protector of the Canton"; maybe Fritz and Kitrin will be tickled by the glitz, I dunno. By the way: Laurel will not be picky about the wording; the above is a reasonable suggestion. There's a Laurel precedent from Bruce to the effect of This group submission had a sheet attached labelled only "Petition" and with a list of signatures. For all I know, it was a petition to serve ice cream at fighter practice. I'm going to assume they're honorable and give them the benefit of the doubt. However, in the future, please indicate on the petition *what* you're petitioning for. The color version is just to make sure everyone knows. I don't think Laurel has ever really looked for a certification of the results, but heck, why not cross the Ts and dot the Is beyond all question? Any other questions? Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Fri Apr 28 15:20:27 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw@aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:20:27 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <65.39ab413.263b68ab@aol.com> Are these the changes that Wolf spoke to me about at the Coronation? Donnel ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Fri Apr 28 15:26:17 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw@aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:26:17 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <13.48bed91.263b6a09@aol.com> I hope you have all this saved so the next time all you have to do is cut and past. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sat Apr 29 09:26:08 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <200004281721.MAA01504@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: By the way, I see no particular reason for anyone to save my previous message. Groups take or change names or arms so rarely. If you just remember that the Admin Handbook has rules, and remember to look for the word "support" (case-insensitive, first occurrence) or "petition" (the same), you'll find the #1 cause for failure: "Draw the populace poll larger". Or simply remember to call your regional for advice. OK, the biggest piece of advice: also remember to conflict-check and get style notes on the designs BEFORE the group votes on them. On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > "Submissions involving the name or arms of an active branch > must include evidence of support for the action on the part > of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the > case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be > demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and > officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least > three-quarters of the other local officers. ... > Might as well have the seneschal or herald certify that it's indeed > a majority of the populace. I can't think of a good way to word it > right now, because the Admin Handbook leaves "populace" undefined > and it's lunchtime. I've chewed my lunch and my words. It occurs to me that you ought to go both ways (suppress the peanut gallery). You can certainly tell when you have the seneschal + 3/4 of the other officers. Nevertheless, I'd go for the populace too, for group solidarity reasons: bring the petition to fighter practice, the canton meeting, wherever the group meets, to make a good-faith effort to count and invite everyone. Then the seneschal or herald can certify that the officer requirement is met, and also that a majority of the populace supports it too. "But, Daniel, aren't you being anal retentive?" - What, like that's new? - Changing the group arms and name are not done lightly. - Getting more people involved in this case makes the group work better. - Taking pains now means the rest of the process flows smoothly. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 08:53:50 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:53:50 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429155350.82188.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. Are you always so optimistic? Did they consult with >experienced heralds before getting designs? Our seneschal, Centurion Airaklee Wolf, said he ran it by some herald however I currently do not recall the name. The rough loine drawing is on our site at www.glaslyn.org. Mind you, I'm not saying >anything about Glaslyn in particular. I don't know anything about >Glaslyn (except that it's a canton of the Steppes, and I have a vague >memory of consulting about something last Warlord). It's just that >SCA groups are some of the worst perpetrators of cliches and >non-period-but- registerable things. A single submitter you may be >able to convince to go with better style. Once a group decides that >their design "sings" and "resonates", it's like trying to convince >musk oxen. Well I do not know about this. I do know it is the opinion of the majority of the canton (three times the votes of the second closest design) and they feel it represents them. If it does not work, there was really no harm in trying. Glaslyn is a good group and is not nearly as full of itself as some might be. > >Step 0: reply to this note and give us a blazon or plain-English >description of the arms. We can comment on style issues, maybe find a >conflict, et cetera. Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. >As to how to demonstrate group approval: I don't think you should go >the officers-only route; this is something to get everyone in on. Get >a sheet of paper with lines for signatures. Put at the top something >like "We, the undersigned, are members of the populace of the Canton >of Glaslyn. We support the change of the canton arms to be [blazon], >as emblazoned in the margin." This was how I would have planned it anyway. It was the poulace who voted on it. The officers support it too (even if it beat mine). Get someone to draw a line drawing of >the proposed arms on the sheet, with enough detail that everyone knows >what they're approving, but with enough room for enough signatures. >Copy this master sheet a few times (just to provide enough lines for >everyone), and color in the line drawings so people know the colors >too. Don't get the boilerplate on each page be *too* big. >Kingdom and Laurel are completely unimpressed by fancy calligraphy or >large words, especially if that means there's only room for two >signatures per page and hence a 15-page petition. Double-sided >copying is your friend. Okay, we happen to be associated with a very talented artist. We can do. > >That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. Especially, a >new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more than $10,000 in their >treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) Well, that is one of the many labels given Glaslyn over the years, but we feel rational enough. We had no intention of pissing off the barony. If I remember correctly, we had mentioned this to their Excellencies previously. Our two groups had not always felt so strongly about one another in the past, but we are working on it now. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 08:57:03 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:57:03 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429155705.59499.qmail@hotmail.com> >Are these the changes that Wolf spoke to me about at the Coronation? > >Donnel Quite possibly. You must be the name I cannot remember. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 09:39:30 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:39:30 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429163930.87285.qmail@hotmail.com> > Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: > > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a >fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All >gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. Think maybe "counterCHANGED" was what I was thinking. Regardless, we essentially want yellow on the viewers left, red on the viewers right, and the contrasting color for the charges according to on what side they are. I also forgot the phoenix is maintaing and within the wreath, as if it encircles it. I hope I was able to convey the general idea. Again checkout www.glaslyn.org/device.html . Thanks for the help, Cyniric Cyniwarding (who really prefers name research) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 01:15:22 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:15:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000429155350.82188.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. > > Are you always so optimistic? Of course. There's an attitude on alt.sysadmin.recovery that all software sucks (just some sucks worse than others), all hardware sucks, all (l)users suck, work sucks, life sucks, everything sucks. Get to be an old used herald and a similar attitude can seep in. It's not to the point of needing bourbon to get thru an ILoI, though. Coca-cola, though, that's a necessity. > Okay, we happen to be associated with a very talented artist. We > can do. Do they have experience with heraldic art in particular? Heraldic art has its own conventions and stylizations. For example, naturalistic lions and landscapes are great in tapestries and paintings (hep me, hep me, I been Branwynized!), but aren't good in heraldry. > >That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. > >Especially, a new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more > >than $10,000 in their treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) > > Well, that is one of the many labels given Glaslyn over the years, > but we feel rational enough. Ack! but that was unskillfully written! What I *meant*: If you ever *did do* something that pissed off the Steppes, my reaction *would then be* "Are you guys nuts?". > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel > wreath, a fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief > three rings. All gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. As you mentioned in another note, I looked at http://www.glaslyn.org/device.html which is an outline drawing. If I understand you correctly: the tinctures are divided down the middle; the viewer's left half of the design ("dexter") is gold, with all the things on it red, and the viewer's right half has a red background and everything on it gold? If so, I'd blazon the drawing Per pale gules and Or, a bird displayed in annulo between two sprigs of laurel, a point pointed of flame [proper?], in chief three annulets, all counterchanged. Hrm. Hrm. The sketch can be improved, but I see several possible killer problems. Bruce Draconarius of Mistholm and Akagawa Yoshio, _A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry / as Used in the SCA_, 2nd ed. -- the "Pic Dic" for short -- is available in your area. You can get a copy from Free Trumpet Press West, and I strongly advise you or your group to get it; it's extremely helpful for the SCA herald. Oakenwald (the pursuivant of the Steppes), Da'ud, Adelicia or Tadhg, other Steppers, Elfseers, et cetera, should all have copies you can look at. When looking at arms in period, the charges were sometimes small and were stylized. How did you tell what kind of bird it was? Answer: it had standard attributes. For example, you could tell that such-and-so was a hawk because it was "close" (wings held against its body, facing to dexter), and because it usually had a hawk's hood, jesses, and/or bells on it. If it was displayed, it was an eagle, even though the body was very similar to the hawk's. If it was close, head facing the viewer ("guardant"), and had a big head and eyes, it was an owl. If it was skinny, "close", and held a stone in one long leg, it was a crane. If it was close but had hairy feathers, it was a crow. Und so weider. The legend of the phoenix has the phoenix burning itself and being renewed from the ashes. (Christians adopted the symbol for that reason.) The Pic Dic depiction (item 563) has the tail, the lowermost body, and about to start on the wings in flames. All the phoenices I've seen had had part of the bird burning. I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why I blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". It looks like "a point pointed of flame". A "point pointed" (item 574) is when the bottom part of the shield is covered by a sort of diamond-shaped area. The flames here are as a straight-sided point pointed. (Furthermore, there are little drops of flame in the larger flame, which makes me wonder if "flame proper" was intended. This wouldn't be a correct depiction, mind you: flames proper are alternating tongues of red and gold flames.) Killer problem: Precedents of Da'ud (second tenure, second year), under Flames: The sinister half of the tree is not really "flaming", but is rather "of flames". We have not allowed charges of flame for quite some time. Additionally most of the commenters noted that counterchanging a charge, half of which is proper, does not appear to have any period or modern exemplars. .... (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR July 1994, p. 11) Another possible killer: charges that blur the distinction between two distinct types of charge are returned. For example, a horse is a horse, of course, of course. A unicorn has a goat-ish body with a lion's tail and a horn. A "unicornate horse" has a horse's body with a horn. It's returned for blurring the distinction between two things that get a difference. I would argue that a bird there and flame over there blurs the distinction between a phoenix and other birds, and is cause for return. Another possible killer: with half-Or half-gules everything swappiedoodle, it's gonna look visually complex. There is a rule, VIII.3, Armorial Identifiability - Elements must be used in a design so as to preserve their individual identifiability. Identifiable elements may be rendered unidentifiable by significant reduction in size, marginal contrast, excessive counterchanging, ... I've just printed it and colored it. I think it's still identifiable, because it's a simple line of division with a bilaterally-symmetric design. However, I can see others arguing that it's too much. There are other artistic problems, but they can be fixed by just redrawing. The bird outline mostly looks like a modern Japanese crane. The Pic Dic and Parker (N.B.: I do NOT recommend looking up the Seymour badge emblazonin Parker. That is one truly lousy-looking phoenix -- Victorian, maybe?) agree that the phoenix resembles an eagle. The Pic Dic says that it has a crest. The bird on the Glaslyn page doesn't have a raptor beak, a heraldic eagle's ruffled feathers or distinct large feathers. Another precedent: The laurel wreath needs a redraw, to look more like a laurel wreath, which should be circular in shape. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR December 1998, p. 17) The depiction has, not a wreath, but "two sprigs of laurel", and would be returned for lacking a laurel wreath. I think the leaves should be larger and ovoid. The Texas state seal has one of its sprigs being of laurel; that can be a model for the leaves. The invaluable Pic Dic has a picture too. So, how to fix it? First, I'd make it a real phoenix enflamed. (Or an eagle and leave off the flame, but given the story we heard, I suspect Glaslyn wants the "rebirth" notion.) It'd be a bird with flame around the bottom. The laurel wreath has to grow anyway; it'd have to expand out a bit more to accomodate the pheonix. I'd also ask the group whether the "per pale counterchanged" was significant to them, or whether it was just done to avoid conflict or something -- would they consider Or field-gules charges or gules field-Or charges to be just as good? Has the group considered replacing the three annulets with three laurel wreaths (getting rid of the large one)? "A charge within a wreath" is an SCA cliche hardly ever done in period, tho it's understandable why, given the verdammt required laurel wreath. Doing three wreaths instead of three annulets allows the phoenix to expand more. I don't think that makes it harder to draw: true, there are more wreaths, but each is smaller, so you can do a few leaves on each; further, you may be able to stencil. (In conflict-checking terms, it also makes the design "simple" according to X.2, which makes conflict-checking a bit easier and decreases the chance of conflict.) I wonder whether Glaslyn would like a few heralds from Elfsea and the Steppes to come up and consult with a populace meeting? Some questions ought to be answered first, so the "road trippers" can come prepared with suggestions that are likely to be amenable to the group. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Sat Apr 29 13:22:05 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw@aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:22:05 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/00 11:41:03 AM Central Daylight Time, rbculver at hotmail.com writes: << Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: > > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a >fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All >gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. Think maybe "counterCHANGED" was what I was thinking. Regardless, we essentially want yellow on the viewers left, red on the viewers right, and the contrasting color for the charges according to on what side they are. I also forgot the phoenix is maintaing and within the wreath, as if it encircles it. I hope I was able to convey the general idea. Again checkout www.glaslyn.org/device.html . Thanks for the help, Cyniric Cyniwarding (who really prefers name research) OK I have looked at it. The flames at the bottom need to be bigger instead of the small little tongues of fire. That is from a banner makers point of view. Try appliqueing them. Looks good to me. Donnel PS I am fwding this on to Aarron. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:55:01 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:55:01 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> >Do they have experience with heraldic art in particular? Heraldic art >has its own conventions and stylizations. For example, naturalistic >lions and landscapes are great in tapestries and paintings (hep me, >hep me, I been Branwynized!), but aren't good in heraldry. I believe she does. She drew her sister-in-laws device and I think one or two others without much complaint. >If I understand you correctly: the tinctures are divided down the >middle; the viewer's left half of the design ("dexter") is gold, with >all the things on it red, and the viewer's right half has a red >background and everything on it gold? If so, I'd blazon the drawing > Per pale gules and Or, a bird displayed in annulo between two > sprigs of laurel, a point pointed of flame [proper?], in chief > three annulets, all counterchanged. That sound like it. >Bruce Draconarius of Mistholm and Akagawa Yoshio, _A Pictorial >Dictionary of Heraldry / as Used in the SCA_, 2nd ed. -- the "Pic Dic" >for short -- is available in your area. I will have to confer with other heralds around here. I am not in the position right now to order much of sqwat. >The legend of the phoenix has the phoenix burning itself and being >renewed from the ashes. (Christians adopted the symbol for that >reason.) The Pic Dic depiction (item 563) has the tail, the lowermost >body, and about to start on the wings in flames. All the phoenices >I've seen had had part of the bird burning. >I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was >down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why I >blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". To make the bird burning, would we have to remove the flame in the base? >It looks like "a point pointed of flame". A "point pointed" (item >574) is when the bottom part of the shield is covered by a sort of >diamond-shaped area. The flames here are as a straight-sided point >pointed. (Furthermore, there are little drops of flame in the larger >flame, which makes me wonder if "flame proper" was intended. This >wouldn't be a correct depiction, mind you: flames proper are >alternating tongues of red and gold flames.) We wanted to flame gules, not proper. >Killer problem: Precedents of Da'ud (second tenure, second year), >under Flames: > The sinister half of the tree is not really "flaming", but is > rather "of flames". We have not allowed charges of flame for > quite some time. Additionally most of the commenters noted that > counterchanging a charge, half of which is proper, does not appear > to have any period or modern exemplars. .... (Da'ud ibn Auda, > LoAR July 1994, p. 11) See above about proper vs. gules. >Another possible killer: charges that blur the distinction between two >distinct types of charge are returned. For example, a horse is a >horse, of course, of course. A unicorn has a goat-ish body with a >lion's tail and a horn. A "unicornate horse" has a horse's body with >a horn. It's returned for blurring the distinction between two things >that get a difference. I would argue that a bird there and flame over >there blurs the distinction between a phoenix and other birds, and is >cause for return. Can the phoenix be aflame and still be above the fire? >Another possible killer: with half-Or half-gules everything >swappiedoodle, it's gonna look visually complex. There is a rule, >VIII.3, I am already getting sick of the rules. :Þ Half the charges I want for my personal device are banned. :( >There are other artistic problems, but they can be fixed by just >redrawing. The bird outline mostly looks like a modern Japanese >crane. That would be because the student who drew it happens to be a Japanese persona. He just drew what he was familar with. It was intend to be just a rough sketch anyway. >Another precedent: > The laurel wreath needs a redraw, to look more like a laurel > wreath, which should be circular in shape. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR > December 1998, p. 17) >The depiction has, not a wreath, but "two sprigs of laurel", and would >be returned for lacking a laurel wreath. I think the leaves should be >larger and ovoid. The Texas state seal has one of its sprigs being of >laurel; that can be a model for the leaves. The invaluable Pic Dic >has a picture too. I think we would be willing to redraw that. I had it pictured in my mind as encircling the bird anyway. > >So, how to fix it? First, I'd make it a real phoenix enflamed. (Or >an eagle and leave off the flame, but given the story we heard, I >suspect Glaslyn wants the "rebirth" notion.) It'd be a bird with >flame around the bottom. The laurel wreath has to grow anyway; it'd >have to expand out a bit more to accomodate the pheonix. Okay. I will run it by the folk and ee what they say. >I'd also ask the group whether the "per pale counterchanged" was >significant to them, or whether it was just done to avoid conflict or >something -- would they consider Or field-gules charges or >gules field-Or charges to be just as good? Our "device contest", as it were, was essentially coloring in the black and white on the website. There were Or field-gules charge and vice verse option colored but the per pale won by landslide. I would like to keep it if possible. >Has the group considered replacing the three annulets with three >laurel wreaths (getting rid of the large one)? Originally the rings had a meaning. It however may have been lost since the original idea sprouted. I will certainly ask about it. >I wonder whether Glaslyn would like a few heralds from Elfsea and the >Steppes to come up and consult with a populace meeting? Some >questions ought to be answered first, so the "road trippers" can come >prepared with suggestions that are likely to be amenable to the >group. That would probably be a great idea. I will pass it on to Wolf and see when we can get it in. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:57:26 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:57:26 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430015726.93492.qmail@hotmail.com> > OK I have looked at it. The flames at the bottom need to be bigger >instead >of the small little tongues of fire. That is from a banner makers point of >view. Try appliqueing them. Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be there on the finished product. >Looks good to me. > >Donnel > >PS I am fwding this on to Aarron. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Sat Apr 29 22:31:58 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:31:58 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question Message-ID: <002601bfb265$751c6760$0200000a@kjohnson> Hello, Does someone have a quick source for William that doesn't need documentation. Don't you wish all questions were this easy :) Thanks Kendall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/heralds-ansteorra.org/attachments/20000429/fcf0f446/attachment.html From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 09:37:12 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was > >down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why > >I blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". > > To make the bird burning, would we have to remove the flame in the > base? ... > Can the phoenix be aflame and still be above the fire? Your group wants a phoenix AND a separate flame? I assumed the flame was supposed to be part *of* the phoenix. Um, not to be critical, but isn't that sort of redundant? You can have "a flame" as a charge. It can't be done like it was drawn on the Web site. It has to be a flame as a charge. It doesn't have to be smooth like a candle flame, and actually probably shouldn't; it can be done with lots of tongue of flame, like a campfire without logs. But aside from redundancy, the design would get crowded with a bird AND a laurel wreath AND a flame AND three rings. That forces the bird to be pretty tiny. Small enough and all the charges might get ruled co-primary and the whole thing bounced for "slot machine" (too many different types of charges in the same group). > I am already getting sick of the rules. :Þ Half the charges I want > for my personal device are banned. :( Please feel free to send us a message (a new one with a different subject, not just a reply to this one, to avoid confusion) with a request for help. The rules are there for various purposes: - to cause SCA ehraldic practice to approach period practice - to have a rule set that's easy to learn and apply - to make the populace happy Unfortunately, those three forces tug the rules in different ways. In my experience, people hitting the rules repeatedly are trying to do non-period ideas. > There were Or field-gules charge and vice verse option colored but > the per pale won by landslide. I would like to keep it if possible. I still have my doubts ... > That would probably be a great idea. I will pass it on to Wolf and > see when we can get it in [roadtripping heralds] Gotta check with Steppes and Elfseaers too. There's this weird rash of weddings that's just broken out in the Steppes ... Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 09:44:43 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:44:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <002601bfb265$751c6760$0200000a@kjohnson> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > Does someone have a quick source for William that doesn't need > documentation. Um, a source for William *is* documentation. What did you think documentation was? Documentation is any justification for a practice. Further, William in what context -- language, culture, time frame? English? French? German? Scots? Irish Gaelic? Italian? Japanese? Further, William as given name, "middle name", surname, or what? Probably easiest if you tell us the full proposed name, and intended time, culture, and language, and let us vet the whole thing. > Don't you wish all questions were this easy :) "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all the text in an attachment. I had to get to the attachments page, get to the right one, display it with an external viewer, cut-and-paste your text, then back out of each of those levels. Please don't do that again. Just put the text in the body of the mail message. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Apr 29 22:23:40 2000 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy and Bill Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:23:40 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? References: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01bfb264$672adfc0$a8551f26@computer> Hokay, After consulting 7 different books about medieval concepts about the phoenix I know less than ever. For instance some sources made the phoenix purple, some rainbow or multicolored, and Herodotus said flame coloured. For this reason I would avoid the term proper. Since Queen Elizabeth used one as a badge, can anyone on the list find out what colour(s) she used? I seem to remember multicolored but the memory is very vague. Also a problem with the device, flame against a divided or and gules field gives insufficient contrast. Or at least Laurel has so held in the past. To save the per pale idea I would suggest either a purple or gold-coloured phoenix rising out of red and gold flames. Against a per pale background chosen to show the charge. (for instance against white and green) Three laurel wreaths in fess the chief in either gold or red. Or the laurel wreath in bordure counterchanged. If you want to go with the rainbow colored phoenix I would strongly suggest a single tincture for the field, in order to keep it easily recognized. I don't have a ordinary and armorial handy, which versions of the phoenix have already been used in branch arms? Mableth ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Apr 29 23:04:50 2000 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy and Bill Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:04:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? References: Message-ID: <003901bfb26a$2c4ec320$a8551f26@computer> Sorry for posting twice to the thread but I forgot to include this side comment. > > > I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want > > for my personal device are banned. :( > Cyniric, Do you mean banned as 'offensive to a significant portion of the population' or banned as in 'the stuff an early anglo-saxon would put on a shield is not registrable'? I ask for the following reason. If what your persona would put on his or her shield would not be heraldry then you can put it on your shield, just make sure that it can't be mistaken for heraldry. In your case I would start by making the center boss and the rim contrasting with the brown board (leather or wood). Add a couple of rivets/bolt heads and/or reinforcing bars. Then add the metal beast shapes or geometrics. If possible, try to make the rest of your armor similarly period. Don't paint the board. Red or white would be period but might make it look too much like a coat of arms. Most people will love you for doing this. A few will be outraged, especially if you catch them off guard. BE CAREFUL TO TELL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE FIRST. Consult with heralds experienced in device registration to avoid something that looks like a shield. Tell the fighters that you are recreating a period shield, they'll love it. Contact your local authenticity police, bribe them with documentation. If you do this correctly you will have most of the College of Arms protecting you against anyone else who might dispute your right to carry the shield, and virtually everyone else enthusiastically protecting you against any herald who might object to your shield. You will still get the occasional objection, but a little tact, and good documentation will easily carry you through. There are a few symbols used in Anglo-Saxon art that are banned because of later connections with the Nazis. To my knowledge none of them were used on shields. Most of the people who do the 'non-heraldic' shield bit eventually end up with a coat of arms, but only for use on banners, etc. I have a good reference on the Anglo-Saxon warrior, recently printed in England. If you would like me to xerox the pages on shields please email me at awmorris at flash.net with your mailing address. Mableth ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Sat Apr 29 23:05:35 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw@aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:05:35 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <55.53d3ae3.263d272f@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/00 8:58:37 PM Central Daylight Time, rbculver at hotmail.com writes: << Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be there on the finished product. >> Are you a student or a teacher? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 10:45:46 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:45:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: Kendall Johnson wrote to me personally, but I suspect meant it for the list: > Can someone tell me on what page William is listed in Withycombe's > Dictionary of christian names. Mr. Pedantic Person notes that it's _The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names_. It's a miracle nobody has soundly *THWAPPED* Mr. Pedantic Person for a while. William is on pp. 293-4 (3rd ed.). Dated spellings: Willelm, c. 1067 Willelmus, 1086, 1199-1220 Wilecoc, 1273 Wylymot, 1379 Gillet, Gillot(in), Gilliame, Guillot, 1306 Wyll, c. 1515 Gilow, Gylaw, 1379 Gilmyn, 1379 Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! Reaney and Wilson, _A Dictionary of English Surnames_, 3rd ed, p. 493, have Robertus filius Willelmi, 1086 Richard William, 1279 John Wylyam, 1296 Rauf le fuiz William, 1299 Henry Fitz William, 1300 Ralph Willem, Willeam, 1304 ... Thomas William, 1327 R&W is fine as a source for given names in given-name positions. For example, those citations above are great for the spellings Richard, John, Henry, Ralph, and Thomas. An apparent given name in a surname position is dicier. For example, the first example is probably in the genitive case or something. However, where the surname is derived from a given name, and the name appears not to have been "mutated" in some way, I think you're on pretty reasonable grounds. (By "mutation", I refer to changes like "Williamson" (or "Williams", which means the same thing.) So (assuming the client wants "William" in that exact spelling), I'd write it as William: Withycombe (3rd ed., pp. 293-4) says it was introduced to England by the Normans and has been popular to the present time. Reaney and Wilson (3rd ed., p. 493, under Williams) date this spelling as a given name from 1279. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 11:12:47 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:12:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <002a01bfb264$672adfc0$a8551f26@computer> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Amy and Bill Morris wrote about phoenices proper. I'm so sorry to put you to all that work! I dropped a "[proper?]" in the middle of my proposed blazon to refer to the *flames*, and forgot that it would apply to previous charges! No, I don't expect phoenices to have a proper tincture. Offhand, I can't think of *any* monster with a defined "proper". I recall hearing that the English College of Arms once had a client request a griffin proper; someone suggested that the proper tincture for a mythical beast was "invisible", but that the client ought to be charged the full fee by the herald painter for "painting" it. The phoenix simply has to be blazoned as being of some specific tincture or tinctures. It has also been clarified that the flame was not supposed to be proper, but rather counterchanged as well. > To save the per pale idea Not sure what needs saving, unless it be due to the "excessive counterchanging" possibility. All other colors show up well against gules and metal, so if the group wanted azure or sable charges, it would show up pretty well. (I'm not sure you could do consistent metal or color for all three annulets: one of the annulets would therefore end up metal-on-metal or color-on-color.) I would not recommend purpure or vert (purple or green). They were very much rarer than the other colors (purpure a little more common in Iberia), and usually only done in simple designs. > Or the laurel wreath in bordure Cause for return. Wreathes are circular. (I meant it!) In past times, there has been registered what we'd call "a wreath in bordure", or "two sprigs of laurel, tips crossed in saltire", or other mutations. We've gotten stricter since. The laurel wreath is emblazoned as lying as on a bordure', which has been disallowed for some time now. Please let them know that laurel wreaths are nearly circular in shape, and cannot follow the line of a bordure or orle. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR December 1998, p. 14) > I don't have a ordinary and armorial handy, which versions of the > phoenix have already been used in branch arms? What do you mean, "which version"? If you mean "what tinctures": argent argent, flames proper azure azure, flames argent and sable azure, flames azure and or azure, flames gules azure, flames proper azure, flames vert and or gules gules, flames proper or or, flames argent or, flames proper per bend sinister argent and sable per bend sinister or and sable per fess or and gules per fess sable and or per pale or and gules (alone on the field) purpure, flames sable (sort of: Bryan de Albengi) sable, flames gules I'm only up to names starting with D and I'm getting bored. The only new ones added in the Cs were pretty much some weird flaming for azure ones. Or phoenices are by far the most popular. The only "phoenix proper" ever registered was in 1979, but was reblazoned in 1982 to "a phoenix of flames ... proper". The latter motif has been registered a few times since. It is no longer registerable; see the precedent I quoted in an earlier message forbidding charges of flame. OK, Yrjö Kirjawiisas reg. in 1980 an "Egyptian phoenix proper", but it is listed as "[Ardea purpurea] ...BIRD:1:bird passant to sinister:eagle:proper:spna" and not monster, so that appears to be the common name for a real bird. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From culn97 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 30 01:09:11 2000 From: culn97 at yahoo.com (Rod Jackson) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: <20000430080911.28954.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Why THWAPP? I've been lurking and learning, though I do think you've been a little harsh. Maybe the Lynchburg Lemonade makes me more mellow. OK, you are hereby docked one chocolate ration. Cheers! Colin (oh, I like the fewer key strokes!) --- tmcd at jump.net wrote: > Kendall Johnson wrote to me > personally, but I suspect > meant it for the list: > (snippage) It's a miracle nobody has soundly *THWAPPED* Mr. Pedantic Person for a while. > (more snippage) ===== Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:06:40 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:06:40 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430210640.53750.qmail@hotmail.com> >Do you mean banned as 'offensive to a significant portion of the >population' >or banned as in 'the stuff an early anglo-saxon would put on a shield is >not >registrable'? Perhaps both, but more so the former. See below. I ask for the following reason. If what your persona would >put on his or her shield would not be heraldry then you can put it on your >shield, just make sure that it can't be mistaken for heraldry. In your >case >I would start by making the center boss and the rim contrasting with the >brown board (leather or wood). Add a couple of rivets/bolt heads and/or >reinforcing bars. Then add the metal beast shapes or geometrics. If >possible, try to make the rest of your armor similarly period. Don't paint >the board. Red or white would be period but might make it look too much >like a coat of arms. I have a center boss dress round (I cannot fight with a center grip due to a disqbility. That whole dropping your shield in battle thing does not sit well with me). I was planning on getting some metal and making beast for that. However we really do not have enough evidence to say what they did or did not put on their shields. Quite frankly as a gress shield I will put what I think I would as a Migration Age Angle. If I could get a hold of a Remo Fiberskyn 3 concert bass drum head, that would look good-just like rawhide but made of mylar (no weather problems). >Most people will love you for doing this. A few will be outraged, >especially if you catch them off guard. BE CAREFUL TO TELL AS MANY PEOPLE >AS POSSIBLE FIRST. Consult with heralds experienced in device >registration >to avoid something that looks like a shield. Tell the fighters that you >are >recreating a period shield, they'll love it. Contact your local >authenticity police, For early Angle stuff I _am_ the authenticity police. Finances are the only thing from doiung it as well as I wish. For fun I study Anglian dialects and Early English and its connections with the Danish penisula. >There are a few symbols used in Anglo-Saxon art that are banned because of >later connections with the Nazis. To my knowledge none of them were used >on >shields. This is exactly the part which chaps me. We are suppose to be an educational organization yet we hide research. I really hate being a slave to the actions of the 12 years of the Arrogant Austrian. The fylfot, to use the Middle English term, was used on weapons, burial urns, and other such things. I think at some point it ended up on a few shields, particularly in the heathen era which is in line with my persona. I would like to use the Eolhsecg/*elhaz-algiz rune as well but I am sure its modern association with the white supremist group the National Alliance would scrap that too. I know I cannot change anything but it is a pet peeve. I assure you other symbols have bad track records yet still are kept around. I makes it really hard to enjoy being period when you have to keep some thing in the shadows. It kind of takes away the magic of Dream for me on a personal level. However I can see why the SCA does not want that kind of press. Luckily my persona is very well developed from my research. Once I get a hold a book called "First Steps in Old English", I hope for high persona events I can be _really_ convincing. >I have a good reference on the Anglo-Saxon warrior, recently printed in >England. If you would like me to xerox the pages on shields please email >me >at awmorris at flash.net with your mailing address. Is that the one put out by Anglo-Saxon books? Cyniric Cyniwarding, hyrnboda Glaslynes 5th Century Angle not too fond of the Saxons :) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:08:05 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:08:05 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430210805.52495.qmail@hotmail.com> ><< Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be > there on the finished product. > >> >Are you a student or a teacher? I am a student but of linguistics, not art. I just live in the artist dorm at UNT for a few years. :) Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:10:27 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:10:27 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: <20000430211027.746.qmail@hotmail.com> >William is on pp. 293-4 (3rd ed.). Dated spellings: > Willelm, c. 1067 > Willelmus, 1086, 1199-1220 > Wilecoc, 1273 > Wylymot, 1379 > Gillet, Gillot(in), Gilliame, Guillot, 1306 > Wyll, c. 1515 > Gilow, Gylaw, 1379 > Gilmyn, 1379 >Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! I wonder if it would appear that way on the Bayeaux Tapestry? For some reason I think it does, or ay least the Latinization of it. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 14:51:40 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:51:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000430211027.746.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! > > I wonder if it would appear that way on the Bayeaux Tapestry? Possibly, but for SCA registration purposes, you don't need it, given the Reaney & Wilson dates. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 15:03:43 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:03:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000430210640.53750.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Naziism, paganism, and Christianity, all touched on in my message. Asbestos pajamas, everyone! On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > We are suppose to be an educational organization yet we hide > research. Sorry to interrupt your rant, but I've never noticed the SCA hide research. *Application* of the research, sometimes -- no witch hangings, no pogroms, little suppression of women, ... > I really hate being a slave to the actions of the 12 years of the > Arrogant Austrian. (Took me a moment trying to think of which period Austrian you were referring to. "Some Hapsburg? A Hohenzollern? ..." Then 1945-1933==12 clicked in.) > The fylfot, to use the Middle English term, was used on weapons, > burial urns, and other such things. Well, In My Humble Opinion, too bad. I'm sure that most were not marked with fylfots; there's any number of other symbols you can use. > I assure you other symbols have bad track records yet still are kept > around. I can think of only one: the cross. However, the vast majority of people in the US have positive or neutral opinions of it. This is not the case with the fylfot, the South African three-armed thingy, the pentagram (unfortunately), et cetera. (Lest you pigeon-hole me inaccurately as a Promise Keeper or something: I'm a militant agnostic/atheistic ygay man.) (An SCA heraldic note: Northern Atlantia had a major fuss when they had several candidates for their principality arms. One candidate was reminiscent of the flag of Maryland, which is the Baltimore arms, which is quartered with a cross (bottony, if memory serves). Several people said that they were vehemently opposed, to the point of not wanting to play there if it was adopted. I asked one what she would do if she ever had to move to Maryland and see the flag on her car, her driver's licence, state buildings, et cetera. I never did get an answer.) Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 17:54:16 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:54:16 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000501005416.75222.qmail@hotmail.com> >Naziism, paganism, and Christianity, all touched on in my message. >Asbestos pajamas, everyone! Anything to make you happy. >Sorry to interrupt your rant, but I've never noticed the SCA hide >research. *Application* of the research, sometimes -- no witch >hangings, no pogroms, little suppression of women, ... You rightly worded it. Sorry for my mistype. Ah, the good ol' days! :) >Well, In My Humble Opinion, too bad. I'm sure that most were not >marked with fylfots; there's any number of other symbols you can use. I leave it at we simply do not know. There are rock glyphs which do show the solar cross (the ring with a equal armed cross in it), which is a related symbol, used in context as shields. >I can think of only one: the cross. However, the vast majority of >people in the US have positive or neutral opinions of it. This is not >the case with the fylfot, the South African three-armed thingy, the >pentagram (unfortunately), et cetera. Unfortunately you are right. (Lest you pigeon-hole me >inaccurately as a Promise Keeper or something: I'm a militant >agnostic/atheistic ygay man.) That explains a lot. ;) My condolences. I am ordained heathen clergy so I definitely have a different take on the world. At any rate, since my persona is also a wagoneer/ merchant I will probably go with a wagon wheel as my main charge....of course wheels are not period. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 20:12:50 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000501005416.75222.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > of course wheels are not period. Anglo-Saxon and no wheels ... ah, must be those famous Anglo-Saxon Aztecs, originating in those fleeing across the sea from the Vikings. Ixtlilxochitl Aethelweards sunu was probably my favorite of the Heptarchs of the Yucatan. Monks in leopardskins. Yes. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Apr 30 20:25:27 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:25:27 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question Message-ID: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net writes: > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all > the text in an attachment. This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like every other post. Daniel, are you using weird software again / still? If so, THWAPP. :-) Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Apr 30 20:55:14 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri@aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:55:14 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: ILOI 0400 corrections Message-ID: Same song, umpteenth verse. Typos. ------- Addenda to April letter, "....assume it *is* a typing error of mine. If you can, post a correction to the Ansteorran heralds list (heralds at ansteorra.org). If not, let me know any way you can. Kathri, Asterisk" --------- Item 6 Chandranath name: mistyped URL. See below for explanation from submitter. But in my defense let it be said that there is *very* little difference between " ~ " and " - " and there are lots more enyas than dashes in Chandranath's documentation! Chandra, everybody got their Gazette late. And it's not too late for commentary; the deadline for ILOI0400 isn't until May 20. Thanks for the quick notice. ------------------------------- Item 13 Kathryn. Branch is Namron. ------------------------------- Item 16 Stephan of Monmouth. Name documentation was provided; I just didn't type it. It will be posted to the list as soon as I think I can do it. (I'm just getting back to heraldry after helping with Stargate's Assembly of the Contrades and I'm not even going to try to type documentation tonight.) -------------------------------- Item 17 Suannoch. Branch is Westgate. -------------------------------- More later, no doubt. Aelfwyn, please save this email as "Corrections to ILOI0400" for the May Gazette. I'll get the rest to you as soon as I can. Kathri, still Asterisk but dropping letters fast -- may be down to the first two letters by now. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Russ Smith Subject: ILOI 0400 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:40:36 -0500 (CDT) Size: 1405 Url: /pipermail/heralds-ansteorra.org/attachments/20000430/80f8ba55/attachment.mht From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 30 22:20:06 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> from "Kathri@aol.com" at "Apr 30, 2000 11:25:27 pm" Message-ID: <200005010520.WAA13407@agora.rdrop.com> > In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net > writes: > > > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all > > the text in an attachment. > > This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like every > other post. > > Daniel, are you using weird software again / still? If so, THWAPP. :-) Dunno what Daniel's using (something on a SLIP-type connection, obviously) but I got two attachments, the entirety of the originating text in html, and 113 lines for Kendall's message, so it wasn't just Daniel. (Documentation and photocopies are two different things, BTW.) - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 22:13:24 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd@jump.net) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 Kathri at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > tmcd at jump.net writes: > > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and > > all the text in an attachment. > > This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like > every other post. It may have been an artifact of the original note being sent to the list in two versions in one note -- the old "I used the mailer defaults to send one copy in plain text, one in HTML" problem. My mail filter now swallows the rest of the message after the "Content-Type:" declaration of "text/html". The resultant mangled message (truncated internal header, no "NextPart" line following) may have confused the pine mailer (generally pretty smart and MIME-aware). I have not seen the problem before because it's the first time since installing the mail filter that I've replied from home (hence, using pine). Thank you, Kathri, for inducing me to investigate further. I will be more aware of such mangling issues, and I hope others will set their mailers to send only plain readable text to this list. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Tue Apr 4 09:19:32 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:19:32 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - To arms! To arms! And names, too. Message-ID: <22.3ffcbbf.261b7014@aol.com> OK, gang, heads up. It's spring and I'm 60ish days from stepping down from this office, so you know what that means: Spring cleaning! Clean-up, catch-up time! Yes, once again you will be the victims of my good intentions and our success in solicting submissions. Requests for conflict checks will soon rain about your heads. The good part is: we can handle this stuff quickly and get it on to Laurel or back to the submitter without passing the ILoI or collecting gobs of commentary. Believe me, there's still plenty of stuff that can't be handled with a mere conflict check. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rayasmith at yahoo.com Tue Apr 4 15:32:51 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world] Message-ID: <20000404223251.7424.qmail@web1901.mail.yahoo.com> Haven't had time to check this site out yet, but it sounds like it might potentially be helpful. Enjoy! Andre --- thomas grimes wrote: > Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:57:14 -0500 > From: thomas grimes > Subject: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from > around the world] > To: rayasmith at yahoo.com > Reply-to: tagrimes at swbell.net > > ATTACHMENT part TEXT message/rfc822 > Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:20:15 -0500 > From: William H Grimes > Subject: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around > the world > To: Thomas Grimes > Reply-to: grimy_b at swbell.net > > http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/ >

Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world

<A HREF="http://leader.linkexchange.com/1/X1006515/clickle" TARGET="_top"><IMG SRC="http://leader.linkexchange.com/1/X1006515/showle?" ALIGN=BOTTOM WIDTH=468 HEIGHT=60 BORDER=0 VSPACE=0 HSPACE=0 ISMAP></A>

Index
This Site Features

To view the free coat of arms graphics click on the first letter of the surname of interest above, ignoring any prefix such as "Mc", "O", etc
Original material copyright
© Eddie Geoghegan
1998 - 2000.
The coat of arms graphics I create are copyright © Eddie Geoghegan and are subject to legal protection worldwide. You are free to display, copy and distribute them for non-commercial purposes, including website display (a link back to this site would would be nice). You are also free to use them for non-profit business purposes (for example, letterheads, society / clan / family stationary and the like) i.e. where the graphic is used for adornment and not as a sales inducement. They may also be used for events such as family occasions and clan gatherings and reproduced on related memorabilia provided that such items are sold on a non-profit basis. Specifically prohibited is reselling of the images or their reproduction for use on items for sale for profit (including prints, tee-shirts, badges, collectibles, etc.). Neither may the graphics be offered free of charge as an inducement to attract sales of other commercial products. If in doubt as to the legality of any proposed use please contact me. Commercial use of my graphics requires my written agreement and an appropriate fee and / or royalty payment.
Although the vast majority of armorial bearings are hundreds of years old and not subject to regulation, certain coats of arms, badges, crests etc. may also be subject separate copyright restrictions. For example the copyright of national, regional, municipal and organizational arms may lie with a government, local government, organization or other body. It is your responsibility to obey all national and international laws and regulations regarding the display of such graphics.

