[ANSTHRLD] fimbration question

[doug bell]

>2- can you have fieldless, a roundel with complex line
>with a charge on it?
It appears that a roundel with a complex line
would not be a medium of heraldic display such as a
normal roundel or lozenge so it should be allowable.

[(Fieldless) On a crescent sable a butterfly argent]  [Deirdre of Boolteens,
10/99, A-Atlantia]
So you can do it with crescents.

And the original precedent:
"this badge uses a plain line charged roundel on a fieldless badge, a
practice that has been disallowed since Baldwin of EreborÆs tenure as
Laurel." [Aneala, Barony of, 7/99, R-Lochac]

However the rules change
RFS XI.4. Arms of Pretense and Augmentations of Honor - Armory that uses
charges in such a way as to appear to be arms of pretense or an unearned
     augmentation of honor is considered presumptuous.
     Period and modern heraldic practice asserts a claim to land or property
by surmounting an individuals usual armory with a display of armory
associated
     with that claim. Such arms of pretense are placed on an escutcheon.
Similarly, an augmentation of honor often, though not necessarily, takes the
form of
     an independent coat placed on an escutcheon or canton. Generally,
therefore, a canton or a single escutcheon may only be used if it is both
uncharged
     and of a single tincture. For example, Argent, a fess gules surmounted
by an escutcheon sable charged with a roundel argent has the appearance
     of being arms of pretense or an augmentation. Or, in saltire five
escutcheons sable each charged with three roundels argent does not have this
     appearance, as it has multiple escutcheons, as so is acceptable. The
exception to the restrictions of this rule is when the submitter is entitled
to an
     augmentation as described in RfS VIII. 7. Augmentations of Honor."

This looks like it removes roundels as a medium for
heraldic display under presumption and overturns the
precedent that they can't be charged and placed on
fieldless badge.  Was there another reason why
charged roundels weren't allowed on fieldless armory?
I can't find one in the old precedents.

Does this look right or have I painted myself into
a corner?

Daniel? Teceangl? HELP!


>3- can you fimbriate a complex line roundel?
Other than the rayonny roundel = sun problem
I can't find anything on this in the precedents.
I also do not find any complex roundels registered
that have been fimbriated.
It certainly looks like the complex lines make
the roundel no longer a simple geometric charge
and thus cannot be fimbriated.

For that matter I don't see any complex line
roundels registered recently.  Have those been
done away with?  A search of the precedents didn't
turn up anything.

The water is getting murky on some of these items.

Magnus


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