[ANSTHRLD] September comments

[doug bell]

First comments on September ILoI.  A couple of returns
and a very nasty floral arrangement to argue over.

Magnus, Armillary

1) Aidan MacAlpin (Steppes)
[Device] There was some question if something as narrow as a bar could be
counterchanged with a fur.  There are examples of the use of ermine and vair
with bars.  Verena Marre January 1996: "Azure, a unicorn's head couped
argent armed and crined Or between two bars wavy ermine."  Freyjarthe na
Barra January 1980: "Vert, three bars vair, overall a golden Dryas flower
proper."

2) Aidan MacAlpin (Steppes)
[Badge] Roses within an annulet are registerable.  See Kingdom of Atlantia
April 2001: "(Fieldless) On a rose within and conjoined to an annulet azure
a chalice argent" for the Atlantian Pages Academy.  The problem here is the
rose and annulet as drawn by the submitter are too small to be identifiable.
  If enlarged to a reasonable size the sable rose will overlap the sable
field and become unidentifiable again.

3) Ariane Lancaster (Namron)
[Device] Conflicts now with Hieronymus Dernoma August 1976: "Gyronny argent
and sable, an estoile of seven points argent fimbriated sable."  Also see
July 2001 LoAR "Catalina de Navarra. Name and device. Purpure ermined, a sun
in splendor argent.  The device is in conflict with Hieronymus Dernoma,
Gyronny argent and sable, an estoile of seven points argent fimbriated
sable. There is a CD for the field, but nothing for this difference between
a seven-rayed estoile and a sun, and nothing for the removal of the
fimbriation."  Given that this is an appeal the submitter should be advised
of this and allowed a chance to withdraw it.

4) Ashlin Chrystal (Bjornsborg)
[Name] Ashlin: English given name. Bardsley, pg. 64, s.n. Aslin gives Ashlin
as a header and a baptismal name.  The Reaney & Wilson header is useless
unless you want a surname.
Chrystal: English surname. Black, Surnames of Scotland, page 151 gives it as
a header variant spelling of the surname.
The appeal maintains that there is no conflict with Aislynn Crystyn due to
Da'ud's April 1996 precendent.  Ashlin differs in pronounciation from
Aislynn.  Further evidence for this is given in the article below.  A search
of SCA registrations turns up December 1996 LoAR "Ashlin of Blackthorn Keep.
Name. Submitted as Aislinn of Blackthorn Keep we have replaced the Irish
spelling of Aislinn with the English spelling."  Ashlin of Limerick
registered September 1997 (via AEthelmearc).  This also lends evidence the
two forms of the name are considered different.  Chrystal and Crystyn also
differ in sound and the April 1996 precedent would apply to them as well.
Thus both names differ enough in sound to clear any conflict.
The other issue concerned Ashlin being a modern name.  There is evidence of
the women's name Ascelina and man's name Acelin from Reaney & Wilson, page
16 s.n. Aslin. Bardsley, pg. 64, s.n. Aslin gives the spelling as a surname
Jone Aslyn from 1557.  Meanwhile, the SCA seems to be registering this name.
  Given the conflicting evidence in Problem Names I would like to see a
precedent ruling on the acceptability of this name.
The entry under St Gabriel's Problem Names is quoted below.
    Concerning the Name Aislinn, Ashling, Eislinn, and the Like April 2000
http://www.MedievalScotland.org/problem/names/aislinn.shtml "The popular
modern Irish feminine name Aislinn, also spelled Aislynn, Aisling, Ashlynn,
Eislinn, etc., is widely believed to be a medieval Gaelic name. We have
found no evidence that this is so.  The earliest evidence we have of the
Gaelic feminine Aislinn is from 19th century Derry and Omeath. It is not
impossible that it was used earlier, but we have no evidence that it was
used as early as the 16th century [1]. The name may in fact be a modern
invention, the adoption as a name of the Gaelic word aisling "dream, a
vision" [1].  The similar masculine name Aislinge or Aislingthe appears once
in early Irish literature, but we have found no evidence that it was also
used by women [1, 2]. It isn't clear that the modern Aislinn is related to
it.  The development of the modern feminine Irish name may have been
influenced by derivatives of the medieval English masculine name, Acelin.
This name was popular in Norman England; its varied spellings included
Acelin 1273, Asselin 1273, and it spawned a feminine form Ascelina 1207. It
gave rise to a number of surnames, e.g. Ashlin, Asling [3]. However, we have
found no evidence that any form of this name was adopted into Gaelic before
or after 1600; the modern Gaelic feminine name apparently did not appear
until long after the English masculine dropped out of use.  In modern use,
the feminine Aislinn is often pronounced \ICE-lin\ or \ACE-lin\. These
pronunciations both result from reading a Gaelic spelling as if it were
English.  In Gaelic, the name is pronounced \AHSH-liñ\. The symbol \ñ\
represents the sound of ñ in Spanish words like señor or of gn in French
words like montagne.  [1] Ó Corráin, Donnchadh and Fidelma Maguire, Irish
Names (Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990), s.n. Aislinn.  [2] O'Brien, M. A.,
ed., Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae (Dublin: The Dublin Institute for
Advanced Studies, 1976).  [3] Withycombe, E.G., The Oxford Dictionary of
English Christian Names, 3rd ed. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1988),
s.n. Acelin."