Over 1100 FREE graphics of coats of arms from Ireland and around the world. These graphics are arranged in alphabetical section indexed on the left of this page.
FREE preliminary reference search for coats of arms not featured on this site. More
Professional quality, full colour prints up to 11 x 16 inches, output on HP 2500C professional printer using premium quality photo paper. More
Coat of Arms graphic make up service. Bitmap graphics made to order. Suitable for screen display and even printing from your own system (though the print quality will be significantly lower than prints supplied by me). More
Full Coat of Arms search. I have over 200,000 blazons (heraldic text descriptions of coats of arms) covering most of Europe. More
Irish Family Name Histories are available for a number of prominent and not so prominent surnames. More
Beautiful Etched Glassware individually handcrafted by Doug Cowan of Northwest Creations using coat of arms templates designed by me. More
Bookstore in two sections The first covers Irish and non Irish family history, genealogy and so on. More The second relates directly to heraldry. More
A Gallery to display samples of the products I supply to order. More
Ye Olde Heraldic Shoppe where you may request searches, place orders and find out what I hope to be able to offer in the future. More
Articles relating to Proto-Heraldry in Early Christian Ireland, Heraldry in Ireland, Gaelic Irish Heraldry and Heraldic Practice, The Coats of Arms of Irish Septs, The "Meaning" of Coats of Arms, Clans and Chieftains in Ireland, Mac and O in Irish Surnames, The Distortion of Irish Surnames and Irish Personal Names. More
The customs and practice of heraldry (otherwise known as Heraldry 101). More
The Irish Language as I use it to display the Irish (Gaelic) version of surnames on coats of arms graphics. More
Testimonials, Help, Links and Awards. More
Need a search of the Irish Civil Records (births, marriages, deaths, wills, etc)? I recommend
Records Ireland based in Dublin!

Top of Page

News:

Visitors:
12 March 2000
I am back at my old location for reasons that make to to angry to mention.
1 March 2000
If you would like to vote for this site on "Paddy's 50 Fave" Irish Sites click here
23 January 2000
40 new coats of arms added to the site bringing the total to 1137
18 January, 2000, 2:40pm
I just watched, with great satisfaction, the hit counter roll over the 200,000 mark. Thank you to all the visitors, regular and occasional, who have made this site such a success. Also a special "thank you" to everyone who placed links to here on their own sites. Will we see 250,000 roll up before the end of the year?

