ANSTHRLD - submission question (Sla'ine)

[Lee Cavett]

If I recall correctly, Slaine was trying to submit "mac-tire" as a
byname not a patronymic, and had found something somewhere that
indicated the word or phrase "mac-tire" to be something about a wolf.
Further details escape me - I'm frankly surprised I remembered that
much.
Donal

Kathleen O'Brien wrote:
> 
> >Name: Sl[a']ine an Mac-Tire was returned for lack of dated references to the
> >names and lack of documentation of the construction.  Also, she had checked
> >"no changes" so the CoH couldn't fix anything, anyway.
> >
> >The big problems seem to have been the "an" which means "the" and doesn't
> >seem to belong in that position, the hyphen in Mac-Tire, and the lack of
> >dated reference for the surname.  "Sl[a']ine" can be documented from
> >O'Corrain and MacQuire, p. 166, who call it "common in the later middle
> ages"
> >which is probably adequate.  Woulfe, "Irish Names and Surnames" p 318 lists
> >the Gaelic name "Mac an Tsaoir" and the Anglicized version as MacTire,
> >without dates (but his Gaelic names are usually within period.)  Also:
> Black,
> >Surnames of Scotland, p 567 under MACTYRE dates Paul MacTyre to 1360, and p
> >519 under MACINTYRE dates Gildow Makintare to 1506 and Duncan M'Kintier to
> >1513.
> 
> Depending upon the form the submitter chooses, this name may run afoul of
> the "Gaelic feminine names must have their patronymics in a feminine
> construction" precedent.
> 
> If I remember correctly, <Sla/ine> is a feminine name.
> 
> Black (p. 519 s.n. MACINTYRE) gives the meaning of the Gaelic <Mac an
> t-saoir> as being 'son of the carpenter' or 'wright'.
> 
> So the given name is a feminine Gaelic name, the byname is a masculine
> patronymic byname.  In period in Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or
> Manx Gaelic - it doesn't matter), the byname was meant literally.  And
> since a woman cannot be anyone's son, the form <Sla/ine Mac an tSaoir> is
> not registerable.
> 
> There are several slightly different forms she can choose that are
> registerable.  Do you know what's most important to her (sound, meaning,
> language/culture, time period, etc.)?  Her preferences will indicate what
> direction she should go with this name.  Whether to change it to an
> Anglicized form, to change the patronymic particle <Mac> to <ingen>
> 'daughter' (this is the early spelling, <inghean> is the later spelling),
> whether to change the particle to <ingen meic> or <inghean meic>, etc.
> 
> >I hope this helps.  Let me know if you need more.  Thanks for your concern
> >and diligence on behalf of your submitters.
> 
> I'd like to thank you as well.  It's so helpful to the submitters when
> someone is willing to work with them and help them with their submission.
> Your help will make it much easier for the submitter to get something
> registered that she likes.
> 
> Mari, Bordure
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-- 
"All kings is mostly rapscallions." 
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)  - The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

"Ó, is rómhór é neart mar fhathach; ach is ródhroch é a usáid mar
fhathach..." (O, it is excellent 
to have a giant's strength, but it is tyrannous to use it like a
giant...)
  William Shakespeare (translated to the Irish - every once in a while
even the Sassenachs come up with a good line)
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