5) Cadhla Uá Cellachán (Namron)
What happened to her device "Vert an orle of mushrooms argent"?
[Name] The byname needs to be Ceallacháin.
Cadhla - O Corrain & Maguire, Irish Names, page 40 header Cadlae gives this
as a man's name. Woulfe, Irish Names and Surnames, page 447 header O Cadhla
gives this family as formerly chiefs of Connemara and spelled O Kealy by
Elizabeth/James I time.  http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G105003/ Corpus
genealogiarum Hiberniae by Michael O'Brien, page 236 gives Cadla. This
document has names from the 11th and 12th century.
ua Cellachán - O Corrain & Maguire, Irish Names, page 49 header Cellachán
lists it as common in the 12th century and reappearing in the 16th century.
MacLysaght, The Surnames of Ireland, page 34 header Callaghan gives Ó
Ceallacháin from a king of Munster died 952. Woulfe, Irish Names and
Surnames, page 457 header Ó Ceallacháin gives that spelling for the king of
Munster.

6) Crinan mac Eoin (Rosenfeld)
[Name] Crínán - O Corrain & Maguire, page 62 s.n. Crínán dates the name to
1027.
[Device] Conflict with Owen of Carmarthen December 1989: "Per chevron vert
and sable, three dragons segreant Or."

7) Dunno Jameson (Bjornsborg)
[Name] Dunno: Old English given name from Searle, Onamasticon Anglo
Saxonicum, page 173 s.n. Dunno is a variation of Dunn dated 741, 855, 757,
Dunna dated 1070, 716.  I suppose one could mix Old English and Scots since
they some withing 200 years of each other.  This would be a wierdness unless
more documentation can be found on the name.

12) Kathleen MacLaughlen (Gate's Edge)
[Name] Kathleen is an English given name.  St. Gabriel 683 states
"<Kathleen> is an anglicized form of the Irish <Caitlín> and <Caitilín>,
which were in turn derived from the Old French <Cateline>, a nickname for
<Catherine>. The slash represents a sharp accent on the preceding vowel.
Both Irish names are pronounced roughly \KAHT-leen\, and both were in use in
Ireland from the 12th century onward."  This data is originally from
OCorrain & Maguire.
MacLaughlen would be Anglicized Gaelic and an inherited surname by the end
of period.
This name should be clear of Caitilin ni Lochlainn October 1980.  April 2001
LoAR "Siobhán inghean uí Dhomnaill. The question was raised in commentary
whether this name conflicts with Siobhan MacDonald, registered in 1985.
However, in September 1999 Elsbeth Ann Roth made a ruling which is relevant
here:  Mac “son of” and O “descendant (grandson) of/of clan” refer to
significantly different relationships and are therefore clear.  It seems
natural to apply this ruling to the corresponding feminine forms inghean and
inghean uí as well."

13) Magdalena de Medina y Polanco (Bonwicke)
[Name] Magdalena: 16th-century Spanish Women's Names by Kathy Van Stone is
found at http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~kvs/fnames.html
de Medina: Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century by Julia Smith
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/isabella/ gives de Medina.  Melcon,
Apellidos Castellano-Leoneses, page 245 gives Domingo Perez de Medina from
1217.
Polanco: Melcon, Apellidos Castellano-Leoneses, page 240 gives Pero Polanco
from 1237.  Page 323 lists it as a place-name.
A name of this form has been registered recently - Isabela Damiana Diez de
Medina y Sandoval March 1999.

14) Maria Cabeça de Vaca (Elfsea)
[Device] Blazon the rabbits courant rather than salient.

15) Marion Ruanadha (Elfsea)
[Name] Marion is Scots and English, so this is a mixed Gaelic name with
construction problems.  Marion Ronnay would be an English form of the name
for the 1500s.  Black, Surnames of Scotland, page 699 s.n. Ronnay, gives
James Ronnay 1528 from the Irish O'Ruanaidh.   Woulfe, Irish Names and
Surnames, page 637 s.n. O Ruanadha gives O Roney from the time of Elizabeth
I.  Muireann inghean uí Ruanadha would be the Irish Gaelic form for the
1300s.  Does the submitter know what form authentic Gaelic would take?  It
often surprises English speakers.  OCorrain & Maguire, page 141 s.n. Muirenn
gives Muireann as the post 1200 form.  This is the Gaelic form of Marion.
Woulfe, Irish Names and Surnames, page 637 s.n. O Ruanadha gives O'Ruanadha
from 1376.
[Device] Consider Catherine de Bellefleur August 1979 (via the East):
"Azure, semy of Silver-Bell flowers, a Large-Flowered Trillium flower, all
proper. [Halesia carolina, Trillium grandiflorium]" Trillium grandiflorium
and Halesia appear to be white.  Though some species of trilliums are
yellow, it looks like Trillium grandiflorium is white.  I wouldn't be very
sure about a trillium proper.  Silver bell (Halesia) flowers are
indistinguishable from seeblatter in a semy.  So we have nothing for the
field or the semy.  There may be a CD for tincture of the flower depending
on the trillium proper.  There may be a CD for type for trillium vs lily but
they are both considered trumpet shaped flowers in the Ordinary.  At best,
such a ruling on the difference between the two has never been made.  So, is
this a conflict?
This submission should be clear of Kay Delafleur August 1979: "Azure, a
single Easter Lily flower leaved and slipped proper, fimbriated or. [Lilium
longiflorum]"  An easter lily is white so there is a CD for change of
tincture for the lily and a CD for adding the semy of seeblatter.
Now I remember why I despise floral heraldry.

16) Yves de Byron (Mendersham)
[Name] Please note Morlet, Marie-Thérèse; Dictionnaire étymologique des Noms
de Famille; Perrin, 1997.  This book is not on the no photocopy list and
requires photocopies.  The name is fine for 13th century France or Norman
England.  In England the spelling would likely be Ives.

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