===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Tue Apr 4 17:22:07 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:22:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Known World Heraldic Symposium - PreRegistration Form Message-ID: It's Here! It's Here! (or rather, 'It's Online!' ). The PRE-REGISTRATION FORM for the Known World Heraldic Symposium to be held in Houston, Tx, last weekend in June, is now available online. The website is : www. peazy.com/KWHS.htm Dorm space is limited, but an overflow dorm may be available... so don't do the usual SCA thing, and wait till the last minute! (Or you may not be bunking in the 'Cool' dorm!) Send your REGISTRATIONS in SOON! If unable to download the MSWord doc file, please e-mail me. We still have TEACHER slots available. Please check website for list of current classes (updated weekly). Reminder! The 'PROCEEDINGS' book has a deadline of MAY 1st, please send your publications in soon. Very few articles have been received to date. AIRLINE suggestions: The website notes a special discount package with Continental Airlines, check it out. Also, you may wish to consider American Airline or Southwest Airlines (Texas preferred discount airline), both based in Dallas, with a quick turnaround to Houston. They may provide additional flight options. And, check out ticketing via the internet! Some direct airline sites are encouraging internet booking of flights by offering VERY discounted flights, but you must book EARLY! (more than 14 days advance). Remember, THIS EVENT IS FOR YOU, so only with your participation can it be a success! If questions or suggestions, please send E-MAIL DIRECTLY TO ME, not to the lists. Westgate is looking forward to having you as our guests this summer! HE Mistress Hillary Greenslade KWHS Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Tue Apr 4 23:11:20 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:11:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - armory books Message-ID: <38EAD908.E0F6844@flash.net> I was in the used book store today and found three copies of Brooke-Little's "An Heraldic Alphabet" and one copy of Fox-Davies' "A Complete Guide to Heraldry." If anyone would like one of these, email me privately at findbook at flash.net. --Perronnelle -- A gentleman is someone who is never unintentionally rude. --Oscar Wilde ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 5 08:39:31 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:39:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <38E3E297.28B730B0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <38EB5E33.4509@txcyber.com> Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so this is the first chance to look at this. When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble but here goes anyway. >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. These look to be clear of problems. >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of >five greater and five lesser points Sable. >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. These look to be clear of problems. >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for fieldless badges. "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" Anyone else care to venture into this. Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 08:49:41 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:49:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <38E3E297.28B730B0@earthlink.net> <38EB5E33.4509@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <38EB6095.59042BE@earthlink.net> Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. for better visual go to http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) HL Darius, Tressure Herald Doug Bell wrote: > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > this is the first chance to look at this. > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > but here goes anyway. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > fieldless badges. > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 5 09:15:43 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:15:43 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please (Huntsman Badge) Message-ID: <30.357d15e.261cc0af@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/2000 10:49:22 AM Central Daylight Time, dmmerlick at earthlink.net writes: > the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. But the part it obscures is the arrow shaft. To me, that makes the pheons look like a bordure (ingrailed? indented? scalloped?) rather than arrows. Either of the other two abide by the current rules, and look better to me. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 09:16:28 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:16:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BB@es05-hou.bmc.com> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two long skinny things in saltire is over used. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. for better visual go to http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) HL Darius, Tressure Herald Doug Bell wrote: > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > this is the first chance to look at this. > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > but here goes anyway. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > fieldless badges. > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 09:25:30 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world] Message-ID: <200004051625.LAA18191@serv1.jump.net> Please don't mail an entire Web page to the list! The URL alone, http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/ suffices. I went to the site. It's a well-done armorial: you get a page of mini-emblazons (one page per initial letter of a surname), and if you click on a mini, you go to a large version. A few of them link to external Web pages with further info. The problems I see are - Almost every coat is identified only by surname. In the English, and hence Irish, system, a coat of arms is originally borne by only one person, and his eldest son is the only one who inherits it undifferenced. Listing a coat with just a surname leads to the "bucket shop" fraud. In fact, looking further, he advertises a "full coat of arms search". He never says "I'll send you stuff about your family coat of arms", but rather things like "text list of coars of arms for the surname ... you specify". However, the uneducated reader will not know about the caveat above and will assume that "I'm a Murphy, therefore this is my coat of arms". - There is no supporting documentation: no names of known bearers, no dates, nada. Looking further, you can get reports with all the info he has ... for $6 and up. - A few have lousy art. Click under "N" and look at the O'Neill design, then go to the external page and see their better design. It has *some* initial use for starting research, but not that great a source. -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 09:31:11 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:31:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BB@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EB6A4F.C83E3FBC@earthlink.net> Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > for better visual go to > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > but here goes anyway. > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > fieldless badges. > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > ============================================================================ > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 09:42:36 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:42:36 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only possible conflict is: Richard of Mont Royal, the Short The following badge associated with this name was registered in June of 1973: (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are on the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:31 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > for better visual go to > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > but here goes anyway. > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > fieldless badges. > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > ============================================================================ > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:44:21 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:44:21 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35415@209.184.113.10> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I agree. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:44:35 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:44:35 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35073@209.184.113.10> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I agree. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:50:44 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35441@209.184.113.10> Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only possible conflict is: Richard of Mont Royal, the Short The following badge associated with this name was registered in June of 1973: (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. Ummm, doesn't that clear by 1 cd for fieldlessness and 1 cd for saltorel v. pheon? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 5 09:52:43 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:52:43 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <6e.1d88e7a.261cc95b@aol.com> I'm signing up for the Aelfwyn branch of telepathy, thanks, I prefer her idea: > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. (snip) "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 10:02:28 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:02:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EB71A4.61E1918@earthlink.net> Cool, I have added this one to the web page, Aelfwyn's suggestion will take a little longer. Heraldic Psychic Association meeting, you know when, you know where! :) Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. > > Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only > possible conflict is: > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > The following badge associated with this name was registered in > June of 1973: > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. > > And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are on > the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) > > --Francois ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 10:09:37 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:09:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.35415@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EB7350.AB8FF6BD@texas.net> Hang the hunting horn over the top point of the star, so that it would be hanging horizontally across the star. You'd lose no clarity, since those are both very distinctive shapes. The arrow or pheon, I'm less sure on; you can cross arrows behind the star or something like that. --Alisandre jodimc at texas.net wrote: > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that > has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. > > I agree. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran > star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines > of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears > to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." > > AElfwyn > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 10:16:11 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:16:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please In-Reply-To: <38EB71A4.61E1918@earthlink.net> References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000405121611.00dc158c@es01-aus.bmc.com> The only concern I had with a "hunting horn only" idea, as I told Francois on the phone, is regarding the similarity of hunting horns and the drinking horns that you see all over SCA events. We need to make sure this indicates Royal Huntsman instead of Royal Lush or some such... FYI: the reason Francois mentioned the possible conflict is that neither of us could remember what the heck a saltorel is... Does it have an outline that could conflict with a pheon, etc. Mari (otherwise, I like the hunting horn idea also.) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at healthaxis.com Wed Apr 5 10:20:54 2000 From: TRayburn at healthaxis.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:20:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34AFA@NRHCRE00> How about Fieldless, on a hunters horn Or a mullet of five/five sable surmounted by a pheon or. Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: Bordelon, Wendel [SMTP:Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:43 AM > To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. > > Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only > possible conflict is: > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > The following badge associated with this name was registered in > June of 1973: > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. > > And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are > on > the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:31 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > > Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two > mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? > > Darius > > "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has > always > > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring > of > > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the > two > > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star > in > a > > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > > > --Francois > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > > for better visual go to > > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > > but here goes anyway. > > > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of > five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > > fieldless badges. > > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > ========================================================================== > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > ========================================================================== > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 10:38:46 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.35073@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EB7A26.7C667DB3@earthlink.net> OK I have Gifs of the Blackstar and hunters horn up now, I put bith a "hunters Horn" and a "Spiral Hunters Horn" up just in case. http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html Darius jodimc at texas.net wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that > has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. > > I agree. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran > star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines > of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears > to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." > > AElfwyn > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:06:57 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051906.OAA02003@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. Amen. Further, how many *other* danglies in Ansteorra have "a mullet of five greater and five lesser points" as the major element of the design? It's almost as boring as "Dragon's X" used in Midrealm awards, or "Griffin's X" in western areas, or "X Keep". > I dont think the ring of pheons will work > because of identifiablity. Amen. It looked like some sort of engrailed voided mullet. Further, I don't see how to blazon it. For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily the corners meeting. For the "two arrows in saltire" / "a sheaf of three arrows": that's overdone too. > Doesn't have to be fieldless. "Royal Huntsman" is an award, right? (Oughta be handled as a *job*, grumble grumble.) There are examples of positions held by a single person having fielded arms (the Marshal of the HRE with the (in)famous crossed swords, for example, or any number of bishophrics), but I think it really ought to be fieldless. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:17:45 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:17:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051917.OAA03133@serv1.jump.net> Darius suggested: > semy [of] pheons You don't mind, then, if the recipient of the award looks like an inmate in Her Majesty's prisons? I think the US has abandoned the striped prison garb (if ever we had it outside cartoons), but the UK may still use "semy of broadarrow [heads]" on theirs. I can't find anything about prison clothing. I only find http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/history/coveycrump/alpha/resource/b_content.htm , a fine Web page of Royal Navy slang, THE BROAD ARROW The Government mark formerly put on all solid material used in HM ships and dockyards to denote their Government ownership -similar to the Rogue's Yarn laid up in cordage. See ROGUE. The origin of the mark is obscure. Some say it was the seal of the Earls of Leicester who, in the days of Queen Elizabeth I, was responsible for all the Queen's stores. Others say it was the badge of Lord de l'isle, First Commissioner of the Ordnance at that time. An act of 1687 describes it as "His Majesty's Mark" (to be put on boundary houses in the Tower of London). An act of 1698 authorised penalties for persons found in possession of articles marked with this mark. There's a further problem: how does one put "semy of pheons" recognizably on a dangly that's maybe an inch in diameter? Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:22:55 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051922.OAA03827@serv1.jump.net> > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. ] Ummm, doesn't that clear by 1 cd for fieldlessness and 1 cd for ] saltorel v. pheon? 1 CD for fieldlessness. In general, two changes to a tertiary are needed to get a CD. However, X.4.j.ii says that "simple" cases can get a CD for just a substantial change of type of the tertiary. However, that requires (among other things) that the base charge be simple enough in outline to be voidable, and I don't know that an Ansteorran mullet is that simple. There's another possibility: that by "Star of David" they mean a Mogen David, a mullet of six points *voided and interlaced*, like on an Israeli flag. The problem is then: how do you fit anything "on" a Mogen David, when it doesn't have a solid interior to put anything on? I would also be somewhat surprised if there's not a "(Fieldless) On a sun sable a widget Or" already registered, but my initial check showed nothing. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:25:33 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:25:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051925.OAA04043@serv1.jump.net> Alisandre / Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Hang the hunting horn over the top point of the star Do you have any period examples of anything like that? I'd much prefer to suggest known period motifs; please don't suggest inventions without evidence. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 12:26:08 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:26:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004051906.OAA02003@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EB9350.D907832E@earthlink.net> The Royal Huntsman is the chosen title for the new Kingdom archery Champion to be chosen at Steppes Warlord, so not really an Award. and I will fess up to being the originator of the Mullet of Pheons (or is that five pheons in annulo sp? conjoined at base?) It was the artist in me over riding the herald. Happens more often than I will admit. Darius "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > "Royal Huntsman" is an award, right? (Oughta be handled as > a *job*, grumble grumble.) There are examples of positions > held by a single person having fielded arms (the Marshal of the HRE > with the (in)famous crossed swords, for example, or any number > of bishophrics), but I think it really ought to be fieldless. > > Daniel de Lincolia ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Wed Apr 5 12:23:39 2000 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:23:39 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily >>the corners meeting. ...five pheons in mullet... Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:31:07 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:31:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051931.OAA04647@serv1.jump.net> Mari / "Kathleen O'Brien" wrote: > the similarity of hunting horns and the drinking > horns that you see all over SCA events. Well, you can't drink from a picture of a hunting horn painted on a dangly ... A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. (Alas.) > neither of us could remember what the heck a saltorel is And to think you have them all over the place ... tsk, tsk. Saltorel: diminutive of a saltire. It's couped short of the edges of whatever it's on. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:33:21 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051933.OAA04847@serv1.jump.net> Timothy / "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > Fieldless, on a hunters horn Or a mullet of five/five sable > surmounted by a pheon or. If you mean "on a horn a mullet, on a mullet a pheon", that's an instaboing for too many layers. If you mean "a [n Ansteorran] mullet, overall a pheon", I'd expect that to be almost unrecognizable. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 13:52:10 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:52:10 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.49927@209.184.113.10> Quoth Daniel: >A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. ^^^^^^^^^ Been at the horn yourself, Daniel? >Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. >(Alas.) Still recovering from Godwyn? Or was it the kiss? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:01:44 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:01:44 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.50500@209.184.113.10> Saith the incredulous Master de Lincolia: >I would also be somewhat surprised if there's not a >"(Fieldless) >On a sun sable a widget Or" already registered, but my >initial check showed nothing. No, but what about this lovely if we wanted to drop the star: Nikolaj Zrogowacialy: (Tinctureless) A flat spiral horn of three turns reversed. Would a hunting horn be X.2 substantially changed? I'm a-doubtin' it. ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:36:47 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052136.QAA21472@serv1.jump.net> AElfwyn / jodimc at texas.net noted: > Quoth Daniel: >> A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. Lemme try that again. The hunting horn on the proposed badges page has a prominent strap, and it can be depicted as such. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:36:31 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C1@es05-hou.bmc.com> What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) --Francois -----Original Message----- From: jodimc at texas.net [mailto:jodimc at texas.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 3:52 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Quoth Daniel: >A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. ^^^^^^^^^ Been at the horn yourself, Daniel? >Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. >(Alas.) Still recovering from Godwyn? Or was it the kiss? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:40:30 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052140.QAA22473@serv1.jump.net> jodimc at texas.net / AElfwyn wrote: << No, but what about this lovely if we wanted to drop the star: Nikolaj Zrogowacialy: (Tinctureless) A flat spiral horn of three turns reversed. Would a hunting horn be X.2 substantially changed? I'm a-doubtin' it. >> I doubt it too, but it's not necessary to get X.2 to clear it. There's the fieldless / tinctureless automatic 1 CD bribe. "Tinctureless" means you can't get a tincture CD, but all the rest apply. You only need 1 more CD for type (or orientation or whatever) to clear them, and on visual or functional grounds you might get it for a three-turn horn versus a straightish one. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:37:44 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:37:44 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C2@es05-hou.bmc.com> how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily >>the corners meeting. ...five pheons in mullet... Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:41:28 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052141.QAA22806@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) How to distract a judge, technique #47: use the Bugs Bunny technique of an unexpected kiss on the smackers. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:40:51 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C4@es05-hou.bmc.com> did it work? -----Original Message----- From: tmcd at jump.net [mailto:tmcd at jump.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 4:41 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Francois wrote: > What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) How to distract a judge, technique #47: use the Bugs Bunny technique of an unexpected kiss on the smackers. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 14:47:46 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:47:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C2@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EBB482.4DA47232@earthlink.net> OK unfamiliar Blazon term, what does five Pheons in Bransle look like? "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts > >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily > >>the corners meeting. > > ...five pheons in mullet... > > Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:46:41 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:46:41 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.53198@209.184.113.10> --- Original Message --- "Bordelon, Wendel" Wrote on Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:51 -0500 ------------------ did it work? *massive chortle* Boy, did it. Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. AElfwyn, who remembers the moment fondly and with vast amusement, even if Daniel doesn't ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:53:58 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:53:58 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Daniel opined: "Tinctureless" means you can't get a tincture CD, but all the rest apply. You only need 1 more CD for type (or orientation or whatever) to clear them, and on visual or functional grounds you might get it for a three-turn horn versus a straightish one. Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. Aelfwynn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 15:01:29 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:01:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EBB7B9.20AA7E4A@earthlink.net> Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's Champion Archer" to me. Darius > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > Aelfwynn > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 15:19:50 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:19:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052219.RAA00554@serv1.jump.net> AElfwyn wrote: > Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five > minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn > or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. It was perhaps 10 seconds, which was probably a few seconds too long for maxiumum audience appreciation. Timing in comedy is everything. The misreading of later lines off the script definitely took too long. The initial stunning was because it was a guy suddenly kissing me on the lips during a performance. The continued stunning was because acting stunned was because I thought it would make the audience laugh. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 15:23:23 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:23:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > AElfwyn wrote: > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > Champion Archer" to me. No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. The king's champion is the guy in armor with a sword who rode the horse into the coronation banquet hall and upheld the king's claim. There's no period way to say "King's Champion Archer", except perhaps for the slightly-post-period Silver Arrow of S. Andrews: http://www.linksarchers.ndirect.co.uk/scottisharcher/pages/issue11/silver.htm I'd therefore rather emphasize something that *could* be period -- a huntsman with especial favour from the Crown. Daniel "The Order of John Peel?" de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:10:53 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:10:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052219.RAA00554@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBC7FD.E7C54759@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > AElfwyn wrote: > > Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five > > minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn > > or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. > > It was perhaps 10 seconds, Soooo, I exaggerate. > > The initial stunning was because it was a guy suddenly kissing me on > the lips during a performance. The continued stunning was because > acting stunned was because I thought it would make the audience laugh. > It certainly did me! AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:14:51 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:14:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBC8EB.290C12CA@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > > AElfwyn wrote: > > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > > > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > > Champion Archer" to me. > > No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable > and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the > stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. > Ooh, I *like*. Or per fess. Or Quarterly. I also like the idea of a hunting horn alone, in whatever colors, because you could do such cool things, like actually give the winner a hunting horn in the colors, or an enameled dangly in that shape, which gets to be a problem if there's a field or if it's too complicated. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:48:28 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:48:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EBD0CB.844DF300@texas.net> jodimc at texas.net wrote: > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. What about (wait for it......) (fieldless) an oliphant sable? (sorry, couldn't resist). Is there any difference between a hunting horn and any other type blowing-horn? --Alisandre ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:50:03 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:50:03 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBD12B.CC7BA8BF@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > > Champion Archer" to me. > > No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable > and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the > stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. Whyoncha have a sable horn bound, banded and strapped (or whatever) Or? --Alisandre ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 22:01:43 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:01:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C7@es05-hou.bmc.com> sorry for the delay in answer... I had to make a quick journey to Caid.... a bransle is a style of dance. War Bransle is a dance. Bransle usually have a circle of people holding hands. -Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 4:48 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please OK unfamiliar Blazon term, what does five Pheons in Bransle look like? "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts > >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily > >>the corners meeting. > > ...five pheons in mullet... > > Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From StephenMacthomas at aol.com Thu Apr 6 04:10:05 2000 From: StephenMacthomas at aol.com (StephenMacthomas at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:10:05 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Field Heraldry at Crown Tournament Message-ID: Greetings unto all to whom these presents shall come from Lord Stephen Macthomas, coordinator of field heralds for Crown Tournament. I must apologize for any duplicate posts that you may or may not receive, but I am in need of volunteers to assist with heraldry at Crown Tournament during the weekend of April 14-16 in the Barony of Loch Soillier. Though I currently have a few volunteers already in place, more people make for less strain on the voice, and so I once again make the call for assistance. As coordinator of field heralds, I am responsible for not only the voice heraldry taking place on the list field, but also for the dissemination of announcements throughout the site. Lady Meliora, the event steward, has asked that I have two gentles in place for heralding the lists at the field, two for making announcements and one in charge of the Honor Board, as well as a handful of stand-by heralds available to step in when and where needed. There are certain requirements for the list heralds and the Honor Board attendant. The list heralds are required by Kingdom Law to have a current Combat Authorization Card for Non-Combat Participation, unless they are specifically invited onto the field by the marshal-in-charge. To alleviate any such special permissions during the event, I am asking that all those who would herald the list have a current authorization in hand and have prior list heraldry experience. Those tending to the Honor Board should have a certain competency with armory and blazon, so that the pairings for each round may be posted to the Board with the greatest expediency. If there is a certain aspect that you prefer to be involved with - list, announcements or the Honor Board - please let me know in advance so that I am sure to have everything covered before the event. If you wish to volunteer your service please let me know via e-mail at stephenmacthomas at aol.com. I am looking forward to working with all of you at Crown Tournament. In service to the Crown and Ansteorra, Lord Stephen ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 07:45:34 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:45:34 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406144534.97419.qmail@hotmail.com> >No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable >and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the >stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. I am new to the whole herald thing but what if there were arrows in the bell of the horn as if in a quiver, a kind of cornicopia of arrows. Cyniric acting herald of Glaslyn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 09:29:12 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:29:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004061629.LAA06196@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric, acting herald of Glaslyn / "Richard Culver" wrote: > I am new to the whole herald thing but what if there were arrows in the > bell of the horn as if in a quiver, a kind of cornicopia of arrows. I would worry a bit about damaging the horn with that! There are examples of conjoined badges in period and in the SCA. The SCA example I'm remembering was based on a period English example: it had something like "a fish head, issuant from its mouth a cubit arm sustaining something or another". If it's period and it's distinctive, I'm usually all for it. Unfortunately for this, a fish head can naturally and easily point upward. Also unfortunately, some people might think a bent arm (for ex.) issuing from a horn and holding an arrow looks weird. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:11:33 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:11:33 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406191133.53790.qmail@hotmail.com> >I would worry a bit about damaging the horn with that! Hey, it's just an idea! :? >There are examples of conjoined badges in period and in the SCA. >The SCA example I'm remembering was based on a period English example: >it had something like "a fish head, issuant from its mouth >a cubit arm sustaining something or another". If it's period and >it's distinctive, I'm usually all for it. Unfortunately for >this, a fish head can naturally and easily point upward. >Also unfortunately, some people might think a bent arm >(for ex.) issuing from a horn and holding an arrow looks weird. I suppose for the sake of clarification what kind of "hunting horn" do people see using, The french horn looking one, a cattle horn with a strap or some other horn? I was sick for a few days so I had a mass delete episode on my e-mail. How about the horn in Or with the sable mullet on the bell over two arrows (or a quiver for that matter) in saltaire sable? I am just grasping at ideas here. :) Cyniric ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 14:15:54 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:15:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004062115.QAA03001@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric / "Richard Culver" wrote: > How about the horn in Or with the sable mullet on the bell over two > arrows (or a quiver for that matter) in saltaire sable? I am just grasping > at ideas here. PUT THE IDEAS DOWN AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY Seriously, too many people in the SCA have two weapons in saltire, or two different widgets. ("Two unrelated widgets" is actually on Tadhg's armorial cliche list.) Sure, it's doable, but the kingdom motto is "Unicus et Singularis", Unique and Singular, so why not try to live up to it? (How's *that* for an argument?) Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 14:45:59 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:45:59 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406214600.74586.qmail@hotmail.com> >Seriously, too many people in the SCA have two weapons in >saltire, or two different widgets. ("Two unrelated widgets" >is actually on Tadhg's armorial cliche list.) Sure, it's doable, >but the kingdom motto is "Unicus et Singularis", Unique and Singular, >so why not try to live up to it? (How's *that* for an argument?) > >Daniel de Lincolia Agreed. I just figure if I have enough ideas, one of them may work (nevermind the 1000 bad ones I would go through). I would agree with, I believe it was, Darius there should be something there to indicate this person is an archer. If it is just a horn the person could be Kingdom Bugler for all anyone would know. Here is another idea (it does not help beating me, I might enjoy it): :) I may use non heraldic terms here just to get what I see across. fieldless, on an archery bow with string drawn sable an arrow shaft Or headed with the a mullet of five greater and lesser points sable all pointed to chief In case I did nt make any sense (Old English is easier the\an Heraldic). Essentially the drawn bow with the arrow of yellow with the Ansteorran star as its "head" pointing upwards as if shooting to the heavens. Cyniric ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 14:55:33 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:55:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004062155.QAA06631@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric / "Richard Culver" wrote: > fieldless, on an archery bow with string drawn sable an arrow shaft Or > headed with the a mullet of five greater and lesser points sable > all pointed to chief I'm afraid my reaction is still "SCA cliche". Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Thu Apr 6 15:21:18 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:21:18 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2CD@es05-hou.bmc.com> The web page that darius creates was sent to the Archery list. I put a quick summary of what we were discussing and why. I have not seen much feedback but what I did get was that the hunters horn sounded like a good idea. There have been no violent reactions from the archers (could be that I am still out of range of the arrows) One suggestion that was received was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. One of the best things about having a hunters horn as the badge is that the pass-along symbol of the Royal Huntsman. --Francois ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Agnarr at apex2000.net Thu Apr 6 15:39:59 2000 From: Agnarr at apex2000.net (HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:39:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <002a01bfa019$0b14c3c0$7787f9d0@Agnarr> Nope just that most of us are still in shock that this is happening (grin) HL Agnarr Premiere Archer and retiring herald of Crossrode Keep -----Original Message----- From: Bordelon, Wendel To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' Date: Thursday, April 06, 2000 5:17 PM Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge > >The web page that darius creates was sent to the Archery list. I put a >quick summary of what we were discussing and why. I have not seen much >feedback but what I did get was that the hunters horn sounded like a good >idea. There have been no violent reactions from the archers (could be that >I am still out of range of the arrows) One suggestion that was received >was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. > > >One of the best things about having a hunters horn as the badge is that the >pass-along symbol of the Royal Huntsman. > >--Francois >=========================================================================== = >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 16:20:11 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <200004062320.SAA13490@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > One suggestion that was received > was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. Some heraldic fru-fru (a technical term, of course; these are highly-trained stunt heralds on a closed list field) gets blazoned even when worth no difference, but some gets stripped by Laurel (e.g., "a fleur-de-lys florencee", "armed and langued"). Some registered examples: 6/95, Andreas Tillman von Severin: "a hunting horn ... gules stringed azure" 5/87, Anna Georgievna of Kiev: "garnished". 8/87, Arthur Lacey: "banded". 5/92, Baldred Elphinstone of Torwood: "stringed and banded". 2/82, Diego Mundox: "unstrung". 2/87, Garth ap Collin: "three h.h. in annulo sable, bowed Or". 9/83, Karl Silverhorn: "stringed and lipped". 7/86, Landolf Witkowski: "garnished" and "stringed" in sep. tinct. There are a few more examples of "stringed" not cited. I'd say we have some choice of terms and a decent case to ask Laurel to keep such heraldic fru-fru (don't try this term at home). Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Thu Apr 6 20:01:42 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:01:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) References: <200004062155.QAA06631@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38ED4F96.EB0B245B@earthlink.net> Their Majesties have stated their preference is: (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a Mullet of five greater and five lesser points Being as i am not necessarily the best at This any help doing one more conflict check on it would be appreciated. Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Thu Apr 6 20:06:41 2000 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:06:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) In-Reply-To: <38ED4F96.EB0B245B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: What is the tincture of the Mullet. If sable, we have color on color. Caelin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-heralds at ansteorra.org [mailto:owner-heralds at ansteorra.org]On > Behalf Of Darius and Monica > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:02 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) > > > Their Majesties have stated their preference is: > > (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a > Mullet of five greater and five lesser points > > Being as I am not necessarily the best at This any help doing one more > conflict check on it would be appreciated. > > Darius > ================================================================== > ========== > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing > list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 7 07:59:36 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:59:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) Message-ID: <200004071459.JAA03197@serv1.jump.net> Darius wrote: > Their Majesties have stated their preference is: > > (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a > Mullet of five greater and five lesser points [Daniel begins banging his head on the desk] So much for "Unicus et Singularis". So much for not specifying heraldic fru-fru. (Rule-of-thumb complexity count of 5 on a fieldless badge. Sigh.) Out of curiosity, what choices were they presented, and by whom? Keeping in mind that there's a school of thought that Star Principal Herald ought to be their primary heraldic advisor and kept up-to-date on all dealings with the royals? > Being as I am not necessarily the best at This ... Caelin on Andrede / "Richard Threlkeld" wrote: ] What is the tincture of the Mullet. If sable, we have color ] on color. Just a Side Note: SCA blazons capitalizes only the first word, the word "Fieldless", the tincture "Or", and any proper names. (English text capitalizes only the first word of a sentence, the pronoun "I", most acronyms, proper names, et cetera.) The blazon as given is not usable as-is. As Caelin noted, there's no tincture given for the mullet. I'll bet 20 dollars to anyone's 5 cents that the Crown wants it specifically sable; any takers? Second, the mullet cannot be "on" arrows. "On" means it's a tertiary charge, a charge lying entirely upon another charge. You can't fit anything on the shaft. Conceivably, you might charge an arrow on its head or fletching, but there's but one mullet and three arrows with separate heads and tails. [Fieldless] A sheaf of arrows gules fletched and barbed Or, overall a mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable. Close to but clear of Dragonsspine, Kirk of Wendarrow, Kuji Ka Onimusashi, Robyn McLaren, and several others. There are 71 pieces of armory with three arrows, most of them in a sheaf. I have a group meeting in 4 minutes, so I can't check now. Anyone checking a raw e-Armorial should check for "ARROW:3"; the keywords after that vary too much to search for. Daniel de Lincolia, distempered -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Fri Apr 7 07:08:18 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:08:18 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question Message-ID: <200004071516.KAA11623@blackstar.ansteorra.org> I'm attempting to help out one of our shire members finally (I thought) submit her name, device, and badge. Apparently there was some attempt at the past to submit them through another group, but that didn't happen or something, and she just got her paperwork back recently. According to the wonderful index, however, some stuff had apparently been submitted back in '96. Her name (Sl?ine an Mac- T?re) was returned in Kingdom 5/96, her badge returned, and her device pended. Alas, I have '95 gazettes, and '97 gazettes, but no '96 gazettes to look at to find out a) why, and b) what exactly it was that was returned/pended. Since this was well over 2 years ago, she knows she'll have to pay again to resubmit everything. How should I submit this? I'm not sure if what she is intending to submit now is identical to what failed in the past (I don't *think* so, except for her name), or if it's all different, or what. I haven't yet seen her name documentation. -Emma de Fetherstan Shire of Mooneschadowe -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 08:37:07 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:37:07 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? Message-ID: <6e.1e5997e.261f5aa3@aol.com> I have the following sentence on a submission form: Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names, p 145 shows Frensell = Frenzel and lists Frenezel Rosenstengel dated to 1320. My question is whether the 1320 reference is for "Frenezel" or "Frenczel" -- I believe it has the "e" but I want to make sure. Kathri, Asterisk (who *really* wishes they would hurry up and reprint that book!) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Fri Apr 7 08:40:39 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:40:39 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question In-Reply-To: <200004071516.KAA11623@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000407104039.00ddebe0@es01-aus.bmc.com> >According to the wonderful index, however, some stuff had >apparently been submitted back in '96. Her name (Sl?ine an Mac- >T?re) was returned in Kingdom 5/96, her badge returned, and her >device pended. Alas, I have '95 gazettes, and '97 gazettes, but no >'96 gazettes to look at to find out a) why, and b) what exactly it >was that was returned/pended. The Bordure set of Gazettes is at home. I can look it up for you this weekend if no one posts the info before then. >Since this was well over 2 years ago, she knows she'll have to pay >again to resubmit everything. How should I submit this? I'm not >sure if what she is intending to submit now is identical to what >failed in the past (I don't *think* so, except for her name), or if it's >all different, or what. I haven't yet seen her name documentation. It needs to go in as a Resubmitted Name. Note that the original name and the date it was returned. That way, if the new name is completely different, Asterisk can find the correct file folder for her. In any case, the pended device will need to be put on new forms. So it may just be easier to draw up the device she wants now on a new form. Then submit it as a "Resubmitted device" noting that she had a device pended at kingdom (and the date of the pend) and this new form is to replace the pended device. That way it doesn't matter what the old device looked like and she should get what she wants now. Mari ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 09:45:06 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:45:06 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2000 10:17:59 AM Central Daylight Time, jds-emma at operamail.com writes: > a) why, and b) what exactly it > was that was returned/pended. This is summarized from the Gazettes: Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked "no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle ages" which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: Black, Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p 519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to 1513. Device: Argent a bend sinister between a wolf's head couped contourny gules and three trefoils vert. Pended at Kingdom for submission of acceptable name. This was the final blazon at kingdom. There was no real problem with the device, except that we needed an acceptable name before we could send it to Laurel. There is no copy of her device form in the file, but it would be on old forms that we couldn't use now. I'd advise you to check it for conflicts again before drawing it on the current forms. (If you like, you could post a request to the Ansteorran heralds list; they have been very helpful to me about conflict checks. And they're much better at it than I am!) Badge: Proposed blazon - Or, a wolf couchant gules head to sinister bearing in its mouth a sword reversed bendwise with dexter paw raised over the point, a collar fracted, the rear legs crossed with the dexter paw draped over the back and the tail nowed and erect. Returned for unblazonable position. The Gazette states "Submitter is encouraged to register a heraldic beast in a heraldic position, then use artistic license for any other details." To the CoH, this looked like an attempt to register a knotwork beast in the style of Celtic illumination, and that's not heraldry. It's artwork, but it's not heraldic art. She's more likely to succeed with, for instance, "Or a wolf couchant regardant gules [bearing in its mouth a sword reversed bendwise]." Then she can put the feet anywhere she wants once it's registered, but the copy that goes to Laurel would need to be a standard "wolf couchant" with feet flat on the ground beneath it. And of course, check for conflict before bothering to put it on forms. I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern and diligence on behalf of your submitters. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Fri Apr 7 10:36:58 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:36:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the >names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. > >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of >dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle ages" >which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: Black, >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to >1513. Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine construction" precedent. If I remember correctly, is a feminine name. Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'. So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine patronymic byname. In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally. And since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form is not registerable. There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), whether to change the particle to or , etc. >I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern >and diligence on behalf of your submitters. I'd like to thank you as well. It's so helpful to the submitters when someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission. Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something registered that she likes. Mari, Bordure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Fri Apr 7 11:28:37 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:28:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> References: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> Message-ID: <200004071937.OAA15952@blackstar.ansteorra.org> > There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are > registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, > language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what > direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an > Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to > 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), > whether to change the particle to or , etc. Thanks to both you and Kathri for help with this. I don't know (yet) what form she plans to register -- I'll get that from her Tuesday. I can guarantee she wants the "Sl[a']ine", but am not sure of the rest. The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Also, her original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find references the tail at all). -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 14:08:38 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:08:38 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <3c.27171de.261fa856@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2000 2:37:59 PM Central Daylight Time, jds-emma at operamail.com writes: > The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules > maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work > on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Either will work, if the badge is clear of conflict. Experts, what say you? > Also, her > original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be > explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find > references the tail at all). No, don't blazon it. The position of the tail isn't part of the definition of 'couchant' and it varies. Some are curled up over the back, some are "erect," some are wrapped around the beast, some are below the beast, and there are quite a few that go under the back of the body and then back up between the hind leg and the side to wave merrily in the air. It's not usually blazoned. Out of the first 200 examples in the O&A, the tail was blazoned only 7 times. And in most of those cases, something Rather Odd was happening -- by which I mean something besides what I've listed above! Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 9 11:54:41 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? In-Reply-To: <6e.1e5997e.261f5aa3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2000 Kathri at aol.com wrote: > I have the following sentence on a submission form: > > Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names, p 145 shows Frensell = Frenzel and lists > Frenezel Rosenstengel dated to 1320. > > My question is whether the 1320 reference is for "Frenezel" or > "Frenczel" -- I believe it has the "e" but I want to make sure. Here's what Bahlow has, verbatim: Frensel = Frenzel. ... Frenzel (UGer.-Sil.) = Franz, see this. Frenczel Rosenstengel, Brsl. 1328. Cf. Bahlow SN, p. 58. and back on p. 143 s.n. Franz: Franz, Frantz: after St. Francis of Assisi (died 1220), see Bahlow VN, p. 34. Nickns. Fr{a"}nzel, Frenz(e)l (UGer., also Sil.), also Sil. Franzke (with Slav. k-suffix). LGer. patrs. Frantzen, Franssen (L.Rhine). But Frentz(en), Frenssen (Holstein) means Lafrenz = Laurentius [Laurence]! Fr{a"}nznick means Nikolaus Franz. Dan. de Linc. (AN.) -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Sun Apr 9 13:45:06 2000 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee Cavett) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) References: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38F0EBD2.DCD3EFE2@texas.net> If I recall correctly, Slaine was trying to submit "mac-tire" as a byname not a patronymic, and had found something somewhere that indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf. Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that much. Donal Kathleen O'Brien wrote: > > >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the > >names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked > >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. > > > >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't > >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of > >dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from > >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle > ages" > >which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists > >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, > >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: > Black, > >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p > >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to > >1513. > > Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of > the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine > construction" precedent. > > If I remember correctly, is a feminine name. > > Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic t-saoir> as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'. > > So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine > patronymic byname. In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or > Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally. And > since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form is > not registerable. > > There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are > registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, > language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what > direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an > Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to > 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), > whether to change the particle to or , etc. > > >I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern > >and diligence on behalf of your submitters. > > I'd like to thank you as well. It's so helpful to the submitters when > someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission. > Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something > registered that she likes. > > Mari, Bordure > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. -- "All kings is mostly rapscallions." Mark Twain (1835-1910) - The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn "?, is r?mh?r ? neart mar fhathach; ach is r?dhroch ? a us?id mar fhathach..." (O, it is excellent to have a giant's strength, but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant...) William Shakespeare (translated to the Irish - every once in a while even the Sassenachs come up with a good line) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 10 01:30:08 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <200004071937.OAA15952@blackstar.ansteorra.org> from Jennifer Smith at "Apr 7, 2000 01:28:37 pm" Message-ID: <200004100830.BAA17292@agora.rdrop.com> > The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules > maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work > on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Also, her > original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be > explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find > references the tail at all). Fieldless. Not for style problems, but to clear conflict. "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper" is in conflict with James the Fox - July of 1971: Or, a fox rampant guardant gules. Only one CD for posture change. However, if you remove the field you have the second, and clearing, CD. Nothing else would seem to conflict with "A wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper" as a fieldless badge. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 10 06:40:22 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:40:22 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <76.2d4de21.262333c6@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/2000 3:36:50 PM Central Daylight Time, catsden at texas.net writes: > the submitter had found something somewhere that > indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf. True. From the documentation: _A Pronouncing and Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language_, Malcolm MacLennan (University Press, Aberdeen, 1979, photolithographic reproduction of the first edition, 1925, published by John Grant, Edinburgh), p 610 shows: wolf, s. madadh-allahd; mac-tire; faol Also _Book of Irish Names_, Coghlan, R et al, (Sterling Pub Co, NY,NY, 1989) p 127 in chapter "Root Words" shows: Mac-tire (macteera), a wolf; *micteera, victeera* (Kathri is back now---) Coghlan is no longer allowed as a name source (due to proven inaccuracy and unreliability), and a dictionary definition does not prove that a word was ever used as a name. So the existing documentation doesn't work. I think the submitter should be advised to document the name she wants any way she can, without worrying about meaning, and register the arms she wants if they don't conflict. If she believes they are canting arms, that's fine, especially if they really are. Either way, the College of Heralds will have done its job. > Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that > much. Me, too! I don't remember this much about submissions that went through last month! Never mind 1996! Kathri, * ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 10 07:10:16 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:10:16 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? Message-ID: In a message dated 4/9/2000 1:57:01 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net writes: > Here's what Bahlow has, verbatim: Thanks, Daniel, and to Magnus for the private post, as well. This reference has been checked. Kathri, * ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Apr 10 21:52:59 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:52:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Herald authorization Message-ID: This is from Sir Kief, reprinted with permission. I thank him for his sane and convenient policy. Even though I don't set foot on the list field, and I have no authorization card, I still plan to be cautious near the field, as fighters do occasionally come to the ropes. I plan to keep an eye on the combat constantly -- as a field herald, I have to anyway, to see when there is victory -- and I think anyone, authorized or no, ought to do the same when in reach of the list field. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:09:19 CDT From: Kief av Kiersted To: tmcd at jump.net Subject: Re: Fwd: Herald authorization Heilsa Good my Brother Daniel...! You did ask: >>Please clear something up for me. Does a herald have to have >>an authorization card, even if he never steps on the list field >>and makes all calls from outside? >> >>DdL If the herald never enters the field then they do not have to have an Authorization Card. The AC is necessary for those folks that put themselves "in harm's way"...even in a manner that would practically never bring them into combat range. Entering the field of combat or the melee field on "official" business entertains a slight risk of injury even between bouts or, in the case of melee, between battles. The AC insures that (hopefully) the herald, waterbearer, et cetera has been informed of when they can enter the field and what the basic marshal's commands are all about. I do hope that this explains my position on the AC for many of our non-contact participants. W?s ?u H?l kinsman...! Kief - EM Ansteorra "Better the Hammer than the nail..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From ly_juliana at hotmail.com Tue Apr 11 19:34:30 2000 From: ly_juliana at hotmail.com (Dianna Fowler) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:34:30 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - World Geography Class Message-ID: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> Please excuse me, my daughter needs to talk with someone that has immigrated from the former USSR. This is for a freshman world geography class project. Thank you for your time, Juliana Foulare mka Dianna Fowler Ravensfort Ansteorra ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Tue Apr 11 21:56:17 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:56:17 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question References: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Good evening to all, I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) Also, I am trying to submit my name as Rufus Guthrie. The persona would be lowland Scots Late 14th Century. Would Rufus be to early? I can find a source saying William II was nicknamed Rufus approx. 1118. Is there too much of a gap here? Thanks for the help, Rufus, at least for now!!! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 11 21:33:39 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> from Kendall Johnson at "Apr 11, 2000 09:56:17 pm" Message-ID: <200004120433.VAA09908@agora.rdrop.com> > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per Saltire sable > and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) Spelling is fine, you only need to capitalize the first word in the blazon (SCA standard is that only Or gets the capital letter), and we'll need a tincture for that cross before it can be checked. > Also, I am trying to submit my name as Rufus Guthrie. The persona would be > lowland Scots Late 14th Century. Would Rufus be to early? I can find a > source saying William II was nicknamed Rufus approx. 1118. Is there too much > of a gap here? Lowland?? Cool! Guthrie is great. Black's _The Surnames of Scotland_ has a large entry on the name, dating it first from 1299, through the middle ages after that, and giving quite a few alternative spellings throughout. No worries on that, the spelling "Guthrie" is dated 1299, 1348, 1388, the spelling "Guthre" is found in 1464 and 1473, and back to "Gutherie" in 1624. Your chosen spelling should be very acceptible for the late 14th century (see 1388 dating above). Rufus, unfortunately, is a problem. It seems to have been used exclusively as a nickname before the 19th c. You could then be Rufus Guthrie, but Rufus won't fly as a medieval personal name. Allow me to suggest the article "13th & 14th Century Scottish Names" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/symonFreser/scottish14/ as a place to peruse dated Scottish names which would make good personal names. Here's what the Academy of Saint Gabriel had to say on : was originally a Latin byname meaning 'red(-haired)'; it survived as a rare surname at least into the 19th century. [3] We have no evidence that it was used as a given name much before the 19th century [4]. Therefore, we cannot recommend that your friend uses as a given name, no matter what his hair color is. [3] Bardsley, Charles, _A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames_ (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1980); s.n. Rufus. [4] Dunkling, Leslie and William Gosling, _The New American Dictionary of First Names_ (New York: Signet Books, 1983); s.n. Rufus. Of course, a man with a very common personal name, like Ihon (John) or William or Thomas, would most likely be known by his nickname more than his given name for the same reasons that modern men named John or Robert often have nicknames. So the name "William Rufus Guthrie" is not only a fine Scottish Lowlands name for the late 14th century, it's also one which would result in the bearer being called Rufus to difference him from all those other Williams out there. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Tue Apr 11 22:04:50 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:04:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Rufus Guthrie References: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Message-ID: <38F403F2.6260@txcyber.com> Greetings Rufus in the far West of our kingdom in the fair shire of Adlersruhe. William the Conquerer was succeeded by his son William called Rufus. He was an very unusual king. Rufus is found in Scotland as a last name but it probably wasn't used as a first name historically. That having been said it can be used as a first or given name in the SCA because of the saints by that name. If you want it, it is registerable, if not 100% historically accurate. From Laurels Letters February 1994 LoAR under Middle Kingdom acceptances "Rufus of Stamford. Name and device. Per pale argent and sable, two cedar trees counterchanged on a chief wavy Or three arrowheads inverted sable, and a base azure. As noted in the 1990 registration of Rufus Barbarossa, a Rufus of Capua was honored as a martyr in the Sarum calendar and several 15th century monastic calendars. Rufus would thus appear to be an acceptable given name." Morlet, Marie-Therese. Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de L'Ancienne Gaule du VI au XII Siecle. Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique: Paris, 1972. Volume 2 page 99 under Rufus dates the name to 541-549 AD. Book of Saints by Benedictine monks of St. Augustine Abbey, Ramsgate, 6th ed., A. & C. Black Ltd. London, 1989. There are several saints named Rufus among these: Rufus of Metz 400 AD Rufus of Capua 295 AD Rufus of Avignon 200 AD Rufus of Rome 90 AD As for Guthrie Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland, page 333 under Guthrie gives Adam de Guthrie from 1348. So much for Rufus Guthrie. Per saltire sable and ermine, a cross bottony. What color is the cross? I am guessing Or because of the field contrast and argent would get lost in the ermine field. A cross bottony must also be checked against a cross crosslet among others. A cross as a sole primary charge can be very nasty to check and clear of conflict. There is only one per saltire sable and ermine registered as a field. yours in service Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Tue Apr 11 21:11:32 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per > Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) A cross bottony *what*? We need a tincture for the cross. Just to be sure, you might want to describe it in plain English. To be sure of what's been said so far, "per saltire" is a division of the field that looks like (set a fixed-width font if necessary): \ / X / \ The top and bottom slices are black, and the side slices are ermine (white background containing black ermine spots). Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Wed Apr 12 08:00:31 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:00:31 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question References: Message-ID: <001b01bfa48f$d9a7e1c0$d264fea9@vulcan> sorry, forgot about the cross. It would be counter charged over all. thanks again, Rufus ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per > > Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) > > A cross bottony *what*? We need a tincture for the cross. > > Just to be sure, you might want to describe it in plain English. To > be sure of what's been said so far, "per saltire" is a division of the > field that looks like (set a fixed-width font if necessary): > > \ / > X > / \ > > The top and bottom slices are black, and the side slices are ermine > (white background containing black ermine spots). > > Daniel de Lincolia > -- > Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; > if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. > "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- > thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 12 09:19:54 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:19:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question Message-ID: <200004121619.LAA19153@serv1.jump.net> Rufus / "Kendall Johnson" rote: > the cross. It would be counter charged over all. "Counterchanged", not "countercharged". In the past, and I think sometimes in real-world armory, "overall" has had at least two meanings, including the meaning you intend. Currently in the SCA, it means solely "a charge partially overlying another charge and partially directly on the field". Since there is only one charge in this design, there can be no overall charges. Final blazon: Per saltire sable and ermine, a cross bottony counterchanged. I have one other armorial style note: some people who have gone for ermine have regretted it the first time they went to paint, embroider, or otherwise realize the design. One person, coloring N copies of his submission form, said "I repent me of my sin of ermine", and changed the submission on the spot. You might want to consider this factor. > Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; > if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. > "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- > thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) And with unquoted line breaks too. Unfortunately, you're not alone in the club. When replying to a message, please use your mail composing editor (delete key, select-block-and-delete, whatever) to trim the quoted text to the minimum necessary to establish the context of your reply. Note that I quoted only one line of yours, because that's all I needed. Also, please put replies *after* the quote, because it makes more sense that way. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 12 10:52:16 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:52:16 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: Heraldry submissions (Another typo.) Message-ID: In a message dated 4/11/2000 5:39:37 PM Central Daylight Time, debell at txcyber.com writes: > From ILOI 0300 currently under commentary > 17) Ricardo Estaban de Salamanca new name. > The name is Esteban in Elsbeth's article on Spanish names > which I have in front of me as well as in Melcon'a book. > > If this is a typo (snip) It's a typo. The forms and documentation all have Esteban with an "e" in the middle. Correction will be documented in the April Gazette (if Aelfwyn is kind) and in the AICC. (I got it right on his device in the April Gazette!) Kathri * * I think I need to make a typing test part of the application for this job. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Doug Bell Subject: Heraldry submissions Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:39:43 -0500 Size: 1646 URL: From rayasmith at yahoo.com Wed Apr 12 15:41:16 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check Message-ID: <20000412224116.20872.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian_Smith at Dell.com wrote: > From: Brian_Smith at Dell.com > To: rayasmith at yahoo.com > Subject: RE: BG - Tuesday Night Heraldic > Consultation > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:45:26 -0500 > > Ray, > > I consulted with, you I believe, last night on a > badge. It was Fieldless on > bend a lion's jambe (aka paw, leg) argent erased. I > have gone to the SCA > hearldy web site and attempted to search all of > their forms for "lion's > paw", and the other two names, but I didnt come up > with any hits. Usually > I'ld be happy with that but I'm not sure that I'm > searching correctly. Can > you either search for conflicts on this badge or > better yet suggest which > form and what sentax to use in the search? > > Thanks, > Don Brian Cameron > Can anyone conflict-check this badge for me, as I still have spotty and limited access to the net and don't have time to check this at the library, pretty please? Thank you - Andre de Chartres ===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 12 17:03:13 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:03:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check Message-ID: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Andre / Ray Smith wrote: > RE: BG - Tuesday Night Heraldic Oh, dear. Did that go on anyway, with all the rain? I assumed it was going to be called off! > Don Brian Cameron / Brian_Smith at Dell.com wrote: > > Fieldless on bend a lion's jambe (aka paw, leg) argent erased. ... Problem (as is usual when someone isn't completely familiar with armory; better in such cases to describe it in plain English). Is it a jambe on a bend? If so, the blazon says the jambe and the bend are the same tincture, so the leg would disappear (and the badge would be returned). Is it a jambe bendwise in some way? > > to the SCA hearldy web site and attempted to search all of their > > forms for "lion's paw", and the other two names, but I didnt come > > up with any hits. The categories start with "LEG AND FOOT-BEAST" in the internal coding. However, the primary charge here is the bend couped, if there is a bend at all. (You can't have a plain bend on a fieldless badge: there's no edge of the shield to end the ordinary.) In such a case, the leg is a tertiary and will at most contribute 1 CD. A thingy on a bend couped is not any period style badge I've seen. Does the client want just a lion's jambe in some orientation and tincture? That would be fine style, and they could display it on any tincture they liked. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Apr 12 18:49:02 2000 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:49:02 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check In-Reply-To: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000412204902.006aaef0@admin.stedwards.edu> At 07:03 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does the client want just a lion's jambe in some orientation and >tincture? That would be fine style, and they could display it on any >tincture they liked. He wants (Fieldless) A lion's jambe erased bendwise argent. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Apr 12 19:03:34 2000 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:03:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000412204902.006aaef0@admin.stedwards.edu> References: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000412210334.006a37f8@admin.stedwards.edu> At 08:49 PM 4/12/00 -0500, I wrote: >He wants (Fieldless) A lion's jambe erased bendwise argent. I don't see any conflicts. There aren't all that many items under Leg--Beast in the Ordinary. The closest two are: Berhtrad Athalbrand von Strassburg (Fieldless) A lion's gambe bendwise erased argent, sustaining by the blade a sword bendwise sinister sable 1 CD for fieldless vs. fieldless; 1 for adding sustained charge Elsa de Lyon Azure, a lion's jambe erased bendwise shackled and chained with a broken chain within a bordure embattled argent 1 CD for fieldless vs. fielded; 1 for adding bordure Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Wed Apr 12 19:35:10 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:35:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - name documentation fun - Sla'ine Message-ID: <200004130300.WAA19965@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Okay, I've had a chance to talk with Sla'ine about her name. She'd started paperwork after "an Mac-Tire" bounced to try "Sla'ine the Wolf". She did find a reference to an Irish family that in late period used the surname "Fox", with the chief of the family using "The Fox", due to some ancestor in the 11th century who became known as "an Sionnach (the fox)". This does not look to me to be great documentation for this type of name, but I'm sort of at a loss as to where to go next. I believe she will accept either Sla'ine the Wolf or Sla'ine . -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 12 23:39:19 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:39:19 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - name documentation fun - Sla'ine References: <200004130300.WAA19965@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <38F56B97.42D@txcyber.com> Sla'ine ingen (Patronymic) mac tire might just work. It is all Gaelic and mac tire meaning son of the land (wolf) may be able to be used as a descriptive byname refering to the father or for the grandfather. Some Patronymics for the fathers name that refer to wolves. Conall - strong as a wolf Conamail - wolflike Congal - fierce as a wolf Conma'el - wolf warrior If you wanted to leave Gaelic there are Slanina MacTyre or Slanina le Wulf (Wolf) Mari has been working with Gaelic lately so get her opinion on this. Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 13 20:12:53 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:12:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - OT: Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus Message-ID: This is completely off-topic for any heraldic list. I am a *bad*, *bad* man. Mistress Jaelle will be punishing me momentarily. http://www.guerilla.u-net.com/mp/fz.htm is a Web page for Guerilla Films. One thing they are offering is "Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus", two MP episodes that were filmed for German television in 1971 and 1972. The first one is in German ("What English scripts? I was told you all speak German.") with English subtitles. The second is in English. Some skits are from the series, some later were done at the Hollywood Bowl, some are unique. 'Graham Chapman said of the programmes: "It was probably a stage further than any of the BBC TV shows in terms of absurdity and peculiar starts, and it lacked any sort of thread to keep the audience sane."' '"The happiest event since the invention of brain surgery." -- Pisso the Alcoholic Dog' It is available by mail order only, in VHS NTSC (US and anywhere civilized) and VHS PAL (anywhere civilised). With Visa, MasterCard, JCB, or Switch, it's #10.99 with free air-mail shipping and handling. At current exchange rates, that's US$17.50. (It's $28 by cheque.) That Web page again: http://www.guerilla.u-net.com/mp/fz.htm Daniel "yah dee buckety, rum ping kadoo, ni ni ni, yaaoooo!" de Lincolia (Note: I am well aware of the original meaning of "momentarily" and that the US is excluded from both.) -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Fri Apr 14 07:29:09 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:29:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - A new Star in the future Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C304@es05-hou.bmc.com> Unto the members of the Ansteorran College of Heralds does Francois la Flamme, Star Prinipal Herald, for a short time more, sends heartfelt greetings! Their Royal Magesties informed the applicants and myself of Their choice. Honorable Lord Borek will be the next Star. The transfer of office will be done at Crown Tournement. I have enjoyed leading such a fine group but am looking forward to the release from office. Thank you all for your help in during my term in office. Without your hard work , I would not have looked so good. Thank you. --Francois, Star/sable roundel ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From morganson at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 08:10:12 2000 From: morganson at hotmail.com (Jerry Dreifuerst) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:10:12 GMT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list Message-ID: <20000414151012.89670.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings Heralds of Ansteorra, Othar here. I recently took on the duties of Herald for Stargate. Griffin ap Rhys (of past posting as Robert de Mohun) has been helping me organize and handle the reams of paper and volumes of books that come with the office. Your helpful hints and comments will be very welcome. Yours in service, Centurion Othar Morganson Othar Morganson, of the Barony of the Stargate, in the Kingdom of Ansteorra, may be reached at: morganson at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Fri Apr 14 11:02:11 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:02:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list References: <20000414151012.89670.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38F75D23.1DF8@txcyber.com> Othar Remember the most useful book for heralds is the SCA Pic Dic. Herald's tables should always have trays of food to lure unsuspecting members of the populace into range of the attack heralds. Best of luck to ye Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From culn97 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 14 13:56:17 2000 From: culn97 at yahoo.com (Rod Jackson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list Message-ID: <20000414205617.8414.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com> Othar, Chocolate makes real good bait!! Cullinn --- Doug Bell wrote: > Othar > > Remember the most useful book for heralds is the SCA > Pic Dic. > > Herald's tables should always have trays of food to > lure > unsuspecting members of the populace into range of > the > attack heralds. > > Best of luck to ye > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to > perform mailing list tasks. > ===== Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Mon Apr 17 13:03:19 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:03:19 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge Message-ID: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Can someone help me conflict check this, and/or tell me if there's anything that needs to be changed? Fieldless, on a lozenge dovetailed purpure an equal-armed celtic cross couped plain argent. (May be a bit wordy -- it's the thingy on the bottles in http://www.generich.com/elfsea/GulfWar00/caelin-gw00-41.jpg) -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Mon Apr 17 14:37:08 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:37:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge References: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <38FB8404.3F3@txcyber.com> A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. The device would become Purpure, an equal armed Celtic cross argent. LoAR May 1996 Returns - DRACHENWALD Ragna Kolgrimsdotti [(Fieldless) On an oval azure a horseshoe argent] "If a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge: such a design is interpretable as a display of arms, with the tertiary as a primary. For instance, we don't permit [Fieldless] On a lozenge argent a fleur-de-lys gules: since the lozenge is a medium for heraldic display, this looks like a display of Argent a fleur-de-lys gules. 1) Purpure, an equal armed Celtic cross argent. Gormflait Suiban ni Cuallachta January of 1973: Gyronny Or and azure, a Celtic cross argent, fimbriated sable. I think the field and fimbriation would give this 2 CDs since the fimbriation is treated as another cross on the first one. 2) It could have an argent field. The argent field looks to conflict with George Emerson True March of 1988 (via the East): "Argent, on a lozenge palewise throughout purpure, a winged lion rampant guardant to sinister, wings elevated and addorsed, argent." There should be a CD for type for the dovetailing but I am not sure about a CD for throughout. 3) If could have an Or field. The Or field looks to be clear of conflict. If you like one of the three alternatives here grab Daniel or Gwenllian and get one of them to do another conflict check. Yours in service Magnus von L?beck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Apr 17 15:09:31 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:09:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge Message-ID: <200004172209.RAA18245@serv1.jump.net> Magnus / Doug Bell wrote: > A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. A charged *plain* lozenge. Note the precedent quote: "If a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge". I don't see how a "lozenge dovetailed", the instant case, could possibly be considered a "medium for heraldic display". Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Mon Apr 17 15:08:57 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:08:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge In-Reply-To: <38FB8404.3F3@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <200004172214.RAA07158@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Magnus von L?beck wrote: > A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. > The device would become Purpure, an equal armed Celtic > cross argent. > LoAR May 1996 > Returns - DRACHENWALD Ragna Kolgrimsdotti > [(Fieldless) On an oval azure a horseshoe argent] "If > a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, > it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge: such a > design is interpretable as a display of arms, with the > tertiary as a primary. For instance, we don't permit > [Fieldless] On a lozenge argent a fleur-de-lys gules: > since the lozenge is a medium for heraldic display, > this looks like a display of Argent a fleur-de-lys gules. A plain lozenge would be obvious, yes, as would a roundel or an oval, etc, but a lozenge dovetailed? That was where I was most unclear. It doesn't look to *me* like a medium for heraldic display, but that's why I'm asking. :) > 2) It could have an argent field. > The argent field looks to conflict with George Emerson > True March of 1988 (via the East): > "Argent, on a lozenge palewise throughout purpure, a > winged lion rampant guardant to sinister, wings elevated > and addorsed, argent." > There should be a CD for type for the dovetailing > but I am not sure about a CD for throughout. Of the suggested alternates, this is the best one. -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 17 20:10:52 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge In-Reply-To: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> from Jennifer Smith at "Apr 17, 2000 03:03:19 pm" Message-ID: <200004180310.UAA11705@agora.rdrop.com> > Fieldless, on a lozenge dovetailed purpure an equal-armed celtic > cross couped plain argent. Stick the fieldless designation into brackets. Consider it a scribal standard, not part of the blazon. All right, by putting a complex line on the lozenge you remove the appearance of a shape for heraldic display, and can therefore have a lozenge as a fieldless badge. I give you this registration from February 1999: Kenric Bjarnarson (Fieldless) On a lozenge ploye, two pheons in pale conjoined at the base throughout Or. The blazon looks fine, since the cross is most definitely couped to follow the edges of the lozenge. No consideration of conflict, but the client might wish to know about this one: Brenna Lowri o Ruthin - January of 1990 (via Meridies): (Fieldless) On a lozenge engrailed Or, an equal-armed Celtic cross azure. I wouldn't even consider a visual confusion on this, though, with the totally different colours and line treatment. It's just my policy to inform clients about similar stuff which is already registered. This is quite clear. Makes a great wine label, too. :) - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cahira_of_bonwicke at yahoo.com Mon Apr 17 23:02:33 2000 From: cahira_of_bonwicke at yahoo.com (Cahira) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... Message-ID: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings! I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my barony is trying to document her name, and I don't know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything you can give me would be wonderful and greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cahira of Bonwicke __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 17 23:34:03 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... In-Reply-To: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> from Cahira at "Apr 17, 2000 11:02:33 pm" Message-ID: <200004180634.XAA27450@agora.rdrop.com> > I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know > almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my > barony is trying to document her name, and I don't > know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina > and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything > you can give me would be wonderful and greatly > appreciated. Start at the Academy of Saint Gabriel Library: http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/ or The Medieval Names archive: http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/ I found in the article "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html which is linked to both the above pages. and are in the article "Flemish Names from Bruges, 1400-1600" at http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/ And is in "Sixteenth Century Norman Names" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/cateline/norman16.html Caterina is also found in the Italian women's names listings on those pages. It's also found in the article "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/talan/reaney/ Remember that many English names are rooted in Normandy, so that's a good reference to check for French names, too. You're doing great. I got up in front of my shire and said, "I don't really know much yet, but I know where to get help." They made me their herald. Now I'm helping other people. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 19 05:28:21 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:28:21 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <7a.41ac14b.262f0065@aol.com> Please let me know if this device conflicts with anything: Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. Thanks, Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at healthaxis.com Wed Apr 19 05:40:25 2000 From: TRayburn at healthaxis.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:40:25 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34B51@NRHCRE00> Precedent Question : I know that Fleur-de-lys are stylized Lilies. Do they conflict check against them? If they conflict check against, are lillies subject to Fleur-de-lys precedents? If they are subject to such, then this would run afoul of the reservation of 3 or more gold fleur-de-lys being reserved for France, right? Timothy -----Original Message----- From: Kathri at aol.com [SMTP:Kathri at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 7:28 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Please let me know if this device conflicts with anything: Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. Thanks, Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 19 08:18:52 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <200004191518.KAA18977@serv1.jump.net> I haven't checked precedents, but I would not expect a natural lily and a fleur-de-lys to conflict. I believe that, despite the name, the origins of the FDL are somewhat obscure. However, if there was no CD, then they'd pretty much be considered artistic variants, and the prohibition of France would indeed apply. That was an excellent point to bring up and good thinking. Daniel "broad*arrow*, broad*arrow*, broad*arrow*" de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 19 10:48:32 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:48:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fleur-de-lys References: <200004191518.KAA18977@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38FDF170.1AA8@txcyber.com> As Daniel often suggests the Pic Dic was consulted. The Lily and Fleur-de-lys are separate charges in period so they are heraldically different. That certainly eliminates lots of items to check. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 19 11:10:54 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:10:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) References: <7a.41ac14b.262f0065@aol.com> Message-ID: <38FDF6AE.56AC@txcyber.com> Kathri Aelfraed Hawkmoon December of 1987 (via Atenveldt): Argent, on a bend sinister, doubly cotised, azure a hawk rising, wings displayed and inverted, and an increscent moon, both palewise, argent. Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. There is a CD for changes to the tertiaries on the bend and should be a CD for double vs single cotising for addition of a secondary. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 19 11:29:00 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <200004191829.NAA02974@serv1.jump.net> Magnus / Doug Bell wrote: > and should be a CD for double vs single cotising for > addition of a secondary. To be more precise, for changing the number of an existing group of secondaries (X.4.f). Daniel de L -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Wed Apr 19 12:45:00 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:45:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... References: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38FE0CBC.4CAC97E9@flash.net> Cahira wrote: > I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know > almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my > barony is trying to document her name, and I don't > know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina > and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything > you can give me would be wonderful and greatly > appreciated. Generally speaking, French feminine names end in -e and not -a. Modern French uses "C" for the "K" sound, but Teceangl was able to supply several examples beginning with "K" so you should be all set. Nothing in Dauzat's "Noms de Personne" that's close. Lots of other "Catherine" variants. --Perronnelle -- A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 20 01:09:57 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) In-Reply-To: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34B51@NRHCRE00> from "Rayburn, Timothy" at "Apr 19, 2000 07:40:25 am" Message-ID: <200004200809.BAA20951@agora.rdrop.com> > I know that Fleur-de-lys are stylized Lilies. Do they conflict check > against them? > > If they conflict check against, are lillies subject to Fleur-de-lys > precedents? > > If they are subject to such, then this would run afoul of the reservation of > 3 or more gold fleur-de-lys being reserved for France, right? Thanks for the call, Timothy. Unlike Daniel, I did go check precedents. :P I found this back in Bambi's stuff, nothing since: [One commenter] has shown there was apparently a difference noted by heralds in period between the stylized fleur-de-lys and the natural lily flower since the arms of Eton College contain both used in a cadency context. Under the new rules this is enough to determine that a difference of type may be granted, assuming no real possibility of confusion. (LoAR 17 Jun 90, p. 4) So no worries there. No problem of conflict (bends and bends sinister are X.2. different), but I thought you might want to know about this one: Rowan le Beau - March of 1998 (via AEthelmearc): Argent, on a bend cotised azure a lily palewise Or between two others argent. It's my personal policy to notify clients of such things as exact outline and mirror-imaging, even though it has nothing to do with conflict. (Keeps 'em from coming back to me and saying, "I just saw my EXACT device only in different colours! Why didn't you TELL me???") It's clear. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 11:10:13 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Katarina References: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38FF4805.68BB@txcyber.com> Some additional arguments for Katarina Medieval German Given Names from Silesia Women's Names by Talan Gwynek http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowFem.html under Katherine Katharina 1348 Katerina 1350 Morlet, Marie-Therese. Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de L'Ancienne Gaule du VI au XII Siecle. Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique: Paris, 1972. Volume 2 page 32 under Catherina dates the name to 1113, Caterina to 1113 and Katherina to the 12th century. De Felice, Emidio. dizionario dei nomi italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori: Milan, 1986. Page 102 under Caterina lists Catarina as a variant. Withycombe page 186 under Katharine gives Katharina and Katerina as Latin forms. Katharina (the Latin) looks to be the closest that could be used with a French name even French forms favor the C over the K. Catarina could also be used with a French name. You could try an argument for the spelling Katarina based on this information. Magnus von L?beck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 15:05:49 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs Message-ID: <38FF7F3D.6789@txcyber.com> Daniel commented on the problems with using a fur on a cloth display. To make life easier with semys and furs when they are going on a shield make an cardboard outline template of the fur spot or charge. Then you can spray paint with the right color as many as you need on the shield. The same outline template can be used with fabric paint on banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so many devices. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Thu Apr 20 15:18:42 2000 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:18:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs In-Reply-To: <38FF7F3D.6789@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> > banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed > more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so > many devices. I agree with everything Magnus said, but this. Folks seem to think it's hard to register simple devices. Luckily for us, that's not true. I've got three armorial submissions going up from my Barony: "Vert, three bendlets enhanced argent," "Per saltire gules and azure," and "[Fieldless] A lion rampant vert." All three have been conflict checked and are clear, and not one of them uses furs. -Aryanhwy (who used ermine on her device because she liked it--and because it plays on my badge.) "Purpure, a bordure ermine" "[Fieldless] An ermine statant purpure." -- Sara L. Friedemann * http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann -- "He knew his life was incomplete for he had yet to suffer." Strawbs, _Hero & Heroine_ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 15:26:29 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:26:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs References: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> Message-ID: <38FF8415.2E13@txcyber.com> What came to mind with furs was using cats, dragons, and saltires in simple devices. They have been registered to death in the SCA. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rayasmith at yahoo.com Thu Apr 20 15:39:37 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Client's follow-up to submission - help? Message-ID: <20000420223937.25581.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings all. I have had a request from one of my fellow Bryn Gwladians to find out what (if anything) befell her name submission. I checked the SCA Laurel's page and the Ansteorra page and found that the name "Celestria Monelyght le Dragon" was in the ILoI July '99 issue (item #7, I believe?), accepted at Kingdom September '99, and in the Ansteorran Gazette October '99. The kingdom page has it listed as in progress. Is there any way to find out if this has been accepted (or rejected) sometime this year at Laurel (the most recent back issue of the thing at Laurel was December '99), or is this the best I can do at this time? Andre de Chartres, Bryn Gwlad ===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Thu Apr 20 15:55:35 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:55:35 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Client's follow-up to submission - help? In-Reply-To: <20000420223937.25581.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000420175535.00f132d4@es01-aus.bmc.com> >Is there any way to find out if this has been accepted >(or rejected) sometime this year at Laurel (the most >recent back issue of the thing at Laurel was December >'99), or is this the best I can do at this time? In the January 2000 LoAR, Under Acceptances (for Ansteorra) is listed: Celestria Monelyght le Dragon. Name. So her name passed. I don't know when the LoARs will be up on the Laurel page. I have Jan & Feb in .rtf and WordPerfect formats and can forward them to you. Just let me know which format you prefer. The March and April LoARs are not out yet. (And I don't think I've received the Feb LoAR in hardcopy yet - just in electronic form.) Mari, Bordure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Thu Apr 20 21:11:08 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:11:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs References: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> Message-ID: <38FFD4DB.6211B5C6@texas.net> Sara L Friedemann wrote: > > banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed > > more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so > > many devices. > > I agree with everything Magnus said, but this. I must agree. This is right up there with the people who say that all the possible combinations of notes have been used up, so there will be no more new simple melodies. It ain't so. --Alisandre "still humming" Oliphant ...someone else who's heard of the Strawbs? wow ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Fri Apr 21 11:36:06 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:36:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette Message-ID: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Okay, they're in the mail. I had them ready for labeling and mailing a week ago, but was beset by migraine. Seems that holders of this office have to be migraneurs--ah, which reminds me, guys, I'm only *acting* Obelisk--get those cards and letters in the mail--and we will consider those not afflicted by the headache menace. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Sat Apr 22 13:05:07 2000 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:05:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette In-Reply-To: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> References: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Message-ID: >Seems that holders of this office >have to be migraneurs--... >AElfwyn I don't recall listing that as a requirement... ;-) Glad to hear you're better though. Etienne ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Sat Apr 22 17:38:43 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:38:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette References: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Message-ID: <39024612.F221B4C2@flash.net> "Darin K. Herndon" wrote: > > >Seems that holders of this office > >have to be migraneurs--... > >AElfwyn > > I don't recall listing that as a requirement... ;-) > Glad to hear you're better though. > > Etienne I get migraines, but I refuse to apply for Obelisk. I'm taking some time off. :-) --Perronnelle -- A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 24 06:59:57 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:59:57 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette Message-ID: In a message dated 4/22/2000 7:41:23 PM Central Daylight Time, charlene at flash.net writes: > > >Seems that holders of this office > > >have to be migraneurs--... > > >AElfwyn I didn't get migraines while I was Obelisk, although the Gazette was sometimes a headache all unto itself. Migraines must be one of the many things Etienne added. Kathri, ex-Obelisk, almost ex-Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cbackus at enid.com Mon Apr 24 13:48:36 2000 From: cbackus at enid.com (Chris Backus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:48:36 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: Message-ID: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Mon Apr 24 12:00:01 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:00:01 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Message-ID: <390499B1.98D10256@earthlink.net> which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? Darius Chris Backus wrote: > > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cbackus at enid.com Mon Apr 24 14:14:34 2000 From: cbackus at enid.com (Chris Backus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:14:34 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> <390499B1.98D10256@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001501bfae32$18553b60$3e4721d0@cbackus> Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. Hawkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Darius and Monica To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? > Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Mon Apr 24 12:19:25 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:19:25 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Message-ID: <39049E3C.6DCD3183@texas.net> Pretty clearly nobody, especially the Achievements links. --Alisandre Chris Backus wrote: > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 12:21:57 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:21:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C331@es05-hou.bmc.com> At the moment, that would be me. The heraldic web page job is open for applications but in the mean time..... --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 3:49 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 12:23:23 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:23:23 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C332@es05-hou.bmc.com> You would of course ask about those specifically... well.... those have been a problem.. It would probably be better to just ask your question.... --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 4:15 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. Hawkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Darius and Monica To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? > Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Mon Apr 24 15:39:10 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:39:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - KWHS - 60days Message-ID: It is now **60days** and counting till Knowne World Heraldic (and Scribal) Symposium, set in Houston, TX on June 23-25th, this summer, at Rice University campus. Please, get those pre-registrations in the mail, in order to reserve dorm space! One or two teachers are still needed for each of the 5 tracks (Armory, Onomastics, Administration, Calligraphy and Illumination). Please contact the autocrat or fill out the teacher registration on website. The Proceedings book deadline has been extended to May 27th, but no later. Only two articles have been received to date. If you intend to submit articles or artwork, please contact the editor to reserve space. Feel free to forward this missive as needed. For questions, please e-mail me directly. Check out the website for weekly updated teacher list, at: See you this summer! Mst. Hillary Greenslade, Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 19:41:21 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage In-Reply-To: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C332@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> I've finished putting the backlog of 1999 and 2000 LoIs into HTML and have forwarded them to Francois. They should be up on the server soon. I have them in Word97 format and can email them if anyone needs them sooner than that. Next I'll HTML the LoCs and RtCs. FYI, I was told by the Virtual Scribe in September not to give him any more HTML documents until after the new server was in place. That's why these documents haven't been kept up to date over the last few months. That should now be resolved. Mari At 02:23 PM 4/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >You would of course ask about those specifically... well.... those have >been a problem.. > >It would probably be better to just ask your question.... > >--Francois > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] >Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 4:15 PM >Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > > >Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. > >Hawkins ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Mon Apr 24 21:56:27 2000 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:56:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - More Ansteorran heraldry webpage In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> Message-ID: Well speaking from the "I used to be in office but have unfinished work" limbo... Check out http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/gazette/index.html I just updated the site and have several past Gazettes posted in PDF format. Please note that compressed copies for download will follow. If you choose to open a file and view online, be aware; some of those files are about 1 megabyte in size. Send comments to our Acting Obelisk (ducked that one didn't I AElfwyn ;-)). Oh, and I will make the site match the standard background and text color later. Etienne ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Tue Apr 25 14:12:30 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:12:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C33F@es05-hou.bmc.com> Greetings one and all! Applications are being taken for the officer to maintain the COH web page. Also, I have put the "new" COH Web page in place. There are still some links that are not active and it still points to the same stuff the old page does. The updates for the information will happen over the next couple of weeks. If you want to help, let me know. If you want to look at the old page it can be accessed at http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/oldpage.html --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 2:19 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Pretty clearly nobody, especially the Achievements links. --Alisandre Chris Backus wrote: > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Wed Apr 26 15:03:52 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:03:52 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Reservations at KWHS Message-ID: OK Gang! I need to get some info from you all. I am not sending this e-mail out to the Knowne World, as I am only looking for an estimate. For Knowne World Heraldic Symposium, Westgate will be required to 'guarantee' a number of the dorm rooms at Rice U., in a week or so, and I have not been swamped with pre-registrations (only 7 so far). So wanted to get an idea of how many of you are *planning seriously* to attend, how many will be staying in the dorms with linens, and how many meals you will buy. Please let me know following, so I can plan accordingly. Think of this as a mini-registration (non-binding). Thanks, Hillary Greenslade (PS. if you have already sent reservation, don't need to respond.) Sample: KNOWNE WORLD HERALDIC SYMPOSIUM SCA Name/branch: Hillary Greenslade/Westgate Dorms: Fri yes Sat yes linens rental: yes Meals: Frid (dinner) yes Sat (Bkfst) no Sat (lunch) yes Sat (dinner) yes Sun(Bkfst) no Sun(lunch) yes ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Fitzmorgan at cs.com Wed Apr 26 21:21:33 2000 From: Fitzmorgan at cs.com (Fitzmorgan at cs.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:21:33 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - A bit of Ansteorran History Message-ID: <28.4d370cc.26391a4d@cs.com> Greetings from Robert Fitzmorgan Acting Herald of Northkeep I've had an interesting evening. Lord Etienne de St. Amaranth and I were transfering the files of the Heralds office and were looking through them to see what was what when we dropped through a hole into history. We found a notebook full of reports from the Ansteorran College of Heralds from Principality days through the first years of our kingdom. As I write I am looking at a report from the first meeting of the C of H of the Kingdom of Ansteorra, held at the Coronation of Oueen Willow. In this meeting they acccept the submitted arms for the "Kingdom/King of Ansteorra" as well as the arms for the Barony of Bryn Gwlad and the SHIRE of Namron. They also rejected the name of Nord aus das Strom, now known as Northkeep. This was followed by a discussion of the state of heraldry in the kingdom. At the meeting held at the second crown tourney they accept the badges for many of the awards of our Kingdom as well as arms for the Queen. In this meeting they also register arms for some who would rise to promanance in our kingdoms history. Such as: Tivar Moondragon. Sif Ironhand and Burke Kyriell MacDonald. I found an Order of Precedence from 22 February 1978 and an update to it that isn't dated but lists the following: THEGN TO ANSTEORRA Erasimierz Waspanieski 4 March 78 Clare RosMuire St. John 4 March 78 Tessa of the Gardens 4 March 78 Simon of Amber, called Mountaingate 4 March 78 Andeleon du Axegarth 4 March 78 Gwylym y Fferill-o-Caer Lleuad 4 March 78 Balthazar of Endor 5 March 78 S'Utcha ta Nuit, Neb, Meri en Heh, aka Lord Michael of the Valar Protectorate of Ragnarok 5 March 78 I've never heard of the Thegns of Ansteorra before. What was it? I've heard of a few of these people but most of these names are new to me. Who were they and what did they do to deserve this honor? Can anyone tell me anything about the "ORDER OF DUCT TAPE DERVISHES"? I'd really like to hear some stories from the early days of our kingdom. Can anyone tell me if Star Principal and the kingdom historian still have copies of these files? I've only begun to look through these files myself but there seemes to be a lot of history here. Robert Fitzmorgan Barony of Northkeep ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From nweders at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 27 06:47:00 2000 From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (N.D. Wederstrandt) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:47:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - V1 #404 - Thegns In-Reply-To: <200004270500.AAA14115@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:21:33 EDT >From: Fitzmorgan at cs.com I found an Order of Precedence from 22 February 1978 and an update to it >that isn't dated but lists the following: > >THEGN TO ANSTEORRA > >Erasimierz Waspanieski 4 March 78 >Clare RosMuire St. John 4 March 78 >Tessa of the Gardens 4 March 78 >Simon of Amber, called Mountaingate 4 March 78 >Andeleon du Axegarth 4 March 78 >Gwylym y Fferill-o-Caer Lleuad 4 March 78 >Balthazar of Endor 5 March 78 >S'Utcha ta Nuit, Neb, Meri en Heh, aka Lord Michael of the Valar >Protectorate of Ragnarok 5 March 78 > > I've never heard of the Thegns of Ansteorra before. What was it? I've >heard of a few of these people but most of these names are new to me. Who >were they and what did they do to deserve this honor? Clare here with a few notes about Thegns... The full title was Ring Thegns of Ansteorra and the award was based on the Anglo-Saxonish tradition of bestowing Armrings to people from the Crown. The insignia for the award was a ring about 4 in across that people chose to disply worked into their belt.. It was given by the Prince an dPrncess to people who had given them support. similar to the King's Gauntlet an dthe Queen's Glove. Ansteorra was given an Anglo-Saxonish type persona if that makes sense. I'm not sure which persons you'd like information on but I'm happy to provide you with anything you have questions... Order of the Duct Tape Dervishes was given mostly as a humourous award... The insignia was a wad of duct tape suspended from a cord of duct tape. It had something to do with fighting.... > I'd really like to hear some stories from the early days of our kingdom. If you ask I can give you stories... some based on heraldry. But like old people if you want something specific I can try to respond by specifics. If not you get tired old ones..... (grin) Clare RosMuire St. John who has been lurking awhile... ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Thu Apr 27 12:59:43 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:59:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Prizes for KWHS Message-ID: We need prizes for the games at Knowne World Heraldic Symposium! If you have anything to contribute (think books, heraldic or scribal supplies, SCA goodies in general), then please track me down and pass these items along. I am planning to be at the following event schedule. (Sorry, this is mostly in the southern areas of kingdom..oh well). 4/29 Assembly of the Contrade Stargate 5/13 Loch Soillier Guardian Loch Soillier 5/20 Day at the Forum Raven's Fort 5/27 Steppes Warlord (Sat only) Steppes 6/3 Midsummer Fair Gates Edge 6/10 Kingdom Warlord (maybe) Bordermarch 6/17 Kings College Stonebridge Keep ** 6/24 Knowne World Heraldic (duh!) Westgate Else, pass them along to any other Stargater that will pass the prizes along to me...Kathri, Francois, Othar, Baron Michael Silverhands, etc.... Thanks, Hillary Greenslade KWHS Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 28 10:23:40 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:23:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: armory check In-Reply-To: <000901bfb0a8$611c4460$0201a8c6@eirik> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Eirik asked me for a conflict check for > Per pale dovetailed azure and or a decresent argent and a mullet of > 5 points azure. It's perfectly fine to send such requests to the Ansteorran Heralds list, or SCA Heralds. I'm sending this to Anst. Her. to liven it up. Mullets are of 5 points by default. It doesn't hurt to specify it just to be sure, but it'll get stripped before going up. The SCA standard blazon is Per pale dovetailed azure and or, a decrescent argent and a mullet azure. Search strategy: It's an uncommon field. I looked in Field division - Per pale - Azure - and or There's only one "dovetailed" with "per pale", Edward d'Orleans, and he's clear (type and number). (I searched the page in Netscape via ctrl-F, for "dove".) I happened to discuss dovetailed and other complex lines of division on SCA Heralds recently, so I had a chart. I also searched some precedents. Dovetailed gets no CD from raguly, embattled, or embattled variants like "bretessed" (or I presume "counter-embattled"). Bu no "per pale" raguly or embattled either. Thus, against any registered coat anywhere in the Ordinary, we get 1 CD for the field. Thus, anything else has to be heraldically identical. That makes searching MUCH easier. In particular, I can look either at crescents or mullets, but don't have to check both. I went to Mullet - Uncharged - 1 - Azure Any charging, change of number, or change of tincture would get us the second CD needed to clear it, so this is the only category I had to check. I then used Netscape ctrl-F to look for "cres", because I can't think of anything that looks like a crescent that wouldn't have "cres" in the spelling. Only 5 items matched, no conflicts. Come to think of it, mullets can have complicated conflicts too. Some mullets get no CD from others. From a previous chart, Mullet of 3 points: illegal of 4 points versus caltrop: no CD (identical) compass star: no CD (long rays in same places) mullet of 5 pnoints: no CD of 5 points versus estoile: CD sun: CD mullet of 6 points: no CD mullet of 7 points: no CD mullet of 8 points: CD compass star: CD et cetera. However, the Ordinary category doesn't distinguish by number of points. Even "Compass star" says simply "see Mullet". So we picked up all cases. However, just to be surely paranoid, I popped over to Crescent - 1 - Argent - Decrescent (120 items) and searched for "mull". About 20 coats with both. No prob that I saw. Looks clear all around. Style comments: cliched Typical SCA. (At least the mullet isn't within and conjoined to the decrescent -- more TSCA, but at least then there's a chance of conflict with the Turkish and Singaporian flags.) - "Dovetailed" is a post-period invention. The only reason it's registerable is because it's specifically listed in the Rules for Submission as an example of non-period items that have nevertheless been registered for long enough in the SCA that Laurel has ruled them SCA-compatible. I'd normally suggest just "embattled" (that has the virtue of not having to be conflict-checked, and at least there were rare cases in period), but the rest of the design is so TSCA that I'd rather ask the client whether they would be amenable to a complete redesign. - "Per pale " is, in some cases, a hack to avoid "appearance of marshalling". That appearance is exacerbated by - "Per pale" between two different charges, especially in two different tinctures. Cliche. - Decrescent. Crescents, "U", were common in period. Decrescents and increscents were very rare at best. Mind you, a mullet is a common period charge, whether of 5 or 6 points. Often they were "pierced", with a little hole in the center -- an artistic treatment called a "spur rowel", but not worth a CD. Crescents, as I pointed out, are great. Lots of fine period style designs could be made with them both. A field semy of mullets, a crescent. A field semy of crescents, a mullet. A crescent charged with a mullet; "three crescents each charged with a spur rowel" I can date to about 1300. "A crescent and on a chief two spur-rowels" -- another design I can date to about 1300. HOWEVER. I should make it clear that the client's design appears registerable. Furthermore, the client has to live with the final results of whatever they register -- *I* don't have to deal with it but once, to conflict-check it. The ideas in the previous paragraph are just SUGGESTIONS in case the client is amenable. If the client has their heart set on Their Design, so be it. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 07:40:45 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:40:45 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000428144046.44446.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings! I was hoping I could get some help since I am very new to the heraldry (I am still "acting" as it is). The populace of the canton of Glaslyn voted on and accepted by majority a new design for a device which they would like to replace the current one. First, the history on this decision. Glaslyn has been around since the early '80's and has died and revived many times since. At the present moment, it has a good strong core and is faring better than ever (we are even finally losing our incipient status soon). While the populace did not mind the name, they felt the current device was something to which they feel close nor did they want fly it any longer. After a few drawings were made, we had our vote and a new one was picked. I know I should contact our baronial herald for the device, but, more on a kingdom level, what must be done for us to change our device? In other words, are there any specific procedures I must follow in doing this? Any help is appreciated. Godspeed, Cyniric Cyniwarding, hyrnboda Glaslynes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Mohun1066 at aol.com Fri Apr 28 08:50:06 2000 From: Mohun1066 at aol.com (Mohun1066 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:50:06 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - ATTN: Viking Exhibition Message-ID: <61.31469f6.263b0d2e@aol.com> There is a Viking exhibition at the Smithsonian now which will be touring the country. It will be coming to the Houston Museum of Natural History, July 13, 2001 to Oct. 11, 2001. I know it is a bit early to prepare, but thought I would pass it along. Website-http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/ Griffin ap Rhys (not a Viking but I am sure my persona would have been terrified of them). ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 28 10:21:55 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <200004281721.MAA01504@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric Cyniwarding / "Richard Culver" wrote: > The populace of the canton of Glaslyn voted on and accepted by > majority a new design for a device which they would like to replace > the current one. I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. Did they consult with experienced heralds before getting designs? Mind you, I'm not saying anything about Glaslyn in particular. I don't know anything about Glaslyn (except that it's a canton of the Steppes, and I have a vague memory of consulting about something last Warlord). It's just that SCA groups are some of the worst perpetrators of cliches and non-period-but- registerable things. A single submitter you may be able to convince to go with better style. Once a group decides that their design "sings" and "resonates", it's like trying to convince musk oxen. As a general call to all: before working on group names or arms, please consult with experienced heralds who may be able to advise on period style and registerability before the group settles on the SCA standard of wretchedness. > I know I should contact our baronial herald for the device, In the sense that he (Erc, I think?) is your boss so you have to report to him on heraldic activity, but there's no *requirement* to get him to sign off on anything. > but, more on a kingdom level, what must be done for us to change our > device? In other words, are there any specific procedures I must > follow in doing this? Kingdom isn't involved with this either, any more than any other device change. Step 0: reply to this note and give us a blazon or plain-English description of the arms. We can comment on style issues, maybe find a conflict, et cetera. Step 1: go to the Free Trumpet Press West webpage at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/ftpw/ and order paper copies of SCA Rules for Submissions, Admin. Handbook, Alt. Titles List, Glossary (item FT-43B), for a mere $6. Get a notebook binder ready for when it arrives, so you can answer rules questions wherever you take it. Step 2: While you're waiting for the order to arrive, bookmark and go to http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/regs.html , the Web page that links to the HTML versions of the RfS, AH, Alternate Titles, and CoA Glossary. Step 3: go to the Admin Handbook. Read it once all the way thru, but I didn't retain much any of the times I've done it, so I expect you won't either. That's just to give you an idea of what's in there, so when such a question arises, the back of your mind may tickle you and hint that this is the place to look. In general but with exceptions, the Admin Handbook tells you how to proceed on various things, and the RfS tells you about the registerable style of any particular item. Step 4: Go back to the Admin Handbook, and re-read with more attention II (Registerable Items) D (Tinctured Armory) 2 (Branch Arms): gotta have at least one laurel wreath IV (General Procedures for Submissions) C (Completed Paperwork) 5 (Evidence of Support) "Submissions involving the name or arms of an active branch must include evidence of support for the action on the part of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least three-quarters of the other local officers. In the case of branches with ruling nobles, such petitions must also include a statement of support from the ruling noble. ... Branch badge(s), order or award names, and other Branch names (such as names for guilds, Herald's Titles in the case of Kingdom, etc.) do not require support at the Laurel level. Kingdom may require it if they so desire, for their internal procedures." (Note: it's a really good idea to get the canton's approval for any badges or guild names -- a canton can't have awards or orders -- regardless of whether it's required or not.) As to how to demonstrate group approval: I don't think you should go the officers-only route; this is something to get everyone in on. Get a sheet of paper with lines for signatures. Put at the top something like "We, the undersigned, are members of the populace of the Canton of Glaslyn. We support the change of the canton arms to be [blazon], as emblazoned in the margin." Get someone to draw a line drawing of the proposed arms on the sheet, with enough detail that everyone knows what they're approving, but with enough room for enough signatures. Copy this master sheet a few times (just to provide enough lines for everyone), and color in the line drawings so people know the colors too. Don't get the boilerplate on each page be *too* big. Kingdom and Laurel are completely unimpressed by fancy calligraphy or large words, especially if that means there's only room for two signatures per page and hence a 15-page petition. Double-sided copying is your friend. Might as well have the seneschal or herald certify that it's indeed a majority of the populace. I can't think of a good way to word it right now, because the Admin Handbook leaves "populace" undefined and it's lunchtime. As for your barony. I think Laurel would not say that a canton has a "ruling noble" or not. The *barony* has a ruling noble. The *canton* is itself a branch just like any other branch. Corpora just says kingdoms can allow other local group types. Kingdom law ( http://www.ansteorra.org/publications/law/kingdom_law.html ) says that a canton is "under the protection of a Barony" and "Branches under the protection of a Barony or Province shall report both to the designated Kingdom level superior and to the protecting branches [sic] officers". That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. Especially, a new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more than $10,000 in their treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) Especially because I bet the barony won't particularly *care* about this. The canton herald and/or seneschal should go to the next baronial meeting (some Tuesday night at La Madeleine, right?), and report. Predicted skeleton dialog: Glaslyn: We're planning to change the Glaslyn coat of arms. This is the design we've approved by vote. Someone: Have the heralds looked it over? Glaslyn: Yes. They say it's registerable. Everyone: Sounds good. Glaslyn: Can we get Your Excellencies to sign the petition of support? [flourish the petition and a pen.] Baron and baroness: Sure. Glad to. (You *do* carry at least one pen wherever you go? I docked people one point each at the Court From Hell competition because they didn't.) The sheet may be the one with the seneschal/herald's certification of a majority. You might glitz it up with signature spaces labelled "Baron, Lord, and Protector of the Canton" and "Baroness, Lady, and Protector of the Canton"; maybe Fritz and Kitrin will be tickled by the glitz, I dunno. By the way: Laurel will not be picky about the wording; the above is a reasonable suggestion. There's a Laurel precedent from Bruce to the effect of This group submission had a sheet attached labelled only "Petition" and with a list of signatures. For all I know, it was a petition to serve ice cream at fighter practice. I'm going to assume they're honorable and give them the benefit of the doubt. However, in the future, please indicate on the petition *what* you're petitioning for. The color version is just to make sure everyone knows. I don't think Laurel has ever really looked for a certification of the results, but heck, why not cross the Ts and dot the Is beyond all question? Any other questions? Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Fri Apr 28 15:20:27 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:20:27 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <65.39ab413.263b68ab@aol.com> Are these the changes that Wolf spoke to me about at the Coronation? Donnel ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Fri Apr 28 15:26:17 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:26:17 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <13.48bed91.263b6a09@aol.com> I hope you have all this saved so the next time all you have to do is cut and past. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sat Apr 29 09:26:08 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <200004281721.MAA01504@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: By the way, I see no particular reason for anyone to save my previous message. Groups take or change names or arms so rarely. If you just remember that the Admin Handbook has rules, and remember to look for the word "support" (case-insensitive, first occurrence) or "petition" (the same), you'll find the #1 cause for failure: "Draw the populace poll larger". Or simply remember to call your regional for advice. OK, the biggest piece of advice: also remember to conflict-check and get style notes on the designs BEFORE the group votes on them. On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > "Submissions involving the name or arms of an active branch > must include evidence of support for the action on the part > of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the > case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be > demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and > officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least > three-quarters of the other local officers. ... > Might as well have the seneschal or herald certify that it's indeed > a majority of the populace. I can't think of a good way to word it > right now, because the Admin Handbook leaves "populace" undefined > and it's lunchtime. I've chewed my lunch and my words. It occurs to me that you ought to go both ways (suppress the peanut gallery). You can certainly tell when you have the seneschal + 3/4 of the other officers. Nevertheless, I'd go for the populace too, for group solidarity reasons: bring the petition to fighter practice, the canton meeting, wherever the group meets, to make a good-faith effort to count and invite everyone. Then the seneschal or herald can certify that the officer requirement is met, and also that a majority of the populace supports it too. "But, Daniel, aren't you being anal retentive?" - What, like that's new? - Changing the group arms and name are not done lightly. - Getting more people involved in this case makes the group work better. - Taking pains now means the rest of the process flows smoothly. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 08:53:50 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:53:50 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429155350.82188.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. Are you always so optimistic? Did they consult with >experienced heralds before getting designs? Our seneschal, Centurion Airaklee Wolf, said he ran it by some herald however I currently do not recall the name. The rough loine drawing is on our site at www.glaslyn.org. Mind you, I'm not saying >anything about Glaslyn in particular. I don't know anything about >Glaslyn (except that it's a canton of the Steppes, and I have a vague >memory of consulting about something last Warlord). It's just that >SCA groups are some of the worst perpetrators of cliches and >non-period-but- registerable things. A single submitter you may be >able to convince to go with better style. Once a group decides that >their design "sings" and "resonates", it's like trying to convince >musk oxen. Well I do not know about this. I do know it is the opinion of the majority of the canton (three times the votes of the second closest design) and they feel it represents them. If it does not work, there was really no harm in trying. Glaslyn is a good group and is not nearly as full of itself as some might be. > >Step 0: reply to this note and give us a blazon or plain-English >description of the arms. We can comment on style issues, maybe find a >conflict, et cetera. Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. >As to how to demonstrate group approval: I don't think you should go >the officers-only route; this is something to get everyone in on. Get >a sheet of paper with lines for signatures. Put at the top something >like "We, the undersigned, are members of the populace of the Canton >of Glaslyn. We support the change of the canton arms to be [blazon], >as emblazoned in the margin." This was how I would have planned it anyway. It was the poulace who voted on it. The officers support it too (even if it beat mine). Get someone to draw a line drawing of >the proposed arms on the sheet, with enough detail that everyone knows >what they're approving, but with enough room for enough signatures. >Copy this master sheet a few times (just to provide enough lines for >everyone), and color in the line drawings so people know the colors >too. Don't get the boilerplate on each page be *too* big. >Kingdom and Laurel are completely unimpressed by fancy calligraphy or >large words, especially if that means there's only room for two >signatures per page and hence a 15-page petition. Double-sided >copying is your friend. Okay, we happen to be associated with a very talented artist. We can do. > >That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. Especially, a >new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more than $10,000 in their >treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) Well, that is one of the many labels given Glaslyn over the years, but we feel rational enough. We had no intention of pissing off the barony. If I remember correctly, we had mentioned this to their Excellencies previously. Our two groups had not always felt so strongly about one another in the past, but we are working on it now. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 08:57:03 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:57:03 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429155705.59499.qmail@hotmail.com> >Are these the changes that Wolf spoke to me about at the Coronation? > >Donnel Quite possibly. You must be the name I cannot remember. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 09:39:30 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:39:30 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429163930.87285.qmail@hotmail.com> > Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: > > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a >fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All >gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. Think maybe "counterCHANGED" was what I was thinking. Regardless, we essentially want yellow on the viewers left, red on the viewers right, and the contrasting color for the charges according to on what side they are. I also forgot the phoenix is maintaing and within the wreath, as if it encircles it. I hope I was able to convey the general idea. Again checkout www.glaslyn.org/device.html . Thanks for the help, Cyniric Cyniwarding (who really prefers name research) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 01:15:22 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:15:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000429155350.82188.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. > > Are you always so optimistic? Of course. There's an attitude on alt.sysadmin.recovery that all software sucks (just some sucks worse than others), all hardware sucks, all (l)users suck, work sucks, life sucks, everything sucks. Get to be an old used herald and a similar attitude can seep in. It's not to the point of needing bourbon to get thru an ILoI, though. Coca-cola, though, that's a necessity. > Okay, we happen to be associated with a very talented artist. We > can do. Do they have experience with heraldic art in particular? Heraldic art has its own conventions and stylizations. For example, naturalistic lions and landscapes are great in tapestries and paintings (hep me, hep me, I been Branwynized!), but aren't good in heraldry. > >That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. > >Especially, a new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more > >than $10,000 in their treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) > > Well, that is one of the many labels given Glaslyn over the years, > but we feel rational enough. Ack! but that was unskillfully written! What I *meant*: If you ever *did do* something that pissed off the Steppes, my reaction *would then be* "Are you guys nuts?". > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel > wreath, a fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief > three rings. All gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. As you mentioned in another note, I looked at http://www.glaslyn.org/device.html which is an outline drawing. If I understand you correctly: the tinctures are divided down the middle; the viewer's left half of the design ("dexter") is gold, with all the things on it red, and the viewer's right half has a red background and everything on it gold? If so, I'd blazon the drawing Per pale gules and Or, a bird displayed in annulo between two sprigs of laurel, a point pointed of flame [proper?], in chief three annulets, all counterchanged. Hrm. Hrm. The sketch can be improved, but I see several possible killer problems. Bruce Draconarius of Mistholm and Akagawa Yoshio, _A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry / as Used in the SCA_, 2nd ed. -- the "Pic Dic" for short -- is available in your area. You can get a copy from Free Trumpet Press West, and I strongly advise you or your group to get it; it's extremely helpful for the SCA herald. Oakenwald (the pursuivant of the Steppes), Da'ud, Adelicia or Tadhg, other Steppers, Elfseers, et cetera, should all have copies you can look at. When looking at arms in period, the charges were sometimes small and were stylized. How did you tell what kind of bird it was? Answer: it had standard attributes. For example, you could tell that such-and-so was a hawk because it was "close" (wings held against its body, facing to dexter), and because it usually had a hawk's hood, jesses, and/or bells on it. If it was displayed, it was an eagle, even though the body was very similar to the hawk's. If it was close, head facing the viewer ("guardant"), and had a big head and eyes, it was an owl. If it was skinny, "close", and held a stone in one long leg, it was a crane. If it was close but had hairy feathers, it was a crow. Und so weider. The legend of the phoenix has the phoenix burning itself and being renewed from the ashes. (Christians adopted the symbol for that reason.) The Pic Dic depiction (item 563) has the tail, the lowermost body, and about to start on the wings in flames. All the phoenices I've seen had had part of the bird burning. I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why I blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". It looks like "a point pointed of flame". A "point pointed" (item 574) is when the bottom part of the shield is covered by a sort of diamond-shaped area. The flames here are as a straight-sided point pointed. (Furthermore, there are little drops of flame in the larger flame, which makes me wonder if "flame proper" was intended. This wouldn't be a correct depiction, mind you: flames proper are alternating tongues of red and gold flames.) Killer problem: Precedents of Da'ud (second tenure, second year), under Flames: The sinister half of the tree is not really "flaming", but is rather "of flames". We have not allowed charges of flame for quite some time. Additionally most of the commenters noted that counterchanging a charge, half of which is proper, does not appear to have any period or modern exemplars. .... (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR July 1994, p. 11) Another possible killer: charges that blur the distinction between two distinct types of charge are returned. For example, a horse is a horse, of course, of course. A unicorn has a goat-ish body with a lion's tail and a horn. A "unicornate horse" has a horse's body with a horn. It's returned for blurring the distinction between two things that get a difference. I would argue that a bird there and flame over there blurs the distinction between a phoenix and other birds, and is cause for return. Another possible killer: with half-Or half-gules everything swappiedoodle, it's gonna look visually complex. There is a rule, VIII.3, Armorial Identifiability - Elements must be used in a design so as to preserve their individual identifiability. Identifiable elements may be rendered unidentifiable by significant reduction in size, marginal contrast, excessive counterchanging, ... I've just printed it and colored it. I think it's still identifiable, because it's a simple line of division with a bilaterally-symmetric design. However, I can see others arguing that it's too much. There are other artistic problems, but they can be fixed by just redrawing. The bird outline mostly looks like a modern Japanese crane. The Pic Dic and Parker (N.B.: I do NOT recommend looking up the Seymour badge emblazonin Parker. That is one truly lousy-looking phoenix -- Victorian, maybe?) agree that the phoenix resembles an eagle. The Pic Dic says that it has a crest. The bird on the Glaslyn page doesn't have a raptor beak, a heraldic eagle's ruffled feathers or distinct large feathers. Another precedent: The laurel wreath needs a redraw, to look more like a laurel wreath, which should be circular in shape. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR December 1998, p. 17) The depiction has, not a wreath, but "two sprigs of laurel", and would be returned for lacking a laurel wreath. I think the leaves should be larger and ovoid. The Texas state seal has one of its sprigs being of laurel; that can be a model for the leaves. The invaluable Pic Dic has a picture too. So, how to fix it? First, I'd make it a real phoenix enflamed. (Or an eagle and leave off the flame, but given the story we heard, I suspect Glaslyn wants the "rebirth" notion.) It'd be a bird with flame around the bottom. The laurel wreath has to grow anyway; it'd have to expand out a bit more to accomodate the pheonix. I'd also ask the group whether the "per pale counterchanged" was significant to them, or whether it was just done to avoid conflict or something -- would they consider Or field-gules charges or gules field-Or charges to be just as good? Has the group considered replacing the three annulets with three laurel wreaths (getting rid of the large one)? "A charge within a wreath" is an SCA cliche hardly ever done in period, tho it's understandable why, given the verdammt required laurel wreath. Doing three wreaths instead of three annulets allows the phoenix to expand more. I don't think that makes it harder to draw: true, there are more wreaths, but each is smaller, so you can do a few leaves on each; further, you may be able to stencil. (In conflict-checking terms, it also makes the design "simple" according to X.2, which makes conflict-checking a bit easier and decreases the chance of conflict.) I wonder whether Glaslyn would like a few heralds from Elfsea and the Steppes to come up and consult with a populace meeting? Some questions ought to be answered first, so the "road trippers" can come prepared with suggestions that are likely to be amenable to the group. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Sat Apr 29 13:22:05 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:22:05 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/00 11:41:03 AM Central Daylight Time, rbculver at hotmail.com writes: << Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: > > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a >fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All >gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. Think maybe "counterCHANGED" was what I was thinking. Regardless, we essentially want yellow on the viewers left, red on the viewers right, and the contrasting color for the charges according to on what side they are. I also forgot the phoenix is maintaing and within the wreath, as if it encircles it. I hope I was able to convey the general idea. Again checkout www.glaslyn.org/device.html . Thanks for the help, Cyniric Cyniwarding (who really prefers name research) OK I have looked at it. The flames at the bottom need to be bigger instead of the small little tongues of fire. That is from a banner makers point of view. Try appliqueing them. Looks good to me. Donnel PS I am fwding this on to Aarron. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:55:01 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:55:01 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> >Do they have experience with heraldic art in particular? Heraldic art >has its own conventions and stylizations. For example, naturalistic >lions and landscapes are great in tapestries and paintings (hep me, >hep me, I been Branwynized!), but aren't good in heraldry. I believe she does. She drew her sister-in-laws device and I think one or two others without much complaint. >If I understand you correctly: the tinctures are divided down the >middle; the viewer's left half of the design ("dexter") is gold, with >all the things on it red, and the viewer's right half has a red >background and everything on it gold? If so, I'd blazon the drawing > Per pale gules and Or, a bird displayed in annulo between two > sprigs of laurel, a point pointed of flame [proper?], in chief > three annulets, all counterchanged. That sound like it. >Bruce Draconarius of Mistholm and Akagawa Yoshio, _A Pictorial >Dictionary of Heraldry / as Used in the SCA_, 2nd ed. -- the "Pic Dic" >for short -- is available in your area. I will have to confer with other heralds around here. I am not in the position right now to order much of sqwat. >The legend of the phoenix has the phoenix burning itself and being >renewed from the ashes. (Christians adopted the symbol for that >reason.) The Pic Dic depiction (item 563) has the tail, the lowermost >body, and about to start on the wings in flames. All the phoenices >I've seen had had part of the bird burning. >I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was >down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why I >blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". To make the bird burning, would we have to remove the flame in the base? >It looks like "a point pointed of flame". A "point pointed" (item >574) is when the bottom part of the shield is covered by a sort of >diamond-shaped area. The flames here are as a straight-sided point >pointed. (Furthermore, there are little drops of flame in the larger >flame, which makes me wonder if "flame proper" was intended. This >wouldn't be a correct depiction, mind you: flames proper are >alternating tongues of red and gold flames.) We wanted to flame gules, not proper. >Killer problem: Precedents of Da'ud (second tenure, second year), >under Flames: > The sinister half of the tree is not really "flaming", but is > rather "of flames". We have not allowed charges of flame for > quite some time. Additionally most of the commenters noted that > counterchanging a charge, half of which is proper, does not appear > to have any period or modern exemplars. .... (Da'ud ibn Auda, > LoAR July 1994, p. 11) See above about proper vs. gules. >Another possible killer: charges that blur the distinction between two >distinct types of charge are returned. For example, a horse is a >horse, of course, of course. A unicorn has a goat-ish body with a >lion's tail and a horn. A "unicornate horse" has a horse's body with >a horn. It's returned for blurring the distinction between two things >that get a difference. I would argue that a bird there and flame over >there blurs the distinction between a phoenix and other birds, and is >cause for return. Can the phoenix be aflame and still be above the fire? >Another possible killer: with half-Or half-gules everything >swappiedoodle, it's gonna look visually complex. There is a rule, >VIII.3, I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want for my personal device are banned. :( >There are other artistic problems, but they can be fixed by just >redrawing. The bird outline mostly looks like a modern Japanese >crane. That would be because the student who drew it happens to be a Japanese persona. He just drew what he was familar with. It was intend to be just a rough sketch anyway. >Another precedent: > The laurel wreath needs a redraw, to look more like a laurel > wreath, which should be circular in shape. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR > December 1998, p. 17) >The depiction has, not a wreath, but "two sprigs of laurel", and would >be returned for lacking a laurel wreath. I think the leaves should be >larger and ovoid. The Texas state seal has one of its sprigs being of >laurel; that can be a model for the leaves. The invaluable Pic Dic >has a picture too. I think we would be willing to redraw that. I had it pictured in my mind as encircling the bird anyway. > >So, how to fix it? First, I'd make it a real phoenix enflamed. (Or >an eagle and leave off the flame, but given the story we heard, I >suspect Glaslyn wants the "rebirth" notion.) It'd be a bird with >flame around the bottom. The laurel wreath has to grow anyway; it'd >have to expand out a bit more to accomodate the pheonix. Okay. I will run it by the folk and ee what they say. >I'd also ask the group whether the "per pale counterchanged" was >significant to them, or whether it was just done to avoid conflict or >something -- would they consider Or field-gules charges or >gules field-Or charges to be just as good? Our "device contest", as it were, was essentially coloring in the black and white on the website. There were Or field-gules charge and vice verse option colored but the per pale won by landslide. I would like to keep it if possible. >Has the group considered replacing the three annulets with three >laurel wreaths (getting rid of the large one)? Originally the rings had a meaning. It however may have been lost since the original idea sprouted. I will certainly ask about it. >I wonder whether Glaslyn would like a few heralds from Elfsea and the >Steppes to come up and consult with a populace meeting? Some >questions ought to be answered first, so the "road trippers" can come >prepared with suggestions that are likely to be amenable to the >group. That would probably be a great idea. I will pass it on to Wolf and see when we can get it in. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:57:26 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:57:26 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430015726.93492.qmail@hotmail.com> > OK I have looked at it. The flames at the bottom need to be bigger >instead >of the small little tongues of fire. That is from a banner makers point of >view. Try appliqueing them. Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be there on the finished product. >Looks good to me. > >Donnel > >PS I am fwding this on to Aarron. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Sat Apr 29 22:31:58 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:31:58 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question Message-ID: <002601bfb265$751c6760$0200000a@kjohnson> Hello, Does someone have a quick source for William that doesn't need documentation. Don't you wish all questions were this easy :) Thanks Kendall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 09:37:12 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was > >down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why > >I blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". > > To make the bird burning, would we have to remove the flame in the > base? ... > Can the phoenix be aflame and still be above the fire? Your group wants a phoenix AND a separate flame? I assumed the flame was supposed to be part *of* the phoenix. Um, not to be critical, but isn't that sort of redundant? You can have "a flame" as a charge. It can't be done like it was drawn on the Web site. It has to be a flame as a charge. It doesn't have to be smooth like a candle flame, and actually probably shouldn't; it can be done with lots of tongue of flame, like a campfire without logs. But aside from redundancy, the design would get crowded with a bird AND a laurel wreath AND a flame AND three rings. That forces the bird to be pretty tiny. Small enough and all the charges might get ruled co-primary and the whole thing bounced for "slot machine" (too many different types of charges in the same group). > I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want > for my personal device are banned. :( Please feel free to send us a message (a new one with a different subject, not just a reply to this one, to avoid confusion) with a request for help. The rules are there for various purposes: - to cause SCA ehraldic practice to approach period practice - to have a rule set that's easy to learn and apply - to make the populace happy Unfortunately, those three forces tug the rules in different ways. In my experience, people hitting the rules repeatedly are trying to do non-period ideas. > There were Or field-gules charge and vice verse option colored but > the per pale won by landslide. I would like to keep it if possible. I still have my doubts ... > That would probably be a great idea. I will pass it on to Wolf and > see when we can get it in [roadtripping heralds] Gotta check with Steppes and Elfseaers too. There's this weird rash of weddings that's just broken out in the Steppes ... Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 09:44:43 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:44:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <002601bfb265$751c6760$0200000a@kjohnson> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > Does someone have a quick source for William that doesn't need > documentation. Um, a source for William *is* documentation. What did you think documentation was? Documentation is any justification for a practice. Further, William in what context -- language, culture, time frame? English? French? German? Scots? Irish Gaelic? Italian? Japanese? Further, William as given name, "middle name", surname, or what? Probably easiest if you tell us the full proposed name, and intended time, culture, and language, and let us vet the whole thing. > Don't you wish all questions were this easy :) "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all the text in an attachment. I had to get to the attachments page, get to the right one, display it with an external viewer, cut-and-paste your text, then back out of each of those levels. Please don't do that again. Just put the text in the body of the mail message. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Apr 29 22:23:40 2000 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy and Bill Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:23:40 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? References: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01bfb264$672adfc0$a8551f26@computer> Hokay, After consulting 7 different books about medieval concepts about the phoenix I know less than ever. For instance some sources made the phoenix purple, some rainbow or multicolored, and Herodotus said flame coloured. For this reason I would avoid the term proper. Since Queen Elizabeth used one as a badge, can anyone on the list find out what colour(s) she used? I seem to remember multicolored but the memory is very vague. Also a problem with the device, flame against a divided or and gules field gives insufficient contrast. Or at least Laurel has so held in the past. To save the per pale idea I would suggest either a purple or gold-coloured phoenix rising out of red and gold flames. Against a per pale background chosen to show the charge. (for instance against white and green) Three laurel wreaths in fess the chief in either gold or red. Or the laurel wreath in bordure counterchanged. If you want to go with the rainbow colored phoenix I would strongly suggest a single tincture for the field, in order to keep it easily recognized. I don't have a ordinary and armorial handy, which versions of the phoenix have already been used in branch arms? Mableth ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Apr 29 23:04:50 2000 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy and Bill Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:04:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? References: Message-ID: <003901bfb26a$2c4ec320$a8551f26@computer> Sorry for posting twice to the thread but I forgot to include this side comment. > > > I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want > > for my personal device are banned. :( > Cyniric, Do you mean banned as 'offensive to a significant portion of the population' or banned as in 'the stuff an early anglo-saxon would put on a shield is not registrable'? I ask for the following reason. If what your persona would put on his or her shield would not be heraldry then you can put it on your shield, just make sure that it can't be mistaken for heraldry. In your case I would start by making the center boss and the rim contrasting with the brown board (leather or wood). Add a couple of rivets/bolt heads and/or reinforcing bars. Then add the metal beast shapes or geometrics. If possible, try to make the rest of your armor similarly period. Don't paint the board. Red or white would be period but might make it look too much like a coat of arms. Most people will love you for doing this. A few will be outraged, especially if you catch them off guard. BE CAREFUL TO TELL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE FIRST. Consult with heralds experienced in device registration to avoid something that looks like a shield. Tell the fighters that you are recreating a period shield, they'll love it. Contact your local authenticity police, bribe them with documentation. If you do this correctly you will have most of the College of Arms protecting you against anyone else who might dispute your right to carry the shield, and virtually everyone else enthusiastically protecting you against any herald who might object to your shield. You will still get the occasional objection, but a little tact, and good documentation will easily carry you through. There are a few symbols used in Anglo-Saxon art that are banned because of later connections with the Nazis. To my knowledge none of them were used on shields. Most of the people who do the 'non-heraldic' shield bit eventually end up with a coat of arms, but only for use on banners, etc. I have a good reference on the Anglo-Saxon warrior, recently printed in England. If you would like me to xerox the pages on shields please email me at awmorris at flash.net with your mailing address. Mableth ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Sat Apr 29 23:05:35 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:05:35 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <55.53d3ae3.263d272f@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/00 8:58:37 PM Central Daylight Time, rbculver at hotmail.com writes: << Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be there on the finished product. >> Are you a student or a teacher? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 10:45:46 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:45:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: Kendall Johnson wrote to me personally, but I suspect meant it for the list: > Can someone tell me on what page William is listed in Withycombe's > Dictionary of christian names. Mr. Pedantic Person notes that it's _The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names_. It's a miracle nobody has soundly *THWAPPED* Mr. Pedantic Person for a while. William is on pp. 293-4 (3rd ed.). Dated spellings: Willelm, c. 1067 Willelmus, 1086, 1199-1220 Wilecoc, 1273 Wylymot, 1379 Gillet, Gillot(in), Gilliame, Guillot, 1306 Wyll, c. 1515 Gilow, Gylaw, 1379 Gilmyn, 1379 Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! Reaney and Wilson, _A Dictionary of English Surnames_, 3rd ed, p. 493, have Robertus filius Willelmi, 1086 Richard William, 1279 John Wylyam, 1296 Rauf le fuiz William, 1299 Henry Fitz William, 1300 Ralph Willem, Willeam, 1304 ... Thomas William, 1327 R&W is fine as a source for given names in given-name positions. For example, those citations above are great for the spellings Richard, John, Henry, Ralph, and Thomas. An apparent given name in a surname position is dicier. For example, the first example is probably in the genitive case or something. However, where the surname is derived from a given name, and the name appears not to have been "mutated" in some way, I think you're on pretty reasonable grounds. (By "mutation", I refer to changes like "Williamson" (or "Williams", which means the same thing.) So (assuming the client wants "William" in that exact spelling), I'd write it as William: Withycombe (3rd ed., pp. 293-4) says it was introduced to England by the Normans and has been popular to the present time. Reaney and Wilson (3rd ed., p. 493, under Williams) date this spelling as a given name from 1279. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 11:12:47 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:12:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <002a01bfb264$672adfc0$a8551f26@computer> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Amy and Bill Morris wrote about phoenices proper. I'm so sorry to put you to all that work! I dropped a "[proper?]" in the middle of my proposed blazon to refer to the *flames*, and forgot that it would apply to previous charges! No, I don't expect phoenices to have a proper tincture. Offhand, I can't think of *any* monster with a defined "proper". I recall hearing that the English College of Arms once had a client request a griffin proper; someone suggested that the proper tincture for a mythical beast was "invisible", but that the client ought to be charged the full fee by the herald painter for "painting" it. The phoenix simply has to be blazoned as being of some specific tincture or tinctures. It has also been clarified that the flame was not supposed to be proper, but rather counterchanged as well. > To save the per pale idea Not sure what needs saving, unless it be due to the "excessive counterchanging" possibility. All other colors show up well against gules and metal, so if the group wanted azure or sable charges, it would show up pretty well. (I'm not sure you could do consistent metal or color for all three annulets: one of the annulets would therefore end up metal-on-metal or color-on-color.) I would not recommend purpure or vert (purple or green). They were very much rarer than the other colors (purpure a little more common in Iberia), and usually only done in simple designs. > Or the laurel wreath in bordure Cause for return. Wreathes are circular. (I meant it!) In past times, there has been registered what we'd call "a wreath in bordure", or "two sprigs of laurel, tips crossed in saltire", or other mutations. We've gotten stricter since. The laurel wreath is emblazoned as lying as on a bordure', which has been disallowed for some time now. Please let them know that laurel wreaths are nearly circular in shape, and cannot follow the line of a bordure or orle. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR December 1998, p. 14) > I don't have a ordinary and armorial handy, which versions of the > phoenix have already been used in branch arms? What do you mean, "which version"? If you mean "what tinctures": argent argent, flames proper azure azure, flames argent and sable azure, flames azure and or azure, flames gules azure, flames proper azure, flames vert and or gules gules, flames proper or or, flames argent or, flames proper per bend sinister argent and sable per bend sinister or and sable per fess or and gules per fess sable and or per pale or and gules (alone on the field) purpure, flames sable (sort of: Bryan de Albengi) sable, flames gules I'm only up to names starting with D and I'm getting bored. The only new ones added in the Cs were pretty much some weird flaming for azure ones. Or phoenices are by far the most popular. The only "phoenix proper" ever registered was in 1979, but was reblazoned in 1982 to "a phoenix of flames ... proper". The latter motif has been registered a few times since. It is no longer registerable; see the precedent I quoted in an earlier message forbidding charges of flame. OK, Yrj? Kirjawiisas reg. in 1980 an "Egyptian phoenix proper", but it is listed as "[Ardea purpurea] ...BIRD:1:bird passant to sinister:eagle:proper:spna" and not monster, so that appears to be the common name for a real bird. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From culn97 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 30 01:09:11 2000 From: culn97 at yahoo.com (Rod Jackson) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: <20000430080911.28954.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Why THWAPP? I've been lurking and learning, though I do think you've been a little harsh. Maybe the Lynchburg Lemonade makes me more mellow. OK, you are hereby docked one chocolate ration. Cheers! Colin (oh, I like the fewer key strokes!) --- tmcd at jump.net wrote: > Kendall Johnson wrote to me > personally, but I suspect > meant it for the list: > (snippage) It's a miracle nobody has soundly *THWAPPED* Mr. Pedantic Person for a while. > (more snippage) ===== Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:06:40 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:06:40 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430210640.53750.qmail@hotmail.com> >Do you mean banned as 'offensive to a significant portion of the >population' >or banned as in 'the stuff an early anglo-saxon would put on a shield is >not >registrable'? Perhaps both, but more so the former. See below. I ask for the following reason. If what your persona would >put on his or her shield would not be heraldry then you can put it on your >shield, just make sure that it can't be mistaken for heraldry. In your >case >I would start by making the center boss and the rim contrasting with the >brown board (leather or wood). Add a couple of rivets/bolt heads and/or >reinforcing bars. Then add the metal beast shapes or geometrics. If >possible, try to make the rest of your armor similarly period. Don't paint >the board. Red or white would be period but might make it look too much >like a coat of arms. I have a center boss dress round (I cannot fight with a center grip due to a disqbility. That whole dropping your shield in battle thing does not sit well with me). I was planning on getting some metal and making beast for that. However we really do not have enough evidence to say what they did or did not put on their shields. Quite frankly as a gress shield I will put what I think I would as a Migration Age Angle. If I could get a hold of a Remo Fiberskyn 3 concert bass drum head, that would look good-just like rawhide but made of mylar (no weather problems). >Most people will love you for doing this. A few will be outraged, >especially if you catch them off guard. BE CAREFUL TO TELL AS MANY PEOPLE >AS POSSIBLE FIRST. Consult with heralds experienced in device >registration >to avoid something that looks like a shield. Tell the fighters that you >are >recreating a period shield, they'll love it. Contact your local >authenticity police, For early Angle stuff I _am_ the authenticity police. Finances are the only thing from doiung it as well as I wish. For fun I study Anglian dialects and Early English and its connections with the Danish penisula. >There are a few symbols used in Anglo-Saxon art that are banned because of >later connections with the Nazis. To my knowledge none of them were used >on >shields. This is exactly the part which chaps me. We are suppose to be an educational organization yet we hide research. I really hate being a slave to the actions of the 12 years of the Arrogant Austrian. The fylfot, to use the Middle English term, was used on weapons, burial urns, and other such things. I think at some point it ended up on a few shields, particularly in the heathen era which is in line with my persona. I would like to use the Eolhsecg/*elhaz-algiz rune as well but I am sure its modern association with the white supremist group the National Alliance would scrap that too. I know I cannot change anything but it is a pet peeve. I assure you other symbols have bad track records yet still are kept around. I makes it really hard to enjoy being period when you have to keep some thing in the shadows. It kind of takes away the magic of Dream for me on a personal level. However I can see why the SCA does not want that kind of press. Luckily my persona is very well developed from my research. Once I get a hold a book called "First Steps in Old English", I hope for high persona events I can be _really_ convincing. >I have a good reference on the Anglo-Saxon warrior, recently printed in >England. If you would like me to xerox the pages on shields please email >me >at awmorris at flash.net with your mailing address. Is that the one put out by Anglo-Saxon books? Cyniric Cyniwarding, hyrnboda Glaslynes 5th Century Angle not too fond of the Saxons :) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:08:05 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:08:05 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430210805.52495.qmail@hotmail.com> ><< Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be > there on the finished product. > >> >Are you a student or a teacher? I am a student but of linguistics, not art. I just live in the artist dorm at UNT for a few years. :) Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:10:27 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:10:27 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: <20000430211027.746.qmail@hotmail.com> >William is on pp. 293-4 (3rd ed.). Dated spellings: > Willelm, c. 1067 > Willelmus, 1086, 1199-1220 > Wilecoc, 1273 > Wylymot, 1379 > Gillet, Gillot(in), Gilliame, Guillot, 1306 > Wyll, c. 1515 > Gilow, Gylaw, 1379 > Gilmyn, 1379 >Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! I wonder if it would appear that way on the Bayeaux Tapestry? For some reason I think it does, or ay least the Latinization of it. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 14:51:40 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:51:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000430211027.746.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! > > I wonder if it would appear that way on the Bayeaux Tapestry? Possibly, but for SCA registration purposes, you don't need it, given the Reaney & Wilson dates. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 15:03:43 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:03:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000430210640.53750.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Naziism, paganism, and Christianity, all touched on in my message. Asbestos pajamas, everyone! On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > We are suppose to be an educational organization yet we hide > research. Sorry to interrupt your rant, but I've never noticed the SCA hide research. *Application* of the research, sometimes -- no witch hangings, no pogroms, little suppression of women, ... > I really hate being a slave to the actions of the 12 years of the > Arrogant Austrian. (Took me a moment trying to think of which period Austrian you were referring to. "Some Hapsburg? A Hohenzollern? ..." Then 1945-1933==12 clicked in.) > The fylfot, to use the Middle English term, was used on weapons, > burial urns, and other such things. Well, In My Humble Opinion, too bad. I'm sure that most were not marked with fylfots; there's any number of other symbols you can use. > I assure you other symbols have bad track records yet still are kept > around. I can think of only one: the cross. However, the vast majority of people in the US have positive or neutral opinions of it. This is not the case with the fylfot, the South African three-armed thingy, the pentagram (unfortunately), et cetera. (Lest you pigeon-hole me inaccurately as a Promise Keeper or something: I'm a militant agnostic/atheistic ygay man.) (An SCA heraldic note: Northern Atlantia had a major fuss when they had several candidates for their principality arms. One candidate was reminiscent of the flag of Maryland, which is the Baltimore arms, which is quartered with a cross (bottony, if memory serves). Several people said that they were vehemently opposed, to the point of not wanting to play there if it was adopted. I asked one what she would do if she ever had to move to Maryland and see the flag on her car, her driver's licence, state buildings, et cetera. I never did get an answer.) Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 17:54:16 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:54:16 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000501005416.75222.qmail@hotmail.com> >Naziism, paganism, and Christianity, all touched on in my message. >Asbestos pajamas, everyone! Anything to make you happy. >Sorry to interrupt your rant, but I've never noticed the SCA hide >research. *Application* of the research, sometimes -- no witch >hangings, no pogroms, little suppression of women, ... You rightly worded it. Sorry for my mistype. Ah, the good ol' days! :) >Well, In My Humble Opinion, too bad. I'm sure that most were not >marked with fylfots; there's any number of other symbols you can use. I leave it at we simply do not know. There are rock glyphs which do show the solar cross (the ring with a equal armed cross in it), which is a related symbol, used in context as shields. >I can think of only one: the cross. However, the vast majority of >people in the US have positive or neutral opinions of it. This is not >the case with the fylfot, the South African three-armed thingy, the >pentagram (unfortunately), et cetera. Unfortunately you are right. (Lest you pigeon-hole me >inaccurately as a Promise Keeper or something: I'm a militant >agnostic/atheistic ygay man.) That explains a lot. ;) My condolences. I am ordained heathen clergy so I definitely have a different take on the world. At any rate, since my persona is also a wagoneer/ merchant I will probably go with a wagon wheel as my main charge....of course wheels are not period. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 20:12:50 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000501005416.75222.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > of course wheels are not period. Anglo-Saxon and no wheels ... ah, must be those famous Anglo-Saxon Aztecs, originating in those fleeing across the sea from the Vikings. Ixtlilxochitl Aethelweards sunu was probably my favorite of the Heptarchs of the Yucatan. Monks in leopardskins. Yes. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Apr 30 20:25:27 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:25:27 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question Message-ID: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net writes: > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all > the text in an attachment. This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like every other post. Daniel, are you using weird software again / still? If so, THWAPP. :-) Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Apr 30 20:55:14 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:55:14 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: ILOI 0400 corrections Message-ID: Same song, umpteenth verse. Typos. ------- Addenda to April letter, "....assume it *is* a typing error of mine. If you can, post a correction to the Ansteorran heralds list (heralds at ansteorra.org). If not, let me know any way you can. Kathri, Asterisk" --------- Item 6 Chandranath name: mistyped URL. See below for explanation from submitter. But in my defense let it be said that there is *very* little difference between " ~ " and " - " and there are lots more enyas than dashes in Chandranath's documentation! Chandra, everybody got their Gazette late. And it's not too late for commentary; the deadline for ILOI0400 isn't until May 20. Thanks for the quick notice. ------------------------------- Item 13 Kathryn. Branch is Namron. ------------------------------- Item 16 Stephan of Monmouth. Name documentation was provided; I just didn't type it. It will be posted to the list as soon as I think I can do it. (I'm just getting back to heraldry after helping with Stargate's Assembly of the Contrades and I'm not even going to try to type documentation tonight.) -------------------------------- Item 17 Suannoch. Branch is Westgate. -------------------------------- More later, no doubt. Aelfwyn, please save this email as "Corrections to ILOI0400" for the May Gazette. I'll get the rest to you as soon as I can. Kathri, still Asterisk but dropping letters fast -- may be down to the first two letters by now. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Russ Smith Subject: ILOI 0400 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:40:36 -0500 (CDT) Size: 1405 URL: From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 30 22:20:06 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> from "Kathri@aol.com" at "Apr 30, 2000 11:25:27 pm" Message-ID: <200005010520.WAA13407@agora.rdrop.com> > In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net > writes: > > > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all > > the text in an attachment. > > This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like every > other post. > > Daniel, are you using weird software again / still? If so, THWAPP. :-) Dunno what Daniel's using (something on a SLIP-type connection, obviously) but I got two attachments, the entirety of the originating text in html, and 113 lines for Kendall's message, so it wasn't just Daniel. (Documentation and photocopies are two different things, BTW.) - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 22:13:24 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 Kathri at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > tmcd at jump.net writes: > > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and > > all the text in an attachment. > > This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like > every other post. It may have been an artifact of the original note being sent to the list in two versions in one note -- the old "I used the mailer defaults to send one copy in plain text, one in HTML" problem. My mail filter now swallows the rest of the message after the "Content-Type:" declaration of "text/html". The resultant mangled message (truncated internal header, no "NextPart" line following) may have confused the pine mailer (generally pretty smart and MIME-aware). I have not seen the problem before because it's the first time since installing the mail filter that I've replied from home (hence, using pine). Thank you, Kathri, for inducing me to investigate further. I will be more aware of such mangling issues, and I hope others will set their mailers to send only plain readable text to this list. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Tue Apr 4 09:19:32 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:19:32 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - To arms! To arms! And names, too. Message-ID: <22.3ffcbbf.261b7014@aol.com> OK, gang, heads up. It's spring and I'm 60ish days from stepping down from this office, so you know what that means: Spring cleaning! Clean-up, catch-up time! Yes, once again you will be the victims of my good intentions and our success in solicting submissions. Requests for conflict checks will soon rain about your heads. The good part is: we can handle this stuff quickly and get it on to Laurel or back to the submitter without passing the ILoI or collecting gobs of commentary. Believe me, there's still plenty of stuff that can't be handled with a mere conflict check. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rayasmith at yahoo.com Tue Apr 4 15:32:51 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world] Message-ID: <20000404223251.7424.qmail@web1901.mail.yahoo.com> Haven't had time to check this site out yet, but it sounds like it might potentially be helpful. Enjoy! Andre --- thomas grimes wrote: > Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:57:14 -0500 > From: thomas grimes > Subject: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from > around the world] > To: rayasmith at yahoo.com > Reply-to: tagrimes at swbell.net > > ATTACHMENT part TEXT message/rfc822 > Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:20:15 -0500 > From: William H Grimes > Subject: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around > the world > To: Thomas Grimes > Reply-to: grimy_b at swbell.net > > http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/ >

Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world

<A HREF="http://leader.linkexchange.com/1/X1006515/clickle" TARGET="_top"><IMG SRC="http://leader.linkexchange.com/1/X1006515/showle?" ALIGN=BOTTOM WIDTH=468 HEIGHT=60 BORDER=0 VSPACE=0 HSPACE=0 ISMAP></A>

Index
This Site Features

To view the free coat of arms graphics click on the first letter of the surname of interest above, ignoring any prefix such as "Mc", "O", etc
Original material copyright
© Eddie Geoghegan
1998 - 2000.
The coat of arms graphics I create are copyright © Eddie Geoghegan and are subject to legal protection worldwide. You are free to display, copy and distribute them for non-commercial purposes, including website display (a link back to this site would would be nice). You are also free to use them for non-profit business purposes (for example, letterheads, society / clan / family stationary and the like) i.e. where the graphic is used for adornment and not as a sales inducement. They may also be used for events such as family occasions and clan gatherings and reproduced on related memorabilia provided that such items are sold on a non-profit basis. Specifically prohibited is reselling of the images or their reproduction for use on items for sale for profit (including prints, tee-shirts, badges, collectibles, etc.). Neither may the graphics be offered free of charge as an inducement to attract sales of other commercial products. If in doubt as to the legality of any proposed use please contact me. Commercial use of my graphics requires my written agreement and an appropriate fee and / or royalty payment.
Although the vast majority of armorial bearings are hundreds of years old and not subject to regulation, certain coats of arms, badges, crests etc. may also be subject separate copyright restrictions. For example the copyright of national, regional, municipal and organizational arms may lie with a government, local government, organization or other body. It is your responsibility to obey all national and international laws and regulations regarding the display of such graphics.

Over 1100 FREE graphics of coats of arms from Ireland and around the world. These graphics are arranged in alphabetical section indexed on the left of this page.
FREE preliminary reference search for coats of arms not featured on this site. More
Professional quality, full colour prints up to 11 x 16 inches, output on HP 2500C professional printer using premium quality photo paper. More
Coat of Arms graphic make up service. Bitmap graphics made to order. Suitable for screen display and even printing from your own system (though the print quality will be significantly lower than prints supplied by me). More
Full Coat of Arms search. I have over 200,000 blazons (heraldic text descriptions of coats of arms) covering most of Europe. More
Irish Family Name Histories are available for a number of prominent and not so prominent surnames. More
Beautiful Etched Glassware individually handcrafted by Doug Cowan of Northwest Creations using coat of arms templates designed by me. More
Bookstore in two sections The first covers Irish and non Irish family history, genealogy and so on. More The second relates directly to heraldry. More
A Gallery to display samples of the products I supply to order. More
Ye Olde Heraldic Shoppe where you may request searches, place orders and find out what I hope to be able to offer in the future. More
Articles relating to Proto-Heraldry in Early Christian Ireland, Heraldry in Ireland, Gaelic Irish Heraldry and Heraldic Practice, The Coats of Arms of Irish Septs, The "Meaning" of Coats of Arms, Clans and Chieftains in Ireland, Mac and O in Irish Surnames, The Distortion of Irish Surnames and Irish Personal Names. More
The customs and practice of heraldry (otherwise known as Heraldry 101). More
The Irish Language as I use it to display the Irish (Gaelic) version of surnames on coats of arms graphics. More
Testimonials, Help, Links and Awards. More
Need a search of the Irish Civil Records (births, marriages, deaths, wills, etc)? I recommend
Records Ireland based in Dublin!

Top of Page

News:

Visitors:
12 March 2000
I am back at my old location for reasons that make to to angry to mention.
1 March 2000
If you would like to vote for this site on "Paddy's 50 Fave" Irish Sites click here
23 January 2000
40 new coats of arms added to the site bringing the total to 1137
18 January, 2000, 2:40pm
I just watched, with great satisfaction, the hit counter roll over the 200,000 mark. Thank you to all the visitors, regular and occasional, who have made this site such a success. Also a special "thank you" to everyone who placed links to here on their own sites. Will we see 250,000 roll up before the end of the year?

===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Tue Apr 4 17:22:07 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:22:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Known World Heraldic Symposium - PreRegistration Form Message-ID: It's Here! It's Here! (or rather, 'It's Online!' ). The PRE-REGISTRATION FORM for the Known World Heraldic Symposium to be held in Houston, Tx, last weekend in June, is now available online. The website is : www. peazy.com/KWHS.htm Dorm space is limited, but an overflow dorm may be available... so don't do the usual SCA thing, and wait till the last minute! (Or you may not be bunking in the 'Cool' dorm!) Send your REGISTRATIONS in SOON! If unable to download the MSWord doc file, please e-mail me. We still have TEACHER slots available. Please check website for list of current classes (updated weekly). Reminder! The 'PROCEEDINGS' book has a deadline of MAY 1st, please send your publications in soon. Very few articles have been received to date. AIRLINE suggestions: The website notes a special discount package with Continental Airlines, check it out. Also, you may wish to consider American Airline or Southwest Airlines (Texas preferred discount airline), both based in Dallas, with a quick turnaround to Houston. They may provide additional flight options. And, check out ticketing via the internet! Some direct airline sites are encouraging internet booking of flights by offering VERY discounted flights, but you must book EARLY! (more than 14 days advance). Remember, THIS EVENT IS FOR YOU, so only with your participation can it be a success! If questions or suggestions, please send E-MAIL DIRECTLY TO ME, not to the lists. Westgate is looking forward to having you as our guests this summer! HE Mistress Hillary Greenslade KWHS Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Tue Apr 4 23:11:20 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:11:20 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - armory books Message-ID: <38EAD908.E0F6844@flash.net> I was in the used book store today and found three copies of Brooke-Little's "An Heraldic Alphabet" and one copy of Fox-Davies' "A Complete Guide to Heraldry." If anyone would like one of these, email me privately at findbook at flash.net. --Perronnelle -- A gentleman is someone who is never unintentionally rude. --Oscar Wilde ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 5 08:39:31 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:39:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <38E3E297.28B730B0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <38EB5E33.4509@txcyber.com> Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so this is the first chance to look at this. When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble but here goes anyway. >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. These look to be clear of problems. >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of >five greater and five lesser points Sable. >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. These look to be clear of problems. >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five >greater and five lesser points Sable. This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for fieldless badges. "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" Anyone else care to venture into this. Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 08:49:41 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:49:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <38E3E297.28B730B0@earthlink.net> <38EB5E33.4509@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <38EB6095.59042BE@earthlink.net> Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. for better visual go to http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) HL Darius, Tressure Herald Doug Bell wrote: > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > this is the first chance to look at this. > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > but here goes anyway. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > fieldless badges. > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 5 09:15:43 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:15:43 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please (Huntsman Badge) Message-ID: <30.357d15e.261cc0af@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/2000 10:49:22 AM Central Daylight Time, dmmerlick at earthlink.net writes: > the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. But the part it obscures is the arrow shaft. To me, that makes the pheons look like a bordure (ingrailed? indented? scalloped?) rather than arrows. Either of the other two abide by the current rules, and look better to me. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 09:16:28 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:16:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BB@es05-hou.bmc.com> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two long skinny things in saltire is over used. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. for better visual go to http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) HL Darius, Tressure Herald Doug Bell wrote: > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > this is the first chance to look at this. > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > but here goes anyway. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > These look to be clear of problems. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > fieldless badges. > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 09:25:30 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: [Fwd: Coats of Arms in Ireland and from around the world] Message-ID: <200004051625.LAA18191@serv1.jump.net> Please don't mail an entire Web page to the list! The URL alone, http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/ suffices. I went to the site. It's a well-done armorial: you get a page of mini-emblazons (one page per initial letter of a surname), and if you click on a mini, you go to a large version. A few of them link to external Web pages with further info. The problems I see are - Almost every coat is identified only by surname. In the English, and hence Irish, system, a coat of arms is originally borne by only one person, and his eldest son is the only one who inherits it undifferenced. Listing a coat with just a surname leads to the "bucket shop" fraud. In fact, looking further, he advertises a "full coat of arms search". He never says "I'll send you stuff about your family coat of arms", but rather things like "text list of coars of arms for the surname ... you specify". However, the uneducated reader will not know about the caveat above and will assume that "I'm a Murphy, therefore this is my coat of arms". - There is no supporting documentation: no names of known bearers, no dates, nada. Looking further, you can get reports with all the info he has ... for $6 and up. - A few have lousy art. Click under "N" and look at the O'Neill design, then go to the external page and see their better design. It has *some* initial use for starting research, but not that great a source. -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 09:31:11 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:31:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BB@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EB6A4F.C83E3FBC@earthlink.net> Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > for better visual go to > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > but here goes anyway. > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > fieldless badges. > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > ============================================================================ > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 09:42:36 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:42:36 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only possible conflict is: Richard of Mont Royal, the Short The following badge associated with this name was registered in June of 1973: (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are on the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:31 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring of > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the two > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > for better visual go to > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > but here goes anyway. > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > fieldless badges. > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > ============================================================================ > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:44:21 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:44:21 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35415@209.184.113.10> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I agree. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:44:35 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:44:35 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35073@209.184.113.10> I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I agree. how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star in a nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 09:50:44 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.35441@209.184.113.10> Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only possible conflict is: Richard of Mont Royal, the Short The following badge associated with this name was registered in June of 1973: (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. Ummm, doesn't that clear by 1 cd for fieldlessness and 1 cd for saltorel v. pheon? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 5 09:52:43 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:52:43 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <6e.1d88e7a.261cc95b@aol.com> I'm signing up for the Aelfwyn branch of telepathy, thanks, I prefer her idea: > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. (snip) "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 10:02:28 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:02:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EB71A4.61E1918@earthlink.net> Cool, I have added this one to the web page, Aelfwyn's suggestion will take a little longer. Heraldic Psychic Association meeting, you know when, you know where! :) Darius "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. > > Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only > possible conflict is: > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > The following badge associated with this name was registered in > June of 1973: > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. > > And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are on > the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) > > --Francois ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 10:09:37 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:09:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.35415@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EB7350.AB8FF6BD@texas.net> Hang the hunting horn over the top point of the star, so that it would be hanging horizontally across the star. You'd lose no clarity, since those are both very distinctive shapes. The arrow or pheon, I'm less sure on; you can cross arrows behind the star or something like that. --Alisandre jodimc at texas.net wrote: > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that > has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. > > I agree. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran > star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines > of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears > to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." > > AElfwyn > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 10:16:11 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:16:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please In-Reply-To: <38EB71A4.61E1918@earthlink.net> References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2BD@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000405121611.00dc158c@es01-aus.bmc.com> The only concern I had with a "hunting horn only" idea, as I told Francois on the phone, is regarding the similarity of hunting horns and the drinking horns that you see all over SCA events. We need to make sure this indicates Royal Huntsman instead of Royal Lush or some such... FYI: the reason Francois mentioned the possible conflict is that neither of us could remember what the heck a saltorel is... Does it have an outline that could conflict with a pheon, etc. Mari (otherwise, I like the hunting horn idea also.) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at healthaxis.com Wed Apr 5 10:20:54 2000 From: TRayburn at healthaxis.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:20:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34AFA@NRHCRE00> How about Fieldless, on a hunters horn Or a mullet of five/five sable surmounted by a pheon or. Timothy > -----Original Message----- > From: Bordelon, Wendel [SMTP:Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:43 AM > To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > how about fieldless a mullet of 5 >/ 5 < sable a pheon or. > > Doesn't get the horn that I like but Mari and I just checked and the only > possible conflict is: > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > The following badge associated with this name was registered in > June of 1973: > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. > > And Darius, welcome to the telepathy circle of Heralds, Mari and I are > on > the phone discussing semy of pheons when you sent your message :-) > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:31 AM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > > Sable semy pheons Argent on a bend Or a hunters horn between two > mullets of five greater and five lesser points sable ????? > > Darius > > "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has > always > > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. I dont think the ring > of > > pheons will work because of identifiablity. And personally I think the > two > > long skinny things in saltire is over used. > > > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran star > in > a > > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > > > --Francois > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:50 AM > > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > > Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > > > Hmm interesting, however in the case of the "mullet of five pheons" the > > overlap area ends up as small and obsuring only a part of each pheon. > > for better visual go to > > http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html These wern't done at > > he time of the original posting. (BTW these are the potential design > > ideas for the Royal Huntsman badge) > > > > HL Darius, Tressure Herald > > > > Doug Bell wrote: > > > > > > Southern regional kept everyone busy down here so > > > this is the first chance to look at this. > > > > > > When I wander into armory it often gets me into trouble > > > but here goes anyway. > > > > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair gules over all > > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >1. (fieldless) Two arrows inverted in saltair Or over all > > > >a mullet of five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules a mullet of > > > >five greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >2. (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Or a mullet of five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > These look to be clear of problems. > > > > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Gules over all a mullet of > five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > >3. (fieldless) a mullet of five pheons Or over all a mullet of five > > > >greater and five lesser points Sable. > > > This looks to come under the ban on overall charges for > > > fieldless badges. > > > "[On a compass star a castle] As draw[n], this violates our rules on > > > overall charges. The castle is not on the compass star, but overall. > > > However, overall charges are only permitted in fieldless badges when > > > at least one of the charges is long and skinny, such that the area > > > of over lap is small and the identifiability of the charges is not > > > lost. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1996, p. 15)" > > > > > > Anyone else care to venture into this. > > > > > > Magnus von Lubeck > > > > > > ========================================================================== > == > > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > ========================================================================== > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > > > ========================================================================== > == > > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list > tasks. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ========================================================================== > == > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 10:38:46 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.35073@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EB7A26.7C667DB3@earthlink.net> OK I have Gifs of the Blackstar and hunters horn up now, I put bith a "hunters Horn" and a "Spiral Hunters Horn" up just in case. http://home.earthlink.net/~dmmerlick/huntsman.html Darius jodimc at texas.net wrote: > > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that > has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. > > I agree. > > how can we get an arrow or pheon, a hunter horn and an Ansteorran > star in a > nice design? Doesn't have to be fieldless. > > I'd dump the arrow/pheon. What about something along the lines > of the badge in the middle of Foster on page 214, which appears > to be a Tudor rose on a sun? "(Fieldless) A mullet of five greater > and five lesser points sable, a hunter's horn Or." > > AElfwyn > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:06:57 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051906.OAA02003@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > I would like to see a hunting horn as part of the design, that has always > seemed more like the symbol of a huntsman to me. Amen. Further, how many *other* danglies in Ansteorra have "a mullet of five greater and five lesser points" as the major element of the design? It's almost as boring as "Dragon's X" used in Midrealm awards, or "Griffin's X" in western areas, or "X Keep". > I dont think the ring of pheons will work > because of identifiablity. Amen. It looked like some sort of engrailed voided mullet. Further, I don't see how to blazon it. For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily the corners meeting. For the "two arrows in saltire" / "a sheaf of three arrows": that's overdone too. > Doesn't have to be fieldless. "Royal Huntsman" is an award, right? (Oughta be handled as a *job*, grumble grumble.) There are examples of positions held by a single person having fielded arms (the Marshal of the HRE with the (in)famous crossed swords, for example, or any number of bishophrics), but I think it really ought to be fieldless. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:17:45 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:17:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051917.OAA03133@serv1.jump.net> Darius suggested: > semy [of] pheons You don't mind, then, if the recipient of the award looks like an inmate in Her Majesty's prisons? I think the US has abandoned the striped prison garb (if ever we had it outside cartoons), but the UK may still use "semy of broadarrow [heads]" on theirs. I can't find anything about prison clothing. I only find http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/history/coveycrump/alpha/resource/b_content.htm , a fine Web page of Royal Navy slang, THE BROAD ARROW The Government mark formerly put on all solid material used in HM ships and dockyards to denote their Government ownership -similar to the Rogue's Yarn laid up in cordage. See ROGUE. The origin of the mark is obscure. Some say it was the seal of the Earls of Leicester who, in the days of Queen Elizabeth I, was responsible for all the Queen's stores. Others say it was the badge of Lord de l'isle, First Commissioner of the Ordnance at that time. An act of 1687 describes it as "His Majesty's Mark" (to be put on boundary houses in the Tower of London). An act of 1698 authorised penalties for persons found in possession of articles marked with this mark. There's a further problem: how does one put "semy of pheons" recognizably on a dangly that's maybe an inch in diameter? Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:22:55 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051922.OAA03827@serv1.jump.net> > Richard of Mont Royal, the Short > (Fieldless) On a star of David sable, a saltorel Or. ] Ummm, doesn't that clear by 1 cd for fieldlessness and 1 cd for ] saltorel v. pheon? 1 CD for fieldlessness. In general, two changes to a tertiary are needed to get a CD. However, X.4.j.ii says that "simple" cases can get a CD for just a substantial change of type of the tertiary. However, that requires (among other things) that the base charge be simple enough in outline to be voidable, and I don't know that an Ansteorran mullet is that simple. There's another possibility: that by "Star of David" they mean a Mogen David, a mullet of six points *voided and interlaced*, like on an Israeli flag. The problem is then: how do you fit anything "on" a Mogen David, when it doesn't have a solid interior to put anything on? I would also be somewhat surprised if there's not a "(Fieldless) On a sun sable a widget Or" already registered, but my initial check showed nothing. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:25:33 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:25:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051925.OAA04043@serv1.jump.net> Alisandre / Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Hang the hunting horn over the top point of the star Do you have any period examples of anything like that? I'd much prefer to suggest known period motifs; please don't suggest inventions without evidence. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 12:26:08 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:26:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004051906.OAA02003@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EB9350.D907832E@earthlink.net> The Royal Huntsman is the chosen title for the new Kingdom archery Champion to be chosen at Steppes Warlord, so not really an Award. and I will fess up to being the originator of the Mullet of Pheons (or is that five pheons in annulo sp? conjoined at base?) It was the artist in me over riding the herald. Happens more often than I will admit. Darius "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > "Royal Huntsman" is an award, right? (Oughta be handled as > a *job*, grumble grumble.) There are examples of positions > held by a single person having fielded arms (the Marshal of the HRE > with the (in)famous crossed swords, for example, or any number > of bishophrics), but I think it really ought to be fieldless. > > Daniel de Lincolia ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rknight at kumc.edu Wed Apr 5 12:23:39 2000 From: rknight at kumc.edu (Ron Knight) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:23:39 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily >>the corners meeting. ...five pheons in mullet... Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:31:07 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:31:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051931.OAA04647@serv1.jump.net> Mari / "Kathleen O'Brien" wrote: > the similarity of hunting horns and the drinking > horns that you see all over SCA events. Well, you can't drink from a picture of a hunting horn painted on a dangly ... A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. (Alas.) > neither of us could remember what the heck a saltorel is And to think you have them all over the place ... tsk, tsk. Saltorel: diminutive of a saltire. It's couped short of the edges of whatever it's on. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 12:33:21 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004051933.OAA04847@serv1.jump.net> Timothy / "Rayburn, Timothy" wrote: > Fieldless, on a hunters horn Or a mullet of five/five sable > surmounted by a pheon or. If you mean "on a horn a mullet, on a mullet a pheon", that's an instaboing for too many layers. If you mean "a [n Ansteorran] mullet, overall a pheon", I'd expect that to be almost unrecognizable. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 13:52:10 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:52:10 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.49927@209.184.113.10> Quoth Daniel: >A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. ^^^^^^^^^ Been at the horn yourself, Daniel? >Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. >(Alas.) Still recovering from Godwyn? Or was it the kiss? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:01:44 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:01:44 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.50500@209.184.113.10> Saith the incredulous Master de Lincolia: >I would also be somewhat surprised if there's not a >"(Fieldless) >On a sun sable a widget Or" already registered, but my >initial check showed nothing. No, but what about this lovely if we wanted to drop the star: Nikolaj Zrogowacialy: (Tinctureless) A flat spiral horn of three turns reversed. Would a hunting horn be X.2 substantially changed? I'm a-doubtin' it. ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:36:47 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052136.QAA21472@serv1.jump.net> AElfwyn / jodimc at texas.net noted: > Quoth Daniel: >> A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. Lemme try that again. The hunting horn on the proposed badges page has a prominent strap, and it can be depicted as such. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:36:31 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:31 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C1@es05-hou.bmc.com> What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) --Francois -----Original Message----- From: jodimc at texas.net [mailto:jodimc at texas.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 3:52 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Quoth Daniel: >A hunting horn has (and have have a prominent) string. ^^^^^^^^^ Been at the horn yourself, Daniel? >Nor can I imagine most Ansteorrans objecting to drinking. >(Alas.) Still recovering from Godwyn? Or was it the kiss? AElfwyn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:40:30 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052140.QAA22473@serv1.jump.net> jodimc at texas.net / AElfwyn wrote: << No, but what about this lovely if we wanted to drop the star: Nikolaj Zrogowacialy: (Tinctureless) A flat spiral horn of three turns reversed. Would a hunting horn be X.2 substantially changed? I'm a-doubtin' it. >> I doubt it too, but it's not necessary to get X.2 to clear it. There's the fieldless / tinctureless automatic 1 CD bribe. "Tinctureless" means you can't get a tincture CD, but all the rest apply. You only need 1 more CD for type (or orientation or whatever) to clear them, and on visual or functional grounds you might get it for a three-turn horn versus a straightish one. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:37:44 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:37:44 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C2@es05-hou.bmc.com> how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily >>the corners meeting. ...five pheons in mullet... Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 14:41:28 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052141.QAA22806@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) How to distract a judge, technique #47: use the Bugs Bunny technique of an unexpected kiss on the smackers. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 14:40:51 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C4@es05-hou.bmc.com> did it work? -----Original Message----- From: tmcd at jump.net [mailto:tmcd at jump.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 4:41 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Francois wrote: > What's this about a kiss???? I didn't hear about that :-) How to distract a judge, technique #47: use the Bugs Bunny technique of an unexpected kiss on the smackers. DdL -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 14:47:46 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:47:46 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C2@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38EBB482.4DA47232@earthlink.net> OK unfamiliar Blazon term, what does five Pheons in Bransle look like? "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts > >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily > >>the corners meeting. > > ...five pheons in mullet... > > Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:46:41 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:46:41 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.53198@209.184.113.10> --- Original Message --- "Bordelon, Wendel" Wrote on Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:40:51 -0500 ------------------ did it work? *massive chortle* Boy, did it. Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. AElfwyn, who remembers the moment fondly and with vast amusement, even if Daniel doesn't ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 14:53:58 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (jodimc at texas.net) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:53:58 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Daniel opined: "Tinctureless" means you can't get a tincture CD, but all the rest apply. You only need 1 more CD for type (or orientation or whatever) to clear them, and on visual or functional grounds you might get it for a three-turn horn versus a straightish one. Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. Aelfwynn ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 15:01:29 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:01:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EBB7B9.20AA7E4A@earthlink.net> Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's Champion Archer" to me. Darius > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > Aelfwynn > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 15:19:50 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:19:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052219.RAA00554@serv1.jump.net> AElfwyn wrote: > Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five > minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn > or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. It was perhaps 10 seconds, which was probably a few seconds too long for maxiumum audience appreciation. Timing in comedy is everything. The misreading of later lines off the script definitely took too long. The initial stunning was because it was a guy suddenly kissing me on the lips during a performance. The continued stunning was because acting stunned was because I thought it would make the audience laugh. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 5 15:23:23 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:23:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > AElfwyn wrote: > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > Champion Archer" to me. No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. The king's champion is the guy in armor with a sword who rode the horse into the coronation banquet hall and upheld the king's claim. There's no period way to say "King's Champion Archer", except perhaps for the slightly-post-period Silver Arrow of S. Andrews: http://www.linksarchers.ndirect.co.uk/scottisharcher/pages/issue11/silver.htm I'd therefore rather emphasize something that *could* be period -- a huntsman with especial favour from the Crown. Daniel "The Order of John Peel?" de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:10:53 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:10:53 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052219.RAA00554@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBC7FD.E7C54759@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > AElfwyn wrote: > > Daniel stood there with this stunned look for what seemed to be five > > minutes. I couldn't decide if it was due to the fact it was Godwyn > > or that it was because Godwyn was massively smashed by that point. > > It was perhaps 10 seconds, Soooo, I exaggerate. > > The initial stunning was because it was a guy suddenly kissing me on > the lips during a performance. The continued stunning was because > acting stunned was because I thought it would make the audience laugh. > It certainly did me! AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:14:51 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:14:51 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBC8EB.290C12CA@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > > Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > > AElfwyn wrote: > > > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > > > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. > > > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > > Champion Archer" to me. > > No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable > and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the > stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. > Ooh, I *like*. Or per fess. Or Quarterly. I also like the idea of a hunting horn alone, in whatever colors, because you could do such cool things, like actually give the winner a hunting horn in the colors, or an enameled dangly in that shape, which gets to be a problem if there's a field or if it's too complicated. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:48:28 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:48:28 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <05040096.53635@209.184.113.10> Message-ID: <38EBD0CB.844DF300@texas.net> jodimc at texas.net wrote: > Okay, then, what do y'all think of a simple "(Fieldless) A hunting > horn sable"? Double-check me, but I think it's clear. What about (wait for it......) (fieldless) an oliphant sable? (sorry, couldn't resist). Is there any difference between a hunting horn and any other type blowing-horn? --Alisandre ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Wed Apr 5 16:50:03 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:50:03 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please References: <200004052223.RAA01095@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38EBD12B.CC7BA8BF@texas.net> "Timothy A. McDaniel" wrote: > Darius / Darius and Monica wrote: > > Nice Idea for a badge but it just doesn't say "This is Ansteorra's > > Champion Archer" to me. > > No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable > and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the > stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. Whyoncha have a sable horn bound, banded and strapped (or whatever) Or? --Alisandre ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Wed Apr 5 22:01:43 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:01:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2C7@es05-hou.bmc.com> sorry for the delay in answer... I had to make a quick journey to Caid.... a bransle is a style of dance. War Bransle is a dance. Bransle usually have a circle of people holding hands. -Francois -----Original Message----- From: Darius and Monica [mailto:dmmerlick at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 4:48 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please OK unfamiliar Blazon term, what does five Pheons in Bransle look like? "Bordelon, Wendel" wrote: > > how about a set of five pheon's in bransle? possibly "war bransle" > > --Francois > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Knight [mailto:rknight at kumc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:24 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: RE: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please > > >> For "a mullet of five pheons", I was expecting the shafts > >>of the pheons to be meeting in the middle and not necessarily > >>the corners meeting. > > ...five pheons in mullet... > > Modar (running and ducking) *quack* *quack* > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From StephenMacthomas at aol.com Thu Apr 6 04:10:05 2000 From: StephenMacthomas at aol.com (StephenMacthomas at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:10:05 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Field Heraldry at Crown Tournament Message-ID: Greetings unto all to whom these presents shall come from Lord Stephen Macthomas, coordinator of field heralds for Crown Tournament. I must apologize for any duplicate posts that you may or may not receive, but I am in need of volunteers to assist with heraldry at Crown Tournament during the weekend of April 14-16 in the Barony of Loch Soillier. Though I currently have a few volunteers already in place, more people make for less strain on the voice, and so I once again make the call for assistance. As coordinator of field heralds, I am responsible for not only the voice heraldry taking place on the list field, but also for the dissemination of announcements throughout the site. Lady Meliora, the event steward, has asked that I have two gentles in place for heralding the lists at the field, two for making announcements and one in charge of the Honor Board, as well as a handful of stand-by heralds available to step in when and where needed. There are certain requirements for the list heralds and the Honor Board attendant. The list heralds are required by Kingdom Law to have a current Combat Authorization Card for Non-Combat Participation, unless they are specifically invited onto the field by the marshal-in-charge. To alleviate any such special permissions during the event, I am asking that all those who would herald the list have a current authorization in hand and have prior list heraldry experience. Those tending to the Honor Board should have a certain competency with armory and blazon, so that the pairings for each round may be posted to the Board with the greatest expediency. If there is a certain aspect that you prefer to be involved with - list, announcements or the Honor Board - please let me know in advance so that I am sure to have everything covered before the event. If you wish to volunteer your service please let me know via e-mail at stephenmacthomas at aol.com. I am looking forward to working with all of you at Crown Tournament. In service to the Crown and Ansteorra, Lord Stephen ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 07:45:34 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:45:34 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406144534.97419.qmail@hotmail.com> >No, but it says "Huntsman" pretty well, and if it's "per pale sable >and Or" (look, Ma! Using the Ansteorran colors without the >stereotyped star!) it suggests "Ansteorran" as well. I am new to the whole herald thing but what if there were arrows in the bell of the horn as if in a quiver, a kind of cornicopia of arrows. Cyniric acting herald of Glaslyn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 09:29:12 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:29:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004061629.LAA06196@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric, acting herald of Glaslyn / "Richard Culver" wrote: > I am new to the whole herald thing but what if there were arrows in the > bell of the horn as if in a quiver, a kind of cornicopia of arrows. I would worry a bit about damaging the horn with that! There are examples of conjoined badges in period and in the SCA. The SCA example I'm remembering was based on a period English example: it had something like "a fish head, issuant from its mouth a cubit arm sustaining something or another". If it's period and it's distinctive, I'm usually all for it. Unfortunately for this, a fish head can naturally and easily point upward. Also unfortunately, some people might think a bent arm (for ex.) issuing from a horn and holding an arrow looks weird. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:11:33 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:11:33 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406191133.53790.qmail@hotmail.com> >I would worry a bit about damaging the horn with that! Hey, it's just an idea! :? >There are examples of conjoined badges in period and in the SCA. >The SCA example I'm remembering was based on a period English example: >it had something like "a fish head, issuant from its mouth >a cubit arm sustaining something or another". If it's period and >it's distinctive, I'm usually all for it. Unfortunately for >this, a fish head can naturally and easily point upward. >Also unfortunately, some people might think a bent arm >(for ex.) issuing from a horn and holding an arrow looks weird. I suppose for the sake of clarification what kind of "hunting horn" do people see using, The french horn looking one, a cattle horn with a strap or some other horn? I was sick for a few days so I had a mass delete episode on my e-mail. How about the horn in Or with the sable mullet on the bell over two arrows (or a quiver for that matter) in saltaire sable? I am just grasping at ideas here. :) Cyniric ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 14:15:54 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:15:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004062115.QAA03001@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric / "Richard Culver" wrote: > How about the horn in Or with the sable mullet on the bell over two > arrows (or a quiver for that matter) in saltaire sable? I am just grasping > at ideas here. PUT THE IDEAS DOWN AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY Seriously, too many people in the SCA have two weapons in saltire, or two different widgets. ("Two unrelated widgets" is actually on Tadhg's armorial cliche list.) Sure, it's doable, but the kingdom motto is "Unicus et Singularis", Unique and Singular, so why not try to live up to it? (How's *that* for an argument?) Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 14:45:59 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:45:59 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <20000406214600.74586.qmail@hotmail.com> >Seriously, too many people in the SCA have two weapons in >saltire, or two different widgets. ("Two unrelated widgets" >is actually on Tadhg's armorial cliche list.) Sure, it's doable, >but the kingdom motto is "Unicus et Singularis", Unique and Singular, >so why not try to live up to it? (How's *that* for an argument?) > >Daniel de Lincolia Agreed. I just figure if I have enough ideas, one of them may work (nevermind the 1000 bad ones I would go through). I would agree with, I believe it was, Darius there should be something there to indicate this person is an archer. If it is just a horn the person could be Kingdom Bugler for all anyone would know. Here is another idea (it does not help beating me, I might enjoy it): :) I may use non heraldic terms here just to get what I see across. fieldless, on an archery bow with string drawn sable an arrow shaft Or headed with the a mullet of five greater and lesser points sable all pointed to chief In case I did nt make any sense (Old English is easier the\an Heraldic). Essentially the drawn bow with the arrow of yellow with the Ansteorran star as its "head" pointing upwards as if shooting to the heavens. Cyniric ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 14:55:33 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:55:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Opinions Please Message-ID: <200004062155.QAA06631@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric / "Richard Culver" wrote: > fieldless, on an archery bow with string drawn sable an arrow shaft Or > headed with the a mullet of five greater and lesser points sable > all pointed to chief I'm afraid my reaction is still "SCA cliche". Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Thu Apr 6 15:21:18 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:21:18 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C2CD@es05-hou.bmc.com> The web page that darius creates was sent to the Archery list. I put a quick summary of what we were discussing and why. I have not seen much feedback but what I did get was that the hunters horn sounded like a good idea. There have been no violent reactions from the archers (could be that I am still out of range of the arrows) One suggestion that was received was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. One of the best things about having a hunters horn as the badge is that the pass-along symbol of the Royal Huntsman. --Francois ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Agnarr at apex2000.net Thu Apr 6 15:39:59 2000 From: Agnarr at apex2000.net (HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:39:59 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <002a01bfa019$0b14c3c0$7787f9d0@Agnarr> Nope just that most of us are still in shock that this is happening (grin) HL Agnarr Premiere Archer and retiring herald of Crossrode Keep -----Original Message----- From: Bordelon, Wendel To: 'heralds at ansteorra.org' Date: Thursday, April 06, 2000 5:17 PM Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge > >The web page that darius creates was sent to the Archery list. I put a >quick summary of what we were discussing and why. I have not seen much >feedback but what I did get was that the hunters horn sounded like a good >idea. There have been no violent reactions from the archers (could be that >I am still out of range of the arrows) One suggestion that was received >was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. > > >One of the best things about having a hunters horn as the badge is that the >pass-along symbol of the Royal Huntsman. > >--Francois >=========================================================================== = >Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 6 16:20:11 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Horn as badge Message-ID: <200004062320.SAA13490@serv1.jump.net> Francois wrote: > One suggestion that was received > was "a hunters horn Or" I would suggest banded and strapped sable, also. Some heraldic fru-fru (a technical term, of course; these are highly-trained stunt heralds on a closed list field) gets blazoned even when worth no difference, but some gets stripped by Laurel (e.g., "a fleur-de-lys florencee", "armed and langued"). Some registered examples: 6/95, Andreas Tillman von Severin: "a hunting horn ... gules stringed azure" 5/87, Anna Georgievna of Kiev: "garnished". 8/87, Arthur Lacey: "banded". 5/92, Baldred Elphinstone of Torwood: "stringed and banded". 2/82, Diego Mundox: "unstrung". 2/87, Garth ap Collin: "three h.h. in annulo sable, bowed Or". 9/83, Karl Silverhorn: "stringed and lipped". 7/86, Landolf Witkowski: "garnished" and "stringed" in sep. tinct. There are a few more examples of "stringed" not cited. I'd say we have some choice of terms and a decent case to ask Laurel to keep such heraldic fru-fru (don't try this term at home). Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Thu Apr 6 20:01:42 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:01:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) References: <200004062155.QAA06631@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38ED4F96.EB0B245B@earthlink.net> Their Majesties have stated their preference is: (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a Mullet of five greater and five lesser points Being as i am not necessarily the best at This any help doing one more conflict check on it would be appreciated. Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rjt2 at airmail.net Thu Apr 6 20:06:41 2000 From: rjt2 at airmail.net (Richard Threlkeld) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:06:41 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) In-Reply-To: <38ED4F96.EB0B245B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: What is the tincture of the Mullet. If sable, we have color on color. Caelin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-heralds at ansteorra.org [mailto:owner-heralds at ansteorra.org]On > Behalf Of Darius and Monica > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:02 PM > To: heralds at ansteorra.org > Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) > > > Their Majesties have stated their preference is: > > (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a > Mullet of five greater and five lesser points > > Being as I am not necessarily the best at This any help doing one more > conflict check on it would be appreciated. > > Darius > ================================================================== > ========== > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing > list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 7 07:59:36 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:59:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check (was Opinions Please) Message-ID: <200004071459.JAA03197@serv1.jump.net> Darius wrote: > Their Majesties have stated their preference is: > > (fieldless) On a sheaf of arrows Gules, fletched and barbed Or, a > Mullet of five greater and five lesser points [Daniel begins banging his head on the desk] So much for "Unicus et Singularis". So much for not specifying heraldic fru-fru. (Rule-of-thumb complexity count of 5 on a fieldless badge. Sigh.) Out of curiosity, what choices were they presented, and by whom? Keeping in mind that there's a school of thought that Star Principal Herald ought to be their primary heraldic advisor and kept up-to-date on all dealings with the royals? > Being as I am not necessarily the best at This ... Caelin on Andrede / "Richard Threlkeld" wrote: ] What is the tincture of the Mullet. If sable, we have color ] on color. Just a Side Note: SCA blazons capitalizes only the first word, the word "Fieldless", the tincture "Or", and any proper names. (English text capitalizes only the first word of a sentence, the pronoun "I", most acronyms, proper names, et cetera.) The blazon as given is not usable as-is. As Caelin noted, there's no tincture given for the mullet. I'll bet 20 dollars to anyone's 5 cents that the Crown wants it specifically sable; any takers? Second, the mullet cannot be "on" arrows. "On" means it's a tertiary charge, a charge lying entirely upon another charge. You can't fit anything on the shaft. Conceivably, you might charge an arrow on its head or fletching, but there's but one mullet and three arrows with separate heads and tails. [Fieldless] A sheaf of arrows gules fletched and barbed Or, overall a mullet of five greater and five lesser points sable. Close to but clear of Dragonsspine, Kirk of Wendarrow, Kuji Ka Onimusashi, Robyn McLaren, and several others. There are 71 pieces of armory with three arrows, most of them in a sheaf. I have a group meeting in 4 minutes, so I can't check now. Anyone checking a raw e-Armorial should check for "ARROW:3"; the keywords after that vary too much to search for. Daniel de Lincolia, distempered -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Fri Apr 7 07:08:18 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:08:18 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question Message-ID: <200004071516.KAA11623@blackstar.ansteorra.org> I'm attempting to help out one of our shire members finally (I thought) submit her name, device, and badge. Apparently there was some attempt at the past to submit them through another group, but that didn't happen or something, and she just got her paperwork back recently. According to the wonderful index, however, some stuff had apparently been submitted back in '96. Her name (Sl?ine an Mac- T?re) was returned in Kingdom 5/96, her badge returned, and her device pended. Alas, I have '95 gazettes, and '97 gazettes, but no '96 gazettes to look at to find out a) why, and b) what exactly it was that was returned/pended. Since this was well over 2 years ago, she knows she'll have to pay again to resubmit everything. How should I submit this? I'm not sure if what she is intending to submit now is identical to what failed in the past (I don't *think* so, except for her name), or if it's all different, or what. I haven't yet seen her name documentation. -Emma de Fetherstan Shire of Mooneschadowe -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 08:37:07 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:37:07 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? Message-ID: <6e.1e5997e.261f5aa3@aol.com> I have the following sentence on a submission form: Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names, p 145 shows Frensell = Frenzel and lists Frenezel Rosenstengel dated to 1320. My question is whether the 1320 reference is for "Frenezel" or "Frenczel" -- I believe it has the "e" but I want to make sure. Kathri, Asterisk (who *really* wishes they would hurry up and reprint that book!) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Fri Apr 7 08:40:39 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:40:39 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question In-Reply-To: <200004071516.KAA11623@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000407104039.00ddebe0@es01-aus.bmc.com> >According to the wonderful index, however, some stuff had >apparently been submitted back in '96. Her name (Sl?ine an Mac- >T?re) was returned in Kingdom 5/96, her badge returned, and her >device pended. Alas, I have '95 gazettes, and '97 gazettes, but no >'96 gazettes to look at to find out a) why, and b) what exactly it >was that was returned/pended. The Bordure set of Gazettes is at home. I can look it up for you this weekend if no one posts the info before then. >Since this was well over 2 years ago, she knows she'll have to pay >again to resubmit everything. How should I submit this? I'm not >sure if what she is intending to submit now is identical to what >failed in the past (I don't *think* so, except for her name), or if it's >all different, or what. I haven't yet seen her name documentation. It needs to go in as a Resubmitted Name. Note that the original name and the date it was returned. That way, if the new name is completely different, Asterisk can find the correct file folder for her. In any case, the pended device will need to be put on new forms. So it may just be easier to draw up the device she wants now on a new form. Then submit it as a "Resubmitted device" noting that she had a device pended at kingdom (and the date of the pend) and this new form is to replace the pended device. That way it doesn't matter what the old device looked like and she should get what she wants now. Mari ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 09:45:06 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:45:06 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2000 10:17:59 AM Central Daylight Time, jds-emma at operamail.com writes: > a) why, and b) what exactly it > was that was returned/pended. This is summarized from the Gazettes: Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked "no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle ages" which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: Black, Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p 519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to 1513. Device: Argent a bend sinister between a wolf's head couped contourny gules and three trefoils vert. Pended at Kingdom for submission of acceptable name. This was the final blazon at kingdom. There was no real problem with the device, except that we needed an acceptable name before we could send it to Laurel. There is no copy of her device form in the file, but it would be on old forms that we couldn't use now. I'd advise you to check it for conflicts again before drawing it on the current forms. (If you like, you could post a request to the Ansteorran heralds list; they have been very helpful to me about conflict checks. And they're much better at it than I am!) Badge: Proposed blazon - Or, a wolf couchant gules head to sinister bearing in its mouth a sword reversed bendwise with dexter paw raised over the point, a collar fracted, the rear legs crossed with the dexter paw draped over the back and the tail nowed and erect. Returned for unblazonable position. The Gazette states "Submitter is encouraged to register a heraldic beast in a heraldic position, then use artistic license for any other details." To the CoH, this looked like an attempt to register a knotwork beast in the style of Celtic illumination, and that's not heraldry. It's artwork, but it's not heraldic art. She's more likely to succeed with, for instance, "Or a wolf couchant regardant gules [bearing in its mouth a sword reversed bendwise]." Then she can put the feet anywhere she wants once it's registered, but the copy that goes to Laurel would need to be a standard "wolf couchant" with feet flat on the ground beneath it. And of course, check for conflict before bothering to put it on forms. I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern and diligence on behalf of your submitters. Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Fri Apr 7 10:36:58 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:36:58 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the >names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. > >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of >dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle ages" >which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: Black, >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to >1513. Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine construction" precedent. If I remember correctly, is a feminine name. Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'. So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine patronymic byname. In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally. And since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form is not registerable. There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), whether to change the particle to or , etc. >I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern >and diligence on behalf of your submitters. I'd like to thank you as well. It's so helpful to the submitters when someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission. Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something registered that she likes. Mari, Bordure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Fri Apr 7 11:28:37 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:28:37 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> References: <5b.4320597.261f6a92@aol.com> Message-ID: <200004071937.OAA15952@blackstar.ansteorra.org> > There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are > registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, > language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what > direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an > Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to > 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), > whether to change the particle to or , etc. Thanks to both you and Kathri for help with this. I don't know (yet) what form she plans to register -- I'll get that from her Tuesday. I can guarantee she wants the "Sl[a']ine", but am not sure of the rest. The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Also, her original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find references the tail at all). -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Fri Apr 7 14:08:38 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:08:38 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <3c.27171de.261fa856@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2000 2:37:59 PM Central Daylight Time, jds-emma at operamail.com writes: > The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules > maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work > on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Either will work, if the badge is clear of conflict. Experts, what say you? > Also, her > original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be > explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find > references the tail at all). No, don't blazon it. The position of the tail isn't part of the definition of 'couchant' and it varies. Some are curled up over the back, some are "erect," some are wrapped around the beast, some are below the beast, and there are quite a few that go under the back of the body and then back up between the hind leg and the side to wave merrily in the air. It's not usually blazoned. Out of the first 200 examples in the O&A, the tail was blazoned only 7 times. And in most of those cases, something Rather Odd was happening -- by which I mean something besides what I've listed above! Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 9 11:54:41 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? In-Reply-To: <6e.1e5997e.261f5aa3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2000 Kathri at aol.com wrote: > I have the following sentence on a submission form: > > Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names, p 145 shows Frensell = Frenzel and lists > Frenezel Rosenstengel dated to 1320. > > My question is whether the 1320 reference is for "Frenezel" or > "Frenczel" -- I believe it has the "e" but I want to make sure. Here's what Bahlow has, verbatim: Frensel = Frenzel. ... Frenzel (UGer.-Sil.) = Franz, see this. Frenczel Rosenstengel, Brsl. 1328. Cf. Bahlow SN, p. 58. and back on p. 143 s.n. Franz: Franz, Frantz: after St. Francis of Assisi (died 1220), see Bahlow VN, p. 34. Nickns. Fr{a"}nzel, Frenz(e)l (UGer., also Sil.), also Sil. Franzke (with Slav. k-suffix). LGer. patrs. Frantzen, Franssen (L.Rhine). But Frentz(en), Frenssen (Holstein) means Lafrenz = Laurentius [Laurence]! Fr{a"}nznick means Nikolaus Franz. Dan. de Linc. (AN.) -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From catsden at texas.net Sun Apr 9 13:45:06 2000 From: catsden at texas.net (Lee Cavett) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) References: <3.0.1.32.20000407123658.00de7fb4@es01-aus.bmc.com> Message-ID: <38F0EBD2.DCD3EFE2@texas.net> If I recall correctly, Slaine was trying to submit "mac-tire" as a byname not a patronymic, and had found something somewhere that indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf. Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that much. Donal Kathleen O'Brien wrote: > > >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the > >names and lack of documentation of the construction. Also, she had checked > >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway. > > > >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't > >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of > >dated reference for the surname. "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from > >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle > ages" > >which is probably adequate. Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists > >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire, > >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.) Also: > Black, > >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p > >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to > >1513. > > Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of > the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine > construction" precedent. > > If I remember correctly, is a feminine name. > > Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic t-saoir> as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'. > > So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine > patronymic byname. In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or > Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally. And > since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form is > not registerable. > > There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are > registerable. Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning, > language/culture, time period, etc.)? Her preferences will indicate what > direction she should go with this name. Whether to change it to an > Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle to > 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, is the later spelling), > whether to change the particle to or , etc. > > >I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more. Thanks for your concern > >and diligence on behalf of your submitters. > > I'd like to thank you as well. It's so helpful to the submitters when > someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission. > Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something > registered that she likes. > > Mari, Bordure > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. -- "All kings is mostly rapscallions." Mark Twain (1835-1910) - The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn "?, is r?mh?r ? neart mar fhathach; ach is r?dhroch ? a us?id mar fhathach..." (O, it is excellent to have a giant's strength, but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant...) William Shakespeare (translated to the Irish - every once in a while even the Sassenachs come up with a good line) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 10 01:30:08 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) In-Reply-To: <200004071937.OAA15952@blackstar.ansteorra.org> from Jennifer Smith at "Apr 7, 2000 01:28:37 pm" Message-ID: <200004100830.BAA17292@agora.rdrop.com> > The badge has changed to "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules > maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper". Will that work > on an Or background? Or would fieldless be better? Also, her > original drawing had the tail erect -- I'm not sure if that should be > explicitly blazoned, or changed (no definition of 'couchant' I can find > references the tail at all). Fieldless. Not for style problems, but to clear conflict. "Or, a wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper" is in conflict with James the Fox - July of 1971: Or, a fox rampant guardant gules. Only one CD for posture change. However, if you remove the field you have the second, and clearing, CD. Nothing else would seem to conflict with "A wolf couchant reguardant gules maintaining in its mouth a sword fesswise proper" as a fieldless badge. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 10 06:40:22 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:40:22 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine) Message-ID: <76.2d4de21.262333c6@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/2000 3:36:50 PM Central Daylight Time, catsden at texas.net writes: > the submitter had found something somewhere that > indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf. True. From the documentation: _A Pronouncing and Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language_, Malcolm MacLennan (University Press, Aberdeen, 1979, photolithographic reproduction of the first edition, 1925, published by John Grant, Edinburgh), p 610 shows: wolf, s. madadh-allahd; mac-tire; faol Also _Book of Irish Names_, Coghlan, R et al, (Sterling Pub Co, NY,NY, 1989) p 127 in chapter "Root Words" shows: Mac-tire (macteera), a wolf; *micteera, victeera* (Kathri is back now---) Coghlan is no longer allowed as a name source (due to proven inaccuracy and unreliability), and a dictionary definition does not prove that a word was ever used as a name. So the existing documentation doesn't work. I think the submitter should be advised to document the name she wants any way she can, without worrying about meaning, and register the arms she wants if they don't conflict. If she believes they are canting arms, that's fine, especially if they really are. Either way, the College of Heralds will have done its job. > Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that > much. Me, too! I don't remember this much about submissions that went through last month! Never mind 1996! Kathri, * ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 10 07:10:16 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:10:16 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Would someone check a Bahlow reference? Message-ID: In a message dated 4/9/2000 1:57:01 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net writes: > Here's what Bahlow has, verbatim: Thanks, Daniel, and to Magnus for the private post, as well. This reference has been checked. Kathri, * ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Apr 10 21:52:59 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:52:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: Herald authorization Message-ID: This is from Sir Kief, reprinted with permission. I thank him for his sane and convenient policy. Even though I don't set foot on the list field, and I have no authorization card, I still plan to be cautious near the field, as fighters do occasionally come to the ropes. I plan to keep an eye on the combat constantly -- as a field herald, I have to anyway, to see when there is victory -- and I think anyone, authorized or no, ought to do the same when in reach of the list field. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:09:19 CDT From: Kief av Kiersted To: tmcd at jump.net Subject: Re: Fwd: Herald authorization Heilsa Good my Brother Daniel...! You did ask: >>Please clear something up for me. Does a herald have to have >>an authorization card, even if he never steps on the list field >>and makes all calls from outside? >> >>DdL If the herald never enters the field then they do not have to have an Authorization Card. The AC is necessary for those folks that put themselves "in harm's way"...even in a manner that would practically never bring them into combat range. Entering the field of combat or the melee field on "official" business entertains a slight risk of injury even between bouts or, in the case of melee, between battles. The AC insures that (hopefully) the herald, waterbearer, et cetera has been informed of when they can enter the field and what the basic marshal's commands are all about. I do hope that this explains my position on the AC for many of our non-contact participants. W?s ?u H?l kinsman...! Kief - EM Ansteorra "Better the Hammer than the nail..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From ly_juliana at hotmail.com Tue Apr 11 19:34:30 2000 From: ly_juliana at hotmail.com (Dianna Fowler) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:34:30 PDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - World Geography Class Message-ID: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> Please excuse me, my daughter needs to talk with someone that has immigrated from the former USSR. This is for a freshman world geography class project. Thank you for your time, Juliana Foulare mka Dianna Fowler Ravensfort Ansteorra ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Tue Apr 11 21:56:17 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:56:17 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question References: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Good evening to all, I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) Also, I am trying to submit my name as Rufus Guthrie. The persona would be lowland Scots Late 14th Century. Would Rufus be to early? I can find a source saying William II was nicknamed Rufus approx. 1118. Is there too much of a gap here? Thanks for the help, Rufus, at least for now!!! ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 11 21:33:39 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> from Kendall Johnson at "Apr 11, 2000 09:56:17 pm" Message-ID: <200004120433.VAA09908@agora.rdrop.com> > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per Saltire sable > and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) Spelling is fine, you only need to capitalize the first word in the blazon (SCA standard is that only Or gets the capital letter), and we'll need a tincture for that cross before it can be checked. > Also, I am trying to submit my name as Rufus Guthrie. The persona would be > lowland Scots Late 14th Century. Would Rufus be to early? I can find a > source saying William II was nicknamed Rufus approx. 1118. Is there too much > of a gap here? Lowland?? Cool! Guthrie is great. Black's _The Surnames of Scotland_ has a large entry on the name, dating it first from 1299, through the middle ages after that, and giving quite a few alternative spellings throughout. No worries on that, the spelling "Guthrie" is dated 1299, 1348, 1388, the spelling "Guthre" is found in 1464 and 1473, and back to "Gutherie" in 1624. Your chosen spelling should be very acceptible for the late 14th century (see 1388 dating above). Rufus, unfortunately, is a problem. It seems to have been used exclusively as a nickname before the 19th c. You could then be Rufus Guthrie, but Rufus won't fly as a medieval personal name. Allow me to suggest the article "13th & 14th Century Scottish Names" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/symonFreser/scottish14/ as a place to peruse dated Scottish names which would make good personal names. Here's what the Academy of Saint Gabriel had to say on : was originally a Latin byname meaning 'red(-haired)'; it survived as a rare surname at least into the 19th century. [3] We have no evidence that it was used as a given name much before the 19th century [4]. Therefore, we cannot recommend that your friend uses as a given name, no matter what his hair color is. [3] Bardsley, Charles, _A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames_ (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1980); s.n. Rufus. [4] Dunkling, Leslie and William Gosling, _The New American Dictionary of First Names_ (New York: Signet Books, 1983); s.n. Rufus. Of course, a man with a very common personal name, like Ihon (John) or William or Thomas, would most likely be known by his nickname more than his given name for the same reasons that modern men named John or Robert often have nicknames. So the name "William Rufus Guthrie" is not only a fine Scottish Lowlands name for the late 14th century, it's also one which would result in the bearer being called Rufus to difference him from all those other Williams out there. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Tue Apr 11 22:04:50 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:04:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Rufus Guthrie References: <20000412023430.41262.qmail@hotmail.com> <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Message-ID: <38F403F2.6260@txcyber.com> Greetings Rufus in the far West of our kingdom in the fair shire of Adlersruhe. William the Conquerer was succeeded by his son William called Rufus. He was an very unusual king. Rufus is found in Scotland as a last name but it probably wasn't used as a first name historically. That having been said it can be used as a first or given name in the SCA because of the saints by that name. If you want it, it is registerable, if not 100% historically accurate. From Laurels Letters February 1994 LoAR under Middle Kingdom acceptances "Rufus of Stamford. Name and device. Per pale argent and sable, two cedar trees counterchanged on a chief wavy Or three arrowheads inverted sable, and a base azure. As noted in the 1990 registration of Rufus Barbarossa, a Rufus of Capua was honored as a martyr in the Sarum calendar and several 15th century monastic calendars. Rufus would thus appear to be an acceptable given name." Morlet, Marie-Therese. Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de L'Ancienne Gaule du VI au XII Siecle. Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique: Paris, 1972. Volume 2 page 99 under Rufus dates the name to 541-549 AD. Book of Saints by Benedictine monks of St. Augustine Abbey, Ramsgate, 6th ed., A. & C. Black Ltd. London, 1989. There are several saints named Rufus among these: Rufus of Metz 400 AD Rufus of Capua 295 AD Rufus of Avignon 200 AD Rufus of Rome 90 AD As for Guthrie Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland, page 333 under Guthrie gives Adam de Guthrie from 1348. So much for Rufus Guthrie. Per saltire sable and ermine, a cross bottony. What color is the cross? I am guessing Or because of the field contrast and argent would get lost in the ermine field. A cross bottony must also be checked against a cross crosslet among others. A cross as a sole primary charge can be very nasty to check and clear of conflict. There is only one per saltire sable and ermine registered as a field. yours in service Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Tue Apr 11 21:11:32 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa43b$70cef3e0$d264fea9@vulcan> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per > Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) A cross bottony *what*? We need a tincture for the cross. Just to be sure, you might want to describe it in plain English. To be sure of what's been said so far, "per saltire" is a division of the field that looks like (set a fixed-width font if necessary): \ / X / \ The top and bottom slices are black, and the side slices are ermine (white background containing black ermine spots). Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Wed Apr 12 08:00:31 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:00:31 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question References: Message-ID: <001b01bfa48f$d9a7e1c0$d264fea9@vulcan> sorry, forgot about the cross. It would be counter charged over all. thanks again, Rufus ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > > I need help checking a device for conflicts. The blazon is Per > > Saltire sable and Ermine a cross bottony (sp?) > > A cross bottony *what*? We need a tincture for the cross. > > Just to be sure, you might want to describe it in plain English. To > be sure of what's been said so far, "per saltire" is a division of the > field that looks like (set a fixed-width font if necessary): > > \ / > X > / \ > > The top and bottom slices are black, and the side slices are ermine > (white background containing black ermine spots). > > Daniel de Lincolia > -- > Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; > if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. > "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- > thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. > > ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 12 09:19:54 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:19:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict Check and Name question Message-ID: <200004121619.LAA19153@serv1.jump.net> Rufus / "Kendall Johnson" rote: > the cross. It would be counter charged over all. "Counterchanged", not "countercharged". In the past, and I think sometimes in real-world armory, "overall" has had at least two meanings, including the meaning you intend. Currently in the SCA, it means solely "a charge partially overlying another charge and partially directly on the field". Since there is only one charge in this design, there can be no overall charges. Final blazon: Per saltire sable and ermine, a cross bottony counterchanged. I have one other armorial style note: some people who have gone for ermine have regretted it the first time they went to paint, embroider, or otherwise realize the design. One person, coloring N copies of his submission form, said "I repent me of my sin of ermine", and changed the submission on the spot. You might want to consider this factor. > Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; > if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. > "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- > thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) And with unquoted line breaks too. Unfortunately, you're not alone in the club. When replying to a message, please use your mail composing editor (delete key, select-block-and-delete, whatever) to trim the quoted text to the minimum necessary to establish the context of your reply. Note that I quoted only one line of yours, because that's all I needed. Also, please put replies *after* the quote, because it makes more sense that way. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 12 10:52:16 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:52:16 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: Heraldry submissions (Another typo.) Message-ID: In a message dated 4/11/2000 5:39:37 PM Central Daylight Time, debell at txcyber.com writes: > From ILOI 0300 currently under commentary > 17) Ricardo Estaban de Salamanca new name. > The name is Esteban in Elsbeth's article on Spanish names > which I have in front of me as well as in Melcon'a book. > > If this is a typo (snip) It's a typo. The forms and documentation all have Esteban with an "e" in the middle. Correction will be documented in the April Gazette (if Aelfwyn is kind) and in the AICC. (I got it right on his device in the April Gazette!) Kathri * * I think I need to make a typing test part of the application for this job. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Doug Bell Subject: Heraldry submissions Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:39:43 -0500 Size: 1646 URL: From rayasmith at yahoo.com Wed Apr 12 15:41:16 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check Message-ID: <20000412224116.20872.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian_Smith at Dell.com wrote: > From: Brian_Smith at Dell.com > To: rayasmith at yahoo.com > Subject: RE: BG - Tuesday Night Heraldic > Consultation > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:45:26 -0500 > > Ray, > > I consulted with, you I believe, last night on a > badge. It was Fieldless on > bend a lion's jambe (aka paw, leg) argent erased. I > have gone to the SCA > hearldy web site and attempted to search all of > their forms for "lion's > paw", and the other two names, but I didnt come up > with any hits. Usually > I'ld be happy with that but I'm not sure that I'm > searching correctly. Can > you either search for conflicts on this badge or > better yet suggest which > form and what sentax to use in the search? > > Thanks, > Don Brian Cameron > Can anyone conflict-check this badge for me, as I still have spotty and limited access to the net and don't have time to check this at the library, pretty please? Thank you - Andre de Chartres ===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 12 17:03:13 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:03:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check Message-ID: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Andre / Ray Smith wrote: > RE: BG - Tuesday Night Heraldic Oh, dear. Did that go on anyway, with all the rain? I assumed it was going to be called off! > Don Brian Cameron / Brian_Smith at Dell.com wrote: > > Fieldless on bend a lion's jambe (aka paw, leg) argent erased. ... Problem (as is usual when someone isn't completely familiar with armory; better in such cases to describe it in plain English). Is it a jambe on a bend? If so, the blazon says the jambe and the bend are the same tincture, so the leg would disappear (and the badge would be returned). Is it a jambe bendwise in some way? > > to the SCA hearldy web site and attempted to search all of their > > forms for "lion's paw", and the other two names, but I didnt come > > up with any hits. The categories start with "LEG AND FOOT-BEAST" in the internal coding. However, the primary charge here is the bend couped, if there is a bend at all. (You can't have a plain bend on a fieldless badge: there's no edge of the shield to end the ordinary.) In such a case, the leg is a tertiary and will at most contribute 1 CD. A thingy on a bend couped is not any period style badge I've seen. Does the client want just a lion's jambe in some orientation and tincture? That would be fine style, and they could display it on any tincture they liked. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Apr 12 18:49:02 2000 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:49:02 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check In-Reply-To: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000412204902.006aaef0@admin.stedwards.edu> At 07:03 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does the client want just a lion's jambe in some orientation and >tincture? That would be fine style, and they could display it on any >tincture they liked. He wants (Fieldless) A lion's jambe erased bendwise argent. Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu Wed Apr 12 19:03:34 2000 From: wendye2 at admin.stedwards.edu (Wendy Erisman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:03:34 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: RE: Badge conflict check In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000412204902.006aaef0@admin.stedwards.edu> References: <200004130003.TAA20647@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000412210334.006a37f8@admin.stedwards.edu> At 08:49 PM 4/12/00 -0500, I wrote: >He wants (Fieldless) A lion's jambe erased bendwise argent. I don't see any conflicts. There aren't all that many items under Leg--Beast in the Ordinary. The closest two are: Berhtrad Athalbrand von Strassburg (Fieldless) A lion's gambe bendwise erased argent, sustaining by the blade a sword bendwise sinister sable 1 CD for fieldless vs. fieldless; 1 for adding sustained charge Elsa de Lyon Azure, a lion's jambe erased bendwise shackled and chained with a broken chain within a bordure embattled argent 1 CD for fieldless vs. fielded; 1 for adding bordure Gwenllian HL Gwenllian ferch Maredudd, Armillary Herald Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Wed Apr 12 19:35:10 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:35:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - name documentation fun - Sla'ine Message-ID: <200004130300.WAA19965@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Okay, I've had a chance to talk with Sla'ine about her name. She'd started paperwork after "an Mac-Tire" bounced to try "Sla'ine the Wolf". She did find a reference to an Irish family that in late period used the surname "Fox", with the chief of the family using "The Fox", due to some ancestor in the 11th century who became known as "an Sionnach (the fox)". This does not look to me to be great documentation for this type of name, but I'm sort of at a loss as to where to go next. I believe she will accept either Sla'ine the Wolf or Sla'ine . -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 12 23:39:19 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:39:19 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - name documentation fun - Sla'ine References: <200004130300.WAA19965@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <38F56B97.42D@txcyber.com> Sla'ine ingen (Patronymic) mac tire might just work. It is all Gaelic and mac tire meaning son of the land (wolf) may be able to be used as a descriptive byname refering to the father or for the grandfather. Some Patronymics for the fathers name that refer to wolves. Conall - strong as a wolf Conamail - wolflike Congal - fierce as a wolf Conma'el - wolf warrior If you wanted to leave Gaelic there are Slanina MacTyre or Slanina le Wulf (Wolf) Mari has been working with Gaelic lately so get her opinion on this. Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Thu Apr 13 20:12:53 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:12:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - OT: Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus Message-ID: This is completely off-topic for any heraldic list. I am a *bad*, *bad* man. Mistress Jaelle will be punishing me momentarily. http://www.guerilla.u-net.com/mp/fz.htm is a Web page for Guerilla Films. One thing they are offering is "Monty Python's Fliegender Zirkus", two MP episodes that were filmed for German television in 1971 and 1972. The first one is in German ("What English scripts? I was told you all speak German.") with English subtitles. The second is in English. Some skits are from the series, some later were done at the Hollywood Bowl, some are unique. 'Graham Chapman said of the programmes: "It was probably a stage further than any of the BBC TV shows in terms of absurdity and peculiar starts, and it lacked any sort of thread to keep the audience sane."' '"The happiest event since the invention of brain surgery." -- Pisso the Alcoholic Dog' It is available by mail order only, in VHS NTSC (US and anywhere civilized) and VHS PAL (anywhere civilised). With Visa, MasterCard, JCB, or Switch, it's #10.99 with free air-mail shipping and handling. At current exchange rates, that's US$17.50. (It's $28 by cheque.) That Web page again: http://www.guerilla.u-net.com/mp/fz.htm Daniel "yah dee buckety, rum ping kadoo, ni ni ni, yaaoooo!" de Lincolia (Note: I am well aware of the original meaning of "momentarily" and that the US is excluded from both.) -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Fri Apr 14 07:29:09 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:29:09 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - A new Star in the future Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C304@es05-hou.bmc.com> Unto the members of the Ansteorran College of Heralds does Francois la Flamme, Star Prinipal Herald, for a short time more, sends heartfelt greetings! Their Royal Magesties informed the applicants and myself of Their choice. Honorable Lord Borek will be the next Star. The transfer of office will be done at Crown Tournement. I have enjoyed leading such a fine group but am looking forward to the release from office. Thank you all for your help in during my term in office. Without your hard work , I would not have looked so good. Thank you. --Francois, Star/sable roundel ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From morganson at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 08:10:12 2000 From: morganson at hotmail.com (Jerry Dreifuerst) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:10:12 GMT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list Message-ID: <20000414151012.89670.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings Heralds of Ansteorra, Othar here. I recently took on the duties of Herald for Stargate. Griffin ap Rhys (of past posting as Robert de Mohun) has been helping me organize and handle the reams of paper and volumes of books that come with the office. Your helpful hints and comments will be very welcome. Yours in service, Centurion Othar Morganson Othar Morganson, of the Barony of the Stargate, in the Kingdom of Ansteorra, may be reached at: morganson at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Fri Apr 14 11:02:11 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:02:11 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list References: <20000414151012.89670.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38F75D23.1DF8@txcyber.com> Othar Remember the most useful book for heralds is the SCA Pic Dic. Herald's tables should always have trays of food to lure unsuspecting members of the populace into range of the attack heralds. Best of luck to ye Magnus von Lubeck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From culn97 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 14 13:56:17 2000 From: culn97 at yahoo.com (Rod Jackson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Hello to list Message-ID: <20000414205617.8414.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com> Othar, Chocolate makes real good bait!! Cullinn --- Doug Bell wrote: > Othar > > Remember the most useful book for heralds is the SCA > Pic Dic. > > Herald's tables should always have trays of food to > lure > unsuspecting members of the populace into range of > the > attack heralds. > > Best of luck to ye > Magnus von Lubeck > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to > perform mailing list tasks. > ===== Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Mon Apr 17 13:03:19 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:03:19 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge Message-ID: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Can someone help me conflict check this, and/or tell me if there's anything that needs to be changed? Fieldless, on a lozenge dovetailed purpure an equal-armed celtic cross couped plain argent. (May be a bit wordy -- it's the thingy on the bottles in http://www.generich.com/elfsea/GulfWar00/caelin-gw00-41.jpg) -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Mon Apr 17 14:37:08 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:37:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge References: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: <38FB8404.3F3@txcyber.com> A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. The device would become Purpure, an equal armed Celtic cross argent. LoAR May 1996 Returns - DRACHENWALD Ragna Kolgrimsdotti [(Fieldless) On an oval azure a horseshoe argent] "If a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge: such a design is interpretable as a display of arms, with the tertiary as a primary. For instance, we don't permit [Fieldless] On a lozenge argent a fleur-de-lys gules: since the lozenge is a medium for heraldic display, this looks like a display of Argent a fleur-de-lys gules. 1) Purpure, an equal armed Celtic cross argent. Gormflait Suiban ni Cuallachta January of 1973: Gyronny Or and azure, a Celtic cross argent, fimbriated sable. I think the field and fimbriation would give this 2 CDs since the fimbriation is treated as another cross on the first one. 2) It could have an argent field. The argent field looks to conflict with George Emerson True March of 1988 (via the East): "Argent, on a lozenge palewise throughout purpure, a winged lion rampant guardant to sinister, wings elevated and addorsed, argent." There should be a CD for type for the dovetailing but I am not sure about a CD for throughout. 3) If could have an Or field. The Or field looks to be clear of conflict. If you like one of the three alternatives here grab Daniel or Gwenllian and get one of them to do another conflict check. Yours in service Magnus von L?beck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Mon Apr 17 15:09:31 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:09:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge Message-ID: <200004172209.RAA18245@serv1.jump.net> Magnus / Doug Bell wrote: > A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. A charged *plain* lozenge. Note the precedent quote: "If a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge". I don't see how a "lozenge dovetailed", the instant case, could possibly be considered a "medium for heraldic display". Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jds-emma at operamail.com Mon Apr 17 15:08:57 2000 From: jds-emma at operamail.com (Jennifer Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:08:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge In-Reply-To: <38FB8404.3F3@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <200004172214.RAA07158@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Magnus von L?beck wrote: > A charged lozenge cannot be used with a fieldless badge. > The device would become Purpure, an equal armed Celtic > cross argent. > LoAR May 1996 > Returns - DRACHENWALD Ragna Kolgrimsdotti > [(Fieldless) On an oval azure a horseshoe argent] "If > a charge can be considered a medium for heraldic display, > it may not bear a tertiary in a fieldless badge: such a > design is interpretable as a display of arms, with the > tertiary as a primary. For instance, we don't permit > [Fieldless] On a lozenge argent a fleur-de-lys gules: > since the lozenge is a medium for heraldic display, > this looks like a display of Argent a fleur-de-lys gules. A plain lozenge would be obvious, yes, as would a roundel or an oval, etc, but a lozenge dovetailed? That was where I was most unclear. It doesn't look to *me* like a medium for heraldic display, but that's why I'm asking. :) > 2) It could have an argent field. > The argent field looks to conflict with George Emerson > True March of 1988 (via the East): > "Argent, on a lozenge palewise throughout purpure, a > winged lion rampant guardant to sinister, wings elevated > and addorsed, argent." > There should be a CD for type for the dovetailing > but I am not sure about a CD for throughout. Of the suggested alternates, this is the best one. -Emma -- Jennifer Smith jds-emma at operamail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 17 20:10:52 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - conflict check badge In-Reply-To: <200004172007.PAA04914@blackstar.ansteorra.org> from Jennifer Smith at "Apr 17, 2000 03:03:19 pm" Message-ID: <200004180310.UAA11705@agora.rdrop.com> > Fieldless, on a lozenge dovetailed purpure an equal-armed celtic > cross couped plain argent. Stick the fieldless designation into brackets. Consider it a scribal standard, not part of the blazon. All right, by putting a complex line on the lozenge you remove the appearance of a shape for heraldic display, and can therefore have a lozenge as a fieldless badge. I give you this registration from February 1999: Kenric Bjarnarson (Fieldless) On a lozenge ploye, two pheons in pale conjoined at the base throughout Or. The blazon looks fine, since the cross is most definitely couped to follow the edges of the lozenge. No consideration of conflict, but the client might wish to know about this one: Brenna Lowri o Ruthin - January of 1990 (via Meridies): (Fieldless) On a lozenge engrailed Or, an equal-armed Celtic cross azure. I wouldn't even consider a visual confusion on this, though, with the totally different colours and line treatment. It's just my policy to inform clients about similar stuff which is already registered. This is quite clear. Makes a great wine label, too. :) - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cahira_of_bonwicke at yahoo.com Mon Apr 17 23:02:33 2000 From: cahira_of_bonwicke at yahoo.com (Cahira) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... Message-ID: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings! I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my barony is trying to document her name, and I don't know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything you can give me would be wonderful and greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cahira of Bonwicke __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 17 23:34:03 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... In-Reply-To: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> from Cahira at "Apr 17, 2000 11:02:33 pm" Message-ID: <200004180634.XAA27450@agora.rdrop.com> > I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know > almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my > barony is trying to document her name, and I don't > know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina > and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything > you can give me would be wonderful and greatly > appreciated. Start at the Academy of Saint Gabriel Library: http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/ or The Medieval Names archive: http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/ I found in the article "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html which is linked to both the above pages. and are in the article "Flemish Names from Bruges, 1400-1600" at http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/ And is in "Sixteenth Century Norman Names" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/cateline/norman16.html Caterina is also found in the Italian women's names listings on those pages. It's also found in the article "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_" at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/talan/reaney/ Remember that many English names are rooted in Normandy, so that's a good reference to check for French names, too. You're doing great. I got up in front of my shire and said, "I don't really know much yet, but I know where to get help." They made me their herald. Now I'm helping other people. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Wed Apr 19 05:28:21 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:28:21 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <7a.41ac14b.262f0065@aol.com> Please let me know if this device conflicts with anything: Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. Thanks, Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From TRayburn at healthaxis.com Wed Apr 19 05:40:25 2000 From: TRayburn at healthaxis.com (Rayburn, Timothy) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:40:25 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34B51@NRHCRE00> Precedent Question : I know that Fleur-de-lys are stylized Lilies. Do they conflict check against them? If they conflict check against, are lillies subject to Fleur-de-lys precedents? If they are subject to such, then this would run afoul of the reservation of 3 or more gold fleur-de-lys being reserved for France, right? Timothy -----Original Message----- From: Kathri at aol.com [SMTP:Kathri at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 7:28 AM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Please let me know if this device conflicts with anything: Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. Thanks, Kathri, Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 19 08:18:52 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <200004191518.KAA18977@serv1.jump.net> I haven't checked precedents, but I would not expect a natural lily and a fleur-de-lys to conflict. I believe that, despite the name, the origins of the FDL are somewhat obscure. However, if there was no CD, then they'd pretty much be considered artistic variants, and the prohibition of France would indeed apply. That was an excellent point to bring up and good thinking. Daniel "broad*arrow*, broad*arrow*, broad*arrow*" de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 19 10:48:32 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:48:32 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fleur-de-lys References: <200004191518.KAA18977@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: <38FDF170.1AA8@txcyber.com> As Daniel often suggests the Pic Dic was consulted. The Lily and Fleur-de-lys are separate charges in period so they are heraldically different. That certainly eliminates lots of items to check. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Wed Apr 19 11:10:54 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:10:54 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) References: <7a.41ac14b.262f0065@aol.com> Message-ID: <38FDF6AE.56AC@txcyber.com> Kathri Aelfraed Hawkmoon December of 1987 (via Atenveldt): Argent, on a bend sinister, doubly cotised, azure a hawk rising, wings displayed and inverted, and an increscent moon, both palewise, argent. Argent, on a bend sinister cotised azure three lilies Or. There is a CD for changes to the tertiaries on the bend and should be a CD for double vs single cotising for addition of a secondary. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Wed Apr 19 11:29:00 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) Message-ID: <200004191829.NAA02974@serv1.jump.net> Magnus / Doug Bell wrote: > and should be a CD for double vs single cotising for > addition of a secondary. To be more precise, for changing the number of an existing group of secondaries (X.4.f). Daniel de L -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Wed Apr 19 12:45:00 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:45:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Documentation help... References: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38FE0CBC.4CAC97E9@flash.net> Cahira wrote: > I am the (relatively) new herald in Bonwicke and know > almost nothing as of yet. One of the people in my > barony is trying to document her name, and I don't > know where to look to help her. The name is Katarina > and if it helps, she has a French persona. Anything > you can give me would be wonderful and greatly > appreciated. Generally speaking, French feminine names end in -e and not -a. Modern French uses "C" for the "K" sound, but Teceangl was able to supply several examples beginning with "K" so you should be all set. Nothing in Dauzat's "Noms de Personne" that's close. Lots of other "Catherine" variants. --Perronnelle -- A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 20 01:09:57 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Conflict check requested (Eleanor) In-Reply-To: <8105C68DCFBDD111805500104B22762D02F34B51@NRHCRE00> from "Rayburn, Timothy" at "Apr 19, 2000 07:40:25 am" Message-ID: <200004200809.BAA20951@agora.rdrop.com> > I know that Fleur-de-lys are stylized Lilies. Do they conflict check > against them? > > If they conflict check against, are lillies subject to Fleur-de-lys > precedents? > > If they are subject to such, then this would run afoul of the reservation of > 3 or more gold fleur-de-lys being reserved for France, right? Thanks for the call, Timothy. Unlike Daniel, I did go check precedents. :P I found this back in Bambi's stuff, nothing since: [One commenter] has shown there was apparently a difference noted by heralds in period between the stylized fleur-de-lys and the natural lily flower since the arms of Eton College contain both used in a cadency context. Under the new rules this is enough to determine that a difference of type may be granted, assuming no real possibility of confusion. (LoAR 17 Jun 90, p. 4) So no worries there. No problem of conflict (bends and bends sinister are X.2. different), but I thought you might want to know about this one: Rowan le Beau - March of 1998 (via AEthelmearc): Argent, on a bend cotised azure a lily palewise Or between two others argent. It's my personal policy to notify clients of such things as exact outline and mirror-imaging, even though it has nothing to do with conflict. (Keeps 'em from coming back to me and saying, "I just saw my EXACT device only in different colours! Why didn't you TELL me???") It's clear. - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 11:10:13 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Katarina References: <20000418060233.11679.qmail@web3401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38FF4805.68BB@txcyber.com> Some additional arguments for Katarina Medieval German Given Names from Silesia Women's Names by Talan Gwynek http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowFem.html under Katherine Katharina 1348 Katerina 1350 Morlet, Marie-Therese. Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de L'Ancienne Gaule du VI au XII Siecle. Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique: Paris, 1972. Volume 2 page 32 under Catherina dates the name to 1113, Caterina to 1113 and Katherina to the 12th century. De Felice, Emidio. dizionario dei nomi italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori: Milan, 1986. Page 102 under Caterina lists Catarina as a variant. Withycombe page 186 under Katharine gives Katharina and Katerina as Latin forms. Katharina (the Latin) looks to be the closest that could be used with a French name even French forms favor the C over the K. Catarina could also be used with a French name. You could try an argument for the spelling Katarina based on this information. Magnus von L?beck ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 15:05:49 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs Message-ID: <38FF7F3D.6789@txcyber.com> Daniel commented on the problems with using a fur on a cloth display. To make life easier with semys and furs when they are going on a shield make an cardboard outline template of the fur spot or charge. Then you can spray paint with the right color as many as you need on the shield. The same outline template can be used with fabric paint on banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so many devices. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu Thu Apr 20 15:18:42 2000 From: sfriedemann at students.wisc.edu (Sara L Friedemann) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:18:42 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs In-Reply-To: <38FF7F3D.6789@txcyber.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> > banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed > more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so > many devices. I agree with everything Magnus said, but this. Folks seem to think it's hard to register simple devices. Luckily for us, that's not true. I've got three armorial submissions going up from my Barony: "Vert, three bendlets enhanced argent," "Per saltire gules and azure," and "[Fieldless] A lion rampant vert." All three have been conflict checked and are clear, and not one of them uses furs. -Aryanhwy (who used ermine on her device because she liked it--and because it plays on my badge.) "Purpure, a bordure ermine" "[Fieldless] An ermine statant purpure." -- Sara L. Friedemann * http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann -- "He knew his life was incomplete for he had yet to suffer." Strawbs, _Hero & Heroine_ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From debell at txcyber.com Thu Apr 20 15:26:29 2000 From: debell at txcyber.com (Doug Bell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:26:29 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs References: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> Message-ID: <38FF8415.2E13@txcyber.com> What came to mind with furs was using cats, dragons, and saltires in simple devices. They have been registered to death in the SCA. Magnus ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rayasmith at yahoo.com Thu Apr 20 15:39:37 2000 From: rayasmith at yahoo.com (Ray Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Client's follow-up to submission - help? Message-ID: <20000420223937.25581.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings all. I have had a request from one of my fellow Bryn Gwladians to find out what (if anything) befell her name submission. I checked the SCA Laurel's page and the Ansteorra page and found that the name "Celestria Monelyght le Dragon" was in the ILoI July '99 issue (item #7, I believe?), accepted at Kingdom September '99, and in the Ansteorran Gazette October '99. The kingdom page has it listed as in progress. Is there any way to find out if this has been accepted (or rejected) sometime this year at Laurel (the most recent back issue of the thing at Laurel was December '99), or is this the best I can do at this time? Andre de Chartres, Bryn Gwlad ===== "Everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Thu Apr 20 15:55:35 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:55:35 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Client's follow-up to submission - help? In-Reply-To: <20000420223937.25581.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000420175535.00f132d4@es01-aus.bmc.com> >Is there any way to find out if this has been accepted >(or rejected) sometime this year at Laurel (the most >recent back issue of the thing at Laurel was December >'99), or is this the best I can do at this time? In the January 2000 LoAR, Under Acceptances (for Ansteorra) is listed: Celestria Monelyght le Dragon. Name. So her name passed. I don't know when the LoARs will be up on the Laurel page. I have Jan & Feb in .rtf and WordPerfect formats and can forward them to you. Just let me know which format you prefer. The March and April LoARs are not out yet. (And I don't think I've received the Feb LoAR in hardcopy yet - just in electronic form.) Mari, Bordure ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Thu Apr 20 21:11:08 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:11:08 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Furs References: <000f01bfab16$6314c900$70326880@wctc.net> Message-ID: <38FFD4DB.6211B5C6@texas.net> Sara L Friedemann wrote: > > banners and cloth items. Furs are going to be needed > > more to avoid conflicts since we are registering so > > many devices. > > I agree with everything Magnus said, but this. I must agree. This is right up there with the people who say that all the possible combinations of notes have been used up, so there will be no more new simple melodies. It ain't so. --Alisandre "still humming" Oliphant ...someone else who's heard of the Strawbs? wow ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From jodimc at texas.net Fri Apr 21 11:36:06 2000 From: jodimc at texas.net (Jodi McMaster) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:36:06 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette Message-ID: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Okay, they're in the mail. I had them ready for labeling and mailing a week ago, but was beset by migraine. Seems that holders of this office have to be migraneurs--ah, which reminds me, guys, I'm only *acting* Obelisk--get those cards and letters in the mail--and we will consider those not afflicted by the headache menace. AElfwyn ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Sat Apr 22 13:05:07 2000 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:05:07 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette In-Reply-To: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> References: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Message-ID: >Seems that holders of this office >have to be migraneurs--... >AElfwyn I don't recall listing that as a requirement... ;-) Glad to hear you're better though. Etienne ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From charlene at flash.net Sat Apr 22 17:38:43 2000 From: charlene at flash.net (Charlene Charette) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:38:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette References: <39009F96.B74EEB94@texas.net> Message-ID: <39024612.F221B4C2@flash.net> "Darin K. Herndon" wrote: > > >Seems that holders of this office > >have to be migraneurs--... > >AElfwyn > > I don't recall listing that as a requirement... ;-) > Glad to hear you're better though. > > Etienne I get migraines, but I refuse to apply for Obelisk. I'm taking some time off. :-) --Perronnelle -- A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Mon Apr 24 06:59:57 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:59:57 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - 0400 Ansteorran Gazette Message-ID: In a message dated 4/22/2000 7:41:23 PM Central Daylight Time, charlene at flash.net writes: > > >Seems that holders of this office > > >have to be migraneurs--... > > >AElfwyn I didn't get migraines while I was Obelisk, although the Gazette was sometimes a headache all unto itself. Migraines must be one of the many things Etienne added. Kathri, ex-Obelisk, almost ex-Asterisk ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cbackus at enid.com Mon Apr 24 13:48:36 2000 From: cbackus at enid.com (Chris Backus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:48:36 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: Message-ID: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From dmmerlick at earthlink.net Mon Apr 24 12:00:01 2000 From: dmmerlick at earthlink.net (Darius and Monica) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:00:01 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Message-ID: <390499B1.98D10256@earthlink.net> which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? Darius Chris Backus wrote: > > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From cbackus at enid.com Mon Apr 24 14:14:34 2000 From: cbackus at enid.com (Chris Backus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:14:34 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> <390499B1.98D10256@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001501bfae32$18553b60$3e4721d0@cbackus> Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. Hawkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Darius and Monica To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? > Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From editor at texas.net Mon Apr 24 12:19:25 2000 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:19:25 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage References: <001e01bfae2e$7718b5e0$5f4821d0@cbackus> Message-ID: <39049E3C.6DCD3183@texas.net> Pretty clearly nobody, especially the Achievements links. --Alisandre Chris Backus wrote: > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 12:21:57 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:21:57 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C331@es05-hou.bmc.com> At the moment, that would be me. The heraldic web page job is open for applications but in the mean time..... --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 3:49 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 12:23:23 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:23:23 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C332@es05-hou.bmc.com> You would of course ask about those specifically... well.... those have been a problem.. It would probably be better to just ask your question.... --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 4:15 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. Hawkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Darius and Monica To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > which one, the OP or the just plain heraldry? > Darius ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Mon Apr 24 15:39:10 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:39:10 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - KWHS - 60days Message-ID: It is now **60days** and counting till Knowne World Heraldic (and Scribal) Symposium, set in Houston, TX on June 23-25th, this summer, at Rice University campus. Please, get those pre-registrations in the mail, in order to reserve dorm space! One or two teachers are still needed for each of the 5 tracks (Armory, Onomastics, Administration, Calligraphy and Illumination). Please contact the autocrat or fill out the teacher registration on website. The Proceedings book deadline has been extended to May 27th, but no later. Only two articles have been received to date. If you intend to submit articles or artwork, please contact the editor to reserve space. Feel free to forward this missive as needed. For questions, please e-mail me directly. Check out the website for weekly updated teacher list, at: See you this summer! Mst. Hillary Greenslade, Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From kobrien at bmc.com Mon Apr 24 19:41:21 2000 From: kobrien at bmc.com (Kathleen O'Brien) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage In-Reply-To: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C332@es05-hou.bmc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> I've finished putting the backlog of 1999 and 2000 LoIs into HTML and have forwarded them to Francois. They should be up on the server soon. I have them in Word97 format and can email them if anyone needs them sooner than that. Next I'll HTML the LoCs and RtCs. FYI, I was told by the Virtual Scribe in September not to give him any more HTML documents until after the new server was in place. That's why these documents haven't been kept up to date over the last few months. That should now be resolved. Mari At 02:23 PM 4/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >You would of course ask about those specifically... well.... those have >been a problem.. > >It would probably be better to just ask your question.... > >--Francois > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Backus [mailto:cbackus at enid.com] >Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 4:15 PM >Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage > > >Plain, particularly the LOI and the ICC. > >Hawkins ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From darin-herndon at utulsa.edu Mon Apr 24 21:56:27 2000 From: darin-herndon at utulsa.edu (Darin K. Herndon) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:56:27 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - More Ansteorran heraldry webpage In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000424214121.00e20df8@es01-aus.bmc.com> Message-ID: Well speaking from the "I used to be in office but have unfinished work" limbo... Check out http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/gazette/index.html I just updated the site and have several past Gazettes posted in PDF format. Please note that compressed copies for download will follow. If you choose to open a file and view online, be aware; some of those files are about 1 megabyte in size. Send comments to our Acting Obelisk (ducked that one didn't I AElfwyn ;-)). Oh, and I will make the site match the standard background and text color later. Etienne ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com Tue Apr 25 14:12:30 2000 From: Wendel_Bordelon at bmc.com (Bordelon, Wendel) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:12:30 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Message-ID: <87CE6731D05DD311BB2100A0C9DCEFA60198C33F@es05-hou.bmc.com> Greetings one and all! Applications are being taken for the officer to maintain the COH web page. Also, I have put the "new" COH Web page in place. There are still some links that are not active and it still points to the same stuff the old page does. The updates for the information will happen over the next couple of weeks. If you want to help, let me know. If you want to look at the old page it can be accessed at http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/oldpage.html --Francois -----Original Message----- From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 2:19 PM To: heralds at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: ANSTHRLD - Ansteorran heraldry webpage Pretty clearly nobody, especially the Achievements links. --Alisandre Chris Backus wrote: > Who is in charge of updating the heraldry webpage? > > ============================================================================ > Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Wed Apr 26 15:03:52 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:03:52 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Reservations at KWHS Message-ID: OK Gang! I need to get some info from you all. I am not sending this e-mail out to the Knowne World, as I am only looking for an estimate. For Knowne World Heraldic Symposium, Westgate will be required to 'guarantee' a number of the dorm rooms at Rice U., in a week or so, and I have not been swamped with pre-registrations (only 7 so far). So wanted to get an idea of how many of you are *planning seriously* to attend, how many will be staying in the dorms with linens, and how many meals you will buy. Please let me know following, so I can plan accordingly. Think of this as a mini-registration (non-binding). Thanks, Hillary Greenslade (PS. if you have already sent reservation, don't need to respond.) Sample: KNOWNE WORLD HERALDIC SYMPOSIUM SCA Name/branch: Hillary Greenslade/Westgate Dorms: Fri yes Sat yes linens rental: yes Meals: Frid (dinner) yes Sat (Bkfst) no Sat (lunch) yes Sat (dinner) yes Sun(Bkfst) no Sun(lunch) yes ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Fitzmorgan at cs.com Wed Apr 26 21:21:33 2000 From: Fitzmorgan at cs.com (Fitzmorgan at cs.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:21:33 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - A bit of Ansteorran History Message-ID: <28.4d370cc.26391a4d@cs.com> Greetings from Robert Fitzmorgan Acting Herald of Northkeep I've had an interesting evening. Lord Etienne de St. Amaranth and I were transfering the files of the Heralds office and were looking through them to see what was what when we dropped through a hole into history. We found a notebook full of reports from the Ansteorran College of Heralds from Principality days through the first years of our kingdom. As I write I am looking at a report from the first meeting of the C of H of the Kingdom of Ansteorra, held at the Coronation of Oueen Willow. In this meeting they acccept the submitted arms for the "Kingdom/King of Ansteorra" as well as the arms for the Barony of Bryn Gwlad and the SHIRE of Namron. They also rejected the name of Nord aus das Strom, now known as Northkeep. This was followed by a discussion of the state of heraldry in the kingdom. At the meeting held at the second crown tourney they accept the badges for many of the awards of our Kingdom as well as arms for the Queen. In this meeting they also register arms for some who would rise to promanance in our kingdoms history. Such as: Tivar Moondragon. Sif Ironhand and Burke Kyriell MacDonald. I found an Order of Precedence from 22 February 1978 and an update to it that isn't dated but lists the following: THEGN TO ANSTEORRA Erasimierz Waspanieski 4 March 78 Clare RosMuire St. John 4 March 78 Tessa of the Gardens 4 March 78 Simon of Amber, called Mountaingate 4 March 78 Andeleon du Axegarth 4 March 78 Gwylym y Fferill-o-Caer Lleuad 4 March 78 Balthazar of Endor 5 March 78 S'Utcha ta Nuit, Neb, Meri en Heh, aka Lord Michael of the Valar Protectorate of Ragnarok 5 March 78 I've never heard of the Thegns of Ansteorra before. What was it? I've heard of a few of these people but most of these names are new to me. Who were they and what did they do to deserve this honor? Can anyone tell me anything about the "ORDER OF DUCT TAPE DERVISHES"? I'd really like to hear some stories from the early days of our kingdom. Can anyone tell me if Star Principal and the kingdom historian still have copies of these files? I've only begun to look through these files myself but there seemes to be a lot of history here. Robert Fitzmorgan Barony of Northkeep ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From nweders at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 27 06:47:00 2000 From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (N.D. Wederstrandt) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:47:00 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - V1 #404 - Thegns In-Reply-To: <200004270500.AAA14115@blackstar.ansteorra.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:21:33 EDT >From: Fitzmorgan at cs.com I found an Order of Precedence from 22 February 1978 and an update to it >that isn't dated but lists the following: > >THEGN TO ANSTEORRA > >Erasimierz Waspanieski 4 March 78 >Clare RosMuire St. John 4 March 78 >Tessa of the Gardens 4 March 78 >Simon of Amber, called Mountaingate 4 March 78 >Andeleon du Axegarth 4 March 78 >Gwylym y Fferill-o-Caer Lleuad 4 March 78 >Balthazar of Endor 5 March 78 >S'Utcha ta Nuit, Neb, Meri en Heh, aka Lord Michael of the Valar >Protectorate of Ragnarok 5 March 78 > > I've never heard of the Thegns of Ansteorra before. What was it? I've >heard of a few of these people but most of these names are new to me. Who >were they and what did they do to deserve this honor? Clare here with a few notes about Thegns... The full title was Ring Thegns of Ansteorra and the award was based on the Anglo-Saxonish tradition of bestowing Armrings to people from the Crown. The insignia for the award was a ring about 4 in across that people chose to disply worked into their belt.. It was given by the Prince an dPrncess to people who had given them support. similar to the King's Gauntlet an dthe Queen's Glove. Ansteorra was given an Anglo-Saxonish type persona if that makes sense. I'm not sure which persons you'd like information on but I'm happy to provide you with anything you have questions... Order of the Duct Tape Dervishes was given mostly as a humourous award... The insignia was a wad of duct tape suspended from a cord of duct tape. It had something to do with fighting.... > I'd really like to hear some stories from the early days of our kingdom. If you ask I can give you stories... some based on heraldry. But like old people if you want something specific I can try to respond by specifics. If not you get tired old ones..... (grin) Clare RosMuire St. John who has been lurking awhile... ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From MGreene at mpan.com Thu Apr 27 12:59:43 2000 From: MGreene at mpan.com (MGreene at mpan.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:59:43 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Prizes for KWHS Message-ID: We need prizes for the games at Knowne World Heraldic Symposium! If you have anything to contribute (think books, heraldic or scribal supplies, SCA goodies in general), then please track me down and pass these items along. I am planning to be at the following event schedule. (Sorry, this is mostly in the southern areas of kingdom..oh well). 4/29 Assembly of the Contrade Stargate 5/13 Loch Soillier Guardian Loch Soillier 5/20 Day at the Forum Raven's Fort 5/27 Steppes Warlord (Sat only) Steppes 6/3 Midsummer Fair Gates Edge 6/10 Kingdom Warlord (maybe) Bordermarch 6/17 Kings College Stonebridge Keep ** 6/24 Knowne World Heraldic (duh!) Westgate Else, pass them along to any other Stargater that will pass the prizes along to me...Kathri, Francois, Othar, Baron Michael Silverhands, etc.... Thanks, Hillary Greenslade KWHS Autocrat ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 28 10:23:40 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:23:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Re: armory check In-Reply-To: <000901bfb0a8$611c4460$0201a8c6@eirik> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Eirik asked me for a conflict check for > Per pale dovetailed azure and or a decresent argent and a mullet of > 5 points azure. It's perfectly fine to send such requests to the Ansteorran Heralds list, or SCA Heralds. I'm sending this to Anst. Her. to liven it up. Mullets are of 5 points by default. It doesn't hurt to specify it just to be sure, but it'll get stripped before going up. The SCA standard blazon is Per pale dovetailed azure and or, a decrescent argent and a mullet azure. Search strategy: It's an uncommon field. I looked in Field division - Per pale - Azure - and or There's only one "dovetailed" with "per pale", Edward d'Orleans, and he's clear (type and number). (I searched the page in Netscape via ctrl-F, for "dove".) I happened to discuss dovetailed and other complex lines of division on SCA Heralds recently, so I had a chart. I also searched some precedents. Dovetailed gets no CD from raguly, embattled, or embattled variants like "bretessed" (or I presume "counter-embattled"). Bu no "per pale" raguly or embattled either. Thus, against any registered coat anywhere in the Ordinary, we get 1 CD for the field. Thus, anything else has to be heraldically identical. That makes searching MUCH easier. In particular, I can look either at crescents or mullets, but don't have to check both. I went to Mullet - Uncharged - 1 - Azure Any charging, change of number, or change of tincture would get us the second CD needed to clear it, so this is the only category I had to check. I then used Netscape ctrl-F to look for "cres", because I can't think of anything that looks like a crescent that wouldn't have "cres" in the spelling. Only 5 items matched, no conflicts. Come to think of it, mullets can have complicated conflicts too. Some mullets get no CD from others. From a previous chart, Mullet of 3 points: illegal of 4 points versus caltrop: no CD (identical) compass star: no CD (long rays in same places) mullet of 5 pnoints: no CD of 5 points versus estoile: CD sun: CD mullet of 6 points: no CD mullet of 7 points: no CD mullet of 8 points: CD compass star: CD et cetera. However, the Ordinary category doesn't distinguish by number of points. Even "Compass star" says simply "see Mullet". So we picked up all cases. However, just to be surely paranoid, I popped over to Crescent - 1 - Argent - Decrescent (120 items) and searched for "mull". About 20 coats with both. No prob that I saw. Looks clear all around. Style comments: cliched Typical SCA. (At least the mullet isn't within and conjoined to the decrescent -- more TSCA, but at least then there's a chance of conflict with the Turkish and Singaporian flags.) - "Dovetailed" is a post-period invention. The only reason it's registerable is because it's specifically listed in the Rules for Submission as an example of non-period items that have nevertheless been registered for long enough in the SCA that Laurel has ruled them SCA-compatible. I'd normally suggest just "embattled" (that has the virtue of not having to be conflict-checked, and at least there were rare cases in period), but the rest of the design is so TSCA that I'd rather ask the client whether they would be amenable to a complete redesign. - "Per pale " is, in some cases, a hack to avoid "appearance of marshalling". That appearance is exacerbated by - "Per pale" between two different charges, especially in two different tinctures. Cliche. - Decrescent. Crescents, "U", were common in period. Decrescents and increscents were very rare at best. Mind you, a mullet is a common period charge, whether of 5 or 6 points. Often they were "pierced", with a little hole in the center -- an artistic treatment called a "spur rowel", but not worth a CD. Crescents, as I pointed out, are great. Lots of fine period style designs could be made with them both. A field semy of mullets, a crescent. A field semy of crescents, a mullet. A crescent charged with a mullet; "three crescents each charged with a spur rowel" I can date to about 1300. "A crescent and on a chief two spur-rowels" -- another design I can date to about 1300. HOWEVER. I should make it clear that the client's design appears registerable. Furthermore, the client has to live with the final results of whatever they register -- *I* don't have to deal with it but once, to conflict-check it. The ideas in the previous paragraph are just SUGGESTIONS in case the client is amenable. If the client has their heart set on Their Design, so be it. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 07:40:45 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:40:45 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000428144046.44446.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings! I was hoping I could get some help since I am very new to the heraldry (I am still "acting" as it is). The populace of the canton of Glaslyn voted on and accepted by majority a new design for a device which they would like to replace the current one. First, the history on this decision. Glaslyn has been around since the early '80's and has died and revived many times since. At the present moment, it has a good strong core and is faring better than ever (we are even finally losing our incipient status soon). While the populace did not mind the name, they felt the current device was something to which they feel close nor did they want fly it any longer. After a few drawings were made, we had our vote and a new one was picked. I know I should contact our baronial herald for the device, but, more on a kingdom level, what must be done for us to change our device? In other words, are there any specific procedures I must follow in doing this? Any help is appreciated. Godspeed, Cyniric Cyniwarding, hyrnboda Glaslynes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Mohun1066 at aol.com Fri Apr 28 08:50:06 2000 From: Mohun1066 at aol.com (Mohun1066 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:50:06 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - ATTN: Viking Exhibition Message-ID: <61.31469f6.263b0d2e@aol.com> There is a Viking exhibition at the Smithsonian now which will be touring the country. It will be coming to the Houston Museum of Natural History, July 13, 2001 to Oct. 11, 2001. I know it is a bit early to prepare, but thought I would pass it along. Website-http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/ Griffin ap Rhys (not a Viking but I am sure my persona would have been terrified of them). ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Fri Apr 28 10:21:55 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <200004281721.MAA01504@serv1.jump.net> Cyniric Cyniwarding / "Richard Culver" wrote: > The populace of the canton of Glaslyn voted on and accepted by > majority a new design for a device which they would like to replace > the current one. I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. Did they consult with experienced heralds before getting designs? Mind you, I'm not saying anything about Glaslyn in particular. I don't know anything about Glaslyn (except that it's a canton of the Steppes, and I have a vague memory of consulting about something last Warlord). It's just that SCA groups are some of the worst perpetrators of cliches and non-period-but- registerable things. A single submitter you may be able to convince to go with better style. Once a group decides that their design "sings" and "resonates", it's like trying to convince musk oxen. As a general call to all: before working on group names or arms, please consult with experienced heralds who may be able to advise on period style and registerability before the group settles on the SCA standard of wretchedness. > I know I should contact our baronial herald for the device, In the sense that he (Erc, I think?) is your boss so you have to report to him on heraldic activity, but there's no *requirement* to get him to sign off on anything. > but, more on a kingdom level, what must be done for us to change our > device? In other words, are there any specific procedures I must > follow in doing this? Kingdom isn't involved with this either, any more than any other device change. Step 0: reply to this note and give us a blazon or plain-English description of the arms. We can comment on style issues, maybe find a conflict, et cetera. Step 1: go to the Free Trumpet Press West webpage at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/ftpw/ and order paper copies of SCA Rules for Submissions, Admin. Handbook, Alt. Titles List, Glossary (item FT-43B), for a mere $6. Get a notebook binder ready for when it arrives, so you can answer rules questions wherever you take it. Step 2: While you're waiting for the order to arrive, bookmark and go to http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/regs.html , the Web page that links to the HTML versions of the RfS, AH, Alternate Titles, and CoA Glossary. Step 3: go to the Admin Handbook. Read it once all the way thru, but I didn't retain much any of the times I've done it, so I expect you won't either. That's just to give you an idea of what's in there, so when such a question arises, the back of your mind may tickle you and hint that this is the place to look. In general but with exceptions, the Admin Handbook tells you how to proceed on various things, and the RfS tells you about the registerable style of any particular item. Step 4: Go back to the Admin Handbook, and re-read with more attention II (Registerable Items) D (Tinctured Armory) 2 (Branch Arms): gotta have at least one laurel wreath IV (General Procedures for Submissions) C (Completed Paperwork) 5 (Evidence of Support) "Submissions involving the name or arms of an active branch must include evidence of support for the action on the part of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least three-quarters of the other local officers. In the case of branches with ruling nobles, such petitions must also include a statement of support from the ruling noble. ... Branch badge(s), order or award names, and other Branch names (such as names for guilds, Herald's Titles in the case of Kingdom, etc.) do not require support at the Laurel level. Kingdom may require it if they so desire, for their internal procedures." (Note: it's a really good idea to get the canton's approval for any badges or guild names -- a canton can't have awards or orders -- regardless of whether it's required or not.) As to how to demonstrate group approval: I don't think you should go the officers-only route; this is something to get everyone in on. Get a sheet of paper with lines for signatures. Put at the top something like "We, the undersigned, are members of the populace of the Canton of Glaslyn. We support the change of the canton arms to be [blazon], as emblazoned in the margin." Get someone to draw a line drawing of the proposed arms on the sheet, with enough detail that everyone knows what they're approving, but with enough room for enough signatures. Copy this master sheet a few times (just to provide enough lines for everyone), and color in the line drawings so people know the colors too. Don't get the boilerplate on each page be *too* big. Kingdom and Laurel are completely unimpressed by fancy calligraphy or large words, especially if that means there's only room for two signatures per page and hence a 15-page petition. Double-sided copying is your friend. Might as well have the seneschal or herald certify that it's indeed a majority of the populace. I can't think of a good way to word it right now, because the Admin Handbook leaves "populace" undefined and it's lunchtime. As for your barony. I think Laurel would not say that a canton has a "ruling noble" or not. The *barony* has a ruling noble. The *canton* is itself a branch just like any other branch. Corpora just says kingdoms can allow other local group types. Kingdom law ( http://www.ansteorra.org/publications/law/kingdom_law.html ) says that a canton is "under the protection of a Barony" and "Branches under the protection of a Barony or Province shall report both to the designated Kingdom level superior and to the protecting branches [sic] officers". That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. Especially, a new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more than $10,000 in their treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) Especially because I bet the barony won't particularly *care* about this. The canton herald and/or seneschal should go to the next baronial meeting (some Tuesday night at La Madeleine, right?), and report. Predicted skeleton dialog: Glaslyn: We're planning to change the Glaslyn coat of arms. This is the design we've approved by vote. Someone: Have the heralds looked it over? Glaslyn: Yes. They say it's registerable. Everyone: Sounds good. Glaslyn: Can we get Your Excellencies to sign the petition of support? [flourish the petition and a pen.] Baron and baroness: Sure. Glad to. (You *do* carry at least one pen wherever you go? I docked people one point each at the Court From Hell competition because they didn't.) The sheet may be the one with the seneschal/herald's certification of a majority. You might glitz it up with signature spaces labelled "Baron, Lord, and Protector of the Canton" and "Baroness, Lady, and Protector of the Canton"; maybe Fritz and Kitrin will be tickled by the glitz, I dunno. By the way: Laurel will not be picky about the wording; the above is a reasonable suggestion. There's a Laurel precedent from Bruce to the effect of This group submission had a sheet attached labelled only "Petition" and with a list of signatures. For all I know, it was a petition to serve ice cream at fighter practice. I'm going to assume they're honorable and give them the benefit of the doubt. However, in the future, please indicate on the petition *what* you're petitioning for. The color version is just to make sure everyone knows. I don't think Laurel has ever really looked for a certification of the results, but heck, why not cross the Ts and dot the Is beyond all question? Any other questions? Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel is tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work account. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Fri Apr 28 15:20:27 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:20:27 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <65.39ab413.263b68ab@aol.com> Are these the changes that Wolf spoke to me about at the Coronation? Donnel ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Fri Apr 28 15:26:17 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:26:17 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <13.48bed91.263b6a09@aol.com> I hope you have all this saved so the next time all you have to do is cut and past. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sat Apr 29 09:26:08 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <200004281721.MAA01504@serv1.jump.net> Message-ID: By the way, I see no particular reason for anyone to save my previous message. Groups take or change names or arms so rarely. If you just remember that the Admin Handbook has rules, and remember to look for the word "support" (case-insensitive, first occurrence) or "petition" (the same), you'll find the #1 cause for failure: "Draw the populace poll larger". Or simply remember to call your regional for advice. OK, the biggest piece of advice: also remember to conflict-check and get style notes on the designs BEFORE the group votes on them. On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Timothy A. McDaniel wrote: > "Submissions involving the name or arms of an active branch > must include evidence of support for the action on the part > of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the > case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be > demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and > officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least > three-quarters of the other local officers. ... > Might as well have the seneschal or herald certify that it's indeed > a majority of the populace. I can't think of a good way to word it > right now, because the Admin Handbook leaves "populace" undefined > and it's lunchtime. I've chewed my lunch and my words. It occurs to me that you ought to go both ways (suppress the peanut gallery). You can certainly tell when you have the seneschal + 3/4 of the other officers. Nevertheless, I'd go for the populace too, for group solidarity reasons: bring the petition to fighter practice, the canton meeting, wherever the group meets, to make a good-faith effort to count and invite everyone. Then the seneschal or herald can certify that the officer requirement is met, and also that a majority of the populace supports it too. "But, Daniel, aren't you being anal retentive?" - What, like that's new? - Changing the group arms and name are not done lightly. - Getting more people involved in this case makes the group work better. - Taking pains now means the rest of the process flows smoothly. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 08:53:50 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:53:50 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429155350.82188.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. Are you always so optimistic? Did they consult with >experienced heralds before getting designs? Our seneschal, Centurion Airaklee Wolf, said he ran it by some herald however I currently do not recall the name. The rough loine drawing is on our site at www.glaslyn.org. Mind you, I'm not saying >anything about Glaslyn in particular. I don't know anything about >Glaslyn (except that it's a canton of the Steppes, and I have a vague >memory of consulting about something last Warlord). It's just that >SCA groups are some of the worst perpetrators of cliches and >non-period-but- registerable things. A single submitter you may be >able to convince to go with better style. Once a group decides that >their design "sings" and "resonates", it's like trying to convince >musk oxen. Well I do not know about this. I do know it is the opinion of the majority of the canton (three times the votes of the second closest design) and they feel it represents them. If it does not work, there was really no harm in trying. Glaslyn is a good group and is not nearly as full of itself as some might be. > >Step 0: reply to this note and give us a blazon or plain-English >description of the arms. We can comment on style issues, maybe find a >conflict, et cetera. Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. >As to how to demonstrate group approval: I don't think you should go >the officers-only route; this is something to get everyone in on. Get >a sheet of paper with lines for signatures. Put at the top something >like "We, the undersigned, are members of the populace of the Canton >of Glaslyn. We support the change of the canton arms to be [blazon], >as emblazoned in the margin." This was how I would have planned it anyway. It was the poulace who voted on it. The officers support it too (even if it beat mine). Get someone to draw a line drawing of >the proposed arms on the sheet, with enough detail that everyone knows >what they're approving, but with enough room for enough signatures. >Copy this master sheet a few times (just to provide enough lines for >everyone), and color in the line drawings so people know the colors >too. Don't get the boilerplate on each page be *too* big. >Kingdom and Laurel are completely unimpressed by fancy calligraphy or >large words, especially if that means there's only room for two >signatures per page and hence a 15-page petition. Double-sided >copying is your friend. Okay, we happen to be associated with a very talented artist. We can do. > >That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. Especially, a >new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more than $10,000 in their >treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) Well, that is one of the many labels given Glaslyn over the years, but we feel rational enough. We had no intention of pissing off the barony. If I remember correctly, we had mentioned this to their Excellencies previously. Our two groups had not always felt so strongly about one another in the past, but we are working on it now. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 08:57:03 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:57:03 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429155705.59499.qmail@hotmail.com> >Are these the changes that Wolf spoke to me about at the Coronation? > >Donnel Quite possibly. You must be the name I cannot remember. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 09:39:30 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:39:30 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000429163930.87285.qmail@hotmail.com> > Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: > > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a >fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All >gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. Think maybe "counterCHANGED" was what I was thinking. Regardless, we essentially want yellow on the viewers left, red on the viewers right, and the contrasting color for the charges according to on what side they are. I also forgot the phoenix is maintaing and within the wreath, as if it encircles it. I hope I was able to convey the general idea. Again checkout www.glaslyn.org/device.html . Thanks for the help, Cyniric Cyniwarding (who really prefers name research) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 01:15:22 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:15:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000429155350.82188.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >I'm feeling a premonition of dread here. > > Are you always so optimistic? Of course. There's an attitude on alt.sysadmin.recovery that all software sucks (just some sucks worse than others), all hardware sucks, all (l)users suck, work sucks, life sucks, everything sucks. Get to be an old used herald and a similar attitude can seep in. It's not to the point of needing bourbon to get thru an ILoI, though. Coca-cola, though, that's a necessity. > Okay, we happen to be associated with a very talented artist. We > can do. Do they have experience with heraldic art in particular? Heraldic art has its own conventions and stylizations. For example, naturalistic lions and landscapes are great in tapestries and paintings (hep me, hep me, I been Branwynized!), but aren't good in heraldry. > >That premised: a canton should NOT piss off the barony. > >Especially, a new canton should NOT piss off a barony with more > >than $10,000 in their treasury. (Are you guys *nuts*?) > > Well, that is one of the many labels given Glaslyn over the years, > but we feel rational enough. Ack! but that was unskillfully written! What I *meant*: If you ever *did do* something that pissed off the Steppes, my reaction *would then be* "Are you guys nuts?". > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel > wreath, a fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief > three rings. All gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. As you mentioned in another note, I looked at http://www.glaslyn.org/device.html which is an outline drawing. If I understand you correctly: the tinctures are divided down the middle; the viewer's left half of the design ("dexter") is gold, with all the things on it red, and the viewer's right half has a red background and everything on it gold? If so, I'd blazon the drawing Per pale gules and Or, a bird displayed in annulo between two sprigs of laurel, a point pointed of flame [proper?], in chief three annulets, all counterchanged. Hrm. Hrm. The sketch can be improved, but I see several possible killer problems. Bruce Draconarius of Mistholm and Akagawa Yoshio, _A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry / as Used in the SCA_, 2nd ed. -- the "Pic Dic" for short -- is available in your area. You can get a copy from Free Trumpet Press West, and I strongly advise you or your group to get it; it's extremely helpful for the SCA herald. Oakenwald (the pursuivant of the Steppes), Da'ud, Adelicia or Tadhg, other Steppers, Elfseers, et cetera, should all have copies you can look at. When looking at arms in period, the charges were sometimes small and were stylized. How did you tell what kind of bird it was? Answer: it had standard attributes. For example, you could tell that such-and-so was a hawk because it was "close" (wings held against its body, facing to dexter), and because it usually had a hawk's hood, jesses, and/or bells on it. If it was displayed, it was an eagle, even though the body was very similar to the hawk's. If it was close, head facing the viewer ("guardant"), and had a big head and eyes, it was an owl. If it was skinny, "close", and held a stone in one long leg, it was a crane. If it was close but had hairy feathers, it was a crow. Und so weider. The legend of the phoenix has the phoenix burning itself and being renewed from the ashes. (Christians adopted the symbol for that reason.) The Pic Dic depiction (item 563) has the tail, the lowermost body, and about to start on the wings in flames. All the phoenices I've seen had had part of the bird burning. I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why I blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". It looks like "a point pointed of flame". A "point pointed" (item 574) is when the bottom part of the shield is covered by a sort of diamond-shaped area. The flames here are as a straight-sided point pointed. (Furthermore, there are little drops of flame in the larger flame, which makes me wonder if "flame proper" was intended. This wouldn't be a correct depiction, mind you: flames proper are alternating tongues of red and gold flames.) Killer problem: Precedents of Da'ud (second tenure, second year), under Flames: The sinister half of the tree is not really "flaming", but is rather "of flames". We have not allowed charges of flame for quite some time. Additionally most of the commenters noted that counterchanging a charge, half of which is proper, does not appear to have any period or modern exemplars. .... (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR July 1994, p. 11) Another possible killer: charges that blur the distinction between two distinct types of charge are returned. For example, a horse is a horse, of course, of course. A unicorn has a goat-ish body with a lion's tail and a horn. A "unicornate horse" has a horse's body with a horn. It's returned for blurring the distinction between two things that get a difference. I would argue that a bird there and flame over there blurs the distinction between a phoenix and other birds, and is cause for return. Another possible killer: with half-Or half-gules everything swappiedoodle, it's gonna look visually complex. There is a rule, VIII.3, Armorial Identifiability - Elements must be used in a design so as to preserve their individual identifiability. Identifiable elements may be rendered unidentifiable by significant reduction in size, marginal contrast, excessive counterchanging, ... I've just printed it and colored it. I think it's still identifiable, because it's a simple line of division with a bilaterally-symmetric design. However, I can see others arguing that it's too much. There are other artistic problems, but they can be fixed by just redrawing. The bird outline mostly looks like a modern Japanese crane. The Pic Dic and Parker (N.B.: I do NOT recommend looking up the Seymour badge emblazonin Parker. That is one truly lousy-looking phoenix -- Victorian, maybe?) agree that the phoenix resembles an eagle. The Pic Dic says that it has a crest. The bird on the Glaslyn page doesn't have a raptor beak, a heraldic eagle's ruffled feathers or distinct large feathers. Another precedent: The laurel wreath needs a redraw, to look more like a laurel wreath, which should be circular in shape. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR December 1998, p. 17) The depiction has, not a wreath, but "two sprigs of laurel", and would be returned for lacking a laurel wreath. I think the leaves should be larger and ovoid. The Texas state seal has one of its sprigs being of laurel; that can be a model for the leaves. The invaluable Pic Dic has a picture too. So, how to fix it? First, I'd make it a real phoenix enflamed. (Or an eagle and leave off the flame, but given the story we heard, I suspect Glaslyn wants the "rebirth" notion.) It'd be a bird with flame around the bottom. The laurel wreath has to grow anyway; it'd have to expand out a bit more to accomodate the pheonix. I'd also ask the group whether the "per pale counterchanged" was significant to them, or whether it was just done to avoid conflict or something -- would they consider Or field-gules charges or gules field-Or charges to be just as good? Has the group considered replacing the three annulets with three laurel wreaths (getting rid of the large one)? "A charge within a wreath" is an SCA cliche hardly ever done in period, tho it's understandable why, given the verdammt required laurel wreath. Doing three wreaths instead of three annulets allows the phoenix to expand more. I don't think that makes it harder to draw: true, there are more wreaths, but each is smaller, so you can do a few leaves on each; further, you may be able to stencil. (In conflict-checking terms, it also makes the design "simple" according to X.2, which makes conflict-checking a bit easier and decreases the chance of conflict.) I wonder whether Glaslyn would like a few heralds from Elfsea and the Steppes to come up and consult with a populace meeting? Some questions ought to be answered first, so the "road trippers" can come prepared with suggestions that are likely to be amenable to the group. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Sat Apr 29 13:22:05 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:22:05 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/00 11:41:03 AM Central Daylight Time, rbculver at hotmail.com writes: << Well since it is probably cliche, here it goes and I hope I make sense: > > the field is Or, in the center a pheonix maintaining a laurel wreath, a >fire coming from the base (issuant, I believe), in chief three rings. All >gules. this is then countercharged(?) per pale. Think maybe "counterCHANGED" was what I was thinking. Regardless, we essentially want yellow on the viewers left, red on the viewers right, and the contrasting color for the charges according to on what side they are. I also forgot the phoenix is maintaing and within the wreath, as if it encircles it. I hope I was able to convey the general idea. Again checkout www.glaslyn.org/device.html . Thanks for the help, Cyniric Cyniwarding (who really prefers name research) OK I have looked at it. The flames at the bottom need to be bigger instead of the small little tongues of fire. That is from a banner makers point of view. Try appliqueing them. Looks good to me. Donnel PS I am fwding this on to Aarron. ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:55:01 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:55:01 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> >Do they have experience with heraldic art in particular? Heraldic art >has its own conventions and stylizations. For example, naturalistic >lions and landscapes are great in tapestries and paintings (hep me, >hep me, I been Branwynized!), but aren't good in heraldry. I believe she does. She drew her sister-in-laws device and I think one or two others without much complaint. >If I understand you correctly: the tinctures are divided down the >middle; the viewer's left half of the design ("dexter") is gold, with >all the things on it red, and the viewer's right half has a red >background and everything on it gold? If so, I'd blazon the drawing > Per pale gules and Or, a bird displayed in annulo between two > sprigs of laurel, a point pointed of flame [proper?], in chief > three annulets, all counterchanged. That sound like it. >Bruce Draconarius of Mistholm and Akagawa Yoshio, _A Pictorial >Dictionary of Heraldry / as Used in the SCA_, 2nd ed. -- the "Pic Dic" >for short -- is available in your area. I will have to confer with other heralds around here. I am not in the position right now to order much of sqwat. >The legend of the phoenix has the phoenix burning itself and being >renewed from the ashes. (Christians adopted the symbol for that >reason.) The Pic Dic depiction (item 563) has the tail, the lowermost >body, and about to start on the wings in flames. All the phoenices >I've seen had had part of the bird burning. >I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was >down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why I >blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". To make the bird burning, would we have to remove the flame in the base? >It looks like "a point pointed of flame". A "point pointed" (item >574) is when the bottom part of the shield is covered by a sort of >diamond-shaped area. The flames here are as a straight-sided point >pointed. (Furthermore, there are little drops of flame in the larger >flame, which makes me wonder if "flame proper" was intended. This >wouldn't be a correct depiction, mind you: flames proper are >alternating tongues of red and gold flames.) We wanted to flame gules, not proper. >Killer problem: Precedents of Da'ud (second tenure, second year), >under Flames: > The sinister half of the tree is not really "flaming", but is > rather "of flames". We have not allowed charges of flame for > quite some time. Additionally most of the commenters noted that > counterchanging a charge, half of which is proper, does not appear > to have any period or modern exemplars. .... (Da'ud ibn Auda, > LoAR July 1994, p. 11) See above about proper vs. gules. >Another possible killer: charges that blur the distinction between two >distinct types of charge are returned. For example, a horse is a >horse, of course, of course. A unicorn has a goat-ish body with a >lion's tail and a horn. A "unicornate horse" has a horse's body with >a horn. It's returned for blurring the distinction between two things >that get a difference. I would argue that a bird there and flame over >there blurs the distinction between a phoenix and other birds, and is >cause for return. Can the phoenix be aflame and still be above the fire? >Another possible killer: with half-Or half-gules everything >swappiedoodle, it's gonna look visually complex. There is a rule, >VIII.3, I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want for my personal device are banned. :( >There are other artistic problems, but they can be fixed by just >redrawing. The bird outline mostly looks like a modern Japanese >crane. That would be because the student who drew it happens to be a Japanese persona. He just drew what he was familar with. It was intend to be just a rough sketch anyway. >Another precedent: > The laurel wreath needs a redraw, to look more like a laurel > wreath, which should be circular in shape. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR > December 1998, p. 17) >The depiction has, not a wreath, but "two sprigs of laurel", and would >be returned for lacking a laurel wreath. I think the leaves should be >larger and ovoid. The Texas state seal has one of its sprigs being of >laurel; that can be a model for the leaves. The invaluable Pic Dic >has a picture too. I think we would be willing to redraw that. I had it pictured in my mind as encircling the bird anyway. > >So, how to fix it? First, I'd make it a real phoenix enflamed. (Or >an eagle and leave off the flame, but given the story we heard, I >suspect Glaslyn wants the "rebirth" notion.) It'd be a bird with >flame around the bottom. The laurel wreath has to grow anyway; it'd >have to expand out a bit more to accomodate the pheonix. Okay. I will run it by the folk and ee what they say. >I'd also ask the group whether the "per pale counterchanged" was >significant to them, or whether it was just done to avoid conflict or >something -- would they consider Or field-gules charges or >gules field-Or charges to be just as good? Our "device contest", as it were, was essentially coloring in the black and white on the website. There were Or field-gules charge and vice verse option colored but the per pale won by landslide. I would like to keep it if possible. >Has the group considered replacing the three annulets with three >laurel wreaths (getting rid of the large one)? Originally the rings had a meaning. It however may have been lost since the original idea sprouted. I will certainly ask about it. >I wonder whether Glaslyn would like a few heralds from Elfsea and the >Steppes to come up and consult with a populace meeting? Some >questions ought to be answered first, so the "road trippers" can come >prepared with suggestions that are likely to be amenable to the >group. That would probably be a great idea. I will pass it on to Wolf and see when we can get it in. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:57:26 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:57:26 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430015726.93492.qmail@hotmail.com> > OK I have looked at it. The flames at the bottom need to be bigger >instead >of the small little tongues of fire. That is from a banner makers point of >view. Try appliqueing them. Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be there on the finished product. >Looks good to me. > >Donnel > >PS I am fwding this on to Aarron. Thanks, Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From avalon at arn.net Sat Apr 29 22:31:58 2000 From: avalon at arn.net (Kendall Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:31:58 -0700 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question Message-ID: <002601bfb265$751c6760$0200000a@kjohnson> Hello, Does someone have a quick source for William that doesn't need documentation. Don't you wish all questions were this easy :) Thanks Kendall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 09:37:12 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >I've never seen one where the bird was up *there* and the flame was > >down *there* and they're barely touching at one point. That's why > >I blazoned it "a bird and a point pointed of flame". > > To make the bird burning, would we have to remove the flame in the > base? ... > Can the phoenix be aflame and still be above the fire? Your group wants a phoenix AND a separate flame? I assumed the flame was supposed to be part *of* the phoenix. Um, not to be critical, but isn't that sort of redundant? You can have "a flame" as a charge. It can't be done like it was drawn on the Web site. It has to be a flame as a charge. It doesn't have to be smooth like a candle flame, and actually probably shouldn't; it can be done with lots of tongue of flame, like a campfire without logs. But aside from redundancy, the design would get crowded with a bird AND a laurel wreath AND a flame AND three rings. That forces the bird to be pretty tiny. Small enough and all the charges might get ruled co-primary and the whole thing bounced for "slot machine" (too many different types of charges in the same group). > I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want > for my personal device are banned. :( Please feel free to send us a message (a new one with a different subject, not just a reply to this one, to avoid confusion) with a request for help. The rules are there for various purposes: - to cause SCA ehraldic practice to approach period practice - to have a rule set that's easy to learn and apply - to make the populace happy Unfortunately, those three forces tug the rules in different ways. In my experience, people hitting the rules repeatedly are trying to do non-period ideas. > There were Or field-gules charge and vice verse option colored but > the per pale won by landslide. I would like to keep it if possible. I still have my doubts ... > That would probably be a great idea. I will pass it on to Wolf and > see when we can get it in [roadtripping heralds] Gotta check with Steppes and Elfseaers too. There's this weird rash of weddings that's just broken out in the Steppes ... Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 09:44:43 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:44:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <002601bfb265$751c6760$0200000a@kjohnson> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Kendall Johnson wrote: > Does someone have a quick source for William that doesn't need > documentation. Um, a source for William *is* documentation. What did you think documentation was? Documentation is any justification for a practice. Further, William in what context -- language, culture, time frame? English? French? German? Scots? Irish Gaelic? Italian? Japanese? Further, William as given name, "middle name", surname, or what? Probably easiest if you tell us the full proposed name, and intended time, culture, and language, and let us vet the whole thing. > Don't you wish all questions were this easy :) "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all the text in an attachment. I had to get to the attachments page, get to the right one, display it with an external viewer, cut-and-paste your text, then back out of each of those levels. Please don't do that again. Just put the text in the body of the mail message. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Apr 29 22:23:40 2000 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy and Bill Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:23:40 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? References: <20000430015501.49797.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01bfb264$672adfc0$a8551f26@computer> Hokay, After consulting 7 different books about medieval concepts about the phoenix I know less than ever. For instance some sources made the phoenix purple, some rainbow or multicolored, and Herodotus said flame coloured. For this reason I would avoid the term proper. Since Queen Elizabeth used one as a badge, can anyone on the list find out what colour(s) she used? I seem to remember multicolored but the memory is very vague. Also a problem with the device, flame against a divided or and gules field gives insufficient contrast. Or at least Laurel has so held in the past. To save the per pale idea I would suggest either a purple or gold-coloured phoenix rising out of red and gold flames. Against a per pale background chosen to show the charge. (for instance against white and green) Three laurel wreaths in fess the chief in either gold or red. Or the laurel wreath in bordure counterchanged. If you want to go with the rainbow colored phoenix I would strongly suggest a single tincture for the field, in order to keep it easily recognized. I don't have a ordinary and armorial handy, which versions of the phoenix have already been used in branch arms? Mableth ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From awmorris at flash.net Sat Apr 29 23:04:50 2000 From: awmorris at flash.net (Amy and Bill Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:04:50 -0500 Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? References: Message-ID: <003901bfb26a$2c4ec320$a8551f26@computer> Sorry for posting twice to the thread but I forgot to include this side comment. > > > I am already getting sick of the rules. :? Half the charges I want > > for my personal device are banned. :( > Cyniric, Do you mean banned as 'offensive to a significant portion of the population' or banned as in 'the stuff an early anglo-saxon would put on a shield is not registrable'? I ask for the following reason. If what your persona would put on his or her shield would not be heraldry then you can put it on your shield, just make sure that it can't be mistaken for heraldry. In your case I would start by making the center boss and the rim contrasting with the brown board (leather or wood). Add a couple of rivets/bolt heads and/or reinforcing bars. Then add the metal beast shapes or geometrics. If possible, try to make the rest of your armor similarly period. Don't paint the board. Red or white would be period but might make it look too much like a coat of arms. Most people will love you for doing this. A few will be outraged, especially if you catch them off guard. BE CAREFUL TO TELL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE FIRST. Consult with heralds experienced in device registration to avoid something that looks like a shield. Tell the fighters that you are recreating a period shield, they'll love it. Contact your local authenticity police, bribe them with documentation. If you do this correctly you will have most of the College of Arms protecting you against anyone else who might dispute your right to carry the shield, and virtually everyone else enthusiastically protecting you against any herald who might object to your shield. You will still get the occasional objection, but a little tact, and good documentation will easily carry you through. There are a few symbols used in Anglo-Saxon art that are banned because of later connections with the Nazis. To my knowledge none of them were used on shields. Most of the people who do the 'non-heraldic' shield bit eventually end up with a coat of arms, but only for use on banners, etc. I have a good reference on the Anglo-Saxon warrior, recently printed in England. If you would like me to xerox the pages on shields please email me at awmorris at flash.net with your mailing address. Mableth ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From DonnelShaw at aol.com Sat Apr 29 23:05:35 2000 From: DonnelShaw at aol.com (DonnelShaw at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:05:35 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <55.53d3ae3.263d272f@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/00 8:58:37 PM Central Daylight Time, rbculver at hotmail.com writes: << Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be there on the finished product. >> Are you a student or a teacher? ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 10:45:46 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:45:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: Kendall Johnson wrote to me personally, but I suspect meant it for the list: > Can someone tell me on what page William is listed in Withycombe's > Dictionary of christian names. Mr. Pedantic Person notes that it's _The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names_. It's a miracle nobody has soundly *THWAPPED* Mr. Pedantic Person for a while. William is on pp. 293-4 (3rd ed.). Dated spellings: Willelm, c. 1067 Willelmus, 1086, 1199-1220 Wilecoc, 1273 Wylymot, 1379 Gillet, Gillot(in), Gilliame, Guillot, 1306 Wyll, c. 1515 Gilow, Gylaw, 1379 Gilmyn, 1379 Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! Reaney and Wilson, _A Dictionary of English Surnames_, 3rd ed, p. 493, have Robertus filius Willelmi, 1086 Richard William, 1279 John Wylyam, 1296 Rauf le fuiz William, 1299 Henry Fitz William, 1300 Ralph Willem, Willeam, 1304 ... Thomas William, 1327 R&W is fine as a source for given names in given-name positions. For example, those citations above are great for the spellings Richard, John, Henry, Ralph, and Thomas. An apparent given name in a surname position is dicier. For example, the first example is probably in the genitive case or something. However, where the surname is derived from a given name, and the name appears not to have been "mutated" in some way, I think you're on pretty reasonable grounds. (By "mutation", I refer to changes like "Williamson" (or "Williams", which means the same thing.) So (assuming the client wants "William" in that exact spelling), I'd write it as William: Withycombe (3rd ed., pp. 293-4) says it was introduced to England by the Normans and has been popular to the present time. Reaney and Wilson (3rd ed., p. 493, under Williams) date this spelling as a given name from 1279. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 11:12:47 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:12:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <002a01bfb264$672adfc0$a8551f26@computer> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Amy and Bill Morris wrote about phoenices proper. I'm so sorry to put you to all that work! I dropped a "[proper?]" in the middle of my proposed blazon to refer to the *flames*, and forgot that it would apply to previous charges! No, I don't expect phoenices to have a proper tincture. Offhand, I can't think of *any* monster with a defined "proper". I recall hearing that the English College of Arms once had a client request a griffin proper; someone suggested that the proper tincture for a mythical beast was "invisible", but that the client ought to be charged the full fee by the herald painter for "painting" it. The phoenix simply has to be blazoned as being of some specific tincture or tinctures. It has also been clarified that the flame was not supposed to be proper, but rather counterchanged as well. > To save the per pale idea Not sure what needs saving, unless it be due to the "excessive counterchanging" possibility. All other colors show up well against gules and metal, so if the group wanted azure or sable charges, it would show up pretty well. (I'm not sure you could do consistent metal or color for all three annulets: one of the annulets would therefore end up metal-on-metal or color-on-color.) I would not recommend purpure or vert (purple or green). They were very much rarer than the other colors (purpure a little more common in Iberia), and usually only done in simple designs. > Or the laurel wreath in bordure Cause for return. Wreathes are circular. (I meant it!) In past times, there has been registered what we'd call "a wreath in bordure", or "two sprigs of laurel, tips crossed in saltire", or other mutations. We've gotten stricter since. The laurel wreath is emblazoned as lying as on a bordure', which has been disallowed for some time now. Please let them know that laurel wreaths are nearly circular in shape, and cannot follow the line of a bordure or orle. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR December 1998, p. 14) > I don't have a ordinary and armorial handy, which versions of the > phoenix have already been used in branch arms? What do you mean, "which version"? If you mean "what tinctures": argent argent, flames proper azure azure, flames argent and sable azure, flames azure and or azure, flames gules azure, flames proper azure, flames vert and or gules gules, flames proper or or, flames argent or, flames proper per bend sinister argent and sable per bend sinister or and sable per fess or and gules per fess sable and or per pale or and gules (alone on the field) purpure, flames sable (sort of: Bryan de Albengi) sable, flames gules I'm only up to names starting with D and I'm getting bored. The only new ones added in the Cs were pretty much some weird flaming for azure ones. Or phoenices are by far the most popular. The only "phoenix proper" ever registered was in 1979, but was reblazoned in 1982 to "a phoenix of flames ... proper". The latter motif has been registered a few times since. It is no longer registerable; see the precedent I quoted in an earlier message forbidding charges of flame. OK, Yrj? Kirjawiisas reg. in 1980 an "Egyptian phoenix proper", but it is listed as "[Ardea purpurea] ...BIRD:1:bird passant to sinister:eagle:proper:spna" and not monster, so that appears to be the common name for a real bird. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From culn97 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 30 01:09:11 2000 From: culn97 at yahoo.com (Rod Jackson) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: <20000430080911.28954.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Why THWAPP? I've been lurking and learning, though I do think you've been a little harsh. Maybe the Lynchburg Lemonade makes me more mellow. OK, you are hereby docked one chocolate ration. Cheers! Colin (oh, I like the fewer key strokes!) --- tmcd at jump.net wrote: > Kendall Johnson wrote to me > personally, but I suspect > meant it for the list: > (snippage) It's a miracle nobody has soundly *THWAPPED* Mr. Pedantic Person for a while. > (more snippage) ===== Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:06:40 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:06:40 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430210640.53750.qmail@hotmail.com> >Do you mean banned as 'offensive to a significant portion of the >population' >or banned as in 'the stuff an early anglo-saxon would put on a shield is >not >registrable'? Perhaps both, but more so the former. See below. I ask for the following reason. If what your persona would >put on his or her shield would not be heraldry then you can put it on your >shield, just make sure that it can't be mistaken for heraldry. In your >case >I would start by making the center boss and the rim contrasting with the >brown board (leather or wood). Add a couple of rivets/bolt heads and/or >reinforcing bars. Then add the metal beast shapes or geometrics. If >possible, try to make the rest of your armor similarly period. Don't paint >the board. Red or white would be period but might make it look too much >like a coat of arms. I have a center boss dress round (I cannot fight with a center grip due to a disqbility. That whole dropping your shield in battle thing does not sit well with me). I was planning on getting some metal and making beast for that. However we really do not have enough evidence to say what they did or did not put on their shields. Quite frankly as a gress shield I will put what I think I would as a Migration Age Angle. If I could get a hold of a Remo Fiberskyn 3 concert bass drum head, that would look good-just like rawhide but made of mylar (no weather problems). >Most people will love you for doing this. A few will be outraged, >especially if you catch them off guard. BE CAREFUL TO TELL AS MANY PEOPLE >AS POSSIBLE FIRST. Consult with heralds experienced in device >registration >to avoid something that looks like a shield. Tell the fighters that you >are >recreating a period shield, they'll love it. Contact your local >authenticity police, For early Angle stuff I _am_ the authenticity police. Finances are the only thing from doiung it as well as I wish. For fun I study Anglian dialects and Early English and its connections with the Danish penisula. >There are a few symbols used in Anglo-Saxon art that are banned because of >later connections with the Nazis. To my knowledge none of them were used >on >shields. This is exactly the part which chaps me. We are suppose to be an educational organization yet we hide research. I really hate being a slave to the actions of the 12 years of the Arrogant Austrian. The fylfot, to use the Middle English term, was used on weapons, burial urns, and other such things. I think at some point it ended up on a few shields, particularly in the heathen era which is in line with my persona. I would like to use the Eolhsecg/*elhaz-algiz rune as well but I am sure its modern association with the white supremist group the National Alliance would scrap that too. I know I cannot change anything but it is a pet peeve. I assure you other symbols have bad track records yet still are kept around. I makes it really hard to enjoy being period when you have to keep some thing in the shadows. It kind of takes away the magic of Dream for me on a personal level. However I can see why the SCA does not want that kind of press. Luckily my persona is very well developed from my research. Once I get a hold a book called "First Steps in Old English", I hope for high persona events I can be _really_ convincing. >I have a good reference on the Anglo-Saxon warrior, recently printed in >England. If you would like me to xerox the pages on shields please email >me >at awmorris at flash.net with your mailing address. Is that the one put out by Anglo-Saxon books? Cyniric Cyniwarding, hyrnboda Glaslynes 5th Century Angle not too fond of the Saxons :) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:08:05 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:08:05 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000430210805.52495.qmail@hotmail.com> ><< Ever try telling an art student NOT to embellish? :) They will not be > there on the finished product. > >> >Are you a student or a teacher? I am a student but of linguistics, not art. I just live in the artist dorm at UNT for a few years. :) Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:10:27 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:10:27 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) Message-ID: <20000430211027.746.qmail@hotmail.com> >William is on pp. 293-4 (3rd ed.). Dated spellings: > Willelm, c. 1067 > Willelmus, 1086, 1199-1220 > Wilecoc, 1273 > Wylymot, 1379 > Gillet, Gillot(in), Gilliame, Guillot, 1306 > Wyll, c. 1515 > Gilow, Gylaw, 1379 > Gilmyn, 1379 >Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! I wonder if it would appear that way on the Bayeaux Tapestry? For some reason I think it does, or ay least the Latinization of it. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 14:51:40 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:51:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000430211027.746.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > >Oddly enough, she doesn't give a date for the spelling "William"! > > I wonder if it would appear that way on the Bayeaux Tapestry? Possibly, but for SCA registration purposes, you don't need it, given the Reaney & Wilson dates. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 15:03:43 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:03:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000430210640.53750.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Naziism, paganism, and Christianity, all touched on in my message. Asbestos pajamas, everyone! On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > We are suppose to be an educational organization yet we hide > research. Sorry to interrupt your rant, but I've never noticed the SCA hide research. *Application* of the research, sometimes -- no witch hangings, no pogroms, little suppression of women, ... > I really hate being a slave to the actions of the 12 years of the > Arrogant Austrian. (Took me a moment trying to think of which period Austrian you were referring to. "Some Hapsburg? A Hohenzollern? ..." Then 1945-1933==12 clicked in.) > The fylfot, to use the Middle English term, was used on weapons, > burial urns, and other such things. Well, In My Humble Opinion, too bad. I'm sure that most were not marked with fylfots; there's any number of other symbols you can use. > I assure you other symbols have bad track records yet still are kept > around. I can think of only one: the cross. However, the vast majority of people in the US have positive or neutral opinions of it. This is not the case with the fylfot, the South African three-armed thingy, the pentagram (unfortunately), et cetera. (Lest you pigeon-hole me inaccurately as a Promise Keeper or something: I'm a militant agnostic/atheistic ygay man.) (An SCA heraldic note: Northern Atlantia had a major fuss when they had several candidates for their principality arms. One candidate was reminiscent of the flag of Maryland, which is the Baltimore arms, which is quartered with a cross (bottony, if memory serves). Several people said that they were vehemently opposed, to the point of not wanting to play there if it was adopted. I asked one what she would do if she ever had to move to Maryland and see the flag on her car, her driver's licence, state buildings, et cetera. I never did get an answer.) Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From rbculver at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 17:54:16 2000 From: rbculver at hotmail.com (Richard Culver) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:54:16 CDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? Message-ID: <20000501005416.75222.qmail@hotmail.com> >Naziism, paganism, and Christianity, all touched on in my message. >Asbestos pajamas, everyone! Anything to make you happy. >Sorry to interrupt your rant, but I've never noticed the SCA hide >research. *Application* of the research, sometimes -- no witch >hangings, no pogroms, little suppression of women, ... You rightly worded it. Sorry for my mistype. Ah, the good ol' days! :) >Well, In My Humble Opinion, too bad. I'm sure that most were not >marked with fylfots; there's any number of other symbols you can use. I leave it at we simply do not know. There are rock glyphs which do show the solar cross (the ring with a equal armed cross in it), which is a related symbol, used in context as shields. >I can think of only one: the cross. However, the vast majority of >people in the US have positive or neutral opinions of it. This is not >the case with the fylfot, the South African three-armed thingy, the >pentagram (unfortunately), et cetera. Unfortunately you are right. (Lest you pigeon-hole me >inaccurately as a Promise Keeper or something: I'm a militant >agnostic/atheistic ygay man.) That explains a lot. ;) My condolences. I am ordained heathen clergy so I definitely have a different take on the world. At any rate, since my persona is also a wagoneer/ merchant I will probably go with a wagon wheel as my main charge....of course wheels are not period. Cyniric ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 20:12:50 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Branch device change-how to's? In-Reply-To: <20000501005416.75222.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Richard Culver wrote: > of course wheels are not period. Anglo-Saxon and no wheels ... ah, must be those famous Anglo-Saxon Aztecs, originating in those fleeing across the sea from the Vikings. Ixtlilxochitl Aethelweards sunu was probably my favorite of the Heptarchs of the Yucatan. Monks in leopardskins. Yes. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Apr 30 20:25:27 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:25:27 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question Message-ID: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net writes: > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all > the text in an attachment. This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like every other post. Daniel, are you using weird software again / still? If so, THWAPP. :-) Kathri ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From Kathri at aol.com Sun Apr 30 20:55:14 2000 From: Kathri at aol.com (Kathri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:55:14 EDT Subject: ANSTHRLD - Fwd: ILOI 0400 corrections Message-ID: Same song, umpteenth verse. Typos. ------- Addenda to April letter, "....assume it *is* a typing error of mine. If you can, post a correction to the Ansteorran heralds list (heralds at ansteorra.org). If not, let me know any way you can. Kathri, Asterisk" --------- Item 6 Chandranath name: mistyped URL. See below for explanation from submitter. But in my defense let it be said that there is *very* little difference between " ~ " and " - " and there are lots more enyas than dashes in Chandranath's documentation! Chandra, everybody got their Gazette late. And it's not too late for commentary; the deadline for ILOI0400 isn't until May 20. Thanks for the quick notice. ------------------------------- Item 13 Kathryn. Branch is Namron. ------------------------------- Item 16 Stephan of Monmouth. Name documentation was provided; I just didn't type it. It will be posted to the list as soon as I think I can do it. (I'm just getting back to heraldry after helping with Stargate's Assembly of the Contrades and I'm not even going to try to type documentation tonight.) -------------------------------- Item 17 Suannoch. Branch is Westgate. -------------------------------- More later, no doubt. Aelfwyn, please save this email as "Corrections to ILOI0400" for the May Gazette. I'll get the rest to you as soon as I can. Kathri, still Asterisk but dropping letters fast -- may be down to the first two letters by now. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Russ Smith Subject: ILOI 0400 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:40:36 -0500 (CDT) Size: 1405 URL: From tierna at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 30 22:20:06 2000 From: tierna at agora.rdrop.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> from "Kathri@aol.com" at "Apr 30, 2000 11:25:27 pm" Message-ID: <200005010520.WAA13407@agora.rdrop.com> > In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, tmcd at jump.net > writes: > > > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and all > > the text in an attachment. > > This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like every > other post. > > Daniel, are you using weird software again / still? If so, THWAPP. :-) Dunno what Daniel's using (something on a SLIP-type connection, obviously) but I got two attachments, the entirety of the originating text in html, and 113 lines for Kendall's message, so it wasn't just Daniel. (Documentation and photocopies are two different things, BTW.) - Teceangl -- Gwell car yn y llys nag aur ar fys ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. From tmcd at jump.net Sun Apr 30 22:13:24 2000 From: tmcd at jump.net (tmcd at jump.net) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ANSTHRLD - Name Question In-Reply-To: <26.5065bfc.263e5327@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 Kathri at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/29/2000 11:47:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > tmcd at jump.net writes: > > "Easy"? You sent your e-mail message as no lines in the body and > > all the text in an attachment. > > This wasn't true in my version -- clear and no attachment, just like > every other post. It may have been an artifact of the original note being sent to the list in two versions in one note -- the old "I used the mailer defaults to send one copy in plain text, one in HTML" problem. My mail filter now swallows the rest of the message after the "Content-Type:" declaration of "text/html". The resultant mangled message (truncated internal header, no "NextPart" line following) may have confused the pine mailer (generally pretty smart and MIME-aware). I have not seen the problem before because it's the first time since installing the mail filter that I've replied from home (hence, using pine). Thank you, Kathri, for inducing me to investigate further. I will be more aware of such mangling issues, and I hope others will set their mailers to send only plain readable text to this list. Daniel de Lincolia -- Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com. "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every- thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela) ============================================================================ Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